Newbie With Age Old Question

[kenkannif]

Sorry mate not too keen on people posting LIES about me on here and putting words into my mouth

[Ijustwannateach]

Me, either. But a reaction is what he wants. Hang tight, mate, no one's taking him seriously.

[percy2]

Remarkable thread.

Almost reminds me of Zidane in the final.

[kenkannif]

How so?

[Wolfie]

please move on and dont dwell on this... our friend Ladphrao wont be bothering us for a few days...

[percy2]

How so?

If I aswered I'd be breaking forum rules.

So I'll stick to being cryptic.

[PeaceBlondie]

The original poster, MacMac, posted twice on ThaiVisa, in this topic, and seems to have resolved his question. I've had to edit posts that broke forum rules. I hope we haven't scared off Dr. Fisher, and I hope he'll continue posting.

Nah, I'm no expert (read my signature, please). Kenkanniff is the most modest, self-effacing person I've ever known. IJWT has been teaching in foreign countries long enough to have an opinion (and to be a bit more suspicious than some of us more trusting types).

Unlike Leonardo diCaprio's character in "Catch Me if You Can," based on a true story, you can't impersonate a doctor for long and get away with it. In Thailand, however, you can get by teaching EFL, below university level, without a master's degree, or a B.Ed., or a BA in English. Sometimes, without any bachelor's degree. And the TEFL cert? I'm not aware there's any national, govt. requirement for that; it just indicates that you probably know a little bit about TEFL.

[MacMac]

wow people. Looks like a domestic is happening in this thread. I thought I had received loads of replies with detail advice on what to do next I guess I was wrong

As a newbie I wouldn't want to get involved, but I thought I should reply to Dr. Fisher to say thanks for the post that said I should check out the credibility of my online course. Luckily it is a well established online University in the UK and the degree is accepted by Postgrad courses at other Universities. But thank for the advice I know that there a lot of dodge online courses around.

[paully]

I know this will probably get me banned (again) but there are actually some pretty good international unis here in Thailand and they have to meet the same accreditation requirements as Unis in farang land.

Not really, mate. I've taught at 2 international universities in Thailand and can assure you that the quality is not to be compared with universities in the West. In fact, I wouldn't even be able to get a job at a western university in the absence of a PhD or (minimum) MBA.

[Ladphrao]

Paully,

Now I understand. Since there were incidents where universities in Thailand hired instructors with lower qualifications than is the norm in Western countries it invalidates my comments about SOME international university programs in Thailand.

The reports that hundreds of Thai students transfer with their credits to Western universities are obviously false since no western university could accept credits earned at a university that didn't have similar standards. Also, the government must be involved in a massive cover-up when it reports that students who have graduated from Thai universities go on to earn graduate degrees in Western countries. Obviously Western universities would not allow in students who didn’t have internationally accepted degrees, and even if a few graduates from Thai Universities did slip by, since they studied in Thai universities they would not be prepared for higher Western education and would always fail out. The exchange programs with Western universities that Thai international programs claim they have are nothing but lies. Those classes I thought I taught at a Thai university last year where half the students were on exchange programs from European universities earning credits used for graduation in their home countries were nothing but figments of my imagination. This issue of the Multinational Business Review and the latest issue of Critical Perspectives on International Business that happen to be here on my desk are obviously forgeries, since it would have been impossible for Thai and foreign instructors working in international university programs in Thailand to be able to have written up research that would be acceptable to peer-reviewed academic journals. The dozens of new international university programs that have sprung up in the last decade and the huge expansion of the programs that already existed at that time did not really happen; instead there was a conspiracy to fool those of us without your keen perception.

You, along with the unhappy trio, have convinced me. I am now a true believer of the cause. I was delusional in thinking it was working in a dynamic growth industry in its early stages with numerous future possibilities. Now I see the light, all education in Thailand is bad, always has been bad, and always will be bad. I also now see the value in constantly trying to tear-down and endlessly criticize the industry we are part of. I now see why the trio has devoted their lives and countless hours to the cause and I now realize instead of criticism, they deserve our gratitude. Can you imagine how worse off we would now be if there were not scores of ESL teachers along with the trio endlessly harping about every detail of teaching in Thailand?

I was wrong in feeling good about my career choice and being optimistic about the future. I will call my publisher and cancel my book contract and end all the research projects I am working on or planning. Since I am in education in Thailand, it is obvious nothing I could do would be worthwhile, so why even try? I was mistaken, I thought in some very small little way I might have been doing something to help some people by providing them an opportunity to be exposed to a different cultural viewpoint than their own, and I also thought I was growing and constantly learning from what I mistakenly thought was a wonderful opportunity to work in this fascinating country with people from different cultures in an international environment. How wrong I was! I now know, thanks to you and the trio, that I am wasting my time and I will gain nothing from teaching in Thailand, except the scorn and ridicule of real members of academia and real teachers, and I should be spending my time in incessant gripping about the Thai educational system, Thais, and Thai culture in general.

