That 'Oh no!' moment in a corner

[macknife]

So I guess we've all been there. You know, that moment in a corner when you realize you're a bit too fast. Do you feather your brakes? Front, rear or both? Do you lean more? or do you bring the bike up straight and hit the brakes? Pray?

I'm a relatively new rider so I would like to hear from some of you more experienced guys about what to do in the 'oh no! moment. Yes I've seen all the videos about how to ride corners and what lines etc but what do you do when it doesn't work out quite the way you planned?

I'm thinking road use here only, some of these pearls of wisdom could save one of our lives some day, including mine.

[NomadJoe]

Well I would say if there is a safe run out then I would right the bike and go off road. Usually I just lean it into the corner a bit harder than planned, but that's why we always leave a little extra. Almost never is there a situation in which braking in a corner is a good idea, definitely not with the front wheel.

One term that should always be in your head in the twisties is "coefficient of friction." In a corner your coefficient of friction should never reach zero. Visualize the contact patch (the portion of your tire that contacts the ground) and how close you are to losing traction either from lateral force (turning) or braking. This is why you should always avoid braking while turning. "Straight line braking" is another term you should be familiar with. Turning while braking is what gets the tourists, because that is what they do with their cars, though you really shouldn't with a car either, but 99% of automobile drivers don't really know how to drive well enough to have the presence of mind to do that. As a motorcyclist you must.

Edited July 8, 2014 by NomadJoe

[Spoonman]

Yeah I'll lean it in a bit more rather than heading offroad.

[macknife]

Well I would say if there is a safe run out then I would right the bike and go off road. Usually I just lean it into the corner a bit harder than planned, but that's why we always leave a little extra. Almost never is there a situation in which braking in a corner is a good idea, definitely not with the front wheel.

One term that should always be in your head in the twisties is "coefficient of friction." In a corner your coefficient of friction should never reach zero. Visualize the contact patch (the portion of your tire that contacts the ground) and how close you are to losing traction either from lateral force (turning) or braking. This is why you should always avoid braking while turning. "Straight line braking" is another term you should be familiar with. Turning while braking is what gets the tourists, because that is what they do with their cars, though you really shouldn't with a car either, but 99% of automobile drivers don't really know how to drive well enough to have the presence of mind to do that. As a motorcyclist you must.

I've always known braking in a corner is a big no no, especially the front brake. I have found tapping the rear brake helps though, or was that just my imagination?

You say visualize the contact patch and how close you are to losing traction, but how does one know the point at which they will lose traction and the bike goes down and you follow it sliding down the road?

[NomadJoe]

Well I would say if there is a safe run out then I would right the bike and go off road. Usually I just lean it into the corner a bit harder than planned, but that's why we always leave a little extra. Almost never is there a situation in which braking in a corner is a good idea, definitely not with the front wheel.

One term that should always be in your head in the twisties is "coefficient of friction." In a corner your coefficient of friction should never reach zero. Visualize the contact patch (the portion of your tire that contacts the ground) and how close you are to losing traction either from lateral force (turning) or braking. This is why you should always avoid braking while turning. "Straight line braking" is another term you should be familiar with. Turning while braking is what gets the tourists, because that is what they do with their cars, though you really shouldn't with a car either, but 99% of automobile drivers don't really know how to drive well enough to have the presence of mind to do that. As a motorcyclist you must.

I've always known braking in a corner is a big no no, especially the front brake. I have found tapping the rear brake helps though, or was that just my imagination?

You say visualize the contact patch and how close you are to losing traction, but how does one know the point at which they will lose traction and the bike goes down and you follow it sliding down the road?

I touch the rear brake in corner at times if I feel like I have some limit left my the COF. Knowing when your COF is reaching zero comes with practice. Every rider has moments when they feel their COF reaching zero, but manage to recover.

Here is a pretty good video on how to avoid the "Oh no!" moment. Limit Points.

[NomadJoe]

Yeah I'll lean it in a bit more rather than heading offroad.

