Flight MH17 possibly shot by mistake

[Pralaad]

Does anyone really think we will know the truth ?

If it was Ukrainian military, what would the headlines be ?

American backed Ukrainian forces shot down civilian airline?

Not exactly what US would want to be associated with, so will insist it was The rebels yet again no evidence at all.

Just days ago, US made statements, US knows Russia trained and helped, where now the tune has changed, but again no evidence at all and despite US calling for truce , Ukrainian military keeps intensifying bombardment.

Total destruction of the area does destroy all the evidence. Edited July 23, 2014 by Pralaad

[catweazle]

War is a mistake

Weaponry is a mistake

Killing is a mistake

Human is a mistake

 

R.I.P to the victims and families.

 

Brain cancer to the one who pulled the trigger...

Edited July 23, 2014 by catweazle

[F430murci]

Does anyone really think we will know the truth ?

If it was Ukrainian military, what would the headlines be ?

American backed Ukrainian forces shot down civilian airline? .

As to question 1: Perhaps no one will ever know for sure who pushed the button. It is also pretty irrelevant as people like you would still cast doubt even if a Russian solider came forward and admitted to pushing the button. It is irrational Russian denial and defensive posture that is creating unnecessary divisiveness.



As to question 2: I have no doubt the US would condemn Ukraine or anyone who was found to be responsible. US does not have nearly as much invested as Russia.

Candidly, US has very little vested in this conflict except to the extent it may cause broader conflicts or destabilization of the entire region. US citizens don't carry animosity toward Russian citizens and do not project the actions of Russia government on to its people.

It is unfortunate that Russia propaganda creates such hatred or animosity toward American people who don't want any of this. The hatred and anger serves no one.

[F430murci]

War is a mistake
Weaponry is a mistake
Killing is a mistake
Human is a mistake
 
R.I.P to the victims and families.
 
Brain cancer to the one who pulled the trigger...

Yeah, I don't think Putin or anyone rational would intentionally do harm to a civilian airliner. Unfortunately, conflicts like these result in advanced weaponry systems being placed into the hands of those who care little about who they harm. Messed up world we live in.

[Pattszero]

Methinks the good ole' US of A are rowing back cos they've realized the consequences of calling out Putin. 

 

Dark diplomacy afoot. 

[F430murci]

Methinks the good ole' US of A are rowing back cos they've realized the consequences of calling out Putin. 
 
Dark diplomacy afoot. 

What does it serve? Europe is too dependent upon Russia for energy at the present to take any hard core stances against Russia. Even if Putin pushed the button himself, are we going to blow up the world over this?

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.   The US/Iranian air disaster has been adequately covered.   It is off-topic. 

[poweratradio]

Pretty bloomin' awful "mistake" - but very well aimed.

War is hell...albeit very profitable $$$$$

[F430murci]

And US stepped up and paid for its mistake. So US and world cannot condemn and criticize a horrible incident that happened last week because of a horrible accident how long ago? More nutter info war mentality.
 
The USA stepped up and admitted what it did because it couldn't do anything other than admit it. Call it what you like but a mistake it was certainly not. Ill trained and undisciplined rebels shooting down a plane is one thing but highly trained American forces doing the same thing isn't in the same league.  The plane they shot down was not in a war zone nor was it any threat to the vessel that shot it out of the sky.
The fact it happened a while a go makes it OK by some logic ? It happened during the cold war again makes it OK ? The fact it simply threw money at the relatives for it to all go away quickly makes it all OK ? Or is all the above more of your " Nutter war mentality "
​You are no doubt one of those that thinks the USA bears no responsibility for the state of Iraq and Afghanistan either. 
What happened to this plane was a tragedy but it is being used to stir up trouble in the region instead of trying to calm things down

You are incorrect. I have always been vocal about Bush Jr's and the US invading Iraq and destabilizing that country based on bad info or improper motives. I also think 655 was awful, but I do not believe it was intentional. I am also not included to think MH17 was intentional.

That said, I still don't abide by theory that US cannot condem or criticize the downing of MH17 just because US shot down 655 in 1988. Seems like you and others are implying what happened to MH17 is somehow okay because US screwed up in past.

Jeez man, whatta want US to do over 655? Blow itself up? That would not being victims bsck eitger. Cannot undo what is done.

