What is Nirvana really?

[ByblosYuNaiSoi]

There aren't 3 models, Wikipaedia has it in a nutshell in it's first paragraph see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)

Maybe there are infinite and/or zero models.

 

Maybe it's exactly what it is, when it is or isn't

[Zendo]

 Osho on Nirvana :

 

"Nirvana means the ultimate enlightenment, the state when the ego disappears, when man is no more separate from existence – not even a thin curtain separates him, not even a transparent glass separates him – when all separation disappears. That meeting with the total, that merger with the whole, that melting into the absolute, is called nirvana.

The literal meaning of the word is beautiful, one of the most beautiful words. Literally it means blowing out a candle. When you blow out a candle, the light disappears and you cannot say where it has gone. You cannot show any direction to the East, to the West, to the North, to the South; it has simply disappeared. It has not gone anywhere, it has not moved into some other place. It has gone out of existence. It has moved into nothingness. It is no more. Exactly like that flame of the candle, the ego disappears. You cannot say where it has gone, it has not gone anywhere; it is no more. When the ego disappears, all is silence, because all turmoil, all noise, is of the ego. And when the ego disappears there is no longer any possibility of any anguish, anxiety. There is nobody to be anxious in the first place. One feels oneself as pure emptiness, and that pure emptiness has a fragrance to it."

 

you can read some more from the book : "Nirvana, The Last Nightmare" >> here : http://www.oshorajneesh.com/download/osho-books/zen/Nirvana_The_Last_Nightmare.pdf

 

[VincentRJ]

 Osho on Nirvana :

 

 When you blow out a candle, the light disappears and you cannot say where it has gone. You cannot show any direction to the East, to the West, to the North, to the South; it has simply disappeared. It has not gone anywhere, it has not moved into some other place. It has gone out of existence. It has moved into nothingness. It is no more. Exactly like that flame of the candle, the ego disappears. You cannot say where it has gone, it has not gone anywhere; it is no more. 

 

Yes you can say where it has gone, by understanding what caused the light. The light is merely a bi-product of a chemical reaction, a transformation of the candle wax, through heat, into various gases. To blow the light out is to simply stop or disrupt the chemical reaction, or the transformation of candle wax into gases. If you don't blow out the candle, the light will eventually stop of its own accord as the wax completely burns up.

 

Likewise, but at a more basic level, if you are watching me pour water out of a jug or kettle, and I stop pouring the water, you might scratch your head and ask where has the water gone? Answer: It has simply stopped flowing, as a result of a physical change in the position of the jug. The water remains in the jug. I can start it flowing again as long as there is water in the jug. I can light the candle again as long as there remains wax to burn. 

[IMA_FARANG]

rockyysdt

 

Hope you understand this.

 

Zen has a view like this:

 

Before enlightenment

Sweeping floors, drawing water. chopping wood.

After enlightenment

Sweeping enlightened floors, drawing enlightened water, chopping enlightened wood.

 

 

[rockyysdt]

rockyysdt

Hope you understand this.

Zen has a view like this:

Before enlightenment

Sweeping floors, drawing water. chopping wood.

After enlightenment

Sweeping enlightened floors, drawing enlightened water, chopping enlightened wood.

Thanks I

I suspect I know what it means, although interpretation might come down to my conditioning.

[rockyysdt]

Osho on Nirvana :

When you blow out a candle, the light disappears and you cannot say where it has gone. You cannot show any direction to the East, to the West, to the North, to the South; it has simply disappeared. It has not gone anywhere, it has not moved into some other place. It has gone out of existence. It has moved into nothingness. It is no more. Exactly like that flame of the candle, the ego disappears. You cannot say where it has gone, it has not gone anywhere; it is no more.

Yes you can say where it has gone, by understanding what caused the light. The light is merely a bi-product of a chemical reaction, a transformation of the candle wax, through heat, into various gases. To blow the light out is to simply stop or disrupt the chemical reaction, or the transformation of candle wax into gases. If you don't blow out the candle, the light will eventually stop of its own accord as the wax completely burns up.

