Traffic Cops running amok in Chiang Mai

[Awk]

I know of a guy here at the moment on holidays [one month] who rides a rented bike all over the city.

He has been stopped at least 4 times near Narrawat Bridge [where he stays, so cannot miss the regular blockade sadly]

On each occassion he is asked the usual questions and to then present his licence..he does so and is told that even on holiday he must have an IDL and that his Australian one is not accepted.

He then is told to go to the police station and pay, but because he has Astynomiaphobia.he wont go through the hoops involved and debate it,and just pays the cop 200baht and off he goes.

Not a big deal to him to pay, but he ,as far as i know is correct and legal in presenting his valid Aus licence.

Correct or not?

If correct they are indeed being naughty..

What on earth has given you that idea? Do you also think a Thai driving license will be correct and legal in Australia?

See here: http://www.thaivisa.com/thai-driving-license.html

[chiang mai]

I know of a guy here at the moment on holidays [one month] who rides a rented bike all over the city.

He has been stopped at least 4 times near Narrawat Bridge [where he stays, so cannot miss the regular blockade sadly]

On each occassion he is asked the usual questions and to then present his licence..he does so and is told that even on holiday he must have an IDL and that his Australian one is not accepted.

He then is told to go to the police station and pay, but because he has Astynomiaphobia.he wont go through the hoops involved and debate it,and just pays the cop 200baht and off he goes.

Not a big deal to him to pay, but he ,as far as i know is correct and legal in presenting his valid Aus licence.

Correct or not?

If correct they are indeed being naughty..

What on earth has given you that idea? Do you also think a Thai driving license will be correct and legal in Australia?

See here: http://www.thaivisa.com/thai-driving-license.html

Yes, a Thai license is valid for one year in the UK so why not?

[Globeman]

The average licensed citizen has the right and freedom to use the roads relatively unhindered, or for that matter, walk down the footpath unhindered, unless a police officer has some reason to suspect that person is breaking the law.

We believe this to be true in the USA. Our Constitution guarantees it. Could you please tell us where we can find the Thai equivalent of this guarantee? I'd like to think one exists, but I know I've never heard of it myself. A link would be sufficient, thanks.

Now, under martial law, (whether one agrees with it or not) the military government can deem anyone and everyone suspect, and instruct the police to check everyone in the hopes of catching "enemies of the state". In this case, it would appear that the police are not acting under instructions and are just profiteering from the current martial law situation,

Where can I find the instructions given to the police? I like to keep abreast of what is going on and am envious of your access to this sort of information. Personally, I don't really know just what the police have been told to do by either their police upper echelon or the military. I just know that they are being more careful when checking to see if drivers are in possession of the papers required by the vehicle codes. In this crack-down on corruption, perhaps the police are looking to stop corrupt drivers? It certainly is a valid interpretation of the term.

...and are just profiteering from the current martial law situation,

By 'profiteering,' do you mean penalizing people for violations of the vehicle regulations? Just as they were doing before the current martial law situation. For we've already heard from many that they never see folks giving money to the police on the streets except in very rare instances.

It strikes me that, at least in this thread, the ones complaining that the police are breaking the law have all been stopped by the police for breaking the law in the first place. If it's wrong for the police to break the law (and I agree that it is,) isn't it just as wrong for the drivers to break the law? Is one more wrong than the other? Some say that they are protesting laws that they believe to be unfair. Perhaps the police are protesting laws that THEY believe to be unfair. Or... are only farang permitted to do this?

Well ,the constitution has been torn up, so there are no rights and freedom guarantees of any kind at the moment... But much of the next constitution will be based on the last one (yes, just guessing, but it was always been done this way - no need to reinvent the wheel). There are provisions in past constitutions to the right to quiet enjoyment and there are stipulations as to due process in police matters. There is no great inside knowledge being claimed here on my part - you may have me confused with a barstool know-it-all with a bad case two years. I am, however too lazy to dig up a specific paragraph, but I have read the entire hefty document - in fact I had to edit one of the English translations for one of the newspapers here, so went over it in some detail. It was considered a punishment assignment. you can find the last constitution online - give it a scan. (By the way, you may find it interesting, or not, that according to the last two constitutions, double pricing is illegal discrimination on the basis of nationality - immigration and labour are exceptions. But it would have to be challenged in constitution court and proven to become everyday law. Nobody has bothered as yet.)

During crackdowns thus far in the military govt's administration, they have announced that they have instructed the police - or it is tacitly clear that they have, because the crackdown clearly involves police action. It's hard to miss, because lord knows there isn't much other news out there right now. But admittedly, since I work in news, I do sometimes get inside information, but none of what I wrote above is based on that. Also note that I wrote "it appears that the government has not instructed... etc." - that is an admission of speculation, not a claimed fact.

Regarding traffic policing though, it is often difficult NOT to break the law in minor ways - improper turns, etc., because everyone else is and to follow the letter of the law can actually be dangerous. One example is the rule that motorcycles have to stay in the left lane at all times, except when making a right turn. This is a ridiculous and outdated law created when small step through bikes were slow and hindered traffic. Now bikes are more than capable of staying with the flow at any speed.

