Flight MH17 possibly shot by mistake

[steve73]

 

 

 

The intelligence official cited previous incidents over the years in which both Russian and US forces have mistakenly shot down civilian airliners.

A Korean airliner was downed by a Soviet fighter jet in 1983 and US naval forces mistakenly shot down an Iranian civilian passenger plane in 1988.
 
"We've all seen mistakes in the past," the official told reporters.
 

 

As far as I can remember  in 1983 the Korean airliner was not downed "by mistake".

 

This happened at the time of Cold War.

 

The pilot received the order from the Soviet air force command center to shoot down the airplane because it penetrated very deeply into the Russian air space and was not replying to radio calls made by the Soviet fighter requesting identification information in compliance with International Air Traffic Regulations.

 

Probably at that time it was not clear whether it was a military airplane or a passenger airliner.

 

That was a lesson to the pilots all over the world to be extremely careful while flying near the boundaries of the Soviet air space.

 

 

 

someone else wrote this but thought it was pertinent. well mostly

In 2001, Ukrainian military shot down accidentally an airliner over the Black Sea. At the time the Ukrainian military was still pretty much aligned with Russian military and the government was very pro-Russia and had little foreign policy beyond Putin.

So, anyway, they shot down this plane (which was a Siberian jet flying from Israel to Siberia) - the nationality of the plane is unimportant because it was an accident.

What is important, is that Americans came up with an accurate version of events very quickly. But the Ukrainians denied everything and Putin went on record to say that it was impossible that the disaster was down to a mistake by his close neighbour's military.

In the end, they did admit everything and then coughed up some compensation.

Is it possible that it's just all happened again? Reckless ex-Soviet military don't have the balls to admit mistake? The Kursk nuclear submarine was another example - took them days to admit something wrong was happening..

 

 

 

Perhaps a little off-topic - mods feel free to delete it you think it too far off...

 

But in a similar vein of Soviet/Russian denial, Chernobyl in 1988 and the even less well know nuclear disaster at Lake Karachay in 1957/8 that was denied for over 20 years.

Edited July 24, 2014 by steve73

[Asiantravel]

Russia accuses Kiev of tampering with ATC recordings

 

Air India flight was 90 seconds away when missile struck Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17

 

 

Almost immediately after MH17 was shot down, “Ukraine’s SBU security service…. confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner,” reported BBC News.

 

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-India-flight-was-90-seconds-away-when-missile-struck-Malaysia-Airlines-Flight-MH17/articleshow/38702536.cms

Edited July 24, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Asiantravel]

 

 

 

'"We've all seen mistakes in the past,"...' Definitely a source of comfort to the grieving relatives.

I doubt grieving relatives are as concerned about whether an accident or intentional act as many obsessive types on here with no dog in the fight.
 

 
You can't even detect the slightest of sarcasm in 'Jonmarleesco's post??? Maybe not.
 
Of course the relatives won't really be concerned in the details at this stage. They have lost loved ones and are too busy grieving. 
 
'many obsessive types on here' Reading through the thread, a fair few posts are from yourself. Do you fall into this category?

Yep, totally obsessive. Lol, one cannot even try and take a neutral position around here . . . Cool, keep on whining about the big old mean USA picking on poor little misunderstood Russia. It apparently is fulfilling for some of you to be filled with anger and resentment.

 

 

 

If not neutral, how about objective? You are a lawyer and you should be able to tell when people are lying or covering up.

As an outsider (non-American), the way this is being handled just reminds me so much of  Benghazi scandal and the IRS scandal.

 

Edited July 24, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Proofreader]

A few questions still remain:

1. If indeed rebels shot down MH17, it would be logical to try to cover it up and not to "find" those black boxes or at least send them to Moscow. In reality we see quite the opposite, black boxes were handed over to the Malaysian experts with the condition (set by rebels) that ICAO investigators would look into what had happened. Are they that stupid? Or they are just sure that the information from the black boxes will not implicate them? 

2. If Kiev knew well before the MH17 disaster that the rebels got hold of the BUK missiles, why they didn't declare a "no-no-no-fly zone" over this area or at least alerted civil aviation people of the danger.

3. Why up until now we don't have the Ukrainian air traffic controllers' records of their conversation with MH17 crew (as mentioned above they were confiscated by the Ukie security service). Is there something to hide?          

