Redesigning Cities For People, No More Cars.

[The Skipper]

I didn't know, London is the EV capitol.

I have heard they are very progressive at controlling traffic.

Pretty good story here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cars/story/0,,1815719,00.html

[otherstuff1957]

I had some well educated adult students read an article about traffic problems and then had them discuss potential solutions. When their conversation flagged, I suggested that the city of Bangkok institute and 'entrance fee' for non-commercial cars and trucks. My students instantly rejected this idea! "Thai people poor! Cannot pay!"

Hmmm... So, Thai people can pay 1 to 3 million baht for a car, but cannot afford a 100 or 200 baht for fee for the priviledge of sitting in a Bangkok traffic jam.

Judging from their reactions, I suspect that anyone who proposes a practical social/economic solution to BKK's traffic problems would be committing political suicide.

[Plus]

Bangkok is a large, large city, Skipper. You mentioned an average trip from Soi 55 to Wireless. For some, maybe, not for the majority.

Two of the most congested intersections - Ramintra Km8 and Kasetsart. Do you know where they are? Do you have any idea how far they are from either Soi 55 or Wireless? Have you ever seen a Monday morning traffic on the tollway outside Don Muang? It's not any better on the expressway from Muang Tong Thani, it's even worse on Ramintra - Ekamai, or Sukhaphiban 3. In fact on any major road leading into the city.

Not all these people go downtown, as city grows, jobs move out too. Tesco Lotus HQ are on Srinakarin road, for example, and the traffic there is as appaling as on Sathorn.

I see three stages here - homes to mass transit, mass transit itself, and mass-transit-office. Segways are ok for the last step, and so are free, communal bikes like in France. In Japan they propose small cars for one-two people which you rent for short trips.

I was thinking about this - making entire city blocks free from cars. Parking buildings at the entrances and some sort of "Segway" inside.

I also want pedestrians banned from streets reserved for cars. Pedestrian traffic brings all sorts of vendors, sidewalk cafes, motorbikes etc. It spills on the road and there are cars stopping and parking and cars carspulling out - it's a nightmare for traffic, and for people too. They should all be inside and shops should make their front doors facing inside, not the streets.

[Sing_Sling]

I see three stages here - homes to mass transit, mass transit itself, and mass-transit-office. Segways are ok for the last step, and so are free, communal bikes like in France. In Japan they propose small cars for one-two people which you rent for short trips

I think this is the way to go, and it is being done in many cities where the public transportation network is developed enough to provide a relatively hassle-free commute.

Here in Singapore the government is in charge of the number of cars registered, it has nothing to do with supply and demand. Having said that, the abovementioned public transport infrastructure is brilliant. When I first moved here almost six years ago was the first time since I was 17 that I didn't have a car . . . now I don't miss not having one as taxis are relatively inexpensive and clean and new, trains (both MRT and LRT) are fantastic and bus services reach everwhere.

Singapore can do this because of its size and wealth and the government's control on urban development.

Some of the practical pitfalls of the segway in our regions is:

a) Constant rain . . . Let's face it, we don't like getting wet, especially on the way to work

Shopping . . . Food shopping or even clothes shopping etc . . . would be impractical, where would one store the groceries?

and too many more to mention.

As for Bangkok being one of the filthiest and most polluted cities in the world . . . when we forst moved to Bangkok in the early 60's, it was (so my parents tell me) simply paradise.

Now I get so frustrated at the pathetic local governments not using bio-fuels for their public transportation instead of petro-diesel, even though it is cheaper and a locally produced product . . . Those busses that spew out black crud all over street-side hawkers, adding to the short life span of the city's residents. Bio-fuels are completely harm-free . . . but there's not much graft in it for the men in white . . . but they are trying.

[The Skipper]

I had some well educated adult students read an article about traffic problems and then had them discuss potential solutions. When their conversation flagged, I suggested that the city of Bangkok institute and 'entrance fee' for non-commercial cars and trucks. My students instantly rejected this idea! "Thai people poor! Cannot pay!"

Hmmm... So, Thai people can pay 1 to 3 million baht for a car, but cannot afford a 100 or 200 baht for fee for the priviledge of sitting in a Bangkok traffic jam.