In most countries, when a law gets to this point of obsolescence, the police just don't bother to enforce it anymore (and are often instructed by their superiors not to), because the behaviour isn't causing any problems. But in Thailand, they use it as an excuse to profiteer - yes, profiteer - by handing out unnecessary tickets or taking bribes (I believe there is a commission on traffic tickets if I am not mistaken), One of the techniques concerning the left lane law is for the police to block the left lane, which causes it to back up a considerable distance (way to manage traffic flow, boys), and the choice of the motorcyclist is to wait for ages or pull part way into the next lane and pass. The police are waiting to watch you cross the line - by even a foot - and it's too late, you're busted. I believe one calls this entrapment. The police created the very situation that induced the motorcyclist to break the (rather pointless) law. Yes, they broke the law, and are liable for a ticket (or a bribe), but come on, man. Admit that the traffic law enforcement here is great a big joke. It's true that two wrongs don't make a right, but I think most motorists would feel better about the situation if there wasn't a double standard in effect. Drivers get nailed for breaking the law. Cops don't.

[Awk]

What on earth has given you that idea? Do you also think a Thai driving license will be correct and legal in Australia?

See here: http://www.thaivisa.com/thai-driving-license.html

Yes, a Thai license is valid for one year in the UK so why not?

Wow. I had no idea about that. What you say appears to be confirmed by http://thailand.angloinfo.com/transport/driving-licences/, though the thaivisa-link I quoted seems to imply what you say is not correct.

I'm now curious as to which one is correct. Currently I am at work in Norway, listed as signee of the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic quoted on the angloinfo.com site. So I just called the DMV here, and according them, one can indeed use a Thai driver license here (for up to three months after entry into Norway), without any need for an additional IDP.

Very interesting, thank you. :-)

[heybruce]

Under the previous administration...people of Chiang Mai have had a free ride...while the rest of the country bought tea...now it is your time to join ranks with the rest of the nation...equality for all...

Let me see if I understand this. You are stating that under the PTP government the police in Chiang Mai were less corrupt than in the rest of Thailand, while under the military government they are equally corrupt. Is that correct?

I'm not sure that is correct. I'm also not sure whether you think this is a good or bad thing.

[spartacusfreethought]

I know of a guy here at the moment on holidays [one month] who rides a rented bike all over the city.

He has been stopped at least 4 times near Narrawat Bridge [where he stays, so cannot miss the regular blockade sadly]

On each occassion he is asked the usual questions and to then present his licence..he does so and is told that even on holiday he must have an IDL and that his Australian one is not accepted.

He then is told to go to the police station and pay, but because he has Astynomiaphobia.he wont go through the hoops involved and debate it,and just pays the cop 200baht and off he goes.

Not a big deal to him to pay, but he ,as far as i know is correct and legal in presenting his valid Aus licence.

Correct or not?

If correct they are indeed being naughty..

There is the Geneva road traffic convention of 1949 and the Vienna road traffic convention of 1968 that the US, Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand citizens can drive in Thailand. It states that these countries' citizens with a valid tourist visa can legally drive in Thailand with their respective home country driving licences.

However, many cops do not know this and demand either an IDL or a Thai licence.

[mccw]

All civilian laws are not suspended; surely that would be insane

Haha

I'd have thought martial law just gives the army the right to enforce the existing laws and add new ones as they see fit. Also they said they are working with the police assistance.

I think it's great the military are making the police do a bit more work than previously. Crack the whip. Wish there were more check points out side town to catch the drunks also.

Go home please.

Chiang Mai, Thailand, is my home.

Do love to drink drive then or what? You don't feel it's a waste of life seeing the kids brains splattered across the streets every few weeks or so?

I think you are the one who needs to grow up and learn some self responsibility.

[mccw]

I know of a guy here at the moment on holidays [one month] who rides a rented bike all over the city.

He has been stopped at least 4 times near Narrawat Bridge [where he stays, so cannot miss the regular blockade sadly]

On each occassion he is asked the usual questions and to then present his licence..he does so and is told that even on holiday he must have an IDL and that his Australian one is not accepted.

He then is told to go to the police station and pay, but because he has Astynomiaphobia.he wont go through the hoops involved and debate it,and just pays the cop 200baht and off he goes.

Not a big deal to him to pay, but he ,as far as i know is correct and legal in presenting his valid Aus licence.

Correct or not?

If correct they are indeed being naughty..

There is the Geneva road traffic convention of 1949 and the Vienna road traffic convention of 1968 that the US, Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand citizens can drive in Thailand. It states that these countries' citizens with a valid tourist visa can legally drive in Thailand with their respective home country driving licences.

However, many cops do not know this and demand either an IDL or a Thai licence.

When ever I get stopped I pull out my uk licence and say "international" in English. They always let carry on. Only time I have been fined was for parking which is fair enough. I reckon most people are getting busted for no helmet and just have the hump about it. As far as I have seen in 12 years the extortion thing is by and large a myth.

[FolkGuitar]

We believe this to be true in the USA. Our Constitution guarantees it. Could you please tell us where we can find the Thai equivalent of this guarantee? I'd like to think one exists, but I know I've never heard of it myself. A link would be sufficient, thanks.

Where can I find the instructions given to the police? I like to keep abreast of what is going on and am envious of your access to this sort of information. Personally, I don't really know just what the police have been told to do by either their police upper echelon or the military. I just know that they are being more careful when checking to see if drivers are in possession of the papers required by the vehicle codes. In this crack-down on corruption, perhaps the police are looking to stop corrupt drivers? It certainly is a valid interpretation of the term.

...and are just profiteering from the current martial law situation,

By 'profiteering,' do you mean penalizing people for violations of the vehicle regulations? Just as they were doing before the current martial law situation. For we've already heard from many that they never see folks giving money to the police on the streets except in very rare instances.

