Will booting out teachers without valid visas & work permits raise the standard?

Franky Bear · July 29, 2014

TEFL is a joke and should be banned IMO.

You are NOT a teacher. As i said before you don't hire an unqualified tradesman to do a job in your home do you?

TEFL is a bad loophole. It doesn;t matter if you are good or not. I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.

You should all also bring a Police report from your home country no more than 2 months old.

casualbiker · July 29, 2014

It can't get any lower than it is so either it will get better or stay the same - probably the latter!

I think general English ability IS improving.

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NanLaew · July 29, 2014

This might not sit well but i am all for much stronger laws on "teachers"

Do you employ an electrician in your home that is qualified with the right papers, or do you get a guy in the pub that "knows a bit" about electricity?

A fair analogy but you really should have picked another trade. When it comes to finding a sparky in Thailand, down the pub (or karaoke bar) is probably the only avenue.

casualbiker · July 29, 2014

TEFL is a joke and should be banned IMO.

You are NOT a teacher. As i said before you don't hire an unqualified tradesman to do a job in your home do you?

TEFL is a bad loophole. It doesn;t matter if you are good or not. I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.

You should all also bring a Police report from your home country no more than 2 months old.

bolloxs my deleted text was a description of the two round (generally) hairy things between your legs.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Edited July 29, 2014 by casualbiker

kleelof · July 29, 2014

I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.

I've seen this type of statement made before, but nobody has ever said what it is about a uni degree that makes one qualified to teach English. Especially considering, most degrees have nothing to do with English or teaching.

kleelof · July 29, 2014

It can't get any lower than it is so either it will get better or stay the same - probably the latter!

I think general English ability IS improving.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It is. I've been here for 10 years and even in that time it has improved greatly in kids.

isawasnake · July 29, 2014

I hope I don't give anybody too much satisfaction when I say it really does make my blood boil when I hear people from westernized nations saying 1000 dollars a month is ok. That is 12,000 dollars a year.... I know you knew that, but doesn't that figure scare you? That figure just makes me laugh personally. People not only say it is ok though, they say it is great, like a godsend! These are the "perpetuators" for lack of a better term. Go back in the books to see how long people have been earning 30k baht per month here, and we all have the perpetuators to thank for this.

There are so many ways to just totally destroy this argument. What is you have a wife and a child, and you want to fly back home once in say 10 years. That'll be about 3 months salary, or 25% of your work year, JUST FOR THE FLIGHT. I hope your family likes water and bread. I could go on and on with these examples, as could we all.

People here don't seem to understand that when you bring your skills and knowledge into a place like Thailand, whose people generally are less skilled and not as well educated, there is a price for that. We can do things that no Thai can do, of course there is a hefty price for that. Now, on top of that, you must..... absolutely must.... consider that Thais do not fight for themselves at all. They don't fight for their rights or workers wages, there are no unions etc. In short, their wages are much much lower than they should be. Not my problem, and more to the point, I could not care less what they are making for these and many other reasons.

Once we firmly establish in our minds why we should not care about what others make here, which you should honestly get to this point if you think about it, then you have to ask "how much am I worth?" If you are getting a figure of 12,000 dollars a year when you answer that, I feel sorry for you. That would be more than half of what a person with absolutely no skills earns in the western world. Hell, a Mexican who just crossed the border into California with one arm who was drooling on himself but can hold a rake could earn double that.

I am just going to proclaim myself the winner of this "argument" given the above verbiage. This sh!t sells itself, because it is the truth. If you are one who works for 30k a month because they need to I have nothing but respect for you. Truth. But if you are one who says 30k is an ok salary and what are we complaining about, you are a perpetuator, and I am complaining because you make life much worse for all those here who would like to sell their skills at reasonable, fair market prices.

Edited July 29, 2014 by isawasnake

kingstonkid · July 29, 2014

Simple.

Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.

Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.

Everybody wins.

That will never happen. Check the BKK post there is an article that they are upset with hiring experts in business to teach.

Will this improve the teaching YES it is going to get rid of the backpack teachers that just show up to make money and party in Thailand.

As to the money thing.

People do not come here and teach to make money. They come here to teach and enjoy Thailand.

Increasing pay here will screw things up here just like higher wges do in any country.