Judging from their reactions, I suspect that anyone who proposes a practical social/economic solution to BKK's traffic problems would be committing political suicide.

That 100bt fee hurts, they feel it. Thats the point. It will make them reconsider taking the car.

Mass transit will be the good looking option.

The real challange is getting people that last kilometer or two without their car.

Singapore has a fee system for entering congested areas. Road pricing. It's fair.

Penalize the cars and put the money in busses, trains etc.

They have 1 car for every 6 people in Singapore.

Bangkok has 1 car for every 2 people.

How do they do it down there?

Groceries won't be a problem when you have the optional Segway buddy to haul your stuff.

http://www.supersegway.com/video/segway_fo...trees3,8meg.mov

Edited July 11, 2006 by The Skipper

[Donz]

I hate public transport.

[Plus]

I knew it would come to that - penalise the cars and put the money in buses/public transport.

The government already milks autoindustry to death, it's the second largest source of income, after alcohol, yet we hear "penalize" time and time again.

When I drive downtown I'm amazed at percentage of imported cars - those downtown folks paid 3-4 times their actual price already, how much farther are you going to penalize them? Or people like me, who drive upto 100 km a day and rarely approach any BTS station, why should we be penalised for the convenience of the same downtown living folks?

What do we get for all the money we pay in various car taxes? Roads? No nearly enough. Mass transit? Not nearly enough. The government is too incompetent to be given any large sum of money, there's no point in throwing good money after bad, hoping some of it will stick.

I hope there's a bit more planning goes into financing. "Penalize the motorists" is not going to cut it.

BTW, I believe that car sales, especially luxury models, are shrinking for the second year in the row. That is offset by surging pickup sales, of course. It's largely irrelevant to this thread itself, but here's an example how the government's inept taxation stiffles introduction of new, clean technologies, hybrids and smaller cars in favor of diesel run pickups.

[AmeriThai]

I had some well educated adult students read an article about traffic problems and then had them discuss potential solutions. When their conversation flagged, I suggested that the city of Bangkok institute and 'entrance fee' for non-commercial cars and trucks. My students instantly rejected this idea! "Thai people poor! Cannot pay!"

It would've been interesting to have given the students a choice:

1- Pay an entrance fee to enter the city with your car.

2- If you leave your car outside the city, no entrance fee and free use of a Segway.

I'd be willing to bet they'd gleefully choose paying the entrance fee.

[Sing_Sling]

I had some well educated adult students read an article about traffic problems and then had them discuss potential solutions. When their conversation flagged, I suggested that the city of Bangkok institute and 'entrance fee' for non-commercial cars and trucks. My students instantly rejected this idea! "Thai people poor! Cannot pay!"

Hmmm... So, Thai people can pay 1 to 3 million baht for a car, but cannot afford a 100 or 200 baht for fee for the priviledge of sitting in a Bangkok traffic jam.

Judging from their reactions, I suspect that anyone who proposes a practical social/economic solution to BKK's traffic problems would be committing political suicide.

That 100bt fee hurts, they feel it. Thats the point. It will make them reconsider taking the car.

Mass transit will be the good looking option.

The real challange is getting people that last kilometer or two without their car.

Singapore has a fee system for entering congested areas. Road pricing. It's fair.

Penalize the cars and put the money in busses, trains etc.

They have 1 car for every 6 people in Singapore.

Bangkok has 1 car for every 2 people.

How do they do it down there?

Groceries won't be a problem when you have the optional Segway buddy to haul your stuff.

http://www.supersegway.com/video/segway_fo...trees3,8meg.mov

One could imagine the The Skipper being the Segway rep for Thailand

I also have no problem in 'peanalising' the private cars for using - lt's face it, private tranport is what causes many of the city's ills.

I don't think the Singapore example could be used in Thailand. Here the government has total control over new car regsitrations and one needs to get a COE (Certificate of Entitlement) before being allowed to buy/register a car.

That alone costs more than the average annual Thai income. After that one needs to buy a car at the very inflated price the government sets and there is no price competition for customers as cars are pretty much spoken for when they are still on the ships.

Added to this one car only keep the car for ten years, when it has to be 'sold' back to the government. It's quite confusing and I could go on and on, but suffice it to say that this place is so tