Vietnam presents Thai Air Force with MiG-21bis fighter

[sgtsabai]

We, including me, should tread lightly here, the subject is MIG 21 from VN. For many of us, Vietnam will never be over, some believe we coulda', shoulda' won. Some of us say short of genocide, no way in hell. For many that left brothers behind and went "home" while the war still raged the guilt of leaving them is a lifetime burden. Let's all lighten up, I'm drinking too many beers on this subject and I suspect a couple of others are too.

[Carib]

So the Thai air force museum gets a gift, and look what happens on Thai visa. It is pretty obvious that some things still hurt.

[bangrak]

Funny thing is, that while the Vietnamese are shipping their Russian museum pieces for display in Thailand, they are fervently seeking out a new relationship with the US. The Vietnam War was indeed a murderous fiasco for all concerned. Going on almost 40 years after its end and the two antagonists might well find themselves joined in an alliance once again. I always thought we Americans made a mistake in Vietnam. Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French. Vietnam and the US will always have the same mutual concern--China. But it's a good move to send the Mig to Thailand, as some Thais seem hell bent on building a dependency on China, while all their ASEAN partners are becoming worried about the PRC.

"The Vietnam War was a murderous fiasco for all concerned". Well, yes !

"Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French". Sorry, what ??

The USA fought to liberate France during World War Two. This Ho Chi Minh person. He certainly would not have allied himself with the USA to fight against the French ! The French were the colonial masters, I really don't think Ho would have wanted to remove the French and replace them with America as a colonial master ! Don't forget, the USA fought the Vietnam War, supposedly, to prevent the communists taking over Vietnam. And Ho Chi Minh, he WAS a communist, right ??

Yes, I know everybody loves a winner, and Ho Chi Minh was a winner. But he was a winner for Vietnam, AGAINST America ! I really don't think that American service-men cheered on Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam War. That's like saying American soldiers didn't really like Adolf Hitler during World War Two !

And is it really the case that Vietnam and America have the same mutual concern-China ? There are a large number of Chinese-owned factories in Vietnam. And the CIA World Facebook basically says, that Vietnam does considerably more trade with China than it does with the USA ! Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110117082642AA78HwN

http://www.thehistoryreader.com/modern-history/ho-chi-minh-thomas-jefferson/

The US, siding with colonialist France, drove HCM to the communists for support. He was, at heart, a Vietnamese nationalist. This was not the first or last time the US would choose the wrong side to the detriment of the whole world. The US spent more to help France defend its colonial stakes in Vietnam, in the last five years of the 1950s, than it spent on the entire Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe. Massive stupidity, arrogance, and blindness on the part of the US government (and possible corruption). HCM would have gladly accepted US support to gain independence and your assertion that the US would replace France as a colonialist is ridiculous. It sounds like you have been propagandized. I know it's hard to let go of your dogma but please read the links and educate yourself.

Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

Yes.

Know-it-all-in Dallas-Texas with your HCM here, HCM there, a 'nationalist', yeah, my .ss, where did he get his 'inspiration' from, nothing to do with the young PR of China, he played out in favour of the 'more supportive', and less 'invasive' (in the end Viets hate Chinese) USSR, any idea how different the people from north and south were/are, how much they 'dislike(d)' one another, a 'nationalist' bringing them together, yes sure, in a communist system lead by himself, imposed from the north... And when you speak about the military side, it's all credit to Giap, not HCM, one of the best strategists of the 20th century, he's the one who was in the lead to kick out the French, and later the US mega-military-machine, teeth on the pavement, out of Vietnam!

[rametindallas]

Funny thing is, that while the Vietnamese are shipping their Russian museum pieces for display in Thailand, they are fervently seeking out a new relationship with the US. The Vietnam War was indeed a murderous fiasco for all concerned. Going on almost 40 years after its end and the two antagonists might well find themselves joined in an alliance once again. I always thought we Americans made a mistake in Vietnam. Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French. Vietnam and the US will always have the same mutual concern--China. But it's a good move to send the Mig to Thailand, as some Thais seem hell bent on building a dependency on China, while all their ASEAN partners are becoming worried about the PRC.

"The Vietnam War was a murderous fiasco for all concerned". Well, yes !

"Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French". Sorry, what ??

The USA fought to liberate France during World War Two. This Ho Chi Minh person. He certainly would not have allied himself with the USA to fight against the French ! The French were the colonial masters, I really don't think Ho would have wanted to remove the French and replace them with America as a colonial master ! Don't forget, the USA fought the Vietnam War, supposedly, to prevent the communists taking over Vietnam. And Ho Chi Minh, he WAS a communist, right ??

Yes, I know everybody loves a winner, and Ho Chi Minh was a winner. But he was a winner for Vietnam, AGAINST America ! I really don't think that American service-men cheered on Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam War. That's like saying American soldiers didn't really like Adolf Hitler during World War Two !

