Israel and Hamas agree to unconditional 72-hour ceasefire

[Steely Dan]

Many countries have citizenship options based upon on ancestry. For example Italy and many others.

With Israel yes somewhat different due to the diaspora but a similar established principle of immigration.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Spain recently granted the right of citizenship based on ancestry to the descendants of Jews kicked out of Spain around the tome of the reconquista. Predictably some North African Muslims complained that they were not given the same option, conveniently forgetting their ancestors took Spain by military conquest.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[dexterm]

 

Three hours in and Hamas break the truce, for the ninth time in a row.

http://www.debka.com/newsupdatepopup/9272/



Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

One simply cannot dismiss the historical context. This knowledge informs any understanding of credibility, roads to success in peace, and areas where pressure should be brought to leverage peace. "Palestinians" do not want peace. They want to force, at any cost, Israel to reveal it's disproportionate power, it might, it's "Holacuast-like" behavior toward local Arab Muslims. They want to cripple Israel in the court of public opinion. They want to leverage International recognition into legislative condemnation of Israel. By victimization they further this perception. Utterly a tool of total war; an underdog tool. They also want to borrow time in the hopes other regional players join the fray, or another intifada can be mustered.

 

 

You talk as if someone had just found a dusty 2,000 year old title deed in a Jerusalem cellar granting ownership of all Palestine to Jews only in an unbroken hereditary link. The old title deed is quite fanciful of course, but the unbroken hereditary link is even more incredible. There is a fascinating item on wiki about the Right of Return

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#Eligibility_requirements

 

With all the inter marriage and conversions the present Jewish population in Israel contains hundreds of thousands of non Jews.

 

In reply to your other ridiculous claim:  "Palestinians do not want peace”

 

Hamas have offered an indefinite truce and recognition of Israel in its 1967 borders

 

http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915

 

PA and all Arab countries in 2002 and 2007 have offered to recognize Israel in secure permanent borders.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/why-is-israel-so-afraid-of-the-arab-peace-initiative/

 

One group of farsighted Israelis have tried to accommodate the Arab Peace Initiative with their own Israeli Peace Initiative in 2011, but I think that has foundered as Israeli politics grows more right wing.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Peace_Initiative

 

Authors of initiative that calls for two-state solution with 1967 borders say Prime Minister Netanyahu could win public support for their peace proposal

 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053199,00.html

 

A group of businessmen, former defense establishment officials and leading professors presented before the press on Wednesday the "Israeli Peace Initiative" that aims to restart the stalled Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, and urged Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to adopt their proposal.

[dexterm]

 

Many countries have citizenship options based upon on ancestry. For example Italy and many others.

With Israel yes somewhat different due to the diaspora but a similar established principle of immigration.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Spain recently granted the right of citizenship based on ancestry to the descendants of Jews kicked out of Spain around the tome of the reconquista. Predictably some North African Muslims complained that they were not given the same option, conveniently forgetting their ancestors took Spain by military conquest.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

Why on earth can't you look to the future rather than rehashing the past.

[ggold]

 

 

Many countries have citizenship options based upon on ancestry. For example Italy and many others.

With Israel yes somewhat different due to the diaspora but a similar established principle of immigration.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Spain recently granted the right of citizenship based on ancestry to the descendants of Jews kicked out of Spain around the tome of the reconquista. Predictably some North African Muslims complained that they were not given the same option, conveniently forgetting their ancestors took Spain by military conquest.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

Why on earth can't you look to the future rather than rehashing the past.

 

Temper Temper! lol. There is a connection with the Past to the future.   It's just that the past doesn't suit you're narrative!

[dexterm]

arjunadawn wrote (sorry, quotes full): I am uncertain what you mean by demanding to be recognized as a Jewish State, but if so, whats the problem? Israel is a Jewish State inasmuch as America was inherrently Judeo-Christian. Israel's insistence on this point is a simple reduction of two basic demands: 1) Recognition of the State or Israel, and 2), recognition of Jews right to exist. How is this moving goalposts? Israel has always asserted that recognition is a precondition for talks at all!

 

It’s people like me who are the real friends of IsraeI, not the apologists prolonging the conflict. I want to see Israelis living in peace and prosperity with all their neighbors. And what prosperity it would be...the richest piece of real estate in the world.