It strikes me that, at least in this thread, the ones complaining that the police are breaking the law have all been stopped by the police for breaking the law in the first place. If it's wrong for the police to break the law (and I agree that it is,) isn't it just as wrong for the drivers to break the law? Is one more wrong than the other? Some say that they are protesting laws that they believe to be unfair. Perhaps the police are protesting laws that THEY believe to be unfair. Or... are only farang permitted to do this?

Well ,the constitution has been torn up, so there are no rights and freedom guarantees of any kind at the moment... But much of the next constitution will be based on the last one (yes, just guessing, but it was always been done this way - no need to reinvent the wheel). There are provisions in past constitutions to the right to quiet enjoyment and there are stipulations as to due process in police matters. There is no great inside knowledge being claimed here on my part - you may have me confused with a barstool know-it-all with a bad case two years. I am, however too lazy to dig up a specific paragraph, but I have read the entire hefty document - in fact I had to edit one of the English translations for one of the newspapers here, so went over it in some detail. It was considered a punishment assignment. you can find the last constitution online - give it a scan. (By the way, you may find it interesting, or not, that according to the last two constitutions, double pricing is illegal discrimination on the basis of nationality - immigration and labour are exceptions. But it would have to be challenged in constitution court and proven to become everyday law. Nobody has bothered as yet.)

During crackdowns thus far in the military govt's administration, they have announced that they have instructed the police - or it is tacitly clear that they have, because the crackdown clearly involves police action. It's hard to miss, because lord knows there isn't much other news out there right now. But admittedly, since I work in news, I do sometimes get inside information, but none of what I wrote above is based on that. Also note that I wrote "it appears that the government has not instructed... etc." - that is an admission of speculation, not a claimed fact.

Regarding traffic policing though, it is often difficult NOT to break the law in minor ways - improper turns, etc., because everyone else is and to follow the letter of the law can actually be dangerous. One example is the rule that motorcycles have to stay in the left lane at all times, except when making a right turn. This is a ridiculous and outdated law created when small step through bikes were slow and hindered traffic. Now bikes are more than capable of staying with the flow at any speed.

In most countries, when a law gets to this point of obsolescence, the police just don't bother to enforce it anymore (and are often instructed by their superiors not to), because the behaviour isn't causing any problems. But in Thailand, they use it as an excuse to profiteer - yes, profiteer - by handing out unnecessary tickets or taking bribes (I believe there is a commission on traffic tickets if I am not mistaken), One of the techniques concerning the left lane law is for the police to block the left lane, which causes it to back up a considerable distance (way to manage traffic flow, boys), and the choice of the motorcyclist is to wait for ages or pull part way into the next lane and pass. The police are waiting to watch you cross the line - by even a foot - and it's too late, you're busted. I believe one calls this entrapment. The police created the very situation that induced the motorcyclist to break the (rather pointless) law. Yes, they broke the law, and are liable for a ticket (or a bribe), but come on, man. Admit that the traffic law enforcement here is great a big joke. It's true that two wrongs don't make a right, but I think most motorists would feel better about the situation if there wasn't a double standard in effect. Drivers get nailed for breaking the law. Cops don't.

Very well written! High marks for a typical media-style story, making everything sound so accurate.

But still no facts... Even you admit that it is conjecture on your part. You state that you work in 'news.' That should give you some sort of access to information that can be verified. You have not given one single citation for anything you wrote!

Your paragraph on the police technique of forcing motorbike riders to break the law is interesting. Just where is this being done? 'Cuz in 15 years living in the North I've never seen this happen even once. You'd think I would, as I ride a motorbike most every day... Is this more conjecture or just 'something' you heard about? Have any police ever asked you to pay 'tea money,' or is this too more 'well, it happened to a friend of mine?' They haven't asked me for any, nor do I know of anyone who has been asked.

Admit that the traffic law enforcement here is great a big joke. It's true that two wrongs don't make a right, but I think most motorists would feel better about the situation if there wasn't a double standard in effect. Drivers get nailed for breaking the law. Cops don't.

On this we can agree. Traffic law enforcement here needs an overhaul. But not because the police are breaking the laws, but rather, because the laws here have penalties that don't really penalize. Get caught driving without a license, registration, and proof of insurance in many US states and the cop takes your keys and you not only pay $150-$250, you walk home and can't pick up your car until you show your license. Do that three times and you get enough points on your license to loose it for 6 months. Go 10mph over the speed limit on a North American interstate for an hour or two and you WILL get stopped by a trooper (unless you have a radar detector, which is now illegal in many areas,) ticketed (assuming you have the required documents) and have to pay a very hefty fine. Here in Thailand that hefty fine might be $25. Yes, Traffic law enforcement here needs an overhaul.

We have people in this thread complaining about having to pay fines every day. That shouldn't happen. The fine should be large enough so the person thinks twice before breaking the law again after the first time. We see dozens of people being stopped by the police roadblocks for helmet violations, but then just driving off again... without a helmet. Is 200 baht really any incentive to wear a helmet? Sure doesn't look like it to me. It might be more money to a Thai than to a foreigner, but it's obviously not enough money to stop the violations. Yes, Traffic law enforcement here needs an overhaul.