[lovetotravel]

Does anyone really think we will know the truth ?

If it was Ukrainian military, what would the headlines be ?

American backed Ukrainian forces shot down civilian airline?

Not exactly what US would want to be associated with, so will insist it was The rebels yet again no evidence at all.

Just days ago, US made statements, US knows Russia trained and helped, where now the tune has changed, but again no evidence at all and despite US calling for truce , Ukrainian military keeps intensifying bombardment.

Total destruction of the area does destroy all the evidence.

Please show a link where the US now says Russia is not involved.  And no Russian media.  Independent sources only.  

 

I've not seen any evidence of the Ukraine army shelling the crash site nor destroying evidence.  But plenty of videos showing Rebels all over the crash site.  Removal of bodies is well documented on the internet.  This should only be done by crash site investigators.

[tonypace02]

 

'"We've all seen mistakes in the past,"...' Definitely a source of comfort to the grieving relatives.

I doubt grieving relatives are as concerned about whether an accident or intentional act as many obsessive types on here with no dog in the fight.

 

Agree 100%. This is Malaysia's fight with support from Australia, who lost more than a few passengers. Americans Go Home!

[Emster23]

  You give a bunch of macho, ignorant vodka swilling thugs a hi tech weapon and what other result could be expected? You don't sanitize a crime scene if you are innocent. You don't tamper with evidence, prevent investigators from doing their jobs if you have nothing to hide. I am pretty sure it was an accident, but it was an accident waiting to happen. There were four other airliners using that airspace at the time. This whole wanky notion that it was some sort of set up by Washington is absurd to the max.

 You should visit the Tass website and be amazed at what Russians think the world will believe.

[Asiantravel]

 

Something of this magnitude is *never* a mistake. And the presstitute lapdog media (along with crony politicians in the U.K. and Australia) has been selling Washington's lie from the moment this atrocity took place. In fact, there is quite solid evidence (a prepared video whose code shows it was ready *before* the incident) that this is another false flag act orchestrated by Washington to drag Russia into the Ukrainian conflict. The Ukrainians lied about not having Buks in the region and the Americans will not provide any evidence from satellites that were directly above the plane at the time of the explosion.
 
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/21/guilt-insinuation-paul-craig-roberts/
 
People love to spread around 'information', parroting what all the others are saying, without ever needing any shred of evidence.
 
A mistake? Please. 
 
I'm not a fan of Putin, but he's not stupid. That's why it's hard to get him involved in a conflict that could get oil in the hands of the greedy American establishment. False flag. Wouldn't be the first time in history.

Haha, Loptr . . . here is one of your guys. Paul Craig Roberts may actually exceed Alex Jones in terms of nutty or general crackpot!!!

 

 

 

You are meant to be a lawyer. is this how you behave when your adversary presents their case in court? Do you call them nutcases?

 

 Come on as a lawyer and an aviation expert and everything else please answer  why doesn’t Washington release its photos from its satellite?

 

The only nutcases around here are those that believe anything that comes from the Administration regarding this issue.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Asiantravel]

 

Where is the US evidence that separatists carried out the attack....? The usual misinformation and lies:

http://youtu.be/oQRvINebeok

 

Who needs the NSA and the CIA when you have facebook screenshots and youtube videos. How pathetic...

 

 

oh it's even better than that!   State Department Spokeswoman Marie Harfclaiming Monday that the State Department’s certainty of Russian involvement in the apparent downing of the plane was " based on open information which is basically common sense, right – we know where it was fired from, we know who has this weapon "

 

 

Who needs evidence — it’s “common sense”! Right?

 

 

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2014/07/229550.htm

 

[capcc76]

  You give a bunch of macho, ignorant vodka swilling thugs a hi tech weapon and what other result could be expected? You don't sanitize a crime scene if you are innocent. You don't tamper with evidence, prevent investigators from doing their jobs if you have nothing to hide. I am pretty sure it was an accident, but it was an accident waiting to happen. There were four other airliners using that airspace at the time. This whole wanky notion that it was some sort of set up by Washington is absurd to the max.

 You should visit the Tass website and be amazed at what Russians think the world will believe.

 

Sadly, vodka may be a more valid explanation than accidental or intentional.