How do you think schools will get the money to pay teachers more.

RAISE THE COSTS OF ENROLLMENT.

So the studetns tht we want to help get screwed because either mom and dad have to pull them from the better school because they can not afford it or schools start to go under.

casualbiker · July 29, 2014

TEFL is a joke and should be banned IMO.

You are NOT a teacher. As i said before you don't hire an unqualified tradesman to do a job in your home do you?

TEFL is a bad loophole. It doesn;t matter if you are good or not. I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.

You should all also bring a Police report from your home country no more than 2 months old.

If you had been reading this thread. You would have noticed that most TEFL teachers are at pains to differentiate themselves from subject teachers (who by the way probably DON'T have a degree in the subject taught as they HAVE to have a B'ed) we generally know and understand our role in educating / teaching the students and that role primarily is speaking and listening : to enable the students to listen to a native or near native speaker and said speaker to help them with pronunciation and sentence structure. Some times the schools also require us to help with writing and reading.

You wish to take that opportunity away. What would you replace it with?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

casualbiker · July 29, 2014

I hope I don't give anybody too much satisfaction when I say it really does make my blood boil when I hear people from westernized nations saying 1000 dollars a month is ok. That is 12,000 dollars a year.... I know you knew that, but doesn't that figure scare you? That figure just makes me laugh personally. People not only say it is ok though, they say it is great, like a godsend! These are the "perpetuators" for lack of a better term. Go back in the books to see how long people have been earning 30k baht per month here, and we all have the perpetuators to thank for this.

There are so many ways to just totally destroy this argument. What is you have a wife and a child, and you want to fly back home once in say 10 years. That'll be about 3 months salary, or 25% of your work year, JUST FOR THE FLIGHT. I hope your family likes water and bread. I could go on and on with these examples, as could we all.

People here don't seem to understand that when you bring your skills and knowledge into a place like Thailand, whose people generally are less skilled and not as well educated, there is a price for that. We can do things that no Thai can do, of course there is a hefty price for that. Now, on top of that, you must..... absolutely must.... consider that Thais do not fight for themselves at all. They don't fight for their rights or workers wages, there are no unions etc. In short, their wages are much much lower than they should be. Not my problem, and more to the point, I could not care less what they are making for these and many other reasons.

Once we firmly establish in our minds why we should not care about what others make here, which you should honestly get to this point if you think about it, then you have to ask "how much am I worth?" If you are getting a figure of 12,000 dollars a year when you answer that, I feel sorry for you. That would be more than half of what a person with absolutely no skills earns in the western world. Hell, a Mexican who just crossed the border into California with one arm who was drooling on himself but can hold a rake could earn double that.

I am just going to proclaim myself the winner of this "argument" given the above verbiage. This sh!t sells itself, because it is the truth. If you are one who works for 30k a month because they need to I have nothing but respect for you. Truth. But if you are one who says 30k is an ok salary and what are we complaining about, you are a perpetuator, and I am complaining because you make life much worse for all those here who would like to sell their skills at reasonable, fair market prices.

If you have the skills YOU WILL be on more than 30,000baht per month. If your not. Have you in fact GOT THE SKILLS!

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casualbiker · July 29, 2014

Simple.

Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.

Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.

Everybody wins.

That will never happen. Check the BKK post there is an article that they are upset with hiring experts in business to teach.

Will this improve the teaching YES it is going to get rid of the backpack teachers that just show up to make money and party in Thailand.

As to the money thing.

People do not come here and teach to make money. They come here to teach and enjoy Thailand.

Increasing pay here will screw things up here just like higher wges do in any country.

How do you think schools will get the money to pay teachers more.

RAISE THE COSTS OF ENROLLMENT.

So the studetns tht we want to help get screwed because either mom and dad have to pull them from the better school because they can not afford it or schools start to go under.

It won't get rid of the " backpack teachers that just show up to make money and party in Thailand." As a new breed are taking over.. just Google O.E.G. backpackers with degrees. They will fill the void. And probably stay for a shorter time than backpackers of old.

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GoonDizzy · July 29, 2014

Again, there should be three work permits for teachers.

