Gaza and Israel suffer deadliest day

Morch · July 21, 2014

You miss the point completely, but then, you don't want to get the point. Like all pro-Israelis you point blank refuse to see the immense inequity between the two sides, the huge difference in defence or attack capability, and the greatly disproportionate amount of damage/death inflicted in this tit-for-tat long-running conflict.

I totally agree with you on this point, which makes me wonder why Hamas continue day in day out to fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel, knowing that the end result can only have one possible outcome?

They are militants. Just like Thailand, there is a lot of saving "face" going on. These are ignorant, arrogant, fanatical guys, who don't want to show any weakness and cater to the extremists among the population.

Most of their leaders have been arrested, killed or have fled. So can you imagine who's left? They are more disorganized than ever and the only thing the separate factions know how to do is fire off useless rockets. Their demands aren't being met so they will continue.

here are their latest demands...as far as I am aware of..

"Hamas's demands include an end of the "war on the Gaza Strip," a complete lift of the siege on it, opening the Rafah crossing with Egypt, freedom of movement in the border areas, cancelling the buffer zone and expanding the freedom to fish 12 nautical miles from shore.

In addition, Hamas demands the release of its members who had been freed in a 2011 deal and recently re-arrested in an Israeli crackdown on the West Bank."

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/hamas-says-invited-for/1272936.html

Most of their leaders have not been arrested. Unless you are somehow mixing the Hamas operatives and leadership in

the West Bank with those in the Gaza Strip and abroad. Most of the leaders who matter are were not in the West Bank.

The Hamas is anything but disorganized, from a military point of view. The fact that they do not crumble, continue to both

launch rockets and execute operation withing the Gaza Strip and Israel seem to attest for this. As for the "various factions",

not quite sure what that means - Hamas's military wing is still coordinated, there are other independent organizations, not

necessarily under the Hamas's control, though.

The demands are intentionally high as they are not quite ready to call it quits yet and they serve as a starting bargaining

position. Pretty much the same demands before any ceasefire talks. They are less forthcoming when it comes to what they

will give in return or which assurances they will give to carry out their part.

kblaze · July 21, 2014

The only thing that is wrong is that in June there were 2 rocket attacks before the campaign to "find" the kidnapped teens.

The rocket attacks didn't escalate until Israel began its insane campaign to find the kidnapped teens. Why insane? Because they arrested 400 Palestinians (really, 400 suspects?), raided thousands of Palestinian homes and killed 5 in the process of "searching for the teens". Insane because they likely already knew they were dead as they heard the teens get shot on the phone and found the kidnappers car the next day with the blood of the teens in it. Of course this was kept from the media in order to generate more bloodlust among the pro-Israel camp during the search.

Israel's attack on Hamas for the kidnapping, which is also crazy because they had no evidence that it was ordered or that the top members even knew about it, is what triggered the huge escalation in rocket attacks. Read it for yourself.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10937514/Israel-hits-Gaza-with-air-strikes-after-bodies-of-kidnapped-teenagers-found.html

In May there were 4 rockets and 3 mortars launched. In June, there were 17 attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

There were only a few rockets, so that's alright then. Scrap those ceasefire agreements from last time.

As much as I try, can't see what difference would it made for the search whether the information regarding the kindapped

being murdered released earlier. Israel traded bodies of its dead soldiers in exchange for terrorists, in the past. The three

Israelis, dead or alive, were just as likely to be traded. The arrests were massive, yes, Insane? That's a point of view, not

an objective statement. So is the assertion that the death were kept secret to "generate more bloodlust".

Posters who think this is the only, or even main, reason for the current conflagration should probably do some reading

about other issues that drove the Hamas into this situation, most of them to do with inter-Palestinian politics and a serious

economic crisis. Links to a couple of articles on this were posted in many of the relevant topics.

You don't see what difference it would make letting the public know that the odds are overwhelming that the 3 teens were dead the whole time?

It was the chance that they were still alive that provided some sort of "justification" for the raiding and ransacking of thousands of private homes during the search. You are telling me that police and investigators don't act differently if they know the victim has already perished?

Clutch · July 21, 2014

Ulysses G, justify this then!
Can't wait for your response, you'll blame anyone BUT the real culprits!

http://m.theage.com.au/world/palestinian-boy-clings-to-paramedic--story-behind-the-viral-photo-20140721-zv5n1.html

dexterm · July 21, 2014

This is crazy.

