A Woman Manager In Thailand?

[lukrung]

Hiya,

I have been trying relentlessly to get a job in Thailand as what I do now. I'm a manager of computer programmers, and I am also very proficient as a project manager. I'm 29, and half thai, and most noticeably, a female.

What does that do to my chances? I know that Thais are very very adverse to having someone younger than them manage. Plus, they would totally feel disrespected with a woman as their manager wouldn't they? I am nervous about that for several reasons.

I know that business is different in Thailand, which is why I'm asking: Has anyone seen women in IT in Thailand? Are these women successful as managers? This is very important to me because I have a job lead and could be doing this type of work within the next week.

Thanks for any advice !

-Lin

/Edit: Moderator Removed Link as per Forum Rules

Edited June 30, 2006 by Wolfie

[~G~]

If your nationality is Thai and/or you do not require a work permit, with your native English you have a big advantage over many.

I know many women managers, but not neccesarily in IT. I believe it is more up to your character than your gender, even in Thailand.

Good luck.

[MattFS218]

Yah, I know several woman managers in Thailand...being a woman won't be a problem. Good luck!

[S a b a i]

Hi...I am Thai. I have a cousin and she is now MD of a motor company base in Chonburi. She is about 40.

I used to be an assistant manager when I was twenties (young and pretty )...it took a little bit more time at the begining to prove especially to mange the one older than you...but it was fine.

In my opinion, it seems to has less problem for a woman manager in professional area (IT, academic, finacial and law etc).

Good luck

[The Skipper]

Program your mind to be about 12 years old and you should get along well with your Thai workmates.

Don't expect production to be anywhere near western standards.

Never criticize. People lose face waay too easily.

If they show up late, turn their work station into a Som Tum stand, no problem.

Learn to smile and play make-believe and things should be OK.

Think I'm kidding?

[lukrung]

Program your mind to be about 12 years old and you should get along well with your Thai workmates.

Don't expect production to be anywhere near western standards.

Never criticize. People lose face waay too easily.

If they show up late, turn their work station into a Som Tum stand, no problem.

Learn to smile and play make-believe and things should be OK.

Think I'm kidding?

That's the kind of honesty I was looking for. Are you serious? It's going to be hard to come from Philadelphia where things are fast paced to a place like Thailand where things are slow. I've lived in Thailand before for a year when I was a student and it takes time to adjust into the way of life there without driving yourself mad.

This will be my first time working there.

Do you work in IT? is it the same there?

[h90]

Program your mind to be about 12 years old and you should get along well with your Thai workmates.

Don't expect production to be anywhere near western standards.

Never criticize. People lose face waay too easily.

If they show up late, turn their work station into a Som Tum stand, no problem.

Learn to smile and play make-believe and things should be OK.

Think I'm kidding?

my wife is from the deep south,

she gives money,

spend them some beer when they work well

she explains everything for hours (I already thought the european 3 hour meetings are useless but here hours and hours for explaining easy things and useless things (what kind of tshirts are proper in the office.....))

makes pseudo-democratic decisions (force everyone to agree)

and they criticize them in a way every european staff would run away.

(telling them that they are lazy idiots)

Actually on the beginning I did not agree with her style, but as longer as I stay here, I think that might be the only way to controll them and all the time we don't stay some kind of mobbing starts, when my wife comes back, she is the feared enemy and the staff is working together.

Another topic is corruption everywhere......

But I think in technical things like IT it is better than if you have to take care on sales guys (like we).

[steveromagnino]

I am also 1/2 thai, and while not female, most of the managers here (and in NZ) that I have worked with have been women, mostly young. I am noly a little older than you, but work in a fairly senior role here, and have yet to encounter too much ageism; certainly THai respect for age and seniority is very important, but in the workplace it is more about results than seniority (at least in the private sector).

IT industry may be different, but generally being a woman here would earn you no more or less respect. There is what a westerner might consider sexism here, but it is more statements of fact along the lines of 'she is fat','she has big boobs','this is men's business, boys night out, women not invited' etc which are more things that western companies don't allow men to say outloud due to sexism law but actually most of the guys think or say behind the women's backs. In terms of actually getting things done, Thailand ranks pretty high for % of female managers; especially in say banking, retail or finance.

