Thai man bitten by Tarantula spider dies in hospital

[wilcopops]

in thailand lives the black tiger tarantula (haplopelma minax), which is one of the most aggressive tarantulas, but not among the most venomous ones.
people reacts in different ways to spider bites, but a fast right treatment can save the life.

 

 

If treatment is needed at all!

[wilcopops]

 

 

 

OK in summary

It wasn't a tarantula, it almost 100% certainly wasn't a brown recluse, and there's a good chance it  wasn't even a spider.

the guy died of subsequent complications, probably brought on by in-appropriate treatment either before or after he got to hospital.

We can't even say the complications arose out of the bite itself, it may have been the treatments themselves that caused the problems.

 

 

How can you say with 100% certainty that it wasn't a brown recluse?

 

 

 

I can say with "almost 100% certainty" because I know how and where these creatures live, and I can make a reasonable assessment of the chances of one turning up in somones bed in Northern Thailand, biting them several times and THEN the bite turning to loxoscelism. 

 

If you have a problem with this assessment get yourself educated on this animal and you will soon see how ludicrous the idea is.

[eightleggedfreak]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do we REALLY need that?

This smacks of someone who doesn't have an argument so thinks it is clever to ask for references....een though they have no idea of how either to use them or construct and argument.

 

Of course we have to ask.  Is his report authoritative?  WHO sent him?  What are his credentials?  These are basic questions I would expect from anyone included in an official inspection.
 

 

 

 

UMMMMMM - this isn't an official inspection - I think this says more about your lack of knowledge on how to analyse a discussion than anything else.

 

 

 

 

Ah, not official.  So, all we have is the word of anonymous internet guy and his mini-me.

 

 

 

...and now the award for the most facile post of the thread............rather then ask about the messenger - why not stick to the issues of the  debate? - please explain your point of view and how you disagree with the argument that it wasn't the spider named in the paper or any other part you disagree with.

In other words lay out your case.

 

 

 

 I am not and anonymous guy - I am an anonymous woman!!

 

Also it was not just me who has concluded this about the spider. There were 4 qualified arachnologist - we have had to go through years of training and hard work for our PhDs - several PhD students who work on spiders, some entomologist and others. We worked together on this. Yes there is a full official report being drawn up right now.

 

If you can read Thai I have added the initial conclusions we distributed. This was produced after our surveys.  Also if you can understand Thai there are a couple of youtube clips about it 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR5ek9driKM&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN2dxCON_Gg&feature=youtu.be

 

The main problem right now is misinformation and bad reporting by the press

 

 

Edited July 29, 2014 by eightleggedfreak

[eightleggedfreak]

We are not a self styled experts. I have  a PhD in arachnology for a very prestigious UK University. The other experts have  PhDs from Chulalonkorn University, Kasetsart University and Chiang Mai University. Two of us are the Thailand representatives for the Asian Society of Arachnology ... I think you will find we are well affiliated and REAL experts. 

 

Also if you can read Thai I have sent the initial findings and my earlier post states that we are in the process of producing the full report but I am not going to put it on here before it is finished.  

[eightleggedfreak]

zydeco 

 

I do not know where you get the idea I am saying the physician is incompetent. I am saying there has been a misidentification of the specimen.

 

I would also like to say that I do not know the other person responding to these messages so please do not lump us together.

 

I am just concerned that this is getting out of hand. There was no brown recluse spider. It is not in Thailand and people do not need to worry about this. I have had a lot of very concerned people contacting me and the panic is not necessary.

 

There is no need to personally attack me about this issue

[craigt3365]

Several "bickering" posts have been removed from view.  Back to the topic please.

[Acharn]

Mr Uthai was the first known fatality from spider bite in this country.

 
And ... one of the first fatalities from a tarantula bite.

Yes. Normally I don't care that news stories are so inaccurate here, but I really wish they had identified the spider correctly. I'm not an expert, but I understood that tarantulas are not venomous. They don'e need to be. They are big enough that they can kill small animals (very small). Another poster suggested they might have meant a brown recluse, but I didn't think they existed in Thailand. Maybe somebody brought one in as a pet?

[csabo]

Lot's of debate about the bite not being the cause of death but it was the first of a series of events which if it had not happened the victim would be alive.  Similarly if a gunshot victim goes to the hospital and dies from an infection he gets at the hospital he has officially succumbed to complications from the gunshot would.  The assailant could and would likely be charged with murder with a firearm as opposed to the prosecutors blaming the hospital for allowing an infection to kill the patient and charging the shooter with an assault only disassociating the death. Another possibility is someone bitten by a non-lethal but venomous animal in a remote location therefore the wound is untreated and the subject dies from an ensuing infection.  Sooooo.... whatever bit this guy eventually killed him.  If splitting hairs one could say he died from complications from a bite.

[thairastawoman]

Is there any antvenom for tarantula ?

 

I found this but only against Asian snakes it seems ?