We have people in this thread boasting that when they were caught driving falling-down drunk, the cop just brought them home. It's great the the cop was so worried about the safety of all the people who could have been injured by the drunk, but taking him to the drunk tank, fining him a substantial sum or yanking his license would go a lot further in seeing to it that the same situation isn't repeated. Yes, Traffic law enforcement here needs a serious overhaul.

Anyone on the roads every day sees the chalk marks... Lots of chalk marks. Chalk marks translate to damage, be it property or physical. Typically, in an accident, somebody (or some bodies) who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time when some idiot did something really stupid and usually in violation of the Traffic laws put a Major Hurt on them. That's just not right... Traffic law enforcement here needs an overhaul.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

We have people in this thread complaining about having to pay fines every day. That shouldn't happen. The fine should be large enough so the person thinks twice before breaking the law again after the first time. We see dozens of people being stopped by the police roadblocks for helmet violations, but then just driving off again... without a helmet. Is 200 baht really any incentive to wear a helmet? Sure doesn't look like it to me. It might be more money to a Thai than to a foreigner, but it's obviously not enough money to stop the violations. Yes, Traffic law enforcement here needs an overhaul.

Fines every day, impossible.

When you get a ticket, they take your license and 7 days to pay.

Show the ticket at any stop and they let you go, ticket is a "get off scott free" for 7 days.

PS

If you want traffic laws and police more like the USA, why not just go back there?

Sorry, but it just sounds like you don't fit in very well in Thailand.

Edited July 9, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[andreandre]

I know of a guy here at the moment on holidays [one month] who rides a rented bike all over the city.

He has been stopped at least 4 times near Narrawat Bridge [where he stays, so cannot miss the regular blockade sadly]

On each occassion he is asked the usual questions and to then present his licence..he does so and is told that even on holiday he must have an IDL and that his Australian one is not accepted.

He then is told to go to the police station and pay, but because he has Astynomiaphobia.he wont go through the hoops involved and debate it,and just pays the cop 200baht and off he goes.

Not a big deal to him to pay, but he ,as far as i know is correct and legal in presenting his valid Aus licence.

Correct or not?

If correct they are indeed being naughty..

What on earth has given you that idea? Do you also think a Thai driving license will be correct and legal in Australia?

See here: http://www.thaivisa.com/thai-driving-license.html

What on earth has given you that idea?

Just something i had heard before and turns out the info was 100% correct...

[Awk]

What on earth has given you that idea? Do you also think a Thai driving license will be correct and legal in Australia?

See here: http://www.thaivisa.com/thai-driving-license.html

What on earth has given you that idea?

Just something i had heard before and turns out the info was 100% correct...

Indeed. Sounded ridiculous to me, as I've seen what both the Thai driving test and a western-style driving test consists of, but as I later admitted, it does appear to be true. I will try to get my foot out of my mouth now.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Awk

[kingalfred]

Its Chiang Mai, enough said. Army should take control of the police operations in that den

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Have you ever visited Chiang Mai!

yes

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[FolkGuitar]

We have people in this thread complaining about having to pay fines every day. That shouldn't happen. The fine should be large enough so the person thinks twice before breaking the law again after the first time. We see dozens of people being stopped by the police roadblocks for helmet violations, but then just driving off again... without a helmet. Is 200 baht really any incentive to wear a helmet? Sure doesn't look like it to me. It might be more money to a Thai than to a foreigner, but it's obviously not enough money to stop the violations. Yes, Traffic law enforcement here needs an overhaul.

Fines every day, impossible.

When you get a ticket, they take your license and 7 days to pay.

Show the ticket at any stop and they let you go, ticket is a "get off scott free" for 7 days.

PS

If you want traffic laws and police more like the USA, why not just go back there?

Sorry, but it just sounds like you don't fit in very well in Thailand.

I quite agree that fines every day are impossible. But then, I'm not the one complaining that I was getting them... It was one of your team complaining about all the police roadblocks. And true that 'here' when you get a ticket for something, you can continue to break that law for 7 days. This is exactly what I mean when I say Traffic law enforcement here needs an overhaul. Thanks for pointing out specifics.

As for your PS, thanks but I prefer living in Thailand. I've managed to fit in very well during the past 15 years. Of course there are things I'd like to see improve, both in the USA and here, especially with Traffic law enforcement. Not everyone agrees with me, but then, not everyone matters.

Edited July 9, 2014 by FolkGuitar

[Globeman]

Very well written! High marks for a typical media-style story, making everything sound so accurate.

But still no facts... Even you admit that it is conjecture on your part. You state that you work in 'news.' That should give you some sort of access to information that can be verified. You have not given one single citation for anything you wrote!

Your paragraph on the police technique of forcing motorbike riders to break the law is interesting. Just where is this being done? 'Cuz in 15 years living in the North I've never seen this happen even once. You'd think I would, as I ride a motorbike most every day... Is this more conjecture or just 'something' you heard about? Have any police ever asked you to pay 'tea money,' or is this too more 'well, it happened to a friend of mine?' They haven't asked me for any, nor do I know of anyone who has been asked.

Thanks for the backhanded compliment there, Chet. "Typical media style"? Somehow I doubt you'd make that observation if I hadn't stated what I do for a living. But it's easy for you to pigeonhole me now. My postings don't resemble a typical journalistic style in any way, actually. Styles vary depending on the setting. This is my forum style. But thanks again for the "high marks". That means a lot coming from some schmo I don't even know.