Likewise, but at a more basic level, if you are watching me pour water out of a jug or kettle, and I stop pouring the water, you might scratch your head and ask where has the water gone? Answer: It has simply stopped flowing, as a result of a physical change in the position of the jug. The water remains in the jug. I can start it flowing again as long as there is water in the jug. I can light the candle again as long as there remains wax to burn.

Hi Vincent.

In terms of Nirvana, terms such as light, fire & fuel are metaphors.

[connda]

I re-read your post and sort of got the feeling that you're unable to see the forest from the trees.

You can talk about Nirvana, or Enlightenment, but talking and definitions and essays and even dharma talks are not going to give you an inkling of what nirvana (nibbana, nibbāna) truly is.

The only way to understand it is to experience the states leading to it, and that is only going to happen via meditation.

But if you really want to try to understand it from an intellectually route, which at best uses analogy to approximate that state of being that can't be verbalize, I suggest reading Being Dharma which is a collection of dharma talks by the late Ajahn Chah, the founder of Wat Pa Nanachat and Wat Pa Pong. This is Therevada Buddhism in the forest monastery tradition.

So, read, absorb what you can, and then develop a formal meditation practice that includes practicing Vipassana, moment to moment choiceless awareness, outside of your formal sitting meditation. It's difficult -- really difficult. But not impossible.

Sabbe shankara anicca

Sabbe shankara dukka

Sabbe dhamma anatta

My heart-felt best wishes on your journey.

[rockyysdt]

I re-read your post and sort of got the feeling that you're unable to see the forest from the trees.

You can talk about Nirvana, or Enlightenment, but talking and definitions and essays and even dharma talks are not going to give you an inkling of what nirvana (nibbana, nibbāna) truly is.

The only way to understand it is to experience the states leading to it, and that is only going to happen via meditation.

But if you really want to try to understand it from an intellectually route, which at best uses analogy to approximate that state of being that can't be verbalize, I suggest reading Being Dharma which is a collection of dharma talks by the late Ajahn Chah, the founder of Wat Pa Nanachat and Wat Pa Pong. This is Therevada Buddhism in the forest monastery tradition.

So, read, absorb what you can, and then develop a formal meditation practice that includes practicing Vipassana, moment to moment choiceless awareness, outside of your formal sitting meditation. It's difficult -- really difficult. But not impossible.

Sabbe shankara anicca

Sabbe shankara dukka

Sabbe dhamma anatta

My heart-felt best wishes on your journey.

Thank you for your input C.

I'm very much with you when it comes to attempting to understand Nirvana simply by discussion.

The heart of my OP revolves around the difference of each possibility.

• In the first possibility Nirvana is a "place", a specialized heaven where souls are united in a timeless unconditioned state.
• In the second possibility Nirvana is a "state" in which a human lives free from the fuels of Greed, Aversion & Delusion. A "state" free of Ego.
• The last illustrated possibility encompasses the second, but replaces souls with universal consciousness and extends it beyond the living mind/body.

The Buddha taught there is no individual soul nor spirit.

There is an immeasurable difference between one experiencing a "timeless unconditioned blissful state empty of thought" vs a "universal unborn & undying consciousness".

[jacky54]

No wonder people get put off Buddhism, you are all trying to be too clever!

[connda]

I re-read your post and sort of got the feeling that you're unable to see the forest from the trees.

You can talk about Nirvana, or Enlightenment, but talking and definitions and essays and even dharma talks are not going to give you an inkling of what nirvana (nibbana, nibbāna) truly is.

The only way to understand it is to experience the states leading to it, and that is only going to happen via meditation.

But if you really want to try to understand it from an intellectually route, which at best uses analogy to approximate that state of being that can't be verbalize, I suggest reading Being Dharma which is a collection of dharma talks by the late Ajahn Chah, the founder of Wat Pa Nanachat and Wat Pa Pong. This is Therevada Buddhism in the forest monastery tradition.