 

The USA does not call itself the United Judeo Christian States of America and insist that all its immigrants must be Judeo Christians.

 

PA and all Arab countries plus Iran have already agreed to recognize the State of Israel, when Israel one day decides exactly where its borders are that is. Better ask Netanyahu why he started insisting 7 years ago on recognition of the Jewish State of Israel must now be a precondition for talks. He’s pretty heavy duty about it; he must have his reasons. Could be a pretext for making non Jews, non citizens if they won’t swear allegiance to a Jewish state when they themselves are Muslims or Christians, or want to marry a non Jew and bring the spouse to live in Israel. That’s to name but a couple of negative consequences for non Jewish citizens. If Israel professes to be a democracy, why bring religion into the equation at all?

 

Your “2), recognition of Jews right to exist.” Is such a vague cliché, it’s meaningless. Jews have a right to exist anywhere in the world they like right now. I hope one day anti Semitism is confined to the rubbish can of history along with all other forms of racism/religionism.  If Israel wants to ensure a Jewish demographic majority, they can always insist on the Jewish Right of Return in a final peace agreement.

 

 

[Ulysses G.]

It’s people like me who are the real friends of IsraeI, not the apologists prolonging the conflict.

I doubt if anyone who is honest and reading your posts would agree with that. You post one dishonest, anti-Israel point after another and just ignore it when it is proven that you are wrong with reliable sources - even information from your own links that you have somehow "overlooked".  

[dexterm]

 

 

 

Many countries have citizenship options based upon on ancestry. For example Italy and many others.

With Israel yes somewhat different due to the diaspora but a similar established principle of immigration.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Spain recently granted the right of citizenship based on ancestry to the descendants of Jews kicked out of Spain around the tome of the reconquista. Predictably some North African Muslims complained that they were not given the same option, conveniently forgetting their ancestors took Spain by military conquest.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

Why on earth can't you look to the future rather than rehashing the past.

 

Temper Temper! lol. There is a connection with the Past to the future.   It's just that the past doesn't suit you're [sic]  narrative!

 

 

More pity and sadness.

 

I will gladly discuss the history of the whole conflict but it is considered off topic.

 

In the meantime try www.palestineremembered.com/

[Johpa]

The pro Israeli lobby continuously bang on that allowing displaced Palestinians a right of return is wrong.

 

What about the Israeli Law of Return?

 

Can one of you please explain why you believe it is wrong for displaced Palestinian refugees to return home, but it is it right for any Jew or even anyone with Jewish ancestry to move to and live in Israel and obtain Israeli citizenship?

 

It is not a matter of right or wrong.  All independent nation states are allowed to make these sort of choices and those choices are then reflected in their laws.  But it is a valid rhetorical question, just as asking why the Palestinians, who share an identical culture with neighboring nation-states, were not absorbed by their brethren back in 1947 but were forced to live in refugee camps.  But, asking rhetorical questions gets us nowhere.

 

Alas, the ceasefire has failed yet again with both sides blaming the other.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Johpa

[Ulysses G.]

In the meantime try www.palestineremembered.com/

It's great for a laugh or to enjoy fiction (badly) disguised as fact.

[ggold]

 

 

 

 

Spain recently granted the right of citizenship based on ancestry to the descendants of Jews kicked out of Spain around the tome of the reconquista. Predictably some North African Muslims complained that they were not given the same option, conveniently forgetting their ancestors took Spain by military conquest.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

Why on earth can't you look to the future rather than rehashing the past.

 

Temper Temper! lol. There is a connection with the Past to the future.   It's just that the past doesn't suit you're [sic]  narrative!

 

 

More pity and sadness.

 

I will gladly discuss the history of the whole conflict but it is considered off topic.

 

In the meantime try www.palestineremembered.com/

 

 

More propaganda, really! Why don't you just come out and say Israel shouldn't exist, after all that seems to be the gist of you're posts?

 

I will gladly discuss the history of the whole conflict but it is considered off topic.

 

I don't think you could discuss the History because the minute we go back 2000 years you reject everything said. Though this even for the Palestinians is of biblical proportion.
 