It took long enough to write up my argument without hunting down a bibliography for your benefit. This is a casual forum, not an academic conference. You want to call bulls*** on me, go ahead if it makes you feel good, though I doubt it persuades most other forum members (this being total conjecture of course - call it a newsman's hunch)

I admit to conjecture where it is conjecture. I couldn't and wouldn't really bother to make up the rest of the stuff - why would I? What facts would you like to see exactly? By the way, the most commonly used media source is the Internet, which is also available to you. And when I refer to other "inside" sources, those are the ones we aren't allowed to cite, except to say, "a source close to the PM said," etc... and they have to be used carefully.

Now, though I doubt I can convince you that I don't live in some fantasy land populated with corrupt Thai police officers (oh, the absurdity of it!), the aforementioned "closing the lane" trick that you found so "interesting", I have been suckered in by four times this year - all in Bangkok. (Sorry, I don't generally think of "the North" as the benchmark for anything. My bad.) Two were on upper Sukhumvit in the Thonglor jurisdiction, one was on Rama III and one was on Sathorn Road. I have clocked them a couple of times on Sathorn since then, but have managed to turn into the Sukothai Hotel in time to avoid getting nabbed, then wait until a big scrum of vehicles is going past, join that and sail through. Sorry I don't remember the exact dates, but is that factual enough for you, or do you want photographs, HD video and an affidavit endorsed by the Bangkok governor? Perhaps a scan of the ticket receipts if I can find them? I could be making those up, after all.

More facts... I have been asked for bribes three times this year - unlike all the people you know. Two of them were on the Sukhumvit dragnets mentioned above and the one on Sathorn - all in the late morning, in case that means anything. The Sathorn incident was post-coup. All three times I refused and paid the more expensive ticket.

It does appear there is less in the way of demands for bribes now than in times past though. In the early to mid nineties, it was relentless. It seemed I couldn't go anywhere without getting hauled over - especially during payday week - and in those days the cops didn't always feel they had to catch you on a specific violation. Often they would just threaten to confiscate the bike if you didn't cough up. It was almost like a toll fee. Things seemed to simmer down a lot during the early Thaksin era. That one had me stumped, admittedly. Former copper tells his old boys they can't have any more whisky money. Since then it has been up and down, in my personal anecdotal experience. Sorry I can't quote official stats for you, but unfortunately, for some reason the police don't release them to the general public.

[chiang mai]

Its Chiang Mai, enough said. Army should take control of the police operations in that den

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Have you ever visited Chiang Mai!

yes

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Did you have a great weekend!

Edited July 9, 2014 by chiang mai

[mesquite]

Very well written! High marks for a typical media-style story, making everything sound so accurate.

But still no facts... Even you admit that it is conjecture on your part. You state that you work in 'news.' That should give you some sort of access to information that can be verified. You have not given one single citation for anything you wrote!

Your paragraph on the police technique of forcing motorbike riders to break the law is interesting. Just where is this being done? 'Cuz in 15 years living in the North I've never seen this happen even once. You'd think I would, as I ride a motorbike most every day... Is this more conjecture or just 'something' you heard about? Have any police ever asked you to pay 'tea money,' or is this too more 'well, it happened to a friend of mine?' They haven't asked me for any, nor do I know of anyone who has been asked.

Thanks for the backhanded compliment there, Chet. "Typical media style"? Somehow I doubt you'd make that observation if I hadn't stated what I do for a living. But it's easy for you to pigeonhole me now. My postings don't resemble a typical journalistic style in any way, actually. Styles vary depending on the setting. This is my forum style. But thanks again for the "high marks". That means a lot coming from some schmo I don't even know.

It took long enough to write up my argument without hunting down a bibliography for your benefit. This is a casual forum, not an academic conference. You want to call bulls*** on me, go ahead if it makes you feel good, though I doubt it persuades most other forum members (this being total conjecture of course - call it a newsman's hunch)

I admit to conjecture where it is conjecture. I couldn't and wouldn't really bother to make up the rest of the stuff - why would I? What facts would you like to see exactly? By the way, the most commonly used media source is the Internet, which is also available to you. And when I refer to other "inside" sources, those are the ones we aren't allowed to cite, except to say, "a source close to the PM said," etc... and they have to be used carefully.

Now, though I doubt I can convince you that I don't live in some fantasy land populated with corrupt Thai police officers (oh, the absurdity of it!), the aforementioned "closing the lane" trick that you found so "interesting", I have been suckered in by four times this year - all in Bangkok. (Sorry, I don't generally think of "the North" as the benchmark for anything. My bad.) Two were on upper Sukhumvit in the Thonglor jurisdiction, one was on Rama III and one was on Sathorn Road. I have clocked them a couple of times on Sathorn since then, but have managed to turn into the Sukothai Hotel in time to avoid getting nabbed, then wait until a big scrum of vehicles is going past, join that and sail through. Sorry I don't remember the exact dates, but is that factual enough for you, or do you want photographs, HD video and an affidavit endorsed by the Bangkok governor? Perhaps a scan of the ticket receipts if I can find them? I could be making those up, after all.

More facts... I have been asked for bribes three times this year - unlike all the people you know. Two of them were on the Sukhumvit dragnets mentioned above and the one on Sathorn - all in the late morning, in case that means anything. The Sathorn incident was post-coup. All three times I refused and paid the more expensive ticket.