 

http://www.snake-antivenin.com

 

Can you confirm ?

 

 

 

 

[curtklay]

eightleggedfreak:

Thank you very much for contributing the facts about this incident. These forum discussions can get totally out of control, and turn into a bunch of rants from people who know nothing about what they are saying. After 4 pages of it, I'm sure your inclination would be to say "screw this nonsense" and drop out of the thread. I appreciate your tenacity to relate the truth as it is known, and calm any needless hysteria.

[wilcopops]

Lot's of debate about the bite not being the cause of death but it was the first of a series of events which if it had not happened the victim would be alive.  Similarly if a gunshot victim goes to the hospital and dies from an infection he gets at the hospital he has officially succumbed to complications from the gunshot would.  The assailant could and would likely be charged with murder with a firearm as opposed to the prosecutors blaming the hospital for allowing an infection to kill the patient and charging the shooter with an assault only disassociating the death. Another possibility is someone bitten by a non-lethal but venomous animal in a remote location therefore the wound is untreated and the subject dies from an ensuing infection.  Sooooo.... whatever bit this guy eventually killed him.  If splitting hairs one could say he died from complications from a bite.

 

 

an appaling piece of logic with plenty of flaws.

[wilcopops]

Is there any antvenom for tarantula ?

 

I found this but only against Asian snakes it seems ?

 

http://www.snake-antivenin.com

 

Can you confirm ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is unlikely you'd need it. there are anti venoms for some spider bites.

[theoldgit]

Nonsense post removed.

[dcpo]

 

 

Mr Uthai was the first known fatality from spider bite in this country.

 
And ... one of the first fatalities from a tarantula bite.

 

Yes. Normally I don't care that news stories are so inaccurate here, but I really wish they had identified the spider correctly. I'm not an expert, but I understood that tarantulas are not venomous. They don'e need to be. They are big enough that they can kill small animals (very small). Another poster suggested they might have meant a brown recluse, but I didn't think they existed in Thailand. Maybe somebody brought one in as a pet?

 

Tarantulas are venomous, as are most spider species. Their bite is not considered dangerous to humans, though it can be painful.

[Greer]

 

 

 

It was not a tarantula or a brown recluse.....people simply don't die of spider bites....unless they get the wrong kind of treatment or there is some delay or complication.

Or as seems possible someone decided that "traditional medicine" was suitable.

(let's just hope they didn't misdiagnose ebola!)

 

 

ppl die from spider bites in some other countries. funnelweb and red back in australia for example.

 

 

Funnel web spiders are often found around Sydney area, as are trap-door spiders, while red-backs are found all over the country. I don't think I have heard of anyone being killed by red-back in many years, but the other types I think do occasionally cause deaths - generally and sadly it is more likely that a child or elderly person would be killed by these spiders; normal healthy adults, receiving the correct treatment are usually OK after a short spell in hospital. 

[huangnon]

Seems like the guy was killed by his own and his family's neglect (and utter stupidity) of what should have been an easy thing to take care of. There aren't any really dangerous 8-legged creatures in LOS.

 

Plenty of the 2-legged variety though.

[Rorri]

csabo, on 29 Jul 2014 - 23:55, said:

Lot's of debate about the bite not being the cause of death but it was the first of a series of events which if it had not happened the victim would be alive.  Similarly if a gunshot victim goes to the hospital and dies from an infection he gets at the hospital he has officially succumbed to complications from the gunshot would.  The assailant could and would likely be charged with murder with a firearm as opposed to the prosecutors blaming the hospital for allowing an infection to kill the patient and charging the shooter with an assault only disassociating the death. Another possibility is someone bitten by a non-lethal but venomous animal in a remote location therefore the wound is untreated and the subject dies from an ensuing infection.  Sooooo.... whatever bit this guy eventually killed him.  If splitting hairs one could say he died from complications from a bite.

So, if I go into a hospital and kill a car accident victim, then, by your logic, he died from complications from car accident. Interesting theory.

[Dasekel]

I was part of the team who went to Phrae to search for the suspected Brown recluse. None were found. This spider is NOT in Thailand. Please make sure you know what you are talking about before speculating as it is causing quite a bit of totally unnecessary panic.

 

As for them saying he was bitten by a tarantula that is a totally new theory - which is equally as untrue. There are several tarantula species in Thailand but their venom in pretty much not poisonous to us (I say pretty much as every person is different). However this man was NOT bitten by a tarantula either. 

 

I guess the only thing that is clear is the low standard of journalism in Thailand. They did not get any facts straight and we will probably never know which spider it was.

 

However, I agree that it was probably not the spider killing the patient, but a multiple organ failure (MOF) caused by septicemia, probably due to a severely infected spider bite wound. If an infection gets so bad that it causes advanced septicemia resulting in MOF, then it is always difficult to treat the patient, even in the ICUs of developed countries.