I suspect Americans and Germans have the toughest times working here, and especially IMHO east coast Americans who are the most highly strung people I've yet had to work with (I've had to work with quite a few). Many are brilliant with so much to give, but they struggle here, because the pace is VASTLY different, i.e. much slower and the way things are done is different. In my opinion not worse or better, just slower and different. Actually, I can think of a few NYers in NZ that were exactly the same; they wanted everything to be like NY and could not ever figure out that maybe people were happier working the way they did down there. Adapting is an important thing.

As a Thai, hopefully you understand concepts of nam jai, greng jai, seea nah and jai dee. Good bosses can criticise, can complain about their staff, can get outstanding performance out of staff and can get high standards. But it takes a different approach. Lots of fun in the workplace, often working at a slower pace; giving people time to understand what they are supposde to do and a way to talk to you in private if they do not go miles. Meetings take a while before staff will be willing to speak up, and staff will often have long memories if you treat them poorly - i.e. yelling at them, criticising them publically, mocking them, etc. Assuming you speak good Thai, then that provides a much softer way to communicate, even when much of the conversation may be in mixed language.

Proving you really know what is going on, and having a couple of confidentes in the staff helps stave off corruption; many of the issues shouldn't really affect you as much as you actually (hopefully) understand more about what is going on here than a non Thai speaker might as you speak and understand more (hopefully) plus the level is above factory worker (hopefully).

I can think of some outstanding western bosses that I've heard of and one or two that I have met. They did just fine without speaking Thai, because they earned the staff's respect. The 'yell all week then go out and drink beers on Friday'/'work hard play hard' mentality I encountered when I worked in North America might work fine there, but it is definitely not going to work here. You'll really need to slow down a lot at the beginning, win respect then shape the culture in the company as you want it. Even the most abrasive American I know, while he yells at his staff and runs the place exactly like a stereotypical NYer, he is sufficiently brilliant and helpful that his staff put up with it, and after 3 years now yell back at him! While he is one of the many farang that actively looks down on Thai culture and people at every possible opportunity (which is something you will get very used to here if you spend time with most westerner groups) the staff have learned to just ignore those bits as most of it is just pointless drivel much like 3/4 of what I write :-)

BTW This is in no way meant to be a comment on what I think of American management; merely that the style of America (which works well there for the most part) is very very different to here. Figure that bit out and you'll do well. And if you can take the bits American management models do really well (planning, benchmarking, research, etc) and can do that here, then you can shine.

Work is supposed to be fun; make if fun and stable for your staff; control your emotions and stay calm; expect to spend a little more time laying up guidelines and winning trust - after that the sky is the limit. Good luck, and PM me if you want any more info.

If IT management doesn't work out, just become a lay about actress/model like all the other lukkrung :-)

[samran]

I'd have to second what Steve has said. I think many expats here see people not speaking up, a lack of confidence in English, and a slower work pace and mistake it as a form of stupidity (ie skippers 12 year old comment).

To be honest, if you speak Thai, it is pretty clear that most people here are neither dumber or smarter than elsewhere. The guys I work with at least are always very focussed, if they have something to do. There are just different ways of achieving things here.

In my experience (and I say this probably a little biased) but the best expat managers I have seen tend to be from Australia or NZ simply because while they are results orientated, they come from cultures in which agressiveness at work isn't really the norm, so are more comfortable working in that environment.

[lukrung]

steve ... you're half thai!?! <3 yay! a fellow lukrung!

Anyhow, thank you for the inside view of what the work environment is like.

I think that you all have been very resourceful in helping me understand what the business world is like.

I guess I"m just paranoid, and I'm trying to justify my move over there. I don't want to go half way around the world to find out that I made the wrong decision.

I've lived in Thailand before but only as a student. Now that I am an adult, and 15 years later, I am realizing that I want to go back to Thailand. I just feel that I've worked so hard to get where I am now. I'm one of those *gasp* dare I say it, North Eastern North American people who do work hard. But the thing is, I"m so easy going (maybe it's the Thai in me) that I don't think that I will be bothered by slow moving people.

However, I will have problems (mak mak) because my thai is not so good. I can understand, and read and write and speak at a moderate level. I can't exactly discuss politics but I can get by pretty well with understanding people.

Thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!!!!

[Dakhar]

Ummm

Maybe I am stuck in a different world within Thailand. Because I rarely see the easy going life at work. Employees are supposed to work from 8:30 to 5:30, 6 days a week.... but they never do. They work 8:00 to 8:00 some even 7 days a week. I happen to be one of the lucky people that work 7 days a week. I caught a break today... being my birthday and all. Well, technically I am still at work, on call, working at the home office.... any reason I should have to rush out, I would do so.

Thai companies from what I can tell, do not understand of having a life beyond your job. Your job is your life. For example, I was told that we are having a co. outing next weekend. Sure, no big deal for me, I live for the job, but what if someone was planning on getting married or something... ?

The point is, there was such a short notice to the employees, becaus the employers just figure folks have no other life, but work.

I was making 6 figures back in the states, and I never lived this type of life. Sure the money I earn here is great, but the money to me is just a meaningless number.

Good luck to you.

P.S.

I don't want to be percieved as a complainer, I am just telling you how things can be here.

[lukrung]

Ummm

Maybe I am stuck in a different world within Thailand. Because I rarely see the easy going life at work. Employees are supposed to work from 8:30 to 5:30, 6 days a week.... but they never do. They work 8:00 to 8:00 some even 7 days a week. I happen to be one of the lucky people that work 7 days a week. I caught a break today... being my birthday and all. Well, technically I am still at work, on call, working at the home office.... any reason I should have to rush out, I would do so.

Thai companies from what I can tell, do not understand of having a life beyond your job. Your job is your life. For example, I was told that we are having a co. outing next weekend. Sure, no big deal for me, I live for the job, but what if someone was planning on getting married or something... ?

The point is, there was such a short notice to the employees, becaus the employers just figure folks have no other life, but work.

I was making 6 figures back in the states, and I never lived this type of life. Sure the money I earn here is great, but the money to me is just a meaningless number.

Good luck to you.

P.S.

I don't want to be percieved as a complainer, I am just telling you how things can be here.

Hi Thanks for the response. If you don't mind me asking, what did you do in the US and now what are you doing in Thailand??? I'd be having a similar paycut if I moved to Thailand

[bangsaenguy]

If you're good at your job, why would you expect to make less money here?

[LoveDaBlues]

If you're good at your job, why would you expect to make less money here?

[tom yum goong]

Hi, as a fellow luk krung, I thought i'd share my experience of working with Thais.

As a luk krung you are not neccessarily in the same position as another farangs working/managing in Thailand. You will have many advantages over farangs, but with those advantages come expectations. You have to be aware of how you, as a luk krung, are perceived by your staff and the other Thais in your company.

The nature of your relationships with your staff will depend greatly on whether they view you as a Thai or farang (this perception doesnt have to be set in stone and may change over time, but i think how you set your stall out in the beginning should be how you intend to carry on. Perceptions are not always easy to change).

When i started working i felt like i had 2 options:

1. Become assimilated as a Thai (as much as possible) - this means observing all the Thai social norms, for example, always being respectful to elders irrespective of their position in the company, even if they are only slightly older than you - plus all the stuff that steveromagnino mentioned: greng jai, nam jai etc. These things will be expected of you and failure to observe protocol may jeopardise your relationship with the other staff.

2. Remaining a foreigner - you can choose to act as any other farang would, obviously respecting Thai culture and speaking Thai (if you can), but at the same time not allowing it to have too great an impact on how you relate to your staff.

Option 2 appears to be less risky and easier to pull off, after all there are many farang managers working successfully in Thailand. However, I see this as giving up all of the advantages you have as a luk krung. Stay as a farang and you will always remain an outsider, observing but never fully understanding.

Take option 1 and a whole other world opens up to you. Yes you are restricted by Thai culture, but you are now a cameleon and you can see everybody's cards.

Oh yeah, dont forget to take it slow and remember that you need to micromanage your staff.

Good luck.

[steveromagnino]

Seems like a Thai/luk krueng reunion here :-)

Yep, Tom Yuung Goong makes some really good points there; ultimately if you can be perceived as mostly Thai (and thus one of the 'us') then you are in a position to introduce concepts like speaking up, brainstorming, being independent, being goal orientated and so on if the staff have previously been used to being ordered around. They are able to believe you more easily perhaps than a full on foreigner, as you can more softly explain things, and they also perhaps have a little more trust in you initially.

That said, there is no reason why a foreigner cannot do the same thing; it just takes perhaps more effort and time; speaking Thai being a major one, also some Thai people have some fairly large preconceptions about certain races of people as you well know, and that can sometimes take a while to undo.