It does appear there is less in the way of demands for bribes now than in times past though. In the early to mid nineties, it was relentless. It seemed I couldn't go anywhere without getting hauled over - especially during payday week - and in those days the cops didn't always feel they had to catch you on a specific violation. Often they would just threaten to confiscate the bike if you didn't cough up. It was almost like a toll fee. Things seemed to simmer down a lot during the early Thaksin era. That one had me stumped, admittedly. Former copper tells his old boys they can't have any more whisky money. Since then it has been up and down, in my personal anecdotal experience. Sorry I can't quote official stats for you, but unfortunately, for some reason the police don't release them to the general public.

Chet?

[FolkGuitar]

It took long enough to write up my argument without hunting down a bibliography

A simple citation would take little time and certainly carry more weight than anecdotes. There is no way to debate anecdotes. But it's been fun reading your stories, so I'll just say thanks.

[FolkGuitar]

Chet?

I guess he's heard me play? LOL! Or not!

[Globeman]

Chet?

I guess he's heard me play? LOL! Or not!

It was indeed intended as an ironic Atkins joke, yes.

[spidermike007]

You are lucky, they are hanging around the toll booths in Bangkok and telling you you were speeding after you pay the toll. I worked it out, while you pay the toll, a traffic cop on foot writes down your plate number on his clipboard and a speed he comes up with next to it, blocks you from getting much past the toll gate, shows his clipboard to you and points to your plate number and a photo-copy of something in Thai aside from the Bht 1,000 that is on it twice. Then asks for your license and says "camera, 7 days police station" "Or Bht 1,000 now" with his hand out.

My reply would be please lock me up, unless you can show me proof (a radar gun) that I was speeding. Otherwise I have your job officer, and you will have to answer to General Prayuth. Have you forgotten that I have his number and you are now answerable for all of your crimes? Things are different. There is a new sheriff in town. You are not going to purchase a new villa, or BMW with my money, so unless you have proof, lock me up now, you toad of a man. Or do the right thing and let me go, and then go out there and fight crime. Oh, I forgot you do not fight crime. You just collect money. Good job.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

When is the last time you heard of the Thai police kicking someone's ass for questioning a traffic violation? I think you confusing the Thai cops with the cops from South Africa during apartheid, or the Russian police. It is common for them to back down if given a hard time. Let us not forget they are not really enforcing any laws. They are just out to try to make some quick cash. They do not want a battle. Just an easy mark. It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Edited July 9, 2014 by spidermike007

[andreandre]

You are lucky, they are hanging around the toll booths in Bangkok and telling you you were speeding after you pay the toll. I worked it out, while you pay the toll, a traffic cop on foot writes down your plate number on his clipboard and a speed he comes up with next to it, blocks you from getting much past the toll gate, shows his clipboard to you and points to your plate number and a photo-copy of something in Thai aside from the Bht 1,000 that is on it twice. Then asks for your license and says "camera, 7 days police station" "Or Bht 1,000 now" with his hand out.

My reply would be please lock me up, unless you can show me proof (a radar gun) that I was speeding. Otherwise I have your job officer, and you will have to answer to General Prayuth. Have you forgotten that I have his number and you are now answerable for all of your crimes? Things are different. There is a new sheriff in town. You are not going to purchase a new villa, or BMW with my money, so unless you have proof, lock me up now, you toad of a man. Or do the right thing and let me go, and then go out there and fight crime. Oh, I forgot you do not fight crime. You just collect money. Good job.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

When is the last time you heard of the Thai police kicking someone's ass for questioning a traffic violation? I think you confusing the Thai cops with the cops from South Africa during apartheid, or the Russian police. It is common for them to back down if given a hard time. Let us not forget they are not really enforcing any laws. They are just out to try to make some quick cash. They do not want a battle. Just an easy mark. It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

You didn't answer the question....AGAIN..;Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

Edited July 10, 2014 by andreandre

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

It's possible to resist and still be polite and respectful.

Spiderman outfit?

or full back brace for jelly spine syndrome?

[spidermike007]

You are lucky, they are hanging around the toll booths in Bangkok and telling you you were speeding after you pay the toll. I worked it out, while you pay the toll, a traffic cop on foot writes down your plate number on his clipboard and a speed he comes up with next to it, blocks you from getting much past the toll gate, shows his clipboard to you and points to your plate number and a photo-copy of something in Thai aside from the Bht 1,000 that is on it twice. Then asks for your license and says "camera, 7 days police station" "Or Bht 1,000 now" with his hand out.

My reply would be please lock me up, unless you can show me proof (a radar gun) that I was speeding. Otherwise I have your job officer, and you will have to answer to General Prayuth. Have you forgotten that I have his number and you are now answerable for all of your crimes? Things are different. There is a new sheriff in town. You are not going to purchase a new villa, or BMW with my money, so unless you have proof, lock me up now, you toad of a man. Or do the right thing and let me go, and then go out there and fight crime. Oh, I forgot you do not fight crime. You just collect money. Good job.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

When is the last time you heard of the Thai police kicking someone's ass for questioning a traffic violation? I think you confusing the Thai cops with the cops from South Africa during apartheid, or the Russian police. It is common for them to back down if given a hard time. Let us not forget they are not really enforcing any laws. They are just out to try to make some quick cash. They do not want a battle. Just an easy mark. It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

You didn't answer the question....AGAIN..;Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

Really no need to be so cynical. Do you really consider the Thai cops to be that mighty and omnipotent? I am not suggesting a full takedown. LOL. I am suggesting a polite refusal. I have employed this tactic here with success. They do not like the pushback and will often wave you off. Again, they are looking for suckers and easy marks. You guys cannot seem to comprehend that concept.