But sometimes you may feel like that's not possible. I had my friend, a veteran rider, run off in front of me on his R1 in Krabi once. A few scratches but he kept the rubber side down somehow. He said that he felt if he had leaned into the decreasing radius corner, (another good term to be come intimately familiar with) which he admitted he entered a bit hot, he would have had a low side and went right into an oncoming car. Instead he skirted across in front of the car into some brush. Another time, I completely missed a corner at night in the rain and by the grace of God my run out was someones gravel driveway. Not high speed but that was a learning moment.

[Overandout]

Well I would say if there is a safe run out then I would right the bike and go off road. Usually I just lean it into the corner a bit harder than planned, but that's why we always leave a little extra. Almost never is there a situation in which braking in a corner is a good idea, definitely not with the front wheel.

One term that should always be in your head in the twisties is "coefficient of friction." In a corner your coefficient of friction should never reach zero. Visualize the contact patch (the portion of your tire that contacts the ground) and how close you are to losing traction either from lateral force (turning) or braking. This is why you should always avoid braking while turning. "Straight line braking" is another term you should be familiar with. Turning while braking is what gets the tourists, because that is what they do with their cars, though you really shouldn't with a car either, but 99% of automobile drivers don't really know how to drive well enough to have the presence of mind to do that. As a motorcyclist you must.

I've always known braking in a corner is a big no no, especially the front brake. I have found tapping the rear brake helps though, or was that just my imagination?

You say visualize the contact patch and how close you are to losing traction, but how does one know the point at which they will lose traction and the bike goes down and you follow it sliding down the road?

Tapping the rear does help to tighten the line a little and can be done without throttling off which means that you are not upsetting the suspension as much as either grabbing the front brake or slamming the gas shut.

It is no coincindence that Nicky Hayden uses a huge rear disc copmarde to most other GP riders for this is his preferred method of scrubbing off corner speed. When I used to ride (too) fast on the road I always used this method.

BUT (and its a big but) if you are leaned over a long way your contact patch is small and stabbing the back brake can lock the wheel up and you really don't want that to happen.

I have in the past purposely allowed a bit of air into my rear btake lines so that I could jab the pedal as hard as I liked without locking the rear. It works, but I really don't want to be seen to be recommending this so don't do it, it's a really bad idea....

To answer your question about traction, a good well profiled sports tyre will tell you when you get to the edge because it will feel like you are trying to tip it over the edge of a knife. A non-sporting touring tyre may well not be so well profiled and give less warning.

I used to use Pirelli MP7 tyres on my RGV 250 an that came to a noticeable stop at the edge of the tyre and you could see form the wear what was happening, But later I put some Michelin Macadams on it to go to Assen on the motorway and they almost killed me becasue there was no "edge" to be felt, the profile an grip just gradually disappeared....

Edited July 8, 2014 by Overandout

[AllanB]

I read (actually Youtube) that you should focus on where you want to go and not where you fear you will go, as you will generally go where you are looking.

Never been that close to the limit myself, when a bend has proved tighter than expected, I have always had the option of slowing down, as I always expect the worst on Thai roads. Early days.....

[shaggy1969]

Macknife

My advice would be to learn about your bike.Don't just ride it,You need to learn to feel it like a second skin.

The technical terms stated in the posts above (all true and nicely worded I may add) won't mean a damn thing when you are in the 'moment'.

Everything comes from instinct and experience,knowing when to lean more,try and stand her up and brake hard,running off or even dropping it and bailing.

On any road in the world when you are on a motorbike you need to own your own space on the road,if it is an unfamiliar road then take it easy until you

have gained more experience and feeling for your ride.

Also have respect for the road in Thailand because it is not just going to be a under estimated corner that is going to give you problems,Poor road surfaces (loose surface,animals,snakes,slow moving farm vehicles even elephants could be waiting for you on your exit out off the corner.

Know your bike........know your limits.......stay safe,but most of all enjoy what you are doing .

[ttakata]

I would buy the best street tires possible first, then go to a racetrack and learn what the bike can do.

I had those old Battlax BT02 multi compound tires and they allowed me to feather the front brakes leaned over on a racetrack.

My focus was to have smooth braking.