So, read, absorb what you can, and then develop a formal meditation practice that includes practicing Vipassana, moment to moment choiceless awareness, outside of your formal sitting meditation. It's difficult -- really difficult. But not impossible.

Sabbe shankara anicca

Sabbe shankara dukka

Sabbe dhamma anatta

My heart-felt best wishes on your journey.

Thank you for your input C.

I'm very much with you when it comes to attempting to understand Nirvana simply by discussion.

The heart of my OP revolves around the difference of each possibility.

• In the first possibility Nirvana is a "place", a specialized heaven where souls are united in a timeless unconditioned state.
• In the second possibility Nirvana is a "state" in which a human lives free from the fuels of Greed, Aversion & Delusion. A "state" free of Ego.
• The last illustrated possibility encompasses the second, but replaces souls with universal consciousness and extends it beyond the living mind/body.

The Buddha taught there is no individual soul nor spirit.

There is an immeasurable difference between one experiencing a "timeless unconditioned blissful state empty of thought" vs a "universal unborn & undying consciousness".

I used to do a lot of reading of various traditions. Doing the same as you -- just trying to understand.

Then after getting in tune with Ajahn Chah teaching, I've dropped the intellectual pursuit and simply have concentrated on cultivating my meditation practice. I accept that there is a state of being that humans can attain that brings an end to suffering. "Nirvana?" It's just a word. I try not to make it any more complicated than that. Best of luck. Chok dee.

[camerata]

I think everything the Buddha said about Nibbana/Nirvana is discussed in The Island: An Anthology of the Buddha's Teachings on Nibbana, by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro, now available in Kindle and other formats: https://archive.org/details/TheIslandAnAnthologyOfTheBuddhasTeachingsOnNibbana

Ajahn Amaro also gives a talk about it here: http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/1617.html

I remember Ajahn Amaro telling me last year that only once did the Buddha ever mention the nature of nibbana after death (i.e. "nibbana without remainder") - which is interesting.

[trd]

All intellectual speculation on the nature of nirvana is meaningless and a waste of one's life. It will only increase suffering.

But when the individual "I" permanently dissolves and expands into the universal "I" as a result of inquiry (meditation) into the source then:

There is no one to suffer

There is no one to be attached to objects

There is no one to make an effort

There is no one to make a choice

There is no one to see differences

There is no one to be a doer of action

What remains is only peace

Nirvana is Peace of Mind.

[connda]

I think everything the Buddha said about Nibbana/Nirvana is discussed in The Island: An Anthology of the Buddha's Teachings on Nibbana, by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro, now available in Kindle and other formats: https://archive.org/details/TheIslandAnAnthologyOfTheBuddhasTeachingsOnNibbana

Ajahn Amaro also gives a talk about it here: http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/1617.html

I remember Ajahn Amaro telling me last year that only once did the Buddha ever mention the nature of nibbana after death (i.e. "nibbana without remainder") - which is interesting.

Thanks for the link. This is the tradition I follow: Ajahn Mun, Ajahn Chah, and the monks associated with the wats established by Ajahn Chah. It's easy to get lost without a teacher to follow, so the writings tend to be of much value. Read, understand at the level you can, and apply to your practice. At some point, you're completely on your own. You practice, and let go. Just speaking from my own practice.

[rockyysdt]

All intellectual speculation on the nature of nirvana is meaningless and a waste of one's life. It will only increase suffering.

But when the individual "I" permanently dissolves and expands into the universal "I" as a result of inquiry (meditation) into the source then:

There is no one to suffer

There is no one to be attached to objects

There is no one to make an effort

There is no one to make a choice

There is no one to see differences

There is no one to be a doer of action

What remains is only peace

Nirvana is Peace of Mind.

I know my questions can never be answered with intellect.

Never the less they can be interesting as they can shake out a lot of misunderstanding and assist with the better understanding of what is known.

A key to: "There is no one to suffer", is the definition of "one".

Also, stepping back a little, a contemporary astronomer hosted a program of the evolution of our universe.

Apart its theoretical beginning (big bang), the program unfolded an evolving universe culminating in the creation of plant & animal life on our earth.