Innocent people are dying and we have numerous posts across several threads discussing history an ancient holy books.

All Hamas has to do is stop firing rockets and Israel will stop trying to find them. That is the solution and it should happen right now.

Hamas has offered an indefinite truce many times, and Israel has always been the first to break it.

Part of the last truce was supposed to be lifting the blockade of Gaza...did Israel honor that? A big NO.

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

Edited July 21, 2014 by dexterm

up-country_sinclair · July 21, 2014

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

Despite all the Israeli propaganda, spin and lies, that's the real reason this all kicked off. Israel is killing as many people in Gaza as they can before this fact becomes common knowledge.

In my opinion, Israel has grossly overplayed its hand this time and they'll have to face the consequences.

Morch · July 21, 2014

It is rather sad that those who claim they lost 6 million of their own in the last war seem totally oblivious to the fact that in many ways they are behaving in the same style as those they stillm accuse and have continued accusing of geonocide.

Note that those of different ethic persusions are and were included in that 6 million figure.

Hypocrisy is the word that springs to mind concerning Zionist actions, note the word ''Zionist'' as opposed to Irsraeli's or Jews.

Most Jewish Israelis will define themselves as Zionists, although their definitions of what this means may greatly

defer. For example, voting for one of the pro-peace parties does not preclude someone from being defined as a

Zionist, and on the same note many of the IDF soldiers would not necessarily be right wing voters at all.

Sort of like asking Arab Israelis about being Palestinian.

Some distinctions are not exactly that clear when one gets a close up look.

dexterm · July 21, 2014

There was never such thing as " Palestinian " entity, nation or country, EVER, those people that were

in the land of than called Palestine were nomads and migrant workers brought to this land to work,

by people who built the country, there is no mention in the Quran of Jerusalem even once,

The Belfour proclamation of 1948 gave the Jews and Arabs their own land to live and proper

but the Arabs of than didn't like to share the land with any one and started a war of attrition that led

to the war of liberation in 1956, and since than, there war after war after war, until today..

You seem to be confusing the 1917 British Balfour declaration with the UN Partition plan of 1948.

What right did the British, before they had even won World War 1, have to give away land to strangers 1000s of miles away without asking the existing inhabitants first?

In the 1917 Balfour Declaration the British stated...

“ His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people [whatever that means..no-one seems to know], and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”

I don't think the creation of 5 million Palestinian refugees was part of the British intention.

There is no such thing as the Jewish people.

They are a religion, not a race.

In the 21st century you cannot claim ownership of a country on the strength of a book of popular fiction and hearing voices from imaginary supernatural friends.

Morch · July 21, 2014

Israel stole Palestine by hook and by crook. The Zionist steal more and more land from Palestine, bulldoze hundreds if Palestinian villages, kill men women and children, all the time claiming that the jews are the victims.

The true terrorist is Israel.

Stop the genocide of Palestine.

Israel was founded as per a UN resolution. The same one which called for the creation of Palestine.

Was that theft? And if so, why do the Palestinians now wish to go back to these resolutions?

More land taken? Where? Gaza Strip was handed back, the West Bank, where things are trickier, is

not seeing much further land grabs for some time now.

Houses bulldozed, yes. And it is definitely wrong (not to mention useless). But hundreds of villages, no.

Genocide? What genocide? Where? Are there massively less Palestinians now in the Gaza Strip and

the West Bank? Most figures show population is on the rise and that some areas are getting overcrowded.

Doesn't seem to support this claim.

dexterm · July 21, 2014

Ulysses G, justify this then!
Can't wait for your response, you'll blame anyone BUT the real culprits!

http://m.theage.com.au/world/palestinian-boy-clings-to-paramedic--story-behind-the-viral-photo-20140721-zv5n1.html

Truly a war crime.

Morch · July 21, 2014

There was never such thing as " Palestinian " entity, nation or country, EVER, those people that were

in the land of than called Palestine were nomads and migrant workers brought to this land to work,

by people who built the country, there is no mention in the Quran of Jerusalem even once,

The Belfour proclamation of 1948 gave the Jews and Arabs their own land to live and proper

but the Arabs of than didn't like to share the land with any one and started a war of attrition that led

to the war of liberation in 1956, and since than, there war after war after war, until today..

The Balfour declaration was in 1917.

The UN partition plan was in 1947.

The Israeli deceleration of independence and war was in 1948.

In 1956 there was a war between Israel and Egypt, but nothing to do with liberation.

up-country_sinclair · July 21, 2014

Ulysses G, justify this then!
Can't wait for your response, you'll blame anyone BUT the real culprits!

http://m.theage.com.au/world/palestinian-boy-clings-to-paramedic--story-behind-the-viral-photo-20140721-zv5n1.html

Truly a war crime.

Palestinian leadership needs to submit its application for membership in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court immediately.

Israel must be brought to justice for its crimes.

Morch · July 21, 2014

The only thing that is wrong is that in June there were 2 rocket attacks before the campaign to "find" the kidnapped teens.

The rocket attacks didn't escalate until Israel began its insane campaign to find the kidnapped teens. Why insane? Because they arrested 400 Palestinians (really, 400 suspects?), raided thousands of Palestinian homes and killed 5 in the process of "searching for the teens". Insane because they likely already knew they were dead as they heard the teens get shot on the phone and found the kidnappers car the next day with the blood of the teens in it. Of course this was kept from the media in order to generate more bloodlust among the pro-Israel camp during the search.

Israel's attack on Hamas for the kidnapping, which is also crazy because they had no evidence that it was ordered or that the top members even knew about it, is what triggered the huge escalation in rocket attacks. Read it for yourself.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10937514/Israel-hits-Gaza-with-air-strikes-after-bodies-of-kidnapped-teenagers-found.html

In May there were 4 rockets and 3 mortars launched. In June, there were 17 attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

There were only a few rockets, so that's alright then. Scrap those ceasefire agreements from last time.

As much as I try, can't see what difference would it made for the search whether the information regarding the kindapped

being murdered released earlier. Israel traded bodies of its dead soldiers in exchange for terrorists, in the past. The three

Israelis, dead or alive, were just as likely to be traded. The arrests were massive, yes, Insane? That's a point of view, not

an objective statement. So is the assertion that the death were kept secret to "generate more bloodlust".

Posters who think this is the only, or even main, reason for the current conflagration should probably do some reading

about other issues that drove the Hamas into this situation, most of them to do with inter-Palestinian politics and a serious

economic crisis. Links to a couple of articles on this were posted in many of the relevant topics.

You don't see what difference it would make letting the public know that the odds are overwhelming that the 3 teens were dead the whole time?

It was the chance that they were still alive that provided some sort of "justification" for the raiding and ransacking of thousands of private homes during the search. You are telling me that police and investigators don't act differently if they know the victim has already perished?

I am not sure if the reason this was kept from the public (not very successfully it seems, many reporters knew and true rumors can now be traced back on social media), or if there were additional operational reasons. But I am pretty sure that the public outrage evident when they news were released (and its subsequent tragic murder of the Arab boy) would probably have been worse. This could have been, in all probability, also manifested during the search, perhaps making things worse than they were.

kblaze · July 21, 2014

They are militants. Just like Thailand, there is a lot of saving "face" going on. These are ignorant, arrogant, fanatical guys, who don't want to show any weakness and cater to the extremists among the population.

Most of their leaders have been arrested, killed or have fled. So can you imagine who's left? They are more disorganized than ever and the only thing the separate factions know how to do is fire off useless rockets. Their demands aren't being met so they will continue.

here are their latest demands...as far as I am aware of..

"Hamas's demands include an end of the "war on the Gaza Strip," a complete lift of the siege on it, opening the Rafah crossing with Egypt, freedom of movement in the border areas, cancelling the buffer zone and expanding the freedom to fish 12 nautical miles from shore.

In addition, Hamas demands the release of its members who had been freed in a 2011 deal and recently re-arrested in an Israeli crackdown on the West Bank."

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/hamas-says-invited-for/1272936.html

Most of their leaders have not been arrested. Unless you are somehow mixing the Hamas operatives and leadership in

the West Bank with those in the Gaza Strip and abroad. Most of the leaders who matter are were not in the West Bank.

The Hamas is anything but disorganized, from a military point of view. The fact that they do not crumble, continue to both

launch rockets and execute operation withing the Gaza Strip and Israel seem to attest for this. As for the "various factions",

not quite sure what that means - Hamas's military wing is still coordinated, there are other independent organizations, not

necessarily under the Hamas's control, though.

The demands are intentionally high as they are not quite ready to call it quits yet and they serve as a starting bargaining

position. Pretty much the same demands before any ceasefire talks. They are less forthcoming when it comes to what they

will give in return or which assurances they will give to carry out their part.

I'm sorry I was assuming that among the nearly 3,000 attacks Israel has conducted thus far in the current operation (according to Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon), the several hundred or so "core" Hamas members would have been in shambles. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas)

Unless of course the 3,000 attacks have been hitting the wrong targets....no no thats unthinkable.

Edited July 21, 2014 by kblaze

Morch · July 21, 2014

This is crazy.

Innocent people are dying and we have numerous posts across several threads discussing history an ancient holy books.

All Hamas has to do is stop firing rockets and Israel will stop trying to find them. That is the solution and it should happen right now.

Hamas has offered an indefinite truce many times, and Israel has always been the first to break it.

Part of the last truce was supposed to be lifting the blockade of Gaza...did Israel honor that? A big NO.

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

No.

Hamas did not offer this "many times". There were a few offers made over the years, usually when Hamas was at a low

point or hard pressed by Israel.

These offers were, for the most part, limited for 10 years (there is a religious explanation to this, but it is not germane to

the topic), although one was indeed indefinite (in the sense that Hamas could make it void whenever he felt like). All of

the truces offered were not meant to lead toward peace, or toward recognizing Israel, but more as breather until Hamas

could pick up the fight again. There were usually extra demands such as immediate retreat to the 1967 borders and an

acceptance of the Palestinian Right of Return.

Israel did not accept most of these truces, so not quite sure how it was "always" the first to break them. Not sure where

did you get the notion that Israel agreed to a complete lift of the blockade, pretty sure this is not quite accurate.

The rest is just the same old unrelated bit you add to every other post - I'll decline to comment again. my cut and paste

skills aren't as advanced, it would seem.

Morch · July 21, 2014

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

Despite all the Israeli propaganda, spin and lies, that's the real reason this all kicked off. Israel is killing as many people in Gaza as they can before this fact becomes common knowledge.

In my opinion, Israel has grossly overplayed its hand this time and they'll have to face the consequences.

Is it propaganda that there were attacks from Gaza before that?

Is it propaganda that there were others issues (political and economic) driving the Hamas toward clashing with Israel?

Is it propaganda that the killers had Hamas affiliations?

Sure do seem to live in a simple world. Most complex events do not necessarily have a single reason, but an array of

factors and causes. I'm aware this is hard to grasp and often makes things a bit confusing but do make an effort to at

least read a bit before repeating the same old over and over again.

dexterm · July 21, 2014

Hamas didn't fire rockets (June 28) in the present round of violence until Israel had spent 2 weeks imprisoning 300 Hamas members, destroying Palestinian homes, and loosing air strikes on Gaza on the pretext of looking for 3 kidnapped Israeli teenagers, who they knew were already dead.(June 12)

Why do you insist on continually posting incorrect information, even though you are often caught? Rockets and mortars have been fired from Gaza throughout every single month of 2014 including all of June - starting on June 1. Hamas was shooting rockets at Israeli civilians both before the teenagers were murdered AND afterwards.

2 rockets were fired by Islamic Jihad both landing in fields without any injuries..one on June 1, and one on June 11.

Wrong again. There were rockets fired on: June 1, June 11, June 14, June 15, June 16, June 18, June 19, June 20, June 21, June 24 and June 27. All before your claim that the Palestinians did not start firing until June 28. Once again, your version of events is fallacious.

11 June: Israeli air strike kills two Palestinians, including one child.

The Israeli teenagers murdered on 12 June. Israel began its collective punishment and provocation that day.

The first Salvos 28 June http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/07/14/3459100/timeline-how-war-returned-to-gaza/

Morch · July 21, 2014

Ulysses G, justify this then!
Can't wait for your response, you'll blame anyone BUT the real culprits!

http://m.theage.com.au/world/palestinian-boy-clings-to-paramedic--story-behind-the-viral-photo-20140721-zv5n1.html

Truly a war crime.

Palestinian leadership needs to submit its application for membership in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court immediately.

Israel must be brought to justice for its crimes.

And which Palestinian leadership would that be? The Hamas's? The PA's?

kblaze · July 21, 2014

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

Despite all the Israeli propaganda, spin and lies, that's the real reason this all kicked off. Israel is killing as many people in Gaza as they can before this fact becomes common knowledge.

In my opinion, Israel has grossly overplayed its hand this time and they'll have to face the consequences.

Is it propaganda that there were attacks from Gaza before that?

Is it propaganda that there were others issues (political and economic) driving the Hamas toward clashing with Israel?

Is it propaganda that the killers had Hamas affiliations?

Sure do seem to live in a simple world. Most complex events do not necessarily have a single reason, but an array of

factors and causes. I'm aware this is hard to grasp and often makes things a bit confusing but do make an effort to at

least read a bit before repeating the same old over and over again.

I agree with all your points above, Morch. Those are indeed facts.

Rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel for years.

Gaza has been in an economic stranglehold for years (according to independent observers).

The killers had Hamas affiliations.

And this is a real question because I simply don't know this; has Israel proved that Hamas leaders knew/approved of the kidnapping beforehand? Or were these 3 members acting on their own?

dexterm · July 21, 2014

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

Despite all the Israeli propaganda, spin and lies, that's the real reason this all kicked off. Israel is killing as many people in Gaza as they can before this fact becomes common knowledge.

In my opinion, Israel has grossly overplayed its hand this time and they'll have to face the consequences.

Is it propaganda that there were attacks from Gaza before that?

Is it propaganda that there were others issues (political and economic) driving the Hamas toward clashing with Israel?

Is it propaganda that the killers had Hamas affiliations?

Sure do seem to live in a simple world. Most complex events do not necessarily have a single reason, but an array of

factors and causes. I'm aware this is hard to grasp and often makes things a bit confusing but do make an effort to at

least read a bit before repeating the same old over and over again.

So Israel can murder 100s of innocents miles away in Gaza because 2 psychopaths acting independently murdered 3 Israelis in Hebron.

>>Most complex events do not necessarily have a single reason

..tell that to Netanyahu. 2 "suspects" still not arrested or interrogated = whole of Hamas leadership guilty, So lets bomb Gaza.

No need to be patronizing..on other forums that would count as a flame.

Morch · July 21, 2014

They are militants. Just like Thailand, there is a lot of saving "face" going on. These are ignorant, arrogant, fanatical guys, who don't want to show any weakness and cater to the extremists among the population.

Most of their leaders have been arrested, killed or have fled. So can you imagine who's left? They are more disorganized than ever and the only thing the separate factions know how to do is fire off useless rockets. Their demands aren't being met so they will continue.

here are their latest demands...as far as I am aware of..

"Hamas's demands include an end of the "war on the Gaza Strip," a complete lift of the siege on it, opening the Rafah crossing with Egypt, freedom of movement in the border areas, cancelling the buffer zone and expanding the freedom to fish 12 nautical miles from shore.

In addition, Hamas demands the release of its members who had been freed in a 2011 deal and recently re-arrested in an Israeli crackdown on the West Bank."

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/hamas-says-invited-for/1272936.html

Most of their leaders have not been arrested. Unless you are somehow mixing the Hamas operatives and leadership in

the West Bank with those in the Gaza Strip and abroad. Most of the leaders who matter are were not in the West Bank.

The Hamas is anything but disorganized, from a military point of view. The fact that they do not crumble, continue to both

launch rockets and execute operation withing the Gaza Strip and Israel seem to attest for this. As for the "various factions",

not quite sure what that means - Hamas's military wing is still coordinated, there are other independent organizations, not

necessarily under the Hamas's control, though.

The demands are intentionally high as they are not quite ready to call it quits yet and they serve as a starting bargaining

position. Pretty much the same demands before any ceasefire talks. They are less forthcoming when it comes to what they

will give in return or which assurances they will give to carry out their part.

I'm sorry I was assuming that among the nearly 3,000 attacks Israel has conducted thus far in the current operation (according to Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon), the several hundred or so "core" Hamas members would have been in shambles. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas)

Unless of course the 3,000 attacks have been hitting the wrong targets....no no thats unthinkable.

Israel did not start the ground move until very recently, so obviously no mass arrests in the Gaza Strip before that.

As the escalation in hostilities was not sharp (in the sense of full blown military operation and air raids) but gradual,

many of the Hamas leaders did manage to get underground, and into relative safety. Some were indeed killed by

air raids, but not as to cause the Hamas to be disorganized the way you described.

There were Hamas members killed, yes. Not sure how the figured stand currently and whether they are all that reliable.

Those would not all be leaders, but mostly rank and file. A lot of the attacks were not specifically aimed at killing Hamas

people but directed at facilities and weapons.