I want to thank you, and the trio, so much for helping me understand what is really going on around me and making me realize how really awful everything is. I am sure my life will get significantly better now I have accepted the real truth of my situation and give up trying to do anything constructive and accept that I am a victim of the Thais and the Thai educational system and join into the life of constant complaining and overall negativity.

Cheers

[Ladphrao]

What is this button for?

Edited July 22, 2006 by Ladphrao

[PeaceBlondie]

What is this button for?

What is the purpose of which button, Ladphrao?

Well, unfortunately, I'm sorry to say that I had to find the DELETE button. Ladphrao insists on using a general forum to criticize or discuss moderation. Not allowed, per forum rules.

[Ijustwannateach]

Why's he so negative, anyway? Why can't he be happy like us?

:D

Maybe he misses being a TEFL teacher... poor guy...

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

P.S., long time no see, paully, good to have you back.

[PeaceBlondie]

I do admit that much of what Laphrao said, in so many words, has a lot of truth to it. He commented on how a small group of people, in any forum, can dominate the conversation, which might (I suppose) give new readers the impression that the experience of TEFLers and secondary teachers is all we talk about. I surely didn't mean to come across as an exclusionary expert or authority. We were, of course, reporting our experiences, as others report theirs.

Nah, I ain't no expert, not even an ex-spurt. I'm often wrong, times without number.

[Ijustwannateach]

You'd think that someone so influential, powerful, and important as LP would have better things to do than whinge about what is, after all, majority opinion on education in Thailand. I don't know a single board which spends much time discussing teaching in Thailand which doesn't go over the same *kinds* of topics and come to more or less the *same* conclusions, if not in exactly the same words (I like to think we do it with the most class here, but that's my fever talking).

Reading his message, you'd think it was only the three individuals he has so far focussed on flaming. Reading this forum, along with Ajarn, TEFLAsia, Dave's, Teflwatch, etc., etc. for many years shows that the kinds of opinion that most people are posting here (and those other places) are firmly the majority opinion- and unless we're all insane or idiots, which I modestly believe to be far from the case, he's simply either wrong, deluded, or has been living in a very unusual island of difference in the same country.

A large part of his diatribe, though, is simply a long, unimaginative and unconvincing straw man. He would like to characterise us three bad boys as saying that all education in Thailand is bad, has been bad forever, and will always be bad. That's not true- if we thought that, we wouldn't even be trying. Majority opinion shows that Thais in the system have an institutional/cultural problem with pointing out the problems in their educational institutions, and we can play a valuable role in cutting through some of those hangups and saying it like it is. Acknowledging problems, after all, is the first step to fixing them. And boy, do Thais have a big problem acknowledging problems [as perhaps, does LP?].

Of course, there's a chance we could all simply be wrong, on all of the forums. But what's the most likely, especially since I don't really see ol' LP offering alternative viewpoints and evidence- he just wants to complain about the people who are offering the majority viewpoint, more specifically 3 people on this forum, and inaccurately call them "TEFLers" as if it were an expletive. [technically speaking, none of the 3 people he's so wound up about actually do teach English as a foreign language at the moment, as far as I know ]. These bizarre attempts to tear down others (what's wrong with TEFLers? Some of my best friends are TEFLers... ) are paired with the other classic insecure man's habit: bragging.

If LP wants to address actual facts about teaching at different levels in Thailand and discuss them without insults, the melodramatic and monotonous sarcasm, and the personal remarks, not to mention the generalisations about other posters on this forum, I'd be happy to discuss his alternative viewpoints. But frankly, at the moment he seems [and let me be clear that this is only my personal opinion] little more than a crank with an axe to grind.

Let me say again: if he does start addressing issues, I'll be happy to engage on normal terms of discussion as long as he does so. But otherwise this will be my last post paying attention to LP, unless he gets out of hand enough again to warrant reporting. I think it is not a desirable characteristic of a poster that he takes attention away from real issues and spends most of his time discussing/libelling other posters, or that he inspires such discussion about himself.

PB, you may sometimes be wrong (although I'd say the moments are quite countable, if I can use a TEFL word), but you're always civil and a pleasure to read, even when you disagree. I wish that could be true of everyone.

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

I always thought I was quite pro Thai....I've bigged up Thai Unis here and told people to do degrees here etc.

LoL....to some people (well one person in particular) I'm actually a Thaiophile But on here I'm not....strange!!!