And is it really the case that Vietnam and America have the same mutual concern-China ? There are a large number of Chinese-owned factories in Vietnam. And the CIA World Facebook basically says, that Vietnam does considerably more trade with China than it does with the USA ! Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110117082642AA78HwN

http://www.thehistoryreader.com/modern-history/ho-chi-minh-thomas-jefferson/

The US, siding with colonialist France, drove HCM to the communists for support. He was, at heart, a Vietnamese nationalist. This was not the first or last time the US would choose the wrong side to the detriment of the whole world. The US spent more to help France defend its colonial stakes in Vietnam, in the last five years of the 1950s, than it spent on the entire Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe. Massive stupidity, arrogance, and blindness on the part of the US government (and possible corruption). HCM would have gladly accepted US support to gain independence and your assertion that the US would replace France as a colonialist is ridiculous. It sounds like you have been propagandized. I know it's hard to let go of your dogma but please read the links and educate yourself.

Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

Yes.

Know-it-all-in Dallas-Texas with your HCM here, HCM there, a 'nationalist', yeah, my .ss, where did he get his 'inspiration' from, nothing to do with the young PR of China, he played out in favour of the 'more supportive', and less 'invasive' (in the end Viets hate Chinese) USSR, any idea how different the people from north and south were/are, how much they 'dislike(d)' one another, a 'nationalist' bringing them together, yes sure, in a communist system lead by himself, imposed from the north... And when you speak about the military side, it's all credit to Giap, not HCM, one of the best strategists of the 20th century, he's the one who was in the lead to kick out the French, and later the US mega-military-machine, teeth on the pavement, out of Vietnam!

Wow! In your post, you claim to know more than 'Know-it-all-in Dallas-Texas'. You know more that Wikipedia and so many learned people who have actually had books published. I am so proud you deigned to address me. I shall treasure this moment for the rest of my life.

Really, there is no need for name calling when you have the facts behind you. You do have facts to back you up, don't you? Maybe some links like the ones I provided? No? Oh, well, some people don't know how to have an honest disagreement without getting ugly about it.

BTW, I didn't speak of the military side so the last half of your post you were arguing with yourself. Straw man argument, much?

Edited July 18, 2014 by rametindallas

[AYJAYDEE]

Perhaps all you clever dicks should take a look at this before you prattle out some more inane comments?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vietnam_War_flying_aces

Hokum.

Do you actually believe the stats that North Vietnam pushed out?

Bigger fool you if you do, I would trust the stats of a communist country at war about as far as I could throw a Mig 21!

The link you posted isn't even verified.

American fighters had a far superior kill ratio to the Vietnamese, 19:3 for the F8 fighter the F4 shot down 66 Mig 21's, confirmed kills and finished the war with an 11:1 kill ratio (although it started with a much lower ratio until a machine gun was fitted for dog fighting)..

Considering that Mig 21's didn't often mix it up with US fighters but would fly in at top speed, attack bombers and keep going I don't see how the figures can be close to correct.

The North Vietnamese didn't have that many Mig 21's and used them sparingly because of the kill ratio.

you believe westmorelands stats??lol. wanna buy a bridge?

[FangFerang]

He said the fighter aircraft was able to destroy several F-105, F-4 and B-52 fighter bombers which were very powerful at that time. (MCOT online news)

Maybe one of you military guys can set this straight, but I thought the B52 was a strategic bomber, not a fighter bomber. And I don't remember too many North Vietnamese aircraft ever taking to the skies--at least not while the USAF was there. I could be wrong. But there should be some experts out there who know.

You are correct. Few missions went sideways from the "gift" aircraft they gave the Thais.

I see this as a shift in relations. Since the Chinese have no contentions with Thai maritime dominion, then why should the Thais care? Of course, ASEAN complicates that...a LOT

[gchurch259]

He said the fighter aircraft was able to destroy several F-105, F-4 and B-52 fighter bombers which were very powerful at that time. (MCOT online news)

Maybe one of you military guys can set this straight, but I thought the B52 was a strategic bomber, not a fighter bomber. And I don't remember too many North Vietnamese aircraft ever taking to the skies--at least not while the USAF was there. I could be wrong. But there should be some experts out there who know.

The B-52 is a Heavy Bomber it's primary mission is High Altitude Bombing. However, the B-47 and B-52's were capabile of Low Level flying to avoid radar and would make heavy pull up manuer to toss there bombs, this was only planned for Nuclear Bombs, not the carpet type mosst are familiar with.

With the advent if missiles like the SAM the low level bomb runs became too dangerous. They also created much stress on the wings and both series of bombers required modification to the wings to continue.

No B-52's were shot down by M-21's. Some were damaged and one was hit by a SAM while avoiding a M-21. Two M-21's were shot down by B-52 Tail Gunners. Wilkipedia has stats for review. While I never was a Ground Crew Member for B-52' I was a B-47 and B-58 Ground Crew Member for 12 years in SAC before becoming a C-141 Flight Engineer.

[tonbridgebrit]

Funny thing is, that while the Vietnamese are shipping their Russian museum pieces for display in Thailand, they are fervently seeking out a new relationship with the US. The Vietnam War was indeed a murderous fiasco for all concerned. Going on almost 40 years after its end and the two antagonists might well find themselves joined in an alliance once again. I always thought we Americans made a mistake in Vietnam. Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French. Vietnam and the US will always have the same mutual concern--China. But it's a good move to send the Mig to Thailand, as some Thais seem hell bent on building a dependency on China, while all their ASEAN partners are becoming worried about the PRC.