[dexterm]

 

It’s people like me who are the real friends of IsraeI, not the apologists prolonging the conflict.

I doubt if anyone who is honest and reading your posts would agree with that. You post one dishonest, anti-Israel point after another and just ignore it when it is proven that you are wrong with reliable sources - even information from your own links that you have somehow "overlooked".  

 

 

You may think that your habit of prefacing your generalisations with ”Everyone knows that...” “No sane person would think...” “I doubt if anyone who is honest...” somehow strengthens your arguments. It does the opposite...demonstrates that you have run out of logic.

 

Blessed are the peacemakers, not the warmongers.

 

Shalom.

[Ulysses G.]

Thanks for the debating tips. I hope that you don't mind that I will completely ignore them. Do you really think that your posts are convincing anyone who does not already agree with you? You have been proven wrong time after time, yet you keep on posting the same old discredited twaddle. 

Edited August 1, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

ggold wrote: Why don't you just come out and say Israel shouldn't exist, after all that seems to be the gist of you're posts?

 

Far far from it. I accept the State of Israel. There is no turning back the clock 100 years or 2,000 years even.

 

But if Israel could accept its borders of 47 years ago (plus a spot of horse trading), they could gradually ratchet down the conflict , and within a few years be living side by side in peace with its neighbors. 

Edited August 1, 2014 by dexterm

[dexterm]

 

The pro Israeli lobby continuously bang on that allowing displaced Palestinians a right of return is wrong.

 

What about the Israeli Law of Return?

 

Can one of you please explain why you believe it is wrong for displaced Palestinian refugees to return home, but it is it right for any Jew or even anyone with Jewish ancestry to move to and live in Israel and obtain Israeli citizenship?

 

It is not a matter of right or wrong.  All independent nation states are allowed to make these sort of choices and those choices are then reflected in their laws.  But it is a valid rhetorical question, just as asking why the Palestinians, who share an identical culture with neighboring nation-states, were not absorbed by their brethren back in 1947 but were forced to live in refugee camps.  But, asking rhetorical questions gets us nowhere.

 

Alas, the ceasefire has failed yet again with both sides blaming the other.

 

 

But you don't make these sorts of choices and laws if you are trying to reach a peace agreement with the very people you displaced to establish yourself as a majority in a land where they used to live. Not very conducive to happy co-existence to make one group of a society superior to another purely on the grounds of religion. 

[ggold]

 

ggold wrote: Why don't you just come out and say Israel shouldn't exist, after all that seems to be the gist of you're posts?

 

Far far from it. I accept the State of Israel. There is no turning back the clock 100 years or 2,000 years even.

 

But if Israel could accept its borders of 47 years ago (plus a spot of horse trading), they could gradually ratchet down the conflict , and within a few years be living side by side in peace with its neighbors. 

 

 

OK, But what if the neighbours don't want to make peace?

 

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS

On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:

-------------------------------------------

'[Peace]  initiatives,   and   so-called   peaceful   solutions   and

international conferences are in contradiction to the  principles  of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the  infidels  as  arbitrators  in  the  lands  of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem  except  by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

The Call to Jihad:

------------------

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem  land,  Jihad  becomes  the

individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation,

it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

Anti-Semitic Incitement:

------------------------

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees,  and  the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

Any suggestions how you make peace with that kind of sentiment?

[arjunadawn]

 

 

Three hours in and Hamas break the truce, for the ninth time in a row.

http://www.debka.com/newsupdatepopup/9272/



Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

One simply cannot dismiss the historical context. This knowledge informs any understanding of credibility, roads to success in peace, and areas where pressure should be brought to leverage peace. "Palestinians" do not want peace. They want to force, at any cost, Israel to reveal it's disproportionate power, it might, it's "Holacuast-like" behavior toward local Arab Muslims. They want to cripple Israel in the court of public opinion. They want to leverage International recognition into legislative condemnation of Israel. By victimization they further this perception. Utterly a tool of total war; an underdog tool. They also want to borrow time in the hopes other regional players join the fray, or another intifada can be mustered.