The end of the program focused on scientists using modern telescopes to look out at the majesty of our universe.

His conclusion: Imagine, such a wondrous universe with no one (consciousness) to behold it.

Was evolution over millennia, the universes way of gaining consciousness of itself through human beings?

And stepping back in time to when the Buddha lived, could a small group of contemporary scientists and technicians along with their inventions/creations, have easily fitted in as Gods?

[trd]

Imagine, such a wondrous universe with no one (consciousness) to behold it.

If there is no one to behold it, how can it be imagined?

[rockyysdt]

Imagine, such a wondrous universe with no one (consciousness) to behold it.

If there is no one to behold it, how can it be imagined?

Precisely.

The universe would be/was there but there was no one to be conscious of it until alien life and/or mankind evolved.

[rockyysdt]

I think everything the Buddha said about Nibbana/Nirvana is discussed in The Island: An Anthology of the Buddha's Teachings on Nibbana, by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro, now available in Kindle and other formats: https://archive.org/details/TheIslandAnAnthologyOfTheBuddhasTeachingsOnNibbana

Ajahn Amaro also gives a talk about it here: http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/1617.html

I remember Ajahn Amaro telling me last year that only once did the Buddha ever mention the nature of nibbana after death (i.e. "nibbana without remainder") - which is interesting.

Thanks Camerata.

Interesting talk.

30 minutes into the presentation appears to align very much with the second description of Nirvana:

• "State of being accord with nature (Dharma), fulfillment of the highest potential of mankind".
• It's not a grand finale at the end of Act 5. It's here now and can be momentary.

[VincentRJ]

Osho on Nirvana :

When you blow out a candle, the light disappears and you cannot say where it has gone. You cannot show any direction to the East, to the West, to the North, to the South; it has simply disappeared. It has not gone anywhere, it has not moved into some other place. It has gone out of existence. It has moved into nothingness. It is no more. Exactly like that flame of the candle, the ego disappears. You cannot say where it has gone, it has not gone anywhere; it is no more.

Yes you can say where it has gone, by understanding what caused the light. The light is merely a bi-product of a chemical reaction, a transformation of the candle wax, through heat, into various gases. To blow the light out is to simply stop or disrupt the chemical reaction, or the transformation of candle wax into gases. If you don't blow out the candle, the light will eventually stop of its own accord as the wax completely burns up.

Likewise, but at a more basic level, if you are watching me pour water out of a jug or kettle, and I stop pouring the water, you might scratch your head and ask where has the water gone? Answer: It has simply stopped flowing, as a result of a physical change in the position of the jug. The water remains in the jug. I can start it flowing again as long as there is water in the jug. I can light the candle again as long as there remains wax to burn.

Hi Vincent.

In terms of Nirvana, terms such as light, fire & fuel are metaphors.

Hi Rocky,

Of course I know it was supposed to be a metaphor. I was really just attempting to explain how inadequate metaphors can be, depending on one's own background understanding of the issue.

With my background and understanding, very limited as it may be, I tend to accept that everything we see, imagine, or think about is linked to certain types of neural responses somewhere in the brain. Therefore an experience of Nirvana, assuming the person experiencing it is still alive, is likely associated with a particular set of neural responses in the brain.

What those neural responses might be is a matter of speculation. Practical advice on how to achieve a state of mind in which the 'harmful' or 'anti-Nirvana' neural responses are disabled, is a subject which parts of the Pali Canon and other Buddhist texts try to explain, or offer advice upon. However, such advice is based upon an understanding that predates modern, scientific understanding, hence a certain amount of confusion is perhaps inevitable.

From my own experience and understanding, I see clearly that most people in most countries are beset with worries and anxieties about a huge range of issues, such as, (I'll keep the list very brief because it is really endless). Is my job secure? Will I get promotion if I don't suck up to my boss? Should I buy a new car to keep up appearances and impress my neighbours? Are my clothes outdated? Do I have enough friends (I don't want to be seen as sad and lonely)? Am I following the right diet to reduce my weight? Are my children attending the best school to give them a good start in life? etc, etc etc.