There's quite enough information to use when bashing Israel, don't see the need to bother with dreaming up stuff.

Steely Dan · July 21, 2014

Ulysses G, justify this then!
Can't wait for your response, you'll blame anyone BUT the real culprits!

http://m.theage.com.au/world/palestinian-boy-clings-to-paramedic--story-behind-the-viral-photo-20140721-zv5n1.html

Truly a war crime.

Palestinian leadership needs to submit its application for membership in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court immediately.

Israel must be brought to justice for its crimes.

There's a slight problem with that as all the Palestinian leadership know only too well.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/7-reasons-why-the-palestinians-dont-occupy-the-moral-high-ground/?singlepage=true

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

kblaze · July 21, 2014

Palestinian leadership needs to submit its application for membership in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court immediately.

Israel must be brought to justice for its crimes.
There's a slight problem with that as all the Palestinian leadership know only too well.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/7-reasons-why-the-palestinians-dont-occupy-the-moral-high-ground/?singlepage=true

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Nice source there. Robert Spencer from PJ Media. Director of "Jihad Watch", and author of "The Truth about Muhammad"

also this nice little bit from his wikipedia page;

"Spencer co-founded Stop Islamization of America (SIOA) and the Freedom Defense Initiative (FDI) with Pamela Geller in 2010. Both organizations are designated as hate groups by the Anti-defamation league^[31] and the Southern Poverty Law Center."

"Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR) listed Spencer as a "Smearcaster" in an article in 2008, stating that "by selectively ignoring inconvenient Islamic texts and commentaries, Spencer concludes that Islam is innately extremist and violent""

Morch · July 21, 2014

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

Despite all the Israeli propaganda, spin and lies, that's the real reason this all kicked off. Israel is killing as many people in Gaza as they can before this fact becomes common knowledge.

In my opinion, Israel has grossly overplayed its hand this time and they'll have to face the consequences.

Is it propaganda that there were attacks from Gaza before that?

Is it propaganda that there were others issues (political and economic) driving the Hamas toward clashing with Israel?

Is it propaganda that the killers had Hamas affiliations?

Sure do seem to live in a simple world. Most complex events do not necessarily have a single reason, but an array of

factors and causes. I'm aware this is hard to grasp and often makes things a bit confusing but do make an effort to at

least read a bit before repeating the same old over and over again.

I agree with all your points above, Morch. Those are indeed facts.

Rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel for years.

Gaza has been in an economic stranglehold for years (according to independent observers).

The killers had Hamas affiliations.

And this is a real question because I simply don't know this; has Israel proved that Hamas leaders knew/approved of the kidnapping beforehand? Or were these 3 members acting on their own?

There were attacks from Gaza on the same month and on the month before that. The understanding after the previous (2012) round of hostilities were that there wouldn't be any and that Hamas is to see to that. The time frame referenced is not years, in this instance.

Economic issues plaguing the Hamas are only partly to do with Israel and the blockade. What I was referring to, which was linked here and on other topics quite a few times, has to do with Hamas's inability to pay salaries to officials, and the PA's refusal to transfer the funds (or rather, pick up the tab) before resolving certain issues to do with reconciliation. This in turn is concerned to various inter-Palestinian political issues and power struggles, but seems like anything that is not a short "Israel did it" does not apply.

There was no claim, to my knowledge, that Hamas leadership was directly involved in the kidnapping. Not saying that the claim could not have been made by someone, Israeli politicians are about about as good as Thais when presented with a microphone and airtime. The justification used was more along the lines that Hamas leaders continually incited members to execute kidnapping operations and praised the rewards brought about by such actions.

I think (and bear with me for not having a two liner explanation) what happened was that Netanyahu thought he'd get a few points with voters playing tough with a limited attack on Gaza, then killers would be underhanded and things going back to "normal". As often happens, didn't work out as planned - his right wing partners wanted more action, there was no obvious quick success on either front, and when Hamas really got into it (again, they have their own agenda) things escalated. Both sides playing it by ear and changing their reasoning as they go along. Same old.

That the killers are Hamas, yes, that's quite obvious. Rouge clan or not, it sounds like a bit of Thai lakorn when reading local news. Personally, I don't think that they got any orders as such, but were inspired to have a go. Motivations could be manifold, not venturing a guess on a single one.

Morch · July 21, 2014

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

Despite all the Israeli propaganda, spin and lies, that's the real reason this all kicked off. Israel is killing as many people in Gaza as they can before this fact becomes common knowledge.