4. Why Ukrainian army had 6 BUK surface-to-air missile systems in that area? Do rebels have fighter-jets?    

Edited July 24, 2014 by Proofreader

[lovetotravel]

If not neutral, how about objective? You are a lawyer and you should be able to tell when people are lying or covering up.

As an outsider (non-American), the way this is being handled just reminds me so much of  Benghazi scandal and the IRS scandal.

 

 

 

So you are saying the Russians are telling the truth?  The US intelligence does make mistakes, but doesn't tell lies on the scale the Russian media does.

[lovetotravel]

Russia accuses Kiev of tampering with ATC recordings

 

Air India flight was 90 seconds away when missile struck Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17

 

 

Almost immediately after MH17 was shot down, “Ukraine’s SBU security service…. confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner,” reported BBC News.

 

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-India-flight-was-90-seconds-away-when-missile-struck-Malaysia-Airlines-Flight-MH17/articleshow/38702536.cms

 

Could have been a mistake.  There were several airlines in the sky near this flight.  Nothing unusual about recordings being taken for investigation.  Whatever was said will be on the flight's black box also.  According to your link, no contact was made and the Air India plane tried also with no luck.

 

Conspiracy theory again on the part of Russia???

[Proofreader]

MH17: Pockmarks look like from very, very heavy machine gun fire, says first OSCE monitor on-scene

BY HARIS HUSSAIN - 7 AUGUST 2014 @ 11:05 AM

KUALA LUMPUR: INTELLIGENCE analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it.

This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.

In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts”, Associated Press reporter Robert Parry said “some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame”.

This new revelation was posted on GlobalResearch, an independent research and media organisation.

In a statement released by the Ukrainian embassy on Tuesday, Kiev denied that its fighters were airborne during the time MH17 was shot down. This follows a statement released by the Russian Defence Ministry that its air traffic control had detected Ukrainian Air Force activity in the area on the same day.

They also denied all allegations made by the Russian government and said the country’s core interest was in ensuring an immediate, comprehensive, transparent and unbiased international investigation into the tragedy by establishing a state commission comprising experts from the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) and Eurocontrol.

“We have evidence that the plane was downed by Russian-backed terrorist with a BUK-M1 SAM system (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation reporting name SA-11) which, together with the crew, had been supplied from Russia. This was all confirmed by our intelligence, intercepted telephone conversations of the terrorists and satellite pictures.

“At the same time, the Ukrainian Armed Forces have never used any anti-aircraft missiles since the anti-terrorist operations started in early April,” the statement read.

 

Yesterday, the New Straits Times quoted experts who had said that photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes — the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with “flechettes”, and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds.

Parry’s conclusion also stemmed from the fact that despite assertions from the Obama administration, there has not been a shred of tangible evidence to support the conclusion that Russia supplied the rebels with the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet.

Parry also cited a July 29 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) investigators to arrive at the scene of the disaster, near Donetsk.

Bociurkiw is a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with OSCE who, along with another colleague, were the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after flight MH17 was brought down over eastern Ukraine.

In the CBC interview, the reporter in the video preceded it with: “The wreckage was still smouldering when a small team from the OSCE got there. No other officials arrived for days”.

“There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire,” Bociurkiw said in the interview.

Parry had said that Bociurkiw’s testimony is “as close to virgin, untouched evidence and testimony as we’ll ever get. Unlike a black-box interpretation-analysis long afterward by the Russian, British or Ukrainian governments, each of which has a horse in this race, this testimony from Bociurkiw is raw, independent and comes from one of the two earliest witnesses to the physical evidence.

“That’s powerfully authoritative testimony. Bociurkiw arrived there fast because he negotiated with the locals for the rest of the OSCE team, who were organising to come later,” Parry had said.

Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko had also weighed in on the new shootdown theory with Parry and pointed to the entry and exit holes centred around the cockpit.

“You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30mm caliber projectile.

“The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes, show shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent — outwardly.”

He deduced that in order to have some of those holes fraying inwardly, and the others fraying outwardly, there had to have been a second fighter firing into the cockpit from the airliner’s starboard side. This is critical, as no surface-fired missile (or shrapnel) hitting the airliner could possibly punch holes into the cockpit from both sides of the plane.

“It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko’s main discovery. You can’t have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.

“Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile,” Parry had said.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Proofreader

[Chicog]

As an outsider (non-American), the way this is being handled just reminds me so much of  Benghazi scandal and the IRS scandal.

 

 

 

What, you think the Republican party are lying through their teeth and have been forced to admit they were doing so?