[paully]

You, along with the unhappy trio, have convinced me. I am now a true believer of the cause. I was delusional in thinking it was working in a dynamic growth industry in its early stages with numerous future possibilities. Now I see the light, all education in Thailand is bad, always has been bad, and always will be bad. I also now see the value in constantly trying to tear-down and endlessly criticize the industry we are part of. I now see why the trio has devoted their lives and countless hours to the cause and I now realize instead of criticism, they deserve our gratitude. Can you imagine how worse off we would now be if there were not scores of ESL teachers along with the trio endlessly harping about every detail of teaching in Thailand?

I was wrong in feeling good about my career choice and being optimistic about the future. I will call my publisher and cancel my book contract and end all the research projects I am working on or planning. Since I am in education in Thailand, it is obvious nothing I could do would be worthwhile, so why even try? I was mistaken, I thought in some very small little way I might have been doing something to help some people by providing them an opportunity to be exposed to a different cultural viewpoint than their own, and I also thought I was growing and constantly learning from what I mistakenly thought was a wonderful opportunity to work in this fascinating country with people from different cultures in an international environment. How wrong I was! I now know, thanks to you and the trio, that I am wasting my time and I will gain nothing from teaching in Thailand, except the scorn and ridicule of real members of academia and real teachers, and I should be spending my time in incessant gripping about the Thai educational system, Thais, and Thai culture in general.

I want to thank you, and the trio, so much for helping me understand what is really going on around me and making me realize how really awful everything is. I am sure my life will get significantly better now I have accepted the real truth of my situation and give up trying to do anything constructive and accept that I am a victim of the Thais and the Thai educational system and join into the life of constant complaining and overall negativity.

Cheers

Steady on, old son. Just one or two lines of biting sarcasm are usually sufficient.

IJWT, nice to 'see' you again too. All is well with you, I hope?

[Ladphrao]

IJWT

I am not sure what your point was, that is ok, don’t feel you need to attempt to clarify it.

Ken

Yes, it is strange.

As we are involved in education, I am sure we all are at least vaguely familiar with some of the elements of learning theory. One of the key components needed for learning is having the willingness to learn. Being closed minded prevents learning from taking place.

“You ain’t gonna learn what you don’t want to know.”

On the other hand, it is impossible to get by without relying on past experience and once something is learned, it often becomes frozen and the person doesn’t want to unfreeze and reevaluate the knowledge. So, we are all close-minded about some things. For example, I am close-minded about the possibility of UFOs coming to Earth and abducting persons from out of trailer parks in Arkansas to conduct experiments on. I have already made up my mind on the subject and have no intention in reevaluating the conclusions I have reached.

To prevent having to reevaluate existing knowledge and beliefs, people rely on a number of filtering tactics.

Tactic one-don’t gain access to information that would cause one to reevaluate one’s beliefs.

I do no read tabloids (e.g., news of the world or the national enquire) and therefore prevent myself from being exposed to stores and reports that contradict my current beliefs on UFOs.

The trio uses this tactic as well, as mentioned by IJWT, web forums for teachers in Thailand are filled in information that supports the doctrine of the trio, and the trio gets most of its information from these sources. One the other hand, the trio do not seek out information from academic education journals or studies on cross-cultural behavior and perspectives, since these sources are likely to possess information the trio would find conflicts with their pre-existing mindsets.

Second tactic is to attack the source of the information.

When I hear that Billy-Bob Junior was abducted by aliens and forced to perform strange acts, my first reaction is to shout that Billy-Bob Junior is nothing but an in-bred drunken-publicity-seeking idiot. But in reality, I don’t know anything about Billy-Bob Junior, but if I can easily discredit the source of the information, I will not have to evaluate information that may force me to change the basic assumptions I have.

The trio makes extensive use of this strategy.

A third tactic is to persuade others of the truthfulness of your beliefs and to prevent the beliefs of others from being heard or discussed.

I have been known to write on a variety of topics, and some of these pieces have been described as “provocative.” So I make us of this strategy, however, since I don’t have really strong passions about the topic of UFOs, I don’t make much of an effort to get my side of the story out and “censor” others. However, if I was ever an editor of a journal or magazine, I am sure I wouldn’t allow any stories of UFO abductions.

The trio makes substantial use of this strategy.

So I understand why the trio has the beliefs it has (I am actually using the trio as an example of a particular type of ethnocentric perspective for a project I will be working on next year after I finish up a couple of projects I am currently working on, and I have been collecting quotes and nuggets of “wisdom” from the trio to be used and analyzed to support my theory) but the tireless passion they have for their mission of spreading their beliefs to others while attempting to prevent diverse views from being discussed is a bit of a mystery.

It would make a good psychological case study through.

[Ijustwannateach]

I don't think your creative discussion of our "tactics" has anything to do with teaching in Thailand. It gets pretty close to flaming, though. I recommend this thread be closed.

[the scouser]

Please carry on personal vendettas elsewhere.

Scouse.