Spidermike007

[andreandre]

You are lucky, they are hanging around the toll booths in Bangkok and telling you you were speeding after you pay the toll. I worked it out, while you pay the toll, a traffic cop on foot writes down your plate number on his clipboard and a speed he comes up with next to it, blocks you from getting much past the toll gate, shows his clipboard to you and points to your plate number and a photo-copy of something in Thai aside from the Bht 1,000 that is on it twice. Then asks for your license and says "camera, 7 days police station" "Or Bht 1,000 now" with his hand out.

My reply would be please lock me up, unless you can show me proof (a radar gun) that I was speeding. Otherwise I have your job officer, and you will have to answer to General Prayuth. Have you forgotten that I have his number and you are now answerable for all of your crimes? Things are different. There is a new sheriff in town. You are not going to purchase a new villa, or BMW with my money, so unless you have proof, lock me up now, you toad of a man. Or do the right thing and let me go, and then go out there and fight crime. Oh, I forgot you do not fight crime. You just collect money. Good job.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

When is the last time you heard of the Thai police kicking someone's ass for questioning a traffic violation? I think you confusing the Thai cops with the cops from South Africa during apartheid, or the Russian police. It is common for them to back down if given a hard time. Let us not forget they are not really enforcing any laws. They are just out to try to make some quick cash. They do not want a battle. Just an easy mark. It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

You didn't answer the question....AGAIN..;Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

Really no need to be so cynical. Do you really consider the Thai cops to be that mighty and omnipotent? I am not suggesting a full takedown. LOL. I am suggesting a polite refusal. I have employed this tactic here with success. They do not like the pushback and will often wave you off. Again, they are looking for suckers and easy marks. You guys cannot seem to comprehend that concept.

Spidermike007

I for one can comprehend the ''concept''.., but as i posted earlier:

Hope spiderman has a great lawyer available for the day [that will come for sure] that a cop retaliates to the mouth he's being given and take him away for a reality check..well overdue for one if you believe anything thats been posted here by him...

What you do or say you do is up to you 007 but the time will come when you will be posting after the above happens...and happen it will..sooner or later.

[limegreenpatato]

You are lucky, they are hanging around the toll booths in Bangkok and telling you you were speeding after you pay the toll. I worked it out, while you pay the toll, a traffic cop on foot writes down your plate number on his clipboard and a speed he comes up with next to it, blocks you from getting much past the toll gate, shows his clipboard to you and points to your plate number and a photo-copy of something in Thai aside from the Bht 1,000 that is on it twice. Then asks for your license and says "camera, 7 days police station" "Or Bht 1,000 now" with his hand out.

My reply would be please lock me up, unless you can show me proof (a radar gun) that I was speeding. Otherwise I have your job officer, and you will have to answer to General Prayuth. Have you forgotten that I have his number and you are now answerable for all of your crimes? Things are different. There is a new sheriff in town. You are not going to purchase a new villa, or BMW with my money, so unless you have proof, lock me up now, you toad of a man. Or do the right thing and let me go, and then go out there and fight crime. Oh, I forgot you do not fight crime. You just collect money. Good job.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

When is the last time you heard of the Thai police kicking someone's ass for questioning a traffic violation? I think you confusing the Thai cops with the cops from South Africa during apartheid, or the Russian police. It is common for them to back down if given a hard time. Let us not forget they are not really enforcing any laws. They are just out to try to make some quick cash. They do not want a battle. Just an easy mark. It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

You didn't answer the question....AGAIN..;Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

Really no need to be so cynical. Do you really consider the Thai cops to be that mighty and omnipotent? I am not suggesting a full takedown. LOL. I am suggesting a polite refusal. I have employed this tactic here with success. They do not like the pushback and will often wave you off. Again, they are looking for suckers and easy marks. You guys cannot seem to comprehend that concept.

Spidermike007

There's no use arguing with people here. Everyone thinks they know what they are talking about, but they actually don't know anything.

Most people are too scared to try what you say cause they don't realize the police here won't do anything without being paid.

[Jdiddy]

Thought of this thread today when going through the chang phueak stadium checkpoint, saw a guy on a motorbike do a quick u-turn as the police tried to pull him over, then on the otherside a girl on another motorbike casually turns up a side lane while another cop tries in vein to signal her to pull over

Bloody funny when you see the other police in the shade not giving a shit

Then I borrow a driver and pickup to help move house, he has an in car radio scanner tuned to the cop channels so he knows where they setup and what's going on

Love this place, I'd take paying the occasional bribe over having to deal with demerit points, expensive fines, speed and red light cameras and traffic police who have quotas anyday

[spidermike007]

You are lucky, they are hanging around the toll booths in Bangkok and telling you you were speeding after you pay the toll. I worked it out, while you pay the toll, a traffic cop on foot writes down your plate number on his clipboard and a speed he comes up with next to it, blocks you from getting much past the toll gate, shows his clipboard to you and points to your plate number and a photo-copy of something in Thai aside from the Bht 1,000 that is on it twice. Then asks for your license and says "camera, 7 days police station" "Or Bht 1,000 now" with his hand out.