Edited July 23, 2014 by capcc76

[F430murci]

 

 

Something of this magnitude is *never* a mistake. And the presstitute lapdog media (along with crony politicians in the U.K. and Australia) has been selling Washington's lie from the moment this atrocity took place. In fact, there is quite solid evidence (a prepared video whose code shows it was ready *before* the incident) that this is another false flag act orchestrated by Washington to drag Russia into the Ukrainian conflict. The Ukrainians lied about not having Buks in the region and the Americans will not provide any evidence from satellites that were directly above the plane at the time of the explosion.
 
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/21/guilt-insinuation-paul-craig-roberts/
 
People love to spread around 'information', parroting what all the others are saying, without ever needing any shred of evidence.
 
A mistake? Please. 
 
I'm not a fan of Putin, but he's not stupid. That's why it's hard to get him involved in a conflict that could get oil in the hands of the greedy American establishment. False flag. Wouldn't be the first time in history.

Haha, Loptr . . . here is one of your guys. Paul Craig Roberts may actually exceed Alex Jones in terms of nutty or general crackpot!!!

 

 

 

You are meant to be a lawyer. is this how you behave when your adversary presents their case in court? Do you call them nutcases?

 

 Come on as a lawyer and an aviation expert and everything else please answer  why doesn’t Washington release its photos from its satellite?

 

The only nutcases around here are those that believe anything that comes from the Administration regarding this issue.

 

 

Lol, luckily bar applicants have to submit all psychological records so the nutcases are generally vetted out. Paul Craig Roberts definitely qualifies as "nutty" though and his world coming to end articles are entertainment. Too bad some people take stuff like this seriously and I am amazed that people actually do.

As far as Obama, I have been pretty outspoken about taking little or nothing he says seriously. He is a double talking fool that is in way over his head.

I think MOST of America takes what he says with skepticism, but he has been too busy traveling around raising money and campaigning to even address this stuff. Most media sources are criticizing Obama for being woefully detached from these issues as of late which is contrary to those on here that think US is vested and/or rally cares that much about Ukraine and these issues.

----------

 

U.S. Senator John McCain has blasted President Barack Obama for going 'A-W-O-L' and utterly failing to show leadership in the wake of the attack on Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in which 298 were killed yesterday.

 

Instead of heading back to Washington to discuss the crash with his national security team and address the global consequences of the possibility that it was caused by a missile attack launched by pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine, Obama traveled to New York City.

 

He went to New York hours after devoting just 40 seconds to the tragedy at the beginning of a jokey 16-minute speech on transportation in Delaware.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2697352/McCain-blasts-Obama-going-fundraiser-showing-leadership-MH17-tragedy.html#ixzz38JEFLLBU
 

[GentlemanJim]

Where is the US evidence that separatists carried out the attack....? The usual misinformation and lies:

http://youtu.be/oQRvINebeok

I just watched the video and thought it has to be another youtube spoof! I have never witnessed such an appalling press conference with such an ill prepared press officer!

 

Can any US citizens advise us if they believe this actually puts the USA in a credible light? "who did this - well it's common sense" 

[Proofreader]

Please show a link where the US now says Russia is not involved.  And no Russian media.  Independent sources only.  

 

I've not seen any evidence of the Ukraine army shelling the crash site nor destroying evidence.  But plenty of videos showing Rebels all over the crash site.  Removal of bodies is well documented on the internet.  This should only be done by crash site investigators.

 

Here's the link: U.S. Officials: No Evidence Of Direct Russian Link To Malaysia Plane Crash

Here's some more food for thought

Regarding the videos of rebels removing the bodies - you would probably leave them to rot for several days under the scorching sun while Kiev authorities delayed sending in the group of Western and Malaysian experts under the false pretext that the site of the crash was not safe for them. Those who finally got there - as well as OSСE group of experts onsite - admitted that putting the bodies in the refrigerator cars was the right thing to do.    

[Johpa]

I did find (a few days ago) a SAM launcher simulator - not a BUK but similar. It's entirely easy for an inexperienced person to lock on to a target and launch ordinance. However, the same inexperienced operator will also in no doubt not be able identify any targets - presumably under pressure from superiors....

 

Yes, most simulators assume that all the pre-checks have been done and that all the technical calibrations have been made within the limits stated within the operating manuals.  I don't believe for one moment that this missile could have been launched without at least one Russian advisor in attendance.