[Dasekel]

 

Lot's of debate about the bite not being the cause of death but it was the first of a series of events which if it had not happened the victim would be alive.  Similarly if a gunshot victim goes to the hospital and dies from an infection he gets at the hospital he has officially succumbed to complications from the gunshot would.  The assailant could and would likely be charged with murder with a firearm as opposed to the prosecutors blaming the hospital for allowing an infection to kill the patient and charging the shooter with an assault only disassociating the death. Another possibility is someone bitten by a non-lethal but venomous animal in a remote location therefore the wound is untreated and the subject dies from an ensuing infection.  Sooooo.... whatever bit this guy eventually killed him.  If splitting hairs one could say he died from complications from a bite.

 

 

an appaling piece of logic with plenty of flaws.

 

 

In this logic, it was his mother who killed him, because she gave birth to him, after which everything else happened. If a mosquito wound gets infected and is not properly treated, leading to septic shock and death, would the mosquito be the killer?

[Rorri]

Dasekel, on 30 Jul 2014 - 18:05, said:

 

wilcopops, on 30 Jul 2014 - 07:44, said:

 

csabo, on 29 Jul 2014 - 23:55, said:

Lot's of debate about the bite not being the cause of death but it was the first of a series of events which if it had not happened the victim would be alive.  Similarly if a gunshot victim goes to the hospital and dies from an infection he gets at the hospital he has officially succumbed to complications from the gunshot would.  The assailant could and would likely be charged with murder with a firearm as opposed to the prosecutors blaming the hospital for allowing an infection to kill the patient and charging the shooter with an assault only disassociating the death. Another possibility is someone bitten by a non-lethal but venomous animal in a remote location therefore the wound is untreated and the subject dies from an ensuing infection.  Sooooo.... whatever bit this guy eventually killed him.  If splitting hairs one could say he died from complications from a bite.

 

 

an appaling piece of logic with plenty of flaws.

 

 

In this logic, it was his mother who killed him, because she gave birth to him, after which everything else happened. If a mosquito wound gets infected and is not properly treated, leading to septic shock and death, would the mosquito be the killer?

 

The mosquito bite itself maybe not have actually caused the infection, if it was the treatment then that is the cause of death, not the bite.

[rascalman]

I heard it was a brown recluse spider.

that one nearly killed my brother in law! very painful!

[wilcopops]

I heard it was a brown recluse spider.

that one nearly killed my brother in law! very painful!

For heaven sake! It was NOT a brown recluse.

[aboctok]

Has anyone else seen a large brown spider that moves incredibly fast when disturbed? I'm in northern Isaan, and recently happened on one of these spiders, at home. Moved across the wall at lightning speed. (The spider.) No way anybody could have captured or swatted it. Quite impressive—not one of your lazy spiders. Luckily for me, its preferred direction of travel was a-way. If it had been predisposed to attack rather than decamp, I suppose I might have had time to blink, before it attached itself to my face or something. And large, bigger than a huntsman (for those who find the huntsman a convenient benchmark).

 

Okay, allowing for my spasming adrenal glands, which probably registered as a slight tremor in the floor of the neighbouring apartment, this (prospectively named) Northern Isaan Zorro spider was probably no bigger than a (mighty large) huntsman. For the peace-of-mind of future victims, or at least those who prefer to contemplate something scientific in their final milliseconds of consciousness, can anybody (experts preferred^‡) hazard a guess as to the identity of this deadly menace? I acknowledge that it is a group effort; I would have taken a photo to aid identification, but this Zorro spider moves at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light.

 

^‡ Insight from peer-reviewed experts wholeheartedly welcomed.

Edited August 1, 2014 by aboctok

[wilcopops]

Has anyone else seen a large brown spider that moves incredibly fast when disturbed? I'm in northern Isaan, and recently happened on one of these spiders, at home. Moved across the wall at lightning speed. (The spider.) No way anybody could have captured or swatted it. Quite impressive—not one of your lazy spiders. Luckily for me, its preferred direction of travel was a-way. If it had been predisposed to attack rather than decamp, I suppose I might have had time to blink, before it attached itself to my face or something. And large, bigger than a huntsman (for those who find the huntsman a convenient benchmark).

 

Okay, allowing for my spasming adrenal glands, which probably registered as a slight tremor in the floor of the neighbouring apartment, this (prospectively named) Northern Isaan Zorro spider was probably no bigger than a (mighty large) huntsman. For the peace-of-mind of future victims, or at least those who prefer to contemplate something scientific in their final milliseconds of consciousness, can anybody (experts preferred^‡) hazard a guess as to the identity of this deadly menace? I acknowledge that it is a group effort; I would have taken a photo to aid identification, but this Zorro spider moves at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light.

 

^‡ Insight from peer-reviewed experts wholeheartedly welcomed.

 

 

Your description is far too vague even to guess at......BTW, have you any idea of the size range of Huntsman spiders? (Huntsmans are noted for their speed of course)

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by wilcopops