 

 

You talk as if someone had just found a dusty 2,000 year old title deed in a Jerusalem cellar granting ownership of all Palestine to Jews only in an unbroken hereditary link. The old title deed is quite fanciful of course, but the unbroken hereditary link is even more incredible. There is a fascinating item on wiki about the Right of Return

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#Eligibility_requirements

 

With all the inter marriage and conversions the present Jewish population in Israel contains hundreds of thousands of non Jews.

 

In reply to your other ridiculous claim:  "Palestinians do not want peace”

 

Hamas have offered an indefinite truce and recognition of Israel in its 1967 borders

 

http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915

 

PA and all Arab countries in 2002 and 2007 have offered to recognize Israel in secure permanent borders.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/why-is-israel-so-afraid-of-the-arab-peace-initiative/

 

One group of farsighted Israelis have tried to accommodate the Arab Peace Initiative with their own Israeli Peace Initiative in 2011, but I think that has foundered as Israeli politics grows more right wing.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Peace_Initiative

 

Authors of initiative that calls for two-state solution with 1967 borders say Prime Minister Netanyahu could win public support for their peace proposal

 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053199,00.html

 

A group of businessmen, former defense establishment officials and leading professors presented before the press on Wednesday the "Israeli Peace Initiative" that aims to restart the stalled Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, and urged Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to adopt their proposal.

 

 

You and I clearly differ on a number of points, can stipulate some, but overall we are a microcosm of the problem. But I do want to tell you I respect you! I do. I admire anyone who is motivated enough to seek information, form an opinion, and then argue their point of view. I think that makes for a great environment in a place like TV. I want to thank you for sharing your viewpoint with me; really. Lastly, I fear the consequences of either side destroying the other- everyone will be sucked into something very, very ugly.

 

[arjunadawn]

The pro Israeli lobby continuously bang on that allowing displaced Palestinians a right of return is wrong.

 

What about the Israeli Law of Return?

 

Can one of you please explain why you believe it is wrong for displaced Palestinian refugees to return home, but it is it right for any Jew or even anyone with Jewish ancestry to move to and live in Israel and obtain Israeli citizenship?

 

I am unsure I can defend the disparity, but I am aware of the dangers one poses. Israel, as a State, has the prerogative to offer a vast array of open doors to whom it wishes, including Jews throughout the world. As I have said previously, the diaspora of thousands of years had Jews proclaiming throughout the world "Jerusalem next year." Clearly the archetypical recall engrained in the minds of Jews collectively informs their approach to allowing Jews to Israel. 

 

It is not correct that all the Arabs who fled to Jordan were forced to do so. Most voluntarily exodus. Again, it is the prerogative of any State to define their constituency, immigration, and emigration laws. Even had the Arabs been driven from their homes and lands the fact remains Right of Return is a poison pill. To consume this pill the host will die. Knowing this, and still asserting, under the cover of "humanity," the right of return, one explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel. It cannot be both ways. It is simple logic. So, the issue of right of return is off the table; it will not happen. What, then, can happen that will tend such grievances, even if partially?

 

Knowing Israel is a democracy the "Palestinians" seek to use the same mechanism of Lawfare (Jihad) currently being deployed in the Europe, and to a lesser extent the US, to remake the map of the country via constituency.

[arjunadawn]

 

 

ggold wrote: Why don't you just come out and say Israel shouldn't exist, after all that seems to be the gist of you're posts?

 

Far far from it. I accept the State of Israel. There is no turning back the clock 100 years or 2,000 years even.

 

But if Israel could accept its borders of 47 years ago (plus a spot of horse trading), they could gradually ratchet down the conflict , and within a few years be living side by side in peace with its neighbors. 

 

 

OK, But what if the neighbours don't want to make peace?

 

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS

On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:

-------------------------------------------

'[Peace]  initiatives,   and   so-called   peaceful   solutions   and

international conferences are in contradiction to the  principles  of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the  infidels  as  arbitrators  in  the  lands  of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem  except  by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

The Call to Jihad:

------------------

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem  land,  Jihad  becomes  the

individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation,

it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

Anti-Semitic Incitement:

------------------------

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees,  and  the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

Any suggestions how you make peace with that kind of sentiment?