"The Vietnam War was a murderous fiasco for all concerned". Well, yes !

"Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French". Sorry, what ??

The USA fought to liberate France during World War Two. This Ho Chi Minh person. He certainly would not have allied himself with the USA to fight against the French ! The French were the colonial masters, I really don't think Ho would have wanted to remove the French and replace them with America as a colonial master ! Don't forget, the USA fought the Vietnam War, supposedly, to prevent the communists taking over Vietnam. And Ho Chi Minh, he WAS a communist, right ??

Yes, I know everybody loves a winner, and Ho Chi Minh was a winner. But he was a winner for Vietnam, AGAINST America ! I really don't think that American service-men cheered on Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam War. That's like saying American soldiers didn't really like Adolf Hitler during World War Two !

And is it really the case that Vietnam and America have the same mutual concern-China ? There are a large number of Chinese-owned factories in Vietnam. And the CIA World Facebook basically says, that Vietnam does considerably more trade with China than it does with the USA ! Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110117082642AA78HwN

http://www.thehistoryreader.com/modern-history/ho-chi-minh-thomas-jefferson/

The US, siding with colonialist France, drove HCM to the communists for support. He was, at heart, a Vietnamese nationalist. This was not the first or last time the US would choose the wrong side to the detriment of the whole world. The US spent more to help France defend its colonial stakes in Vietnam, in the last five years of the 1950s, than it spent on the entire Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe. Massive stupidity, arrogance, and blindness on the part of the US government (and possible corruption). HCM would have gladly accepted US support to gain independence and your assertion that the US would replace France as a colonialist is ridiculous. It sounds like you have been propagandized. I know it's hard to let go of your dogma but please read the links and educate yourself.

Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

Yes.

Okay, okay, let's get into this Ho Chi Minh person, and try and see what political group he was in.

According to wikipedia, he did travel to France, USA and England during the early part of his life !

In France, 1920, he was part of the French communists. In the early 1920s, he went to the USSR (by then, definitely a communist country) and was with the communists there. He went to China in 1925, and was a communist there. He left China on 1927, he left because the Chinese Nationalists (under Chan Kai Shek) took over China, he was forced to leave. He did actually turn up in Thailand in 1928. He went to the Soviet Union in the 1930s, and back to communist China in the late 1930s.

So, basically, he was a communist ! Yes, the CIA (they was called the OSS back then) had contact with him in 1945.

And basically, bearing in mind that he was a communist at a pretty early time, well, I don't think we can say that the USA drove Ho to the communists for support. Yes, he was a Vietnamese nationalist, he loved his nation. And when the French left Vietnam, okay, so we have Vietnam and America fighting a war. If Ho did love the USA, and if he was not a communist, why didn't Ho say to the Americans "hello America, I'm not a communist, my nation is not a communist country, you're not interested in becoming my new colonial master, I love you, stop spending a lot of your money to fight this war against my country, I want your support and nobody else's, you're only fighting my nation because you don't want my nation to be a communist country".

Why didn't Ho Chi Minh say that to America ? Is it because he was scared that China and Russia would declare war on America, and that China and Russia would win ??

"Rametindallas", you ask me to educate myself ! I say to you, read the stuff yourself ! The USA wanted to stop the spread of communism, the USA regarded communism as a cancer that had to be stopped, the so-called domino effect. It appears to me, that you love Ho CHi Minh for whatever reasons. You don't want a picture were Ho Chi Minh was actually against the Americans. You're trying to re-write history, where Ho Chi Minh is regarded as a friend of the USA !!!

"MARILYN MONROE HAD A SEVEN YEAR ITCH, HO CHI MINH IS A SON OF A BITCH".

[sgtsabai]

gchurch259, thank you for the info. My cousin flew B-47's first, back in the days when they were allowed to fly not quite so restricted. I remember his low level over my grandfather's house in deep E Texas. And, later B-52's over VN. Unfortunately, we never talked about those days.

[tonbridgebrit]

We, including me, should tread lightly here, the subject is MIG 21 from VN. For many of us, Vietnam will never be over, some believe we coulda', shoulda' won. Some of us say short of genocide, no way in hell. For many that left brothers behind and went "home" while the war still raged the guilt of leaving them is a lifetime burden. Let's all lighten up, I'm drinking too many beers on this subject and I suspect a couple of others are too.

I certainly don't have a problem with men who served in Vietnam, and I do sometimes actually drink with such men. And it's certainly not my intent to blast or criticise the men who were there, I'm not even interested in blasting the US government for fighting that war. I just want to write an account of what happened, and to say my opinion of who or what Ho Chi Minh was. I don't think 'rametindallas' has dangerous or harmfall views, I see him as a man who has views that would be smirked at by lots of people.

[M270A1]

He said the fighter aircraft was able to destroy several F-105, F-4 and B-52 fighter bombers which were very powerful at that time. (MCOT online news)

Maybe one of you military guys can set this straight, but I thought the B52 was a strategic bomber, not a fighter bomber. And I don't remember too many North Vietnamese aircraft ever taking to the skies--at least not while the USAF was there. I could be wrong. But there should be some experts out there who know.

Also, that piece of crap never got close enough to U.S. aircraft. The b-52 was strategic bomber and the Mig-21 would never have gotten close enough to shoot a missile.

[sgtsabai]

tonbridgebrit, give it a break, we are on the subject of airplanes. If you want to start a thread about Ho start on. He lived in Udonthani and NPK. In the meantime, don't speak about that which you know nothing, except right wing propaganda. Ho was a, gasp commie, the OSS knew it and so what. He wanted to be a friend of the US. Had the US not started a war against him, he just might have been and that "Wall" might not exist in DC. My wife's grandfather was a, gasp, Thai commie, one of the only ones in Thailand that never stopped fighting the Japanese. In your eyes he would be considered a terrorist. I'll bet you think obushma is a commie pinko. Go back to school and quit listening to faux, not the, news. Can we please get back on subject, MIG 21 that doesn't, hasn't flown in years? They were good aircraft for their time. Thailand might make closer ties with a commie country against another commie country, oh my, must be mind boggling to you.

[Richan]

HCM didn't defeat America - there was an Armistice, the same as WW1

HCM defeated sth vietnam

Are you a Thai or a US citizen? No loss of face, never admit defeat, you must be Thai then, although quite some ill-informed or manipulated people in the US, not only by Republican party extremists, are still in denial of the deserved flat-on-the-belly defeat there, deserved because of your blunt hillbilly way of imposing your narrow-minded materialistic way of life to the populations, because of your blind trust in your military power, because of your military command wearing blinds, because of your politicians being afraid of the media, and the voters, with so many boys coming home in body-bags, or missing a limb, or two, because of your own CIA helping the French being kicked out (considered too weak and potential future 'accomplices' in the establishment of socialist governments in Indochina), because... No, in fact, you're right, it was not a defeat, the US armed forces were routed in Nahm... look at the pictures of the last days of Saigon, and the Billions USD of equipment left behind, or thrown off of the carriers' decks, the hundreds of POWs left in VC 'hands', the hunderd thousands of Vietnamese 'friends' refused an asylum, etc., I should have been there, but wasn't, you weren't anywhere near may I guess, Mr Kissinger...

Uh, uh! Now we've really been told! A very impressive display of anger. I'm neither thai nor citizen of the US of A, but I took it to heart, anyway! It's interesting, how many feelings the pretty diplomatic article concerning a gift of an outdated fighter aeroplane for museum use from a neighboring country can arise.

Advice to self: never start a bar discussion about MIGs!

[sgtsabai]

Unless it is with fighter pilots about capabilities and then watch the hands...lol. I'd loved to have had that conversation with my former father-in-law who was one hell of airplane driver, F-100's VN. Sorry I never did.

[noitom]

The story honoring this plane that help attack the US and how the plane "destroyed F-105s and B-52s is odd. They wanted the Thais to explain how "powerful" this Mig plane was. Very odd display of bravado by the two generals.

[Richan]

Funny thing is, that while the Vietnamese are shipping their Russian museum pieces for display in Thailand, they are fervently seeking out a new relationship with the US. The Vietnam War was indeed a murderous fiasco for all concerned. Going on almost 40 years after its end and the two antagonists might well find themselves joined in an alliance once again. I always thought we Americans made a mistake in Vietnam. Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French. Vietnam and the US will always have the same mutual concern--China. But it's a good move to send the Mig to Thailand, as some Thais seem hell bent on building a dependency on China, while all their ASEAN partners are becoming worried about the PRC.

"The Vietnam War was a murderous fiasco for all concerned". Well, yes !

"Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French". Sorry, what ??

The USA fought to liberate France during World War Two. This Ho Chi Minh person. He certainly would not have allied himself with the USA to fight against the French ! The French were the colonial masters, I really don't think Ho would have wanted to remove the French and replace them with America as a colonial master ! Don't forget, the USA fought the Vietnam War, supposedly, to prevent the communists taking over Vietnam. And Ho Chi Minh, he WAS a communist, right ??

Yes, I know everybody loves a winner, and Ho Chi Minh was a winner. But he was a winner for Vietnam, AGAINST America ! I really don't think that American service-men cheered on Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam War. That's like saying American soldiers didn't really like Adolf Hitler during World War Two !

And is it really the case that Vietnam and America have the same mutual concern-China ? There are a large number of Chinese-owned factories in Vietnam. And the CIA World Facebook basically says, that Vietnam does considerably more trade with China than it does with the USA ! Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110117082642AA78HwN

http://www.thehistoryreader.com/modern-history/ho-chi-minh-thomas-jefferson/

The US, siding with colonialist France, drove HCM to the communists for support. He was, at heart, a Vietnamese nationalist. This was not the first or last time the US would choose the wrong side to the detriment of the whole world. The US spent more to help France defend its colonial stakes in Vietnam, in the last five years of the 1950s, than it spent on the entire Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe. Massive stupidity, arrogance, and blindness on the part of the US government (and possible corruption). HCM would have gladly accepted US support to gain independence and your assertion that the US would replace France as a colonialist is ridiculous. It sounds like you have been propagandized. I know it's hard to let go of your dogma but please read the links and educate yourself.

Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

Yes.

Okay, okay, let's get into this Ho Chi Minh person, and try and see what political group he was in.

According to wikipedia, he did travel to France, USA and England during the early part of his life !

In France, 1920, he was part of the French communists. In the early 1920s, he went to the USSR (by then, definitely a communist country) and was with the communists there. He went to China in 1925, and was a communist there. He left China on 1927, he left because the Chinese Nationalists (under Chan Kai Shek) took over China, he was forced to leave. He did actually turn up in Thailand in 1928. He went to the Soviet Union in the 1930s, and back to communist China in the late 1930s.

So, basically, he was a communist ! Yes, the CIA (they was called the OSS back then) had contact with him in 1945.

And basically, bearing in mind that he was a communist at a pretty early time, well, I don't think we can say that the USA drove Ho to the communists for support. Yes, he was a Vietnamese nationalist, he loved his nation. And when the French left Vietnam, okay, so we have Vietnam and America fighting a war. If Ho did love the USA, and if he was not a communist, why didn't Ho say to the Americans "hello America, I'm not a communist, my nation is not a communist country, you're not interested in becoming my new colonial master, I love you, stop spending a lot of your money to fight this war against my country, I want your support and nobody else's, you're only fighting my nation because you don't want my nation to be a communist country".

Why didn't Ho Chi Minh say that to America ? Is it because he was scared that China and Russia would declare war on America, and that China and Russia would win ??

"Rametindallas", you ask me to educate myself ! I say to you, read the stuff yourself ! The USA wanted to stop the spread of communism, the USA regarded communism as a cancer that had to be stopped, the so-called domino effect. It appears to me, that you love Ho CHi Minh for whatever reasons. You don't want a picture were Ho Chi Minh was actually against the Americans. You're trying to re-write history, where Ho Chi Minh is regarded as a friend of the USA !!!

"MARILYN MONROE HAD A SEVEN YEAR ITCH, HO CHI MINH IS A SON OF A BITCH".

+1. at least.

[rametindallas]

Funny thing is, that while the Vietnamese are shipping their Russian museum pieces for display in Thailand, they are fervently seeking out a new relationship with the US. The Vietnam War was indeed a murderous fiasco for all concerned. Going on almost 40 years after its end and the two antagonists might well find themselves joined in an alliance once again. I always thought we Americans made a mistake in Vietnam. Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French. Vietnam and the US will always have the same mutual concern--China. But it's a good move to send the Mig to Thailand, as some Thais seem hell bent on building a dependency on China, while all their ASEAN partners are becoming worried about the PRC.

"The Vietnam War was a murderous fiasco for all concerned". Well, yes !

"Right at the beginning, we should have allied with Ho and declared war on the French". Sorry, what ??

The USA fought to liberate France during World War Two. This Ho Chi Minh person. He certainly would not have allied himself with the USA to fight against the French ! The French were the colonial masters, I really don't think Ho would have wanted to remove the French and replace them with America as a colonial master ! Don't forget, the USA fought the Vietnam War, supposedly, to prevent the communists taking over Vietnam. And Ho Chi Minh, he WAS a communist, right ??

Yes, I know everybody loves a winner, and Ho Chi Minh was a winner. But he was a winner for Vietnam, AGAINST America ! I really don't think that American service-men cheered on Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam War. That's like saying American soldiers didn't really like Adolf Hitler during World War Two !

And is it really the case that Vietnam and America have the same mutual concern-China ? There are a large number of Chinese-owned factories in Vietnam. And the CIA World Facebook basically says, that Vietnam does considerably more trade with China than it does with the USA ! Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110117082642AA78HwN

http://www.thehistoryreader.com/modern-history/ho-chi-minh-thomas-jefferson/

The US, siding with colonialist France, drove HCM to the communists for support. He was, at heart, a Vietnamese nationalist. This was not the first or last time the US would choose the wrong side to the detriment of the whole world. The US spent more to help France defend its colonial stakes in Vietnam, in the last five years of the 1950s, than it spent on the entire Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe. Massive stupidity, arrogance, and blindness on the part of the US government (and possible corruption). HCM would have gladly accepted US support to gain independence and your assertion that the US would replace France as a colonialist is ridiculous. It sounds like you have been propagandized. I know it's hard to let go of your dogma but please read the links and educate yourself.

Hey, does Hanoi really love Washington more than it loves Beijing ?

Yes.

Okay, okay, let's get into this Ho Chi Minh person, and try and see what political group he was in.

According to wikipedia, he did travel to France, USA and England during the early part of his life !

In France, 1920, he was part of the French communists. In the early 1920s, he went to the USSR (by then, definitely a communist country) and was with the communists there. He went to China in 1925, and was a communist there. He left China on 1927, he left because the Chinese Nationalists (under Chan Kai Shek) took over China, he was forced to leave. He did actually turn up in Thailand in 1928. He went to the Soviet Union in the 1930s, and back to communist China in the late 1930s.

So, basically, he was a communist ! Yes, the CIA (they was called the OSS back then) had contact with him in 1945.

And basically, bearing in mind that he was a communist at a pretty early time, well, I don't think we can say that the USA drove Ho to the communists for support. Yes, he was a Vietnamese nationalist, he loved his nation. And when the French left Vietnam, okay, so we have Vietnam and America fighting a war. If Ho did love the USA, and if he was not a communist, why didn't Ho say to the Americans "hello America, I'm not a communist, my nation is not a communist country, you're not interested in becoming my new colonial master, I love you, stop spending a lot of your money to fight this war against my country, I want your support and nobody else's, you're only fighting my nation because you don't want my nation to be a communist country".

Why didn't Ho Chi Minh say that to America ? Is it because he was scared that China and Russia would declare war on America, and that China and Russia would win ??

"Rametindallas", you ask me to educate myself ! I say to you, read the stuff yourself ! The USA wanted to stop the spread of communism, the USA regarded communism as a cancer that had to be stopped, the so-called domino effect. It appears to me, that you love Ho CHi Minh for whatever reasons. You don't want a picture were Ho Chi Minh was actually against the Americans. You're trying to re-write history, where Ho Chi Minh is regarded as a friend of the USA !!!

"MARILYN MONROE HAD A SEVEN YEAR ITCH, HO CHI MINH IS A SON OF A BITCH".

If Ho did love the USA, and if he was not a communist, why didn't Ho say to the Americans "hello America, I'm not a communist, my nation is not a communist country, you're not interested in becoming my new colonial master, I love you, stop spending a lot of your money to fight this war against my country, I want your support and nobody else's, you're only fighting my nation because you don't want my nation to be a communist country".

Neither you nor I have any way of knowing what HCM either said or didn't say. His actions are what matter.

My problem is/was colonialism, the French wanting to reestablish its hegemony over Vietnam (and all of Indochina), and the US taking the side of the French against an independent Vietnam that had helped on the side of the Americans against the Japanese every bit as much as the French helped against the Nazis. After the Japanese pulled out and before the French moved back in, HCM had drawn up a Vietnamese constitution based on the US constitution as a Republic with protections for individual rights and freedoms. Had the US stood up to the French at that time (the US could have mounted its moral high horse against colonialism) and supported Vietnamese independence, it is my belief that HCM would not have gone to the Soviet Union for support. The whole course of history would be different and there, almost certainly, would be 3 million less dead Vietnamese, untold maimed/scarred, and the environmental holocaust associated with chemical weapons. No, the US sided with the French who, 'friends' that they are, later tried to entrap the US into using nuclear weapons against the Vietnamese at Điện Biên Phủ. The US presence/control in both South Vietnamese and Thai governments/militarys, through the American CIA, is now well documented and the war was promulgated to make money for the military/industrial complex (plus secretly fund the CIA through heroin smuggling out of the Golden Triangle) and the banks. It was not to fight against the 'boogie man' of communism. I didn't love 'love' HCM but he is worthy of respect as a nationalist fighting for a non-colonial/non-vassal Vietnam. With the election of JFK, the war against the North were going to be ended and it was only through a CIA murder/coup d'etat that LBJ, through his Gulf of Tonkin resolution, fully involved the US in a war it never intended to win. Case in point: they never bombed the dam supplying Hanoi with its electricity. Half the bombs dropped were dropped on uninhabited jungle (jobs at home to make more bombs). More tonnage of bombs were dropped on North Vietnam than were dropped by all sides during the entirety of WWII. This war was financed through banks and never a penny of tax raised to fund it. This was not a war the US wanted to win. In my opinion, Vietnam became a communist country because only communists would support them in their quest for a free and independent Vietnam. How did the same Nixon, who was fighting communism in Vietnam, make peace with communist China if communism was the evil that excused the destruction of Vietnam? Yesterday it was communism as an excuse for the US to intervene and now it is Islamic terrorism. The American CIA funded and supplied the weapons to the anti-Assad forces that have now morphed into ISIS that has invaded Iraq. The CIA is a 'self licking ice cream cone'. It creates the problem so we can have the (military) answer.

I majored in Western History at University and have studied every war from WWI to the present as they are the major shapers of the world and how power is distributed.

Edited July 18, 2014 by rametindallas

[tonbridgebrit]

tonbridgebrit, give it a break, we are on the subject of airplanes. If you want to start a thread about Ho start on. He lived in Udonthani and NPK. In the meantime, don't speak about that which you know nothing, except right wing propaganda. Ho was a, gasp commie, the OSS knew it and so what. He wanted to be a friend of the US. Had the US not started a war against him, he just might have been and that "Wall" might not exist in DC. My wife's grandfather was a, gasp, Thai commie, one of the only ones in Thailand that never stopped fighting the Japanese. In your eyes he would be considered a terrorist. I'll bet you think obushma is a commie pinko. Go back to school and quit listening to faux, not the, news. Can we please get back on subject, MIG 21 that doesn't, hasn't flown in years? They were good aircraft for their time. Thailand might make closer ties with a commie country against another commie country, oh my, must be mind boggling to you.

Sgtsabai, I think you have miss-interpreted what I wrote !

Anyway, I did NOT start this Ho Chi Minh thing, somebody called zydeco did ! I responded to zydeco, and then rametindallas decided to join in.