[Proofreader]

I just watched the video and thought it has to be another youtube spoof! I have never witnessed such an appalling press conference with such an ill prepared press officer!

 

 

Can any US citizens advise us if they believe this actually puts the USA in a credible light? "who did this - well it's common sense" 

 

With a combined budget for CIA, NSA etc. of  USD60+ billion it is really a shame to rely on twitter and facebook postings as a source of a "hard, undeniable evidence"  This Barf chick is just a pale copy of Jen Psaki who was much more fun to watch.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Proofreader

[doctorproc156]

U.S. intelligence officials suggest that the person who fired the missile that downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 may have been “a defector” from the Ukrainian army, an apparent attempt to explain why some CIA analysts thought satellite images revealed men in Ukrainian army uniforms manning the missile battery, 

 

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/22/the-mystery-of-a-ukrainian-army-defector/

 

So first they said there are no links to Russia for the missile shooting and now they are using the word "defector" to explain why it was men in Ukrainian military uniform manning what would appear to be a Ukrainian military missile battery. This whole thing stinks of a cover up and a false flag and now NATO had been caught with its pants down.

Edited July 23, 2014 by doctorproc156

[rijit]

 

 

The intelligence official cited previous incidents over the years in which both Russian and US forces have mistakenly shot down civilian airliners.

A Korean airliner was downed by a Soviet fighter jet in 1983 and US naval forces mistakenly shot down an Iranian civilian passenger plane in 1988.
 
"We've all seen mistakes in the past," the official told reporters.
 

 

As far as I can remember  in 1983 the Korean airliner was not downed "by mistake".

 

This happened at the time of Cold War.

 

The pilot received the order from the Soviet air force command center to shoot down the airplane because it penetrated very deeply into the Russian air space and was not replying to radio calls made by the Soviet fighter requesting identification information in compliance with International Air Traffic Regulations.

 

Probably at that time it was not clear whether it was a military airplane or a passenger airliner.

 

That was a lesson to the pilots all over the world to be extremely careful while flying near the boundaries of the Soviet air space.

 

 

 

someone else wrote this but thought it was pertinent. well mostly

In 2001, Ukrainian military shot down accidentally an airliner over the Black Sea. At the time the Ukrainian military was still pretty much aligned with Russian military and the government was very pro-Russia and had little foreign policy beyond Putin.

So, anyway, they shot down this plane (which was a Siberian jet flying from Israel to Siberia) - the nationality of the plane is unimportant because it was an accident.

What is important, is that Americans came up with an accurate version of events very quickly. But the Ukrainians denied everything and Putin went on record to say that it was impossible that the disaster was down to a mistake by his close neighbour's military.

In the end, they did admit everything and then coughed up some compensation.

Is it possible that it's just all happened again? Reckless ex-Soviet military don't have the balls to admit mistake? The Kursk nuclear submarine was another example - took them days to admit something wrong was happening..

 

Edited July 23, 2014 by rijit

[ezzra]

Either the operators of the missiles are dumb for not reading the target's signature correctly,

or the missle's system it self is dumb for not showing or warning that this is not a military target,

OR both are dumb and eager to shoot before verifying what they're shooting at,

[lostmebike]

 

'"We've all seen mistakes in the past,"...' Definitely a source of comfort to the grieving relatives.

I doubt grieving relatives are as concerned about whether an accident or intentional act as many obsessive types on here with no dog in the fight.

 

 

You can't even detect the slightest of sarcasm in 'Jonmarleesco's post??? Maybe not.

 

Of course the relatives won't really be concerned in the details at this stage. They have lost loved ones and are too busy grieving. 

 

'many obsessive types on here' Reading through the thread, a fair few posts are from yourself. Do you fall into this category?

[F430murci]

 

'"We've all seen mistakes in the past,"...' Definitely a source of comfort to the grieving relatives.

I doubt grieving relatives are as concerned about whether an accident or intentional act as many obsessive types on here with no dog in the fight.
 

 
You can't even detect the slightest of sarcasm in 'Jonmarleesco's post??? Maybe not.
 
Of course the relatives won't really be concerned in the details at this stage. They have lost loved ones and are too busy grieving. 
 