Many concerns and worries are about 'keeping up appearances', which is all about ego and vanity. Other concerns are more about basic issues of safety, security and survival.

Whatever the nature of the worry or anxiety, which in Buddhism seems to come under the general heading of 'suffering', it is dependent upon some sort of neural activity in the brain. The two processes, thoughts of worry and anxiety, and the neural activity associated with those thoughts, are linked in such a way that one could stop the worrying thoughts (theoretically) by either directly interfering with the neural processes through some sort of laser surgery which 'killed' or stopped that particular neural activity, or through the more natural process of Buddhist meditation practices

By realising that our ego is an illusion, we should be able to dispel all worries that are associated with the maintenance and/or expansion of such ego. If the ego is an illusion, then all concerns about its welfare must also be an illusion.

If we take this process to extremes, quieting and stilling the mind with respect to all practical concerns and worries, then the result is a complete cessation of all thought on practical matters.

This would be the closest state to Nirvana, in my humble opinion. A complete cessation of all thought in the parts of the brain dealing with practical issues relating to 'keeping up appearances', ie. the ego, and all other concerns about security and well-being.

However, if Nirvana is a state of joy, then I think there must still be some neural activity taking place in the left hemisphere of the brain, which normally deals with creative and religious matters.

[rockyysdt]

Hi Rocky,

Of course I know it was supposed to be a metaphor. I was really just attempting to explain how inadequate metaphors can be, depending on one's own background understanding of the issue.

With my background and understanding, very limited as it may be, I tend to accept that everything we see, imagine, or think about is linked to certain types of neural responses somewhere in the brain. Therefore an experience of Nirvana, assuming the person experiencing it is still alive, is likely associated with a particular set of neural responses in the brain.

What those neural responses might be is a matter of speculation. Practical advice on how to achieve a state of mind in which the 'harmful' or 'anti-Nirvana' neural responses are disabled, is a subject which parts of the Pali Canon and other Buddhist texts try to explain, or offer advice upon. However, such advice is based upon an understanding that predates modern, scientific understanding, hence a certain amount of confusion is perhaps inevitable.

From my own experience and understanding, I see clearly that most people in most countries are beset with worries and anxieties about a huge range of issues, such as, (I'll keep the list very brief because it is really endless). Is my job secure? Will I get promotion if I don't suck up to my boss? Should I buy a new car to keep up appearances and impress my neighbours? Are my clothes outdated? Do I have enough friends (I don't want to be seen as sad and lonely)? Am I following the right diet to reduce my weight? Are my children attending the best school to give them a good start in life? etc, etc etc.

Many concerns and worries are about 'keeping up appearances', which is all about ego and vanity. Other concerns are more about basic issues of safety, security and survival.

Whatever the nature of the worry or anxiety, which in Buddhism seems to come under the general heading of 'suffering', it is dependent upon some sort of neural activity in the brain. The two processes, thoughts of worry and anxiety, and the neural activity associated with those thoughts, are linked in such a way that one could stop the worrying thoughts (theoretically) by either directly interfering with the neural processes through some sort of laser surgery which 'killed' or stopped that particular neural activity, or through the more natural process of Buddhist meditation practices

By realising that our ego is an illusion, we should be able to dispel all worries that are associated with the maintenance and/or expansion of such ego. If the ego is an illusion, then all concerns about its welfare must also be an illusion.

If we take this process to extremes, quieting and stilling the mind with respect to all practical concerns and worries, then the result is a complete cessation of all thought on practical matters.

This would be the closest state to Nirvana, in my humble opinion. A complete cessation of all thought in the parts of the brain dealing with practical issues relating to 'keeping up appearances', ie. the ego, and all other concerns about security and well-being.

However, if Nirvana is a state of joy, then I think there must still be some neural activity taking place in the left hemisphere of the brain, which normally deals with creative and religious matters.

Some thoughts on a scientific level might be:

Is scientific experimentation, analysis and deduction limited by our awareness or lack of?