1. International Schools. Class One (or whatever). QTS/US equivalent. Can teach GCSE/US curriculum. BA (Education for Primary/Elementary) or subject degree for High school. Master's in Ed or PGCE required plus experience of teaching in own country. Police checks required.

2. English teachers in non International Schools. Requirements. B.Ed/ BA in English Language/Linguistics or BA in TESOL (or a combination of those).Those teachers can only teach English as a second language. If you think that a degree in English Language or TESOL isn't enough to teach..ermm...TESOL/English to speakers of other languages then I must be missing something. Can work in Primary/High Schools/other after police checks.

3. Conversation teachers. Evening/Weekend Language schools: Requirements: Non relevant degrees (Textiles etc unless teaching Textiles in English) And/or CELTA/DELTA/Trinity TESOL plus A Levels/US High School Diploma with excellent grades. Tutors must be fully enrolled either within Thailand or Distance Learning for a degree/Master's in either English/Education or TESOL.Police checks required. Teachers in the final year of a degree can progress to level two after successful official observations (if on target to obtain degree).

isawasnake · July 29, 2014

Simple.

Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.

Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.

Everybody wins.

That will never happen. Check the BKK post there is an article that they are upset with hiring experts in business to teach.

Will this improve the teaching YES it is going to get rid of the backpack teachers that just show up to make money and party in Thailand.

As to the money thing.

People do not come here and teach to make money. They come here to teach and enjoy Thailand.

Increasing pay here will screw things up here just like higher wges do in any country.

How do you think schools will get the money to pay teachers more.

RAISE THE COSTS OF ENROLLMENT.

So the studetns tht we want to help get screwed because either mom and dad have to pull them from the better school because they can not afford it or schools start to go under.

"They come here to teach and enjoy Thailand"

Ok.

Anyway, I am going to stop soon, I had some blood boiling before but it is cooling off now

I was lucky enough to have good teachers when I was a kid. I don't know how our school system does it to be honest. We somehow weed out those who do not care, and the ones left care and they are truly into educating children. And they do an amazing job. In Thailand, teachers like this don't exist to any meaningful extent. If you want them to, you have to pay them for their skills and dedication. There is just no other way to do it. Dedicated and skilled teachers aren't just going to start appearing for no reason.... just like anything else.... Tiger Woods wont just show up somewhere unless there is some serious incentive. Welcome to the real world. Be willing to pay or willing to accept the status quo of much below mediocrity. Either is fine with me really. Sorry, but to say that the more you pay the worse the education will get is like saying the less you pay Tiger, the more likely it is that he will show. Nobody, I hope, listens to nonsense like that.

The assertion that the kids' English is improving really is not all that important in my opinion. That could be attributed to simply exposure via TV and internet. In other words, it may have nothing to do with their teachers. Or more likely, they just have more English requirements now. Don't jump to the conclusion that things are getting better based on that. That is far from the truth. I would say things are largely the same as they ever were. From what I see in the English classes, there is honestly very little learning going on. It is more like pandemonium if you ask me. Off topic but I think at the heart of the issue is that the Thai teachers make a point to not support and show respect to the foreigners, and the kids do likewise. Some of the issue is really as simple as that.

Edited July 29, 2014 by isawasnake

attrayant · July 29, 2014

So you would allow someone who chose not to get an education to educate your child?

What does "chose not to get an education" mean? Because quite a few people graduate college and still somehow fail to get an education. Conversely, many people become highly literate, accomplished professionals in spite not having a degree.

Teachers do more than teach; they act as role models for highly impressionable young ones.

Yes, and they do that via their attitude, behavior and coaching methods. A child cannot tell, just by association, if a teacher is a degree holder.

Look, there is no litmus test for teachers. The fact that a person holds a degree does not automatically make them qualified to perform any job. That's why we conduct interviews. And the fact that a person does not hold a degree should not automatically disqualify them from obtaining a job. Again, that's why we have interviews.

Franky Bear · July 29, 2014

This might not sit well but i am all for much stronger laws on "teachers"

Do you employ an electrician in your home that is qualified with the right papers, or do you get a guy in the pub that "knows a bit" about electricity?

A fair analogy but you really should have picked another trade. When it comes to finding a sparky in Thailand, down the pub (or karaoke bar) is probably the only avenue.