I'm really not qualified to comment on riding technique but just want to remind people that public roads are not a place to be pushing the boundaries of speed.

My friend was in nowhere Laos on a random dirt farm road and he ran head on into a scooter around a bend.

Both riders assumed they were all alone on a remote road so they were going too fast.

Another friend split a monitor lizard in two because evasion at speed would have made him crash.

He was upright in a straight line but had he been leaned over...

[RubberSideDown]

Most of those 'a bit too fast' moments are your perception rather than reality- by that I mean the bike is capable of taking a turn your skills might not be up to the task of taking. So many of the YouTube videos show guys getting in hotter than they planned, standing on the brakes and running wide, and target-fixating on a point and ending up in a ditch or in front of a car in the opposite lane

If you're not scraping hard parts, you've got some lean-angle left- use it and focus on the exit point of the turn. Hitting your brakes in panic won't help (trail-braking is a different story)- keep your cool, look where you need to go instead of fixating somewhere else, and don't chop the throttle. Most of the time you'll safely ride it out.

Practice your skills- when I screw up a turn, I turn around and take it a couple more times to see what I did wrong and learn from my mistakes- this helps a lot with figuring things out in future potentially hazardous situations.

[ATF]

A lot depends on what type of bike you have. Harleys, scooters, upright street bikes and race type bikes are all going to corner differently so it would be good to know which bike you are riding although the main principles are the same.

Anticipation is the most important, set yourself up for the corner by initiating the lean well before entering and then the bike will automatically be poised to follow the corner. It's important to learn to trust the bike and not hold on too tightly with your hands just steer. Remember countersteering is your friend.

If you are too hot it's important to know the stopping capabilities of your bike. If you know you can't stop the best you can do is give a full countersteer and roll on the throttle. Feathering the rear brake can help but hard front braking may bring the rear around.

Get some track time and sticky tires. We've all been there.

[macknife]

Most of those 'a bit too fast' moments are your perception rather than reality- by that I mean the bike is capable of taking a turn your skills might not be up to the task of taking. So many of the YouTube videos show guys getting in hotter than they planned, standing on the brakes and running wide, and target-fixating on a point and ending up in a ditch or in front of a car in the opposite lane

If you're not scraping hard parts, you've got some lean-angle left- use it and focus on the exit point of the turn. Hitting your brakes in panic won't help (trail-braking is a different story)- keep your cool, look where you need to go instead of fixating somewhere else, and don't chop the throttle. Most of the time you'll safely ride it out.

Practice your skills- when I screw up a turn, I turn around and take it a couple more times to see what I did wrong and learn from my mistakes- this helps a lot with figuring things out in future potentially hazardous situations.

So, if you're going too fast, you say don't chop the throttle, so what should one do then? Do you ease off the throttle to bring the speed down and lean? or lean over (Counter steer) and gradually give it more throttle? or keep it the same speed?

As some have asked, I ride a baby Ninja. 6 years riding regularly in Thailand but I've had no formal training. I've had a few scary moments but have managed not to crash in a corner yet. I guess I have little confidence in the standard tyres. I've seen many people give advice on what to do etc but rarely have I seen people give advice on what to do when shit happens, hence this thread.

[mania]

Most of those 'a bit too fast' moments are your perception rather than reality- by that I mean the bike is capable of taking a turn your skills might not be up to the task of taking. So many of the YouTube videos show guys getting in hotter than they planned, standing on the brakes and running wide, and target-fixating on a point and ending up in a ditch or in front of a car in the opposite lane

If you're not scraping hard parts, you've got some lean-angle left- use it and focus on the exit point of the turn. Hitting your brakes in panic won't help (trail-braking is a different story)- keep your cool, look where you need to go instead of fixating somewhere else, and don't chop the throttle. Most of the time you'll safely ride it out.

Practice your skills- when I screw up a turn, I turn around and take it a couple more times to see what I did wrong and learn from my mistakes- this helps a lot with figuring things out in future potentially hazardous situations.

So, if you're going too fast, you say don't chop the throttle, so what should one do then? Do you ease off the throttle to bring the speed down and lean? or lean over (Counter steer) and gradually give it more throttle? or keep it the same speed?

As some have asked, I ride a baby Ninja. 6 years riding regularly in Thailand but I've had no formal training. I've had a few scary moments but have managed not to crash in a corner yet. I guess I have little confidence in the standard tyres. I've seen many people give advice on what to do etc but rarely have I seen people give advice on what to do when shit happens, hence this thread.

What RSD said +1

The big thing to realize is more than likely it is your perception or where you have your attention fixated

There is no time to adjust so all the things you just asked about throttle etc is already in play.

The one thing that is out of sync is your focus/attention

Your likely fixating on a spot too close in the turn.

Which is how the whole problem started

You need to force yourself to look where you want to go not where you do not want to go.

Your moving along so you need to be ahead of things.

It is not easy during a panic of course but you must do it.

Of course if it is a small adjustment you can choose throttle or small amount of braking correction but

more than likely your already not heavy on throttle/brakes & your bike is settled for the corner

Again IMO what has happened is your attention is on a spot too close & now your brain has panicked

into thinking your not going to make it. Folks who go this route usually want to opt out

by chopping throttle slamming brakes, standing up bike etc.

It works sometimes but usually results in going just where they did not want to since their attention has been

locked there since the start of the problem.

Mac try this on your next ride....Evey turn you come to look as far thru it as you can & keep your attention there

forget the rest & see if you do not instantly feel better

Remind yourself a few times during your ride.... Try it

Edited July 9, 2014 by mania

[ll2]

trail braking for tightening your line. you have to master it nicely. I pull the brake lever a little before the corner - not for slowing, just for reaching to the point of bite faster - so it is easier to modulate.

best way though is braking before a corner to a safer speed especially on unfamiliar roads. No need for a bad hospital adventure really just bc you want to get the corner 30 km faster!

still, if you enter a corner very hot, first rules is: "just dont panic!" and leaning as much as you can. Most of the accidents happen on corners is just bc of panicked riders applying the brakes hard.

no panic is the key, keep your senses up and lean! focus on the safe exit still check the road surface, opposite side of the road and where you dont want to go for milliseconds too. it is not only looking where you want to go. you need to be aware if there are some dirt on the corner, road irregularities, where the road ends, radius of the corner and if there are other cars coming from the opposite direction. you have to know all these so key is focusing on where you want to go but also being aware of your surrounding and where you dont want to go as well.

of course a track day helps a lot regarding the dynamics of cornering and if things go wrong, you can crash safely.

[RubberSideDown]

^^^

You need to read 'A Twist of the Wrist II'- watch the video, but definitely order the book from Amazon or wherever. It will pound the following rule into your head:

"Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn."

Chopping the throttle or hitting the brakes when you're too hot in a turn will cause you to run wide (or high side if you go on-and-off the rear and lock it up and then regain traction)- this isn't necessarily a problem (running wide, I mean- a high side is always a problem;)) depending on conditions and obviously speed is the major factor, but there are times when it will mean the difference between crashing and saving it.

If you're in hotter than you expected and there's lean angle left, you should increase your lean before hitting the brakes or chopping the throttle if it will let you maintain your proper line- you should also continue to feed in throttle just like with any other turn (this doesn't mean WFO, but slightly cracked on to hold your line). If you're in so absolutely hot that there's no saving it, all you can do is hope to scrub off some speed and look for a good place to land- like I said, though, the bike (provided it's a sportbike) can probably handle it unless you do something completely idiotic.

Seriously, order the Code book, and Nick Ienatsch's book- Lee Parks has a good book out as well. If you don't have the opportunity for personal instruction, you can learn some things from other media.

Edited July 9, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[VocalNeal]

I read (actually Youtube) that you should focus on where you want to go and not where you fear you will go, as you will generally go where you are looking.

Yes always look where you want to go.

what to do is difficult but depends a lot on the road surface. On a clean smooth road and assuming you've already backed off the throttle because you have just had that Oh No! moment just look where you want to go and lean into the corner. If you ride like me the bike has way more capability than I do! So chances are the bike has more capability than you.