For example, those living 5,000 years ago wouldn't even know about elements, let alone sub atomic particles.

You've listed a number of afflictions which lead to suffering which I refer to as being at the coarse level.

Could there be afflictions residing at more subtle levels and currently beyond our awareness to hypothesize about let alone experiment with?

Is the practice of Dharma the only currently known method of finding out?

Rather than happiness or joy, perhaps Peace of Mind is more apt as Nirvana is a state in which there is no longer anything to want.

[IMA_FARANG]

rockyysdt

Hope you understand this.

Zen has a view like this:

Before enlightenment

Sweeping floors, drawing water. chopping wood.

After enlightenment

Sweeping enlightened floors, drawing enlightened water, chopping enlightened wood.

----------------------

Maybe I shouldn't have put it that way.

All it means is simply this:

Nirvana and enlightenment/understanding is not a thing or place.

It is all in you .... your mind and your experiences.

When/if you get "it", or when/where/how you find "it" you obtain nothing and you lose nothing.

Nothing changes.

You just are as you have always been.

Except once you have seen it, you understand that point.

You always were there, you just blocked the knowledge that you always had.

Now, you've stopped blocking what you always knew and always had.

That's called "seeing with clarity".

Like sitting on a mountain and looking into a foggy valley.

Then the wind blows, the fog lifts away, and you can clearly see what was always there in that valley.

The same as it always was, but now you can see.

Nothing changes except for your understanding of what you see.

[rockyysdt]

All intellectual speculation on the nature of nirvana is meaningless and a waste of one's life. It will only increase suffering.

But when the individual "I" permanently dissolves and expands into the universal "I" as a result of inquiry (meditation) into the source then:

There is no one to suffer

There is no one to be attached to objects

There is no one to make an effort

There is no one to make a choice

There is no one to see differences

There is no one to be a doer of action

What remains is only peace

Nirvana is Peace of Mind.

I recently read this:

"From consciousness [viññāṇa] as a requisite condition comes name-&-form [ namarupa].

Simultaneously, the converse is true:

"Consciousness comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition."

An analogy by Ven. Sariputta explains the interdependency of consciousness and name-&-form (Nalakalapiyo Sutta, SN 12.67):

"It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another.

In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form....

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall.

In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form...."

Does this mean that without "name & form" there is no "consciousness"?

In other words there may be peace (it always was there), but without body/mind there is no consciousness of peace.

[rockyysdt]

But when the individual "I" permanently dissolves and expands into the universal "I" as a result of inquiry (meditation) into the source then:

Andrew in Millenium Man, & Data in Star Trek, are both manufactured androids.

Both are endowed with senses, memory, feelings, & consciousness and a desire to live.

We know they do not have soul/spirit and that they are both conditioned and impermanent (although with greater endurance than humans).

When terminated they become destroyed.

Unaware of anything other than the conditioned & impermanent, and statistically unlikely to awaken for close to eternity, aren't these Androids the same as non awakened humans?

With nothing in common with the permanent "I" (unconditioned & permanent), but in fact its opposite.

Won't both become destroyed upon expiration of body/mind.

[Naam]

In truth, there are no words beautiful enough to describe nirvana. Neither from the Buddhist perspective, or the Christian name, the kingdom of heaven.

However, through the practice of Vipassana you can discover for yourself. Is is not easy, and not hard. Learn to live now, and insight will come.

big words without any meaning for those beginners who are seekers. i have made several attempts and never found/met anybody who could give me the tiniest portion of insight. but i will not give up!

inspite of reading most comments in the Buddhist section i still feel what my gardener must feel if i give him a lecture in quantum mechanics.

what i would highly appreciate is advice from the resident experts which books on buddhism they recommend for an absolute layman.

[rockyysdt]

In truth, there are no words beautiful enough to describe nirvana. Neither from the Buddhist perspective, or the Christian name, the kingdom of heaven.