You think I'm talking about something that I know nothing about ?? Well, I don't claim that people who disagree with my views don't know what they're talking about.

I'm far more interested in getting zydeco and rametindallas to explain their views rather than get you annoyed ! And no, I'm not a believer in right wing propaganda. I laugh a bit when I see Fox News, and no, I'm not against Barack Obama. I'm not an anti-communist, and can you please not use the word commie.

I agree, Ho Chi Minh didn't want to fight the USA, it was the USA who wanted to fight him. You talk about Thailand making closer ties with a communist country against another communist country ? You're being sarcastic, right ? Vietnam and China are only communist in name only, they're not actually communist countries anymore.

Sgtsabai, I don't want to annoy you, please, just let zydeco or rametindallas respond, just let them explain their views, if they wish to do so. Thank you.

[Richan]

Unless it is with fighter pilots about capabilities and then watch the hands...lol. I'd loved to have had that conversation with my former father-in-law who was one hell of airplane driver, F-100's VN. Sorry I never did.

I'm certain, I would have liked that too. I admire "the flying aces" a lot, and love to hear their stories! No problem if not totally straight. And, I speak only for 1 european and his family, whether they like it or not, but we owe them a lot!

[tonbridgebrit]

"My problem is/was colonialism, the French wanting to reestablish its hegemony over Vietnam (and all of Indochina), and the US taking the side of the French against an independent Vietnam that had helped on the side of the Americans against the Japanese every bit as much as the French helped against the Nazis. After the Japanese pulled out and before the French moved back in, HCM had drawn up a Vietnamese constitution based on the US constitution as a Republic with protections for individual rights and freedoms. Had the US stood up to the French at that time (the US could have mounted its moral high horse against colonialism) and supported Vietnamese independence, it is my belief that HCM would not have gone to the Soviet Union for support. The whole course of history would be different and there, almost certainly, would be 3 million less dead Vietnamese, untold maimed/scarred, and the environmental holocaust associated with chemical weapons. No, the US sided with the French who, 'friends' that they are, later tried to entrap the US into using nuclear weapons against the Vietnamese at Điện Biên Phủ. The US presence/control in both South Vietnamese and Thai governments/militarys, through the American CIA, is now well documented and the war was promulgated to make money for the military/industrial complex (plus secretly fund the CIA through heroin smuggling out of the Golden Triangle) and the banks. It was not to fight against the 'boogie man' of communism. I didn't love 'love' HCM but he is worthy of respect as a nationalist fighting for a non-colonial/non-vassal Vietnam. With the election of JFK, the war against the North were going to be ended and it was only through a CIA murder/coup d'etat that LBJ, through his Gulf of Tonkin resolution, fully involved the US in a war it never intended to win. Case in point: they never bombed the dam supplying Hanoi with its electricity. Half the bombs dropped were dropped on uninhabited jungle (jobs at home to make more bombs). More tonnage of bombs were dropped on North Vietnam than were dropped by all sides during the entirety of WWII. This war was financed through banks and never a penny of tax raised to fund it. This was not a war the US wanted to win. In my opinion, Vietnam became a communist country because only communists would support them in their quest for a free and independent Vietnam. How did the same Nixon, who was fighting communism in Vietnam, make peace with communist China if communism was the evil that excused the destruction of Vietnam? Yesterday it was communism as an excuse for the US to intervene and now it is Islamic terrorism. The American CIA funded and supplied the weapons to the anti-Assad forces that have now morphed into ISIS that has invaded Iraq. The CIA is a 'self licking ice cream cone'. It creates the problem so we can have the (military) answer.

I majored in Western History at University and have studied every war from WWI to the present as they are the major shapers of the world and how power is distributed."


Hello rametindallas, I think we have miss-interpreted each other. I disagree with some of the writing that you have done, but, the above post, well, yes, I agree with a fair amount of it.
Thank you for writing.

[Richan]

The story honoring this plane that help attack the US and how the plane "destroyed F-105s and B-52s is odd. They wanted the Thais to explain how "powerful" this Mig plane was. Very odd display of bravado by the two generals.

I think, that maybe for the last 4 lines it was a fairly neutral article. No specific praise for the russian - and probably mostly russian flown - aeroplane. Maybe the vietnamese col. tried to hype it a little.

"Air Vice-Marshal Sakpinit Promthep, assistant chief of the RTAF Air Staff, said the MiG-21bis had played a major role in defending Vietnam against US attacks during the Vietnam War.

He said the fighter aircraft was able to destroy several F-105, F-4 and B-52 fighter bombers which were very powerful at that time. (MCOT online news)"

It played a major role and several "fighter bombers" were destroyed by it! Well, the significance of the MIGs role in the war is up to them to decide for themselves. And "several" means more than one. which probably is true. Historians of the war may have a more interesting story to tell.

This is about the OP, otherwise I might very well totally agree with you!

Edited July 18, 2014 by Richan

[paz]

I'm sure that Thailand did not wanted this present, but had to accept it for Buddha know which reasons.

They will have to keep on display one of the weapons that fought their traditional ally in a war that ultimately was lost. Maybe not quite a loss of face, but not even glorifying either.