Loose surface or gravel point straight and pray.

[ATF]

Sounds like cornering isn't really your problem. You want to go around corners FAST!

Don't try to corner fast on unfamiliar roads.

You need really sticky tires like Supercorsas which will give you extra lean angle, grip your tank with your knees and slowly build up speed until you get more confident.

Your bike should feel like it's on rails going around a corner if it doesn't you're doing something wrong.

Trackday. Trackday. Trackday. See you at Bira end of August!

[ll2]

^^^

You need to read 'A Twist of the Wrist II'- watch the video, but definitely order the book from Amazon or wherever. It will pound the following rule into your head:

"Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn."

Chopping the throttle or hitting the brakes when you're too hot in a turn will cause you to run wide (or high side if you go on-and-off the rear and lock it up and then regain traction)- this isn't necessarily a problem (running wide, I mean- a high side is always a problem;)) depending on conditions and obviously speed is the major factor, but there are times when it will mean the difference between crashing and saving it.

If you're in hotter than you expected and there's lean angle left, you should increase your lean before hitting the brakes or chopping the throttle if it will let you maintain your proper line- you should also continue to feed in throttle just like with any other turn (this doesn't mean WFO, but slightly cracked on to hold your line). If you're in so absolutely hot that there's no saving it, all you can do is hope to scrub off some speed and look for a good place to land- like I said, though, the bike (provided it's a sportbike) can probably handle it unless you do something completely idiotic.

Seriously, order the Code book, and Nick Ienatsch's book- Lee Parks has a good book out as well. If you don't have the opportunity for personal instruction, you can learn some things from other media.

are you talking to me RSD?

as i did not say anything about throttle. i am sure we all know, we do not chop the throttle in a corner or apply brakes and actually we need to give some throttle smoothly during the turn to transfer the weight to the back.

[RubberSideDown]

A lot of sport-riding is training yourself to do things that are counter-intuitive- continuing to apply the throttle and staying off the brakes is difficult when your brain is screaming, 'Slow down!!!' You need to overcome certain 'survival reactions' (another big part of Keith Code's training methods) that will help you in many situations but NOT getting too hot into a corner (where you have to put your fear aside and do the right thing).

I will literally yell at myself to stay on it and not go off the gas in some turns.

[RubberSideDown]

^^^

You need to read 'A Twist of the Wrist II'- watch the video, but definitely order the book from Amazon or wherever. It will pound the following rule into your head:

"Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn."

Chopping the throttle or hitting the brakes when you're too hot in a turn will cause you to run wide (or high side if you go on-and-off the rear and lock it up and then regain traction)- this isn't necessarily a problem (running wide, I mean- a high side is always a problem;)) depending on conditions and obviously speed is the major factor, but there are times when it will mean the difference between crashing and saving it.

If you're in hotter than you expected and there's lean angle left, you should increase your lean before hitting the brakes or chopping the throttle if it will let you maintain your proper line- you should also continue to feed in throttle just like with any other turn (this doesn't mean WFO, but slightly cracked on to hold your line). If you're in so absolutely hot that there's no saving it, all you can do is hope to scrub off some speed and look for a good place to land- like I said, though, the bike (provided it's a sportbike) can probably handle it unless you do something completely idiotic.

Seriously, order the Code book, and Nick Ienatsch's book- Lee Parks has a good book out as well. If you don't have the opportunity for personal instruction, you can learn some things from other media.

are you talking to me RSD?

as i did not say anything about throttle. i am sure we all know, we do not chop the throttle in a corner or apply brakes and actually we need to give some throttle smoothly during the turn to transfer the weight to the back.

Three arrows up, buddy- it was directed at macknife- after all your track days, I would imagine you know the rules.

[VocalNeal]

This one caused me soiled underwear once when I was ridding with group of Superbikes and I was the last man. Sorry can't figure out how to copy Google map street view links and can't even paste info from Google Maps here anyway.

To circumvent this 14.119439°100.994676° paste into google maps and drag the little street view man over it.

The problem with this corner is that it comes after some long straight stretches.