However, through the practice of Vipassana you can discover for yourself. Is is not easy, and not hard. Learn to live now, and insight will come.

big words without any meaning for those beginners who are seekers. i have made several attempts and never found/met anybody who could give me the tiniest portion of insight. but i will not give up!

inspite of reading most comments in the Buddhist section i still feel what my gardener must feel if i give him a lecture in quantum mechanics.

what i would highly appreciate is advice from the resident experts which books on buddhism they recommend for an absolute layman.

Hi Naam.

Can I ask?

What draws you to Buddhism (what is your aim)?

What is your practice?

[Morakot]

which books on buddhism they recommend for an absolute layman.

It's not really a book about Buddhism, but a book about someone who found the meaning of existence.

It's quite moving and beautifully written.

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2500 (Eng)

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2499 (Ger)

[RandomSand]

"Love's selfless creation knows itself not and becomes an artefact in time due the eternal freedom of Love's infinite kindness which is intrinsically pure and empty in nature.Therefore the true nature of anything you care to name or define is intrinsically empty. These artefacts never were, truly are or will ever be. The greatest illusion conceived and there is no other. Outside itself is like a dream and internally is empty like the sky. Look but you see only residue of events which are due to this law."

I found this and though it might be relevant.

[VincentRJ]

Hi Rocky,

Of course I know it was supposed to be a metaphor. I was really just attempting to explain how inadequate metaphors can be, depending on one's own background understanding of the issue.

With my background and understanding, very limited as it may be, I tend to accept that everything we see, imagine, or think about is linked to certain types of neural responses somewhere in the brain. Therefore an experience of Nirvana, assuming the person experiencing it is still alive, is likely associated with a particular set of neural responses in the brain.

What those neural responses might be is a matter of speculation. Practical advice on how to achieve a state of mind in which the 'harmful' or 'anti-Nirvana' neural responses are disabled, is a subject which parts of the Pali Canon and other Buddhist texts try to explain, or offer advice upon. However, such advice is based upon an understanding that predates modern, scientific understanding, hence a certain amount of confusion is perhaps inevitable.

From my own experience and understanding, I see clearly that most people in most countries are beset with worries and anxieties about a huge range of issues, such as, (I'll keep the list very brief because it is really endless). Is my job secure? Will I get promotion if I don't suck up to my boss? Should I buy a new car to keep up appearances and impress my neighbours? Are my clothes outdated? Do I have enough friends (I don't want to be seen as sad and lonely)? Am I following the right diet to reduce my weight? Are my children attending the best school to give them a good start in life? etc, etc etc.

Many concerns and worries are about 'keeping up appearances', which is all about ego and vanity. Other concerns are more about basic issues of safety, security and survival.

Whatever the nature of the worry or anxiety, which in Buddhism seems to come under the general heading of 'suffering', it is dependent upon some sort of neural activity in the brain. The two processes, thoughts of worry and anxiety, and the neural activity associated with those thoughts, are linked in such a way that one could stop the worrying thoughts (theoretically) by either directly interfering with the neural processes through some sort of laser surgery which 'killed' or stopped that particular neural activity, or through the more natural process of Buddhist meditation practices

By realising that our ego is an illusion, we should be able to dispel all worries that are associated with the maintenance and/or expansion of such ego. If the ego is an illusion, then all concerns about its welfare must also be an illusion.

If we take this process to extremes, quieting and stilling the mind with respect to all practical concerns and worries, then the result is a complete cessation of all thought on practical matters.

This would be the closest state to Nirvana, in my humble opinion. A complete cessation of all thought in the parts of the brain dealing with practical issues relating to 'keeping up appearances', ie. the ego, and all other concerns about security and well-being.

However, if Nirvana is a state of joy, then I think there must still be some neural activity taking place in the left hemisphere of the brain, which normally deals with creative and religious matters.

Some thoughts on a scientific level might be:

Is scientific experimentation, analysis and deduction limited by our awareness or lack of?

For example, those living 5,000 years ago wouldn't even know about elements, let alone sub atomic particles.

Rocky,

As I'm sure you know, the scientific process is an attempt by people to create theories and models which match our observations. All theories are subject to revision in the light of new evidence or data that results from new observations. Since 'observation' is a fundamental requirement of this process, no science is possible without it.