I work offshore mate. My trade papers are just fine :)

Franky Bear · July 29, 2014

I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.

I've seen this type of statement made before, but nobody has ever said what it is about a uni degree that makes one qualified to teach English. Especially considering, most degrees have nothing to do with English or teaching.

It means they understand education.

Compare it to someone who does a 4 week coursed on a laptop...... i know what i'd rather for my kids

casualbiker · July 29, 2014

I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.
I've seen this type of statement made before, but nobody has ever said what it is about a uni degree that makes one qualified to teach English. Especially considering, most degrees have nothing to do with English or teaching.

It means they understand education.

Compare it to someone who does a 4 week coursed on a laptop...... i know what i'd rather for my kids

We are not talking about YOUR kids.
You work offshore and earn more in 2 days than a TEFL teacher earns in a month.

So therefore you CAN afford an international or at minimum an EP school. Most Thais cannot!

What are those parents and kids going to do?

How are their kids going to get ANY immersion in English conversation?

Understanding education .. Christ have you ever even set foot in a Thai school.

Most administrations don't understand education in the same context as Westerners. Also here in Thailand it's not JUST a degree it's a bachelors degree in education (5year) that's one year more than most countries but bear in mind it's NOT a subject degree just a general degree. So in many ways this idea is actually diluting subject education not improving it. As for conversation teachers requiring a B'ed well that's just farcical.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Edited July 29, 2014 by casualbiker

Water Buffalo · July 29, 2014

This might not sit well but i am all for much stronger laws on "teachers"

Do you employ an electrician in your home that is qualified with the right papers, or do you get a guy in the pub that "knows a bit" about electricity?

Right now it is harder to be a qualified teacher in Thailand than in the UK.

In the UK, i would be a qualified teacher with an English degree and a teaching diploma. I'm not talking about ESL - I'm talking secondary school English for natives.

In Thailand now you need a B.Ed to get the teachers license. It is the strictest requirement in ASEAN, probably all of Asia, and maybe most of the world for ESL teachers.

kleelof · July 29, 2014

I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.

I've seen this type of statement made before, but nobody has ever said what it is about a uni degree that makes one qualified to teach English. Especially considering, most degrees have nothing to do with English or teaching.

It means they understand education.

No it doesn't. It just means they spent 4 more years in school than most of those without uni degrees.

Are you saying someone with just a high school education does not understand education? Are you saying a parent with just a high school education is not qualified to decide what is and is not an appropriate education for their own kids?

I think this whole argument stems from the fact that people with uni degrees are a bit resentful that a uni degree is no longer the golden key that unlocks the doors to your the fantastic future you believed before going into dept paying for it. Back in Farangland, there are MANY MANY MANY people with university degrees working in jobs that are below their education and skills. Or, unemployed all together. So this is just an attempt to try and justify to yourselves there is actually something so special in possessing a university degree.

Really, if you think a university degree makes a substantial difference when it comes to teaching a bunch of 10 year old kids how to speak English, then I would suggest YOU are the one who does not understand education.

Franky Bear · July 29, 2014

I don't want TEFL ppl near anyone's kids. They are not fit for purpose

The end

Water Buffalo · July 29, 2014

I don't want TEFL ppl near anyone's kids. They are not fit for purpose

The end

How about an English degree? 'Cos i got that, and i ain't getting no teachers license any time soon for it in Thailand.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Water Buffalo

Deacon Bell · July 29, 2014

I don't want TEFL ppl near anyone's kids. They are not fit for purpose

The end

kleelof · July 29, 2014

I don't want TEFL ppl near anyone's kids. They are not fit for purpose

The end

Well, they could at least tell you that you need a 'the' between 'for' and 'purpose'.

casualbiker · July 29, 2014

I don't want TEFL ppl near anyone's kids. They are not fit for purpose

The end

So you don't want the kid's in Thailand to understand and converse in English .. ok but a bit selfish really!

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brucetefl · July 29, 2014

These statements are so illogical that it baffles me.

I would hire a trademan who has spent his entire life doing the task. Yes. And native English speakers have been speaking English their entire lives.

Would i hire someone to do the wiring on my house who spent 4 years studying how to lay bricks? I would only care about how well he could do the wiring and I could care less about his time spent studying brick laying.