All this advice is very SME Thai company centric. For all we know, you may end up in an MNE and the culture may be very American, very German, very Japanese or otherwise. I know the 12 year old comment would be not really appropriate in say McKinsey, where the Thai people certainly know more about and can out think me in almost every conceiveable thing (the foreign partners here I am less sure about :-).

No matter what, I think it is great you will be coming back and I am sure you can add a lot and have a great time :-) I think unless you are at a reasonably senior level in consulting you will probably be getting a pay cut, but if you can line up a job with Accenture or someone similar, dealing with US clients here, then you might be able to acheive close to parity; you would have a major ace in the hole for IT consulting being that you can speak Thai but anyway many of the people you will deal with speak english anyway.

THe final thing I think it is worth mentioning is try to be a generalist; I too believe that Australians and Kiwis make good managers most places in Asia (as do many Scandanavians) simply because they are used to working in companies with few staff, so one manager might need to know some accounting, some finance, a bit of marketing and then also be able to speak to the press about something. e.g. In NZ, I think an SME = a company with less than 15 staff; in USA IBM calls an SME a company with less than 500 staff. I suspect NZ only would have maybe <10 companies with 500 or more staff total.

That makes them able to adapt and realistically most of the business processes here aren't as complex as the massive US companies. Interestingly, I would add that these people from these same countries actually struggle in a market like the USA/UK in some ways, because US companies often need specialist experts who have massive understanding of one thing. For instance in my area my knowledge of strategy, marketing and finance would be useless, as what I do would be spread perhaps across 3 departments and 20 staff all doing things in great depth at a far greater level than I have expertise for; whereas here (or in my previous jobs) we just scrape the surface and do a bit here and there. Most of the senior consultants and partners from NZ at consulting firms have pointed this out to me in the past, and it really has shaped the way I approach working here. With this in mind, don't be scared to really sell yourself, as chances are the work here is going to be at perhaps a slightly lower level than what you were doing back home. And the bits you don't know are learnable for sure, if what you do has any relation to what I do.

[gwkenny]

if what you do has any relation to what I do.

Yah, been trying to figure out what do you do?

Now if rugby had players who wore helmets on the field and rode motorcycles without helmets...

Not Roethlisberger!!!! If he now becomes gunshy, I'll really be bummed.

Woo hoo. Steelers won the superbowl!!!! <---- Just in case anyone missed that

I tried arguing that the best bet would be to see if she can wrangle a contract back home and setup shop over here. Startup costs are minimal regarding software development.

Anyone have any clues for some middle of the road living room furniture? I went to Ethan Allen. Have to admit I was dressed like an idiot and they treated me extremely well and not condescending at all, but I'm not going to drop 160,000 on a couch just yet

Guess it's off to MBK for me one day this weekend.

g-

[oPrincess]

I am a HR Specialist with a degree in IT from Australia. I was a hand on techie for a few years before i turned myself to a mother. Now i help my company recruit IT people. I hire both Thai and expat for the past 2 years. leave me your message in case I can help?

Thanks.

[Dakhar]

If you're good at your job, why would you expect to make less money here?

Well, in America, I worked for a co. full time, and I also owned a company too. So I had two sources of income. I had to close my company in the US in order to come to Thailand. As far as what I made as an employee for the company that I did not own, I earn relatively the same as I did in the US here in Thailand. About 1/3 of my gross income was earned via my own company.

The company that I owned was a medical device company, registered with the FDA.

As far as being "good at my job," I can say there is no Thai or falang within Thailand with my level of education in the field that I am in. If you want the highest educated person in Thailand in my field, I am it. Thailand does not even offer a degree at my level, so if a Thai was ever to obtain my level of training, they would have to leave the country to do so. In fact in Thailand there is only one college with a degree program in my field.

To the OP

I am a allied health care provider. The company I work for happens to have a female vice president, and I have never seen such a hard working, "take charge" kind of person in America or in any other country.

Good luck to you.

[Crushdepth]

What does that do to my chances? I know that Thais are very very adverse to having someone younger than them manage. Plus, they would totally feel disrespected with a woman as their manager wouldn't they? I am nervous about that for several reasons.

I know that business is different in Thailand, which is why I'm asking: Has anyone seen women in IT in Thailand? Are these women successful as managers? This is very important to me because I have a job lead and could be doing this type of work within the next week.

My partner is an ###### for a large company and I know heaps of other women in very senior positions in other fields. I don't think sex is a barrier at all. However, age certainly can be sometimes.