 

 

Wow! Let this be posted twice in this forum; how totally revealing. I had not read this in detail, in total. I feel somewhat validated by their own declaration. This is not rhetoric guys and gals; these are the operating principles of an organization that was elected with broad support. Just as global polls reveal a majority of Muslims support Jihad the election of Hamas to lead reflects the will of the people. How, then, can you whitewash this when condemning Israel? It cannot be done, honestly.
 

[arjunadawn]

 

ggold wrote: Why don't you just come out and say Israel shouldn't exist, after all that seems to be the gist of you're posts?

 

Far far from it. I accept the State of Israel. There is no turning back the clock 100 years or 2,000 years even.

 

But if Israel could accept its borders of 47 years ago (plus a spot of horse trading), they could gradually ratchet down the conflict , and within a few years be living side by side in peace with its neighbors. 

 

 

If there is no turning back the clock 100 years or 2,000 by what logic are we turning it back 47 years?

If we can turn it back 47 years why not then turn it back to 69CE?

 

I think most here agree that history is relevant to inform our choices, and avoid pitfalls, but utterly useless as pretext. Yet you would do just the thing you admonish against- turning back the clock.

[Johpa]

Although the details are not yet 100% clear, I have to come down upon the blunderbuss Netanyahu on this one for over reacting once again. He needs to man up, grow a pair, and accept a few casualties when it comes combatant-to-combatant casualties.  In this case it appears that he retaliated against Gaza as a whole for something far less than a rocket attack upon Israel.  This man is still living in the infantile world of military training where the group is forced to endure punishment for the failings of the individual. Some of us who use to live in Israel often noted that rather mature 18-year-olds would enter the army only to come out as relatively immature 21-year-olds.  And my experience of this phenomena also included one of Netanyahu's peers from Sayeret Matkal.  I should also note that this degradation in maturity is, in my humble opinion, not isolated to the IDF.

[CBR250]

 

If Israel wanted a peaceful solution they have had 60 years to sort one out..the latest being the whole  Arab world’s willingness to recognize the state of Israel in 2002 and 2007 within secure permanent borders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

All Israel has done is grab more land illegally and move the goalposts since 2007 now demanding recognition of the Jewish State of Israel. A powerful right wing Zionist faction now wants to annex the whole of the West Bank, make its Palestinian inhabitants speak Hebrew and pledge loyalty to a Jewish state otherwise they will be denied citizenship. That’s Israel’s idea of a peaceful solution...to wipe Palestinians out of their own land.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israeli-right-says-no-to-two-states-yes-to-greater-israel/2013/11/05/aa9068ee-454d-11e3-95a9-3f15b5618ba8_story.html

 

 

This post goes to the heart of the matter. Israel is the main new colonial power of the 21st century. The jump to the Jewish state by Netanyahu is a blatant middle finger to anyone desiring peace - not just Palestinians, but the USA, the UN and the EU.

And how do our resident apologists explain this move to a Jewish state alongside the contradictory statement that Arab-Israeli citizens have equal rights in Israel??
 

[dexterm]

 

 

ggold wrote: Why don't you just come out and say Israel shouldn't exist, after all that seems to be the gist of you're posts?

 

Far far from it. I accept the State of Israel. There is no turning back the clock 100 years or 2,000 years even.

 

But if Israel could accept its borders of 47 years ago (plus a spot of horse trading), they could gradually ratchet down the conflict , and within a few years be living side by side in peace with its neighbors. 

 

 

OK, But what if the neighbours don't want to make peace?

 

Any suggestions how you make peace with that kind of sentiment?

 

 

Israel has its extremist groups too... Eretz Yisrael Shelanu,  Our Land of Israel , SOS Israel, that seeks to prevent both the creation of a Palestinian state as well as the dismantling of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Kach and Kahane Chai ...now a banned Jewish terrorist group,  but whose one time member was Avigdor Lieberman the present Israeli Foreign Minister

http://www.haaretz.com/news/elections-2009-haaretz-exclusive-avigdor-lieberman-said-to-be-ex-member-of-banned-radical-kach-movement-1.266808

.. a bit hard talking peace with the likes of him too...or the Meir Kahane, Baruch Goldstein, Yigal Amirs of this world.