'many obsessive types on here' Reading through the thread, a fair few posts are from yourself. Do you fall into this category?

Yep, totally obsessive. Lol, one cannot even try and take a neutral position around here . . . Cool, keep on whining about the big old mean USA picking on poor little misunderstood Russia. It apparently is fulfilling for some of you to be filled with anger and resentment.

[lostmebike]

 

 

 

'"We've all seen mistakes in the past,"...' Definitely a source of comfort to the grieving relatives.

I doubt grieving relatives are as concerned about whether an accident or intentional act as many obsessive types on here with no dog in the fight.
 

 
You can't even detect the slightest of sarcasm in 'Jonmarleesco's post??? Maybe not.
 
Of course the relatives won't really be concerned in the details at this stage. They have lost loved ones and are too busy grieving. 
 
'many obsessive types on here' Reading through the thread, a fair few posts are from yourself. Do you fall into this category?

Yep, totally obsessive. Lol, one cannot even try and take a neutral position around here . . . Cool, keep on whining about the big old mean USA picking on poor little misunderstood Russia. It apparently is fulfilling for some of you to be filled with anger and resentment.

 

 

The only post I made was a reference to yourself and neither Russia nor the US were mentioned yet I am 'filled with anger and resentment', don't think so.

 

Neither pro Russian nor pro US on this one. However, I do think Putin's involvement in Ukraine is about as clear to everyone as is the US and EU's involvement. It appears that the Ukraine and it's people are mere pawns between the real players.

 

This is what the REAL 'neutrals' feel!

[spidermike007]

How is this news? Did anyone really think they shot down a civilian aircraft intentionally? I always assumed it was a mistake. How does that change anything one iota? If Russia backed the separatists, armed them with missiles, and did not properly train them, or supply them with adequate equipment to determine what they are shooting at, how does that make Russia, and Putin any less liable for this? At the very least, Russia should take the blame, and offer to pay for the replacement of the plane, and a couple of million dollars per passenger. In other words, a billion dollar mistake, plus 298 lives. Right? Taking responsibility is what men do. Well, I am not sure the term man really applied to King Vlad. More like lying, thieving, despotic, megalomaniacal swine. 

[F430murci]

 

You can't even detect the slightest of sarcasm in 'Jonmarleesco's post??? Maybe not.
 
Of course the relatives won't really be concerned in the details at this stage. They have lost loved ones and are too busy grieving. 
 
'many obsessive types on here' Reading through the thread, a fair few posts are from yourself. Do you fall into this category?

Yep, totally obsessive. Lol, one cannot even try and take a neutral position around here . . . Cool, keep on whining about the big old mean USA picking on poor little misunderstood Russia. It apparently is fulfilling for some of you to be filled with anger and resentment.
 

 
The only post I made was a reference to yourself and neither Russia nor the US were mentioned yet I am 'filled with anger and resentment', don't think so.
 
Neither pro Russian nor pro US on this one. However, I do think Putin's involvement in Ukraine is about as clear to everyone as is the US and EU's involvement. It appears that the Ukraine and it's people are mere pawns between the real players.
 
This is what the REAL 'neutrals' feel!

Haha, if the shoe fits . . . if not throw it the f away . . . Referring to others perhaps more than you as I did not look back to see who who said what in this thread.

Not sure I agree about Putin's involvement, nor do I really care. Wife is Russian, but most of our friends here are Ukranian. They cannot talk about this stuff as Russians and Ukranians have a very different and conflicting view about Putin/Russian's involvement in Ukraine. I see Ukraine's problem driven by desperation due to extremely poor economic conditions, but this is a completely different topic. Edited July 24, 2014 by F430murci

[laolover88]

Kiev and the US getting a bit edgy are they?. Now we have stool pigeons, defectors, and shooting down their own planes. Be sending those black boxes to Farnborough, I suppose?

[lovetotravel]

Kiev and the US getting a bit edgy are they?. Now we have stool pigeons, defectors, and shooting down their own planes. Be sending those black boxes to Farnborough, I suppose?

 

Hard not for Kiev to get edgy when their sovereign territory is being invaded.  Who shot down their own plane?  So far, the only planes shot down in the Ukraine were done by the rebels.  They've admitted to all except MH17.  And even then, they were caught talking about it on a website.  Until they took down the conversation.