[davehowden]

He said the fighter aircraft was able to destroy several F-105, F-4 and B-52 fighter bombers which were very powerful at that time. (MCOT online news)

Maybe one of you military guys can set this straight, but I thought the B52 was a strategic bomber, not a fighter bomber. And I don't remember too many North Vietnamese aircraft ever taking to the skies--at least not while the USAF was there. I could be wrong. But there should be some experts out there who know.

I think you will find that the Vietnamese air force acquitted themselves fairly well against the USAF given the difference in aircraft technology and funds available to them.

Probably their most noted success was the downing of John Sidney McCain III over Hanoi, where part of the aircraft he was in still sits in an ornamental lake.

The "Hanoi Hilton" is also worth a visit if your ever that way, mainly to see how the French treated their "colonial subjects".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain

[noendtoit]

How to get rid of your outdated obsolete junk - any suggestions what the Thais can dump on them?

How about a few concrete pillars from failed Japanese projects? A remarkable monument to the history of corruption, failed dreams and fortunes wasted...

They could put the Mig in the submarine pen. A Mig-pen.

How about giving the Vietnamese the old Thai constitution. I don't think they have one.

[BSJ]

4 pages of horse do-do. I don't know whether to congratulate you forum posters for dragging it out so long, or continue laughing??? Laughing wins!

[soalbundy]

Perhaps all you clever dicks should take a look at this before you prattle out some more inane comments?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vietnam_War_flying_aces

Hokum.

Do you actually believe the stats that North Vietnam pushed out?

Bigger fool you if you do, I would trust the stats of a communist country at war about as far as I could throw a Mig 21!

The link you posted isn't even verified.

American fighters had a far superior kill ratio to the Vietnamese, 19:3 for the F8 fighter the F4 shot down 66 Mig 21's, confirmed kills and finished the war with an 11:1 kill ratio (although it started with a much lower ratio until a machine gun was fitted for dog fighting)..

Considering that Mig 21's didn't often mix it up with US fighters but would fly in at top speed, attack bombers and keep going I don't see how the figures can be close to correct.

The North Vietnamese didn't have that many Mig 21's and used them sparingly because of the kill ratio.

I seem to remember that the USA started the war with N Vietnam with a lie, ''The North Vietnamese have attacked our surface vessels in the bay of............'' I wouldn't trust war news from any nation,the truth gets bombed first.

[tonbridgebrit]

Perhaps all you clever dicks should take a look at this before you prattle out some more inane comments?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vietnam_War_flying_aces

Hokum.

Do you actually believe the stats that North Vietnam pushed out?

Bigger fool you if you do, I would trust the stats of a communist country at war about as far as I could throw a Mig 21!

The link you posted isn't even verified.

American fighters had a far superior kill ratio to the Vietnamese, 19:3 for the F8 fighter the F4 shot down 66 Mig 21's, confirmed kills and finished the war with an 11:1 kill ratio (although it started with a much lower ratio until a machine gun was fitted for dog fighting)..

Considering that Mig 21's didn't often mix it up with US fighters but would fly in at top speed, attack bombers and keep going I don't see how the figures can be close to correct.

The North Vietnamese didn't have that many Mig 21's and used them sparingly because of the kill ratio.

I seem to remember that the USA started the war with N Vietnam with a lie, ''The North Vietnamese have attacked our surface vessels in the bay of............'' I wouldn't trust war news from any nation,the truth gets bombed first.

Yes, soalbundy, and we're suppose to accept that Washington are the good guys, and Beijing are the bad guys.

Maybe both Washington and Beijing are just trying to increase (or re-confirm) there areas of influence.

[bobfish]

Back to the topic:

Quote:" He said the fighter aircraft was able to destroy several F-105, F-4 and B-52 fighter bombers which were very powerful at that time."

Mig21 will be a great addition as a museum piece.

The vast majority of US air losses in Vietnam were to ground fire. The figures seem to vary widely, but using Wikipedia numbers, Mig21 aerial victories in Vietnam:

F105: 15 out of 282 in North Vietnam Combat [395 lost in theatre].

F4 and RF4C: 37 out of 605 NVN Combat [771 lost in theatre] For the record, F4s downed 66 Mig21s.

RF101 [unarmed]: 1

EB66-C [unarmed]: 1

F102A: 1

RA5C [unarmed]: 1

B52: 0 [zero]

[simple1]

He said the fighter aircraft was able to destroy several F-105, F-4 and B-52 fighter bombers which were very powerful at that time. (MCOT online news)

Maybe one of you military guys can set this straight, but I thought the B52 was a strategic bomber, not a fighter bomber. And I don't remember too many North Vietnamese aircraft ever taking to the skies--at least not while the USAF was there. I could be wrong. But there should be some experts out there who know.

I'm not a 'military type", but a quote from an official US Airforce site...

the VPAF had lost nearly 150 MiGs in combat to USAF fighter crews, while the USAF lost about 70 aircraft (of all types) to MiGs.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=18112

[foxteen]

Yes good present...a way to buy out and must be some interest behind. Let's not think much about guys hahaha