TEFL is a joke and should be banned IMO.

You are NOT a teacher. As i said before you don't hire an unqualified tradesman to do a job in your home do you?

TEFL is a bad loophole. It doesn;t matter if you are good or not. I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.

You should all also bring a Police report from your home country no more than 2 months old.

Franky Bear · July 29, 2014

These statements are so illogical that it baffles me.

I would hire a trademan who has spent his entire life doing the task. Yes. And native English speakers have been speaking English their entire lives.

Would i hire someone to do the wiring on my house who spent 4 years studying how to lay bricks? I would only care about how well he could do the wiring and I could care less about his time spent studying brick laying.

TEFL is a joke and should be banned IMO.

You are NOT a teacher. As i said before you don't hire an unqualified tradesman to do a job in your home do you?

TEFL is a bad loophole. It doesn;t matter if you are good or not. I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.

You should all also bring a Police report from your home country no more than 2 months old.

Speaking and being able to teach it. Miles apart.

I take it you're a "teacher"?

kleelof · July 29, 2014

These statements are so illogical that it baffles me.

I would hire a trademan who has spent his entire life doing the task. Yes. And native English speakers have been speaking English their entire lives.

Would i hire someone to do the wiring on my house who spent 4 years studying how to lay bricks? I would only care about how well he could do the wiring and I could care less about his time spent studying brick laying.

TEFL is a joke and should be banned IMO.

You are NOT a teacher. As i said before you don't hire an unqualified tradesman to do a job in your home do you?

TEFL is a bad loophole. It doesn;t matter if you are good or not. I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.

You should all also bring a Police report from your home country no more than 2 months old.

Speaking and being able to teach it. Miles apart.

Actually, that's not true when it comes to teaching English as a second or foreign language.

BTW - What qualifies you to know what qualifies others to teach?

brucetefl · July 29, 2014

Many people with degrees have TEFL. And TEFL is the normal qualification for language schools all over Europe.

I don't want TEFL ppl near anyone's kids. They are not fit for purpose

The end

brucetefl · July 29, 2014

Being an expert in a field does not make you a teacher in that field. But it only takes a bit of training to make you capable of teaching. Not an expert, but as Diane Larson Freeman says, and I paraphrase, we do not know exactly how to train teachers but we know they learn the most from actually teaching.

Actually none of my professors in undergrad or grad school had any training in how to teach. They were just experts in the subject matter.

These statements are so illogical that it baffles me.

I would hire a trademan who has spent his entire life doing the task. Yes. And native English speakers have been speaking English their entire lives.

Would i hire someone to do the wiring on my house who spent 4 years studying how to lay bricks? I would only care about how well he could do the wiring and I could care less about his time spent studying brick laying.

TEFL is a joke and should be banned IMO.

You are NOT a teacher. As i said before you don't hire an unqualified tradesman to do a job in your home do you?

TEFL is a bad loophole. It doesn;t matter if you are good or not. I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.

You should all also bring a Police report from your home country no more than 2 months old.

Speaking and being able to teach it. Miles apart.

I take it you're a "teacher"?

casualbiker · July 29, 2014

These statements are so illogical that it baffles me.

I would hire a trademan who has spent his entire life doing the task. Yes. And native English speakers have been speaking English their entire lives.

Would i hire someone to do the wiring on my house who spent 4 years studying how to lay bricks? I would only care about how well he could do the wiring and I could care less about his time spent studying brick laying.

TEFL is a joke and should be banned IMO.

You are NOT a teacher. As i said before you don't hire an unqualified tradesman to do a job in your home do you?

TEFL is a bad loophole. It doesn;t matter if you are good or not. I strongly agree that a university degree should be minimum for working as a teacher.

You should all also bring a Police report from your home country no more than 2 months old.

Speaking and being able to teach it. Miles apart.

I take it you're a "teacher"?

Ohhhh get you "offshore worker"

You are correct and as you don't teach it. And haven't EVER taught it can you honestly say you know what it's like to teach English here in Thailand!

A quick question. You mention you are an offshore worker with trade papers.

When you get newbies starting do you give them instruction and support?
Do you give them a certain amount of on the job training pertaining to that particular installation?

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