 

Talk peace with the PA, or grab hold of an olive branch when one is offered by Hamas http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.25691

 

When a deal is reached put it to a referendum in both Israel and Palestinian communities. I’m sure the majority crave for peace.

 

When people see the benefits of peace and prosperity, it takes the wind out of the sails of the extremist fringe on both sides.

 

 

[dexterm]

 

 

ggold wrote: Why don't you just come out and say Israel shouldn't exist, after all that seems to be the gist of you're posts?

 

Far far from it. I accept the State of Israel. There is no turning back the clock 100 years or 2,000 years even.

 

But if Israel could accept its borders of 47 years ago (plus a spot of horse trading), they could gradually ratchet down the conflict , and within a few years be living side by side in peace with its neighbors. 

 

 

If there is no turning back the clock 100 years or 2,000 by what logic are we turning it back 47 years?

If we can turn it back 47 years why not then turn it back to 69CE?

 

I think most here agree that history is relevant to inform our choices, and avoid pitfalls, but utterly useless as pretext. Yet you would do just the thing you admonish against- turning back the clock.

 

 

Because ...

turning back the clock 100 years when they were a majority would suit the Palestinians

turning back the clock 2000 years would suit the Jewish Israelis

 

turning back the clock 47 years to the 1967 borders is within living memory and will achieve peace for both the Palestinians and Israelis..its a compromise accepted by the PA and all Arab countries, and almost got over the line at the Camp David summit in 2000 between Arafat and Ehud Barak. It was sooo close...what a tragedy.

[chuckd]

 

One simply cannot dismiss the historical context. This knowledge informs any understanding of credibility, roads to success in peace, and areas where pressure should be brought to leverage peace. "Palestinians" do not want peace. They want to force, at any cost, Israel to reveal it's disproportionate power, it might, it's "Holacuast-like" behavior toward local Arab Muslims. They want to cripple Israel in the court of public opinion. They want to leverage International recognition into legislative condemnation of Israel. By victimization they further this perception. Utterly a tool of total war; an underdog tool. They also want to borrow time in the hopes other regional players join the fray, or another intifada can be mustered.

 

 

You talk as if someone had just found a dusty 2,000 year old title deed in a Jerusalem cellar granting ownership of all Palestine to Jews only in an unbroken hereditary link. The old title deed is quite fanciful of course, but the unbroken hereditary link is even more incredible. There is a fascinating item on wiki about the Right of Return

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#Eligibility_requirements

 

With all the inter marriage and conversions the present Jewish population in Israel contains hundreds of thousands of non Jews.

 

In reply to your other ridiculous claim:  "Palestinians do not want peace”

 

Hamas have offered an indefinite truce and recognition of Israel in its 1967 borders

 

http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915

 

PA and all Arab countries in 2002 and 2007 have offered to recognize Israel in secure permanent borders.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/why-is-israel-so-afraid-of-the-arab-peace-initiative/

 

One group of farsighted Israelis have tried to accommodate the Arab Peace Initiative with their own Israeli Peace Initiative in 2011, but I think that has foundered as Israeli politics grows more right wing.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Peace_Initiative

 

Authors of initiative that calls for two-state solution with 1967 borders say Prime Minister Netanyahu could win public support for their peace proposal

 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053199,00.html

 

A group of businessmen, former defense establishment officials and leading professors presented before the press on Wednesday the "Israeli Peace Initiative" that aims to restart the stalled Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, and urged Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to adopt their proposal.

 

 

From your quoted post above:

 

In reply to your other ridiculous claim:  "Palestinians do not want peace”

 

Hamas have offered an indefinite truce and recognition of Israel in its 1967 borders

 

 

An "indefinite truce" is not a peace treaty.  If the Palestinians want peace, then sign a peace treaty.

[Johpa]

Hamas have offered an indefinite truce and recognition of Israel in its 1967 borders

 

 

A leader of Hamas was interviewed on CNN just two days ago where he made it crystal clear that Hamas did not recognize the State of Israel.  So again we see that both sides are led by failures, pick a side and become a failure too.