Edited July 9, 2014 by VocalNeal

[Eliot Rosewater]

Don't freak out; apply rear brake and build pressure on front brake until stopped:)

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ATF]

Don't freak out; apply rear brake and build pressure on front brake until stopped:)

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yes Eliot I'm sure this works when you're cornering at 150Kph.

[Overandout]

Sometimes you can just get "lucky". (This is anecdotal, but relevant to the topic!)

My first "corner incident" was at night on an unlit road, which I was not familiar with while riding my RXS 100 ) with a very poor headlight.

I only realised that there was a 90º left hand bend coming up when I was already into it, so the looking ahead part was already kind of redundant...

I hit the brakes, the bike stood up and carried on across the road towards the mid point of the outside radius of the curve.

Luckily for me, I had already got the bike turned through about 25 - 30 º and a farmer had thoughtfully put a steel 5 bar gate to one of his fields at 45º, kind of like an armco barrier.

I saw the gate just in timeand removed my hand from the right handlebar as the side of the bike made contact with the gate, the combined angle of the gate and the turn that I had manged to achieve before contact made the impact a glancing blow, at 15 - 20º. The contact with the gate was momentary, the bike came off the gate pointing roughly towards the exit of the corner, so I gather my composure, throttle back on and carried on down the road (almost) as if nothing had happened...

Note to other forum users: Don't rely on bouncing off steel gates to get round corners.

[VocalNeal]

OK sussed it. It is my browser. Here is my Oh No corner.

http://goo.gl/maps/wfJsw

[Familyonthemove]

Yep - I'm sure we've all been there. I'm with Rubbersidedown on this one ..... your bike will have lots of cornering capability left and it's just a case of confidence running out before grip.

I think we need to keep things simple as we're talking what to do when panic is about set in ...... so just look where you want to go and LEAN!

99 times out of 100 the bike will get you round.

The 'heading off road' option can be risky - as even if there's a nice soft run-off - 50% of the time you'll need to cross the next lane to get off road and they may be a truck coming the other way.

[dave_boo]

Another voice for the "trust the bike". Every time I've come off, it's been my own lack of experience and non-faith in the bike doing what it was designed to do.

Out of high school we used to have friendly races at night in cars. My weapon of choice was the E30 325. Easiest way to get around a corner quickly was letting off the throttle, preloading the steering tyres, turning in, and then getting back on the throttle. It was the hardest thing for me to carry that over to motorcycles as, with my hefty weight, the front forks compressed way more than I was comfortable with.

However, combined with that little thing I did before-where now I usually just brush the rear brake to load the front-I also look further down the corner. I am trying to utilise more of my lane as well; a bike has a lot more latitude to setup for a gentler corner (i.e. it doesn't need to be taken as sharply) than a car due to being able to start off on the far side of the lane and apexing across the width of the lane.

Oh, and actually moving about on the seat as required, rather than staying strapped in with belts is a good idea.

I am still not a 'good' rider, but those few small things have made me better.

[Overandout]

My weapon of choice was the E30 325.

Good choice, see my avatar !

That particular example is tucked up in a warehouse in Madrid awaiting my return one day.....

[NomadJoe]

I read (actually Youtube) that you should focus on where you want to go and not where you fear you will go, as you will generally go where you are looking.

Never been that close to the limit myself, when a bend has proved tighter than expected, I have always had the option of slowing down, as I always expect the worst on Thai roads. Early days.....

This is true in most situations, but it's one of those things that you really need to amend a bit to fit Thai riding. The road surface here is so variable that you really need to give a bit of attention to the quality of the road surface just in front of you. This is normally a no-no, but in Thailand you really need to watch for light color (sand) or dark (water, oil, syrupy mystery discharge having leaked from garbage trucks the consistency of snot) pot holes and ripples in the road caused by over-weighted trucks or poor asphalt quality. Even a smashed aluminum can will put you down quickly in a corner or while braking. One of the reasons I always leave a little extra in terms of both speed and space on the outside of my turn is in case I have to momentarily right myself to travel across such objects or fluids. Happens often.