My reply would be please lock me up, unless you can show me proof (a radar gun) that I was speeding. Otherwise I have your job officer, and you will have to answer to General Prayuth. Have you forgotten that I have his number and you are now answerable for all of your crimes? Things are different. There is a new sheriff in town. You are not going to purchase a new villa, or BMW with my money, so unless you have proof, lock me up now, you toad of a man. Or do the right thing and let me go, and then go out there and fight crime. Oh, I forgot you do not fight crime. You just collect money. Good job.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

When is the last time you heard of the Thai police kicking someone's ass for questioning a traffic violation? I think you confusing the Thai cops with the cops from South Africa during apartheid, or the Russian police. It is common for them to back down if given a hard time. Let us not forget they are not really enforcing any laws. They are just out to try to make some quick cash. They do not want a battle. Just an easy mark. It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

You didn't answer the question....AGAIN..;Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

Really no need to be so cynical. Do you really consider the Thai cops to be that mighty and omnipotent? I am not suggesting a full takedown. LOL. I am suggesting a polite refusal. I have employed this tactic here with success. They do not like the pushback and will often wave you off. Again, they are looking for suckers and easy marks. You guys cannot seem to comprehend that concept.

Spidermike007

I for one can comprehend the ''concept''.., but as i posted earlier:

Hope spiderman has a great lawyer available for the day [that will come for sure] that a cop retaliates to the mouth he's being given and take him away for a reality check..well overdue for one if you believe anything thats been posted here by him...

What you do or say you do is up to you 007 but the time will come when you will be posting after the above happens...and happen it will..sooner or later.

Are you trying out for comedy hour? Trying to get a spot on the comedy channel? That is really funny stuff. You seem to think I am encouraging some sort of police assault. I am talking about pushing back, and fighting the rampant police corruption. I am not referring to the police reacting to an actual traffic violation. I am talking about the made up crap. The fund raising crap. I would think they would almost expect some of us to stand up to the police robbery nonsense. And you do not think so? What do you do, just stand there and say, officer how much would you like today? I would be thrilled to make a donation to your enrichment fund. Not my approach. Sorry if my bravado offends you guys. Police committing robbery offends me.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Edited July 10, 2014 by spidermike007

[andreandre]

You are lucky, they are hanging around the toll booths in Bangkok and telling you you were speeding after you pay the toll. I worked it out, while you pay the toll, a traffic cop on foot writes down your plate number on his clipboard and a speed he comes up with next to it, blocks you from getting much past the toll gate, shows his clipboard to you and points to your plate number and a photo-copy of something in Thai aside from the Bht 1,000 that is on it twice. Then asks for your license and says "camera, 7 days police station" "Or Bht 1,000 now" with his hand out.

My reply would be please lock me up, unless you can show me proof (a radar gun) that I was speeding. Otherwise I have your job officer, and you will have to answer to General Prayuth. Have you forgotten that I have his number and you are now answerable for all of your crimes? Things are different. There is a new sheriff in town. You are not going to purchase a new villa, or BMW with my money, so unless you have proof, lock me up now, you toad of a man. Or do the right thing and let me go, and then go out there and fight crime. Oh, I forgot you do not fight crime. You just collect money. Good job.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

When is the last time you heard of the Thai police kicking someone's ass for questioning a traffic violation? I think you confusing the Thai cops with the cops from South Africa during apartheid, or the Russian police. It is common for them to back down if given a hard time. Let us not forget they are not really enforcing any laws. They are just out to try to make some quick cash. They do not want a battle. Just an easy mark. It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

It is our responsibility to give them a hard time.

You didn't answer the question....AGAIN..;Will you be wearing your spider-man costume when you lay in bed dreaming you say that?

Really no need to be so cynical. Do you really consider the Thai cops to be that mighty and omnipotent? I am not suggesting a full takedown. LOL. I am suggesting a polite refusal. I have employed this tactic here with success. They do not like the pushback and will often wave you off. Again, they are looking for suckers and easy marks. You guys cannot seem to comprehend that concept.

Spidermike007

I for one can comprehend the ''concept''.., but as i posted earlier:

Hope spiderman has a great lawyer available for the day [that will come for sure] that a cop retaliates to the mouth he's being given and take him away for a reality check..well overdue for one if you believe anything thats been posted here by him...

What you do or say you do is up to you 007 but the time will come when you will be posting after the above happens...and happen it will..sooner or later.

Are you trying out for comedy hour? Trying to get a spot on the comedy channel? That is really funny stuff. You seem to think I am encouraging some sort of police assault. I am talking about pushing back, and fighting the rampant police corruption. I am not referring to the police reacting to an actual traffic violation. I am talking about the made up crap. The fund raising crap. I would think they would almost expect some of us to stand up to the police robbery nonsense. And you do not think so? What do you do, just stand there and say, officer how much would you like today? I would be thrilled to make a donation to your enrichment fund. Not my approach. Sorry if my bravado offends you guys. Police committing robbery offends me.

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[FolkGuitar]

. I am not referring to the police reacting to an actual traffic violation. I am talking about the made up crap. The fund raising crap. I would think they would almost expect some of us to stand up to the police robbery nonsense.

Are you saying that you have been victimized by police stopping you and charging you for violations that didn't exist?

Demanding money from you at the scene for, as you put it, 'made up crap?' And you have been making the police back down?

Instead of arguing with the police officer, why didn't you file a formal complaint? Take it to the courts. If it's happening to you, it must be happening to lots of people, so a class action suit would be an effective tool against what you are calling 'police robbery nonsense.' While it would just be your word against the cop, if there are many people saying the same thing the courts will listen. If.

Edited July 10, 2014 by FolkGuitar