[CBR250]

 

I am uncertain what you mean by demanding to be recognized as a Jewish State, but if so, whats the problem? Israel is a Jewish State inasmuch as America was inherrently Judeo-Christian. Israel's insistence on this point is a simple reduction of two basic demands: 1) Recognition of the State or Israel, and 2), recognition of Jews right to exist. How is this moving goalposts? Israel has always asserted that recognition is a precondition for talks at all!

 

 

The US may be "inherently Judeo-Christian", but that is not the same as it being a declared Christian State. Or a Jewish State. Or an Islamic state. The US specifically and consciously promotes freedom of religious expression - even though it may at times lead to fundamentalist fanatics - like Timothy McVeigh.

 

The concept of a"Jewish" state becomes quite problematic when one remembers that 20% of the citizens of Israel are Arabs, most of whom are Muslim or Christian - and probably with a few atheists / agnostics as well. So, I have no problem with "inherently" Jewish part of the concept (similar to the USA), but the proposal from Netanyahu is for a formally declared basic law that enshrines a "Jewish State".  But if this is a basic law, which will takes precedence when it conflicts with other basic laws that enshrine democratic principles? This proposal rings alarm bells all the way back to Europe in the 1930s.

 

[ggold]

 

 

 

ggold wrote: Why don't you just come out and say Israel shouldn't exist, after all that seems to be the gist of you're posts?

 

Far far from it. I accept the State of Israel. There is no turning back the clock 100 years or 2,000 years even.

 

But if Israel could accept its borders of 47 years ago (plus a spot of horse trading), they could gradually ratchet down the conflict , and within a few years be living side by side in peace with its neighbors. 

 

 

OK, But what if the neighbours don't want to make peace?

 

Any suggestions how you make peace with that kind of sentiment?

 

 

Israel has its extremist groups too... Eretz Yisrael Shelanu,  Our Land of Israel , SOS Israel, that seeks to prevent both the creation of a Palestinian state as well as the dismantling of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Kach and Kahane Chai ...now a banned Jewish terrorist group,  but whose one time member was Avigdor Lieberman the present Israeli Foreign Minister

http://www.haaretz.com/news/elections-2009-haaretz-exclusive-avigdor-lieberman-said-to-be-ex-member-of-banned-radical-kach-movement-1.266808

.. a bit hard talking peace with the likes of him too...or the Meir Kahane, Baruch Goldstein, Yigal Amirs of this world.

 

Talk peace with the PA, or grab hold of an olive branch when one is offered by Hamas http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.25691

 

When a deal is reached put it to a referendum in both Israel and Palestinian communities. I’m sure the majority crave for peace.

 

When people see the benefits of peace and prosperity, it takes the wind out of the sails of the extremist fringe on both sides.

 

 

 

 

So really you don't have an answer you can only throw extremists on the Israeli side into the conversation! So again now that you know the Hamas covenant (if you went to the link) how do you make peace with Hamas?

 

[konying]

 

 

 

ggold wrote: Why don't you just come out and say Israel shouldn't exist, after all that seems to be the gist of you're posts?

 

Far far from it. I accept the State of Israel. There is no turning back the clock 100 years or 2,000 years even.

 

But if Israel could accept its borders of 47 years ago (plus a spot of horse trading), they could gradually ratchet down the conflict , and within a few years be living side by side in peace with its neighbors. 

 

 

If there is no turning back the clock 100 years or 2,000 by what logic are we turning it back 47 years?

If we can turn it back 47 years why not then turn it back to 69CE?

 

I think most here agree that history is relevant to inform our choices, and avoid pitfalls, but utterly useless as pretext. Yet you would do just the thing you admonish against- turning back the clock.

 

 

Because ...

turning back the clock 100 years when they were a majority would suit the Palestinians

turning back the clock 2000 years would suit the Jewish Israelis

 

turning back the clock 47 years to the 1967 borders is within living memory and will achieve peace for both the Palestinians and Israelis..its a compromise accepted by the PA and all Arab countries, and almost got over the line at the Camp David summit in 2000 between Arafat and Ehud Barak. It was sooo close...what a tragedy.

 

 

If there is no nation Palestine, how can there be Palestinians?

 

There were people living in the so called Palestine, Egyptians and Jordanians, their right of return would be Jordan and Egypt.

 

Yasser Arafat was Egyptian demanding right of return, only to return to Palestine?