In my opinion, Israel has grossly overplayed its hand this time and they'll have to face the consequences.

Is it propaganda that there were attacks from Gaza before that?

Is it propaganda that there were others issues (political and economic) driving the Hamas toward clashing with Israel?

Is it propaganda that the killers had Hamas affiliations?

Sure do seem to live in a simple world. Most complex events do not necessarily have a single reason, but an array of

factors and causes. I'm aware this is hard to grasp and often makes things a bit confusing but do make an effort to at

least read a bit before repeating the same old over and over again.

So Israel can murder 100s of innocents miles away in Gaza because 2 psychopaths acting independently murdered 3 Israelis in Hebron.

>>Most complex events do not necessarily have a single reason

..tell that to Netanyahu. 2 "suspects" still not arrested or interrogated = whole of Hamas leadership guilty, So lets bomb Gaza.

No need to be patronizing..on other forums that would count as a flame.

"So..." - I don't see that I claimed anything regarding justification or about Israel's right to do anything.

"tell that to..." - Not your messenger boy, not on speaking terms with Netanyahu. Was pointing out that

this is what you, and other posters seem to claim - that this event is the sole reason for this whole mess.

This is TVF - there's only one poster who can't be patronized and he usually hangs on the Thai News section.

siampolee · July 21, 2014

In response to the comment that the Zionist or Jews never declared war on any state perhaps this link might help explain that nasty little spat spanning 1939-1945.

Hardly the innocents as claimed are they and still their war games continue

http://rense.com/general84/declare.htm

boomerangutang · July 21, 2014

World public opinion in firmly on the side of the poor occupants of Gaza and this conflict will heighten animosity to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. We need more economic and trade boycotts.

Some side with the Palestinian cause. Others don't. Are we going to confer ownership of real estate on the basis of public opinion polls?

They are a religion, not a race. In the 21st century you cannot claim ownership of a country on the strength of a book of popular fiction and hearing voices from imaginary supernatural friends.

There are all sorts of ways to take possession of countries. Every situation is unique. China wants Taiwan. China took Tibet. Iraq wanted Kuwait. Palestinians want Israel. Israel had the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights for awhile in recent times, ....then gave them away. Every situation is unique. The 21st Century may be unique in some ways, but might still prevails over less mighty. Tibet is a prime example.

ggold · July 21, 2014

Ulysses G, justify this then!
Can't wait for your response, you'll blame anyone BUT the real culprits!

http://m.theage.com.au/world/palestinian-boy-clings-to-paramedic--story-behind-the-viral-photo-20140721-zv5n1.html

Truly a war crime.

Palestinian leadership needs to submit its application for membership in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court immediately.

Israel must be brought to justice for its crimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjzS27ylCZ8

ggold · July 21, 2014

In response to the comment that the Zionist or Jews never declared war on any state perhaps this link might help explain that nasty little spat spanning 1939-1945.

Hardly the innocents as claimed are they and still their war games continue

http://rense.com/general84/declare.htm

To Put some context to you're link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf#cite_note-6

Hitler used the main thesis of "the Jewish peril", which posits a Jewish conspiracy to gain world leadership

Mein Kampf was written in 1925

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_boycott_of_German_goods

The Jewish boycott of German goods refers to one of the international Jewish responses to the policies of the Nazis.

It was hardly a war more a boycott.

Edited July 21, 2014 by ggold

Scott · July 21, 2014

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.

ggold · July 21, 2014

Why do you insist on continually posting incorrect information, even though you are often caught? Rockets and mortars have been fired from Gaza throughout every single month of 2014 including all of June - starting on June 1. Hamas was shooting rockets at Israeli civilians both before the teenagers were murdered AND afterwards.

2 rockets were fired by Islamic Jihad both landing in fields without any injuries..one on June 1, and one on June 11.

Wrong again. There were rockets fired on: June 1, June 11, June 14, June 15, June 16, June 18, June 19, June 20, June 21, June 24 and June 27. All before your claim that the Palestinians did not start firing until June 28. Once again, your version of events is fallacious.

11 June: Israeli air strike kills two Palestinians, including one child.

The Israeli teenagers murdered on 12 June. Israel began its collective punishment and provocation that day.

The first Salvos 28 June http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/07/14/3459100/timeline-how-war-returned-to-gaza/

so you can't deny that rockets were being fired from Gaza since beginning of June?

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