Also, since observation and awareness are synonyms, your question, (Is scientific experimentation, analysis and deduction limited by our awareness or lack of?) is a muddled question. It is like asking, 'Is our health and longevity limited by the presence of oxygen?' Our very existence, regardless of issues of health and longevity, is entirely dependent upon the presence of oxygen in the atmosphere.

One major difficulty with the scientific methodology is in its capacity to deal with individual uniqueness and systems that have a huge number of variables. For example, Science can determine that among the population at large, those who smoke have an increased risk of getting lung cancer. However, there is great difficulty in assessing the risk that a single indiviual might have in contracting lung cancer. Some people can smoke until the age of 90 or more, never get lung cancer and die of something else. In retrospect, one could say that such a person had no risk whatsoever of contracting lung cancer through smoking, although it would have been impossible for science to predict that outcome several decades earlier.

Likewise, I imagine it would be very difficult, and perhaps impossible, for any person to create a reliable scientific theory, or model or description of the mind that applies to everyone, by observing his own mind (or thoughts) during periods of meditation, because each individual is unique. This leads on to your next point.

You've listed a number of afflictions which lead to suffering which I refer to as being at the coarse level. Could there be afflictions residing at more subtle levels and currently beyond our awareness to hypothesize about let alone experiment with?

The reason I mentioned afflictions at a coarse level (as you describe it), is because these so-called coarse-level afflictions tend to apply generally to everyone, at least initially. The more subtle afflictions, I imagine, would tend to be more unique to the individual. This is why I think that 'universal' descriptions and definitions of Nirvana are so fraught with difficulty.

[rockyysdt]

You've listed a number of afflictions which lead to suffering which I refer to as being at the coarse level. Could there be afflictions residing at more subtle levels and currently beyond our awareness to hypothesize about let alone experiment with?

The reason I mentioned afflictions at a coarse level (as you describe it), is because these so-called coarse-level afflictions tend to apply generally to everyone, at least initially. The more subtle afflictions, I imagine, would tend to be more unique to the individual. This is why I think that 'universal' descriptions and definitions of Nirvana are so fraught with difficulty.

Scientifically speaking, aren't you speculating?

[trd]

In truth, there are no words beautiful enough to describe nirvana. Neither from the Buddhist perspective, or the Christian name, the kingdom of heaven.

However, through the practice of Vipassana you can discover for yourself. Is is not easy, and not hard. Learn to live now, and insight will come.

big words without any meaning for those beginners who are seekers. i have made several attempts and never found/met anybody who could give me the tiniest portion of insight. but i will not give up!

inspite of reading most comments in the Buddhist section i still feel what my gardener must feel if i give him a lecture in quantum mechanics.

what i would highly appreciate is advice from the resident experts which books on buddhism they recommend for an absolute layman.

Naam, in your profile it says your interests are living, dining, wining and investing. So that is already a lot of mind and senses activity. You don't want to be adding more to that "story of you" with trying to follow all these forum comments and opinions and then embarking on a reading spree about Buddhism. So I would follow pacceka's advice. What you have to do is quieten your mind. That is all. It is so simple that most people don't understand. They think there is an intellectual solution. You might be one of the few who do get it. Heed my words.

[VincentRJ]

You've listed a number of afflictions which lead to suffering which I refer to as being at the coarse level. Could there be afflictions residing at more subtle levels and currently beyond our awareness to hypothesize about let alone experiment with?

The reason I mentioned afflictions at a coarse level (as you describe it), is because these so-called coarse-level afflictions tend to apply generally to everyone, at least initially. The more subtle afflictions, I imagine, would tend to be more unique to the individual. This is why I think that 'universal' descriptions and definitions of Nirvana are so fraught with difficulty.

Scientifically speaking, aren't you speculating?

Yes. Most scientific theories and predictions dealing with the uniqueness and the great variability of individuals are, by definition, in the realm of speculation and probability. The more unique the characteristic being observed, the less certain the predictions and the theories become.