 

With so many arab countries, why have they not absolved so called Palestinians? Keep in mind the so called Palestinians are arabs.

 

With such strong support of Arab world, why none of them have opened their borders for refugees? None at all

 

Jordan keeps them under armed guard in camps for decades now

 

In the current conflict, with all the noise and outrage, not only none of the arab countries opened its borders to take on civilians, but they hardly provide any aid.

 

What has Hamas done to protect its people?

 

Hamas had enough building materials to build endless tunnels, but not enough building materials to build infrastructure?

 

Hospitals are short of medication, yet Hamas is NOT short of rockets?

 

Government employees have not been paid because of bad economy and blockade yet Hamas had enough money for hundreds of thousands of rockets and building material for the tunnels? used ONLY to attack Israel?

 

If you actually bother to think and open your eyes, the "right of return" is an excuse of Arab world using their own brothers as pawns to wage proxy war against Israel and the West.

 

They are well aware, it is simply impossible and would never happened and this is why they insist on it.

 

PA has never compromised on anything at all, EVER!!! and i dare you to show me other wise.

 

Current Hamas demands are the Israel lifts the blockade, and what does Hamas offer in return? NOTHING, not even a promise to stop firing rockets in the near future

 

Hamas demands Egypt opens its border? Only being well aware this has nothing to do with Israel.

 

Hamas is claiming population in Gaza has no electricity, but just a week ago or so, Hamas targeted and did hit plant supplying electricity in Gaza.

 

Now the world is up in arms about Israel, but why has not anyone asked simple question? which is What has and what is Hamas doing to protect its civilians?

 

It is the duty of government and army to protect its civilians and the answer would be???

[Jingthing]

 

 

I am uncertain what you mean by demanding to be recognized as a Jewish State, but if so, whats the problem? Israel is a Jewish State inasmuch as America was inherrently Judeo-Christian. Israel's insistence on this point is a simple reduction of two basic demands: 1) Recognition of the State or Israel, and 2), recognition of Jews right to exist. How is this moving goalposts? Israel has always asserted that recognition is a precondition for talks at all!

 

 

The US may be "inherently Judeo-Christian", but that is not the same as it being a declared Christian State. Or a Jewish State. Or an Islamic state. The US specifically and consciously promotes freedom of religious expression - even though it may at times lead to fundamentalist fanatics - like Timothy McVeigh.

 

The concept of a"Jewish" state becomes quite problematic when one remembers that 20% of the citizens of Israel are Arabs, most of whom are Muslim or Christian - and probably with a few atheists / agnostics as well. So, I have no problem with "inherently" Jewish part of the concept (similar to the USA), but the proposal from Netanyahu is for a formally declared basic law that enshrines a "Jewish State".  But if this is a basic law, which will takes precedence when it conflicts with other basic laws that enshrine democratic principles? This proposal rings alarm bells all the way back to Europe in the 1930s.

 

 

I don't get your point. Different countries have different political systems. There are MANY Islamic theocracies. Then there are many democracies. Israel doesn't need to have the exact same kind of democracy as the USA any more than Thailand does. Zionism is about POLITICAL SELF DETERMINATION for the Jewish people and it was realized in the state of Israel. Yes, most Jews want that state to exist. It's not unreasonable considering the history of the the Jews. 

[Wat dee]

There is a fairly unfamiliar concept to the west which is widely practiced in Islamic warfare. It involves entering into treaties and cease fires only long enough or at all, to further entrench forces and strengthen yourself, only! Otherwise you give no quarter to the infidel, even if they are "of the Book."

While the West thinks cease fires represent the adults coming to the table to make best effort, in the practice and history on Islamic warfare these times require specific actions and preparations to further jihad. In clear holy mandate it's authorized to lie and enter into treaties and cease fires until your position is made better, then to continue war.

With Israel likely wanting a peaceful environment and safe/stable trading partners, and Hamas (and more or less Fatah) wanting the destruction of Israel, it's hard to see on what fulcrum peace may be leveraged- they both remain worlds apart. Until you can know your enemy you can never prevail.

Let them have the extra time to collect more rocks! Real re-enactment of holocaust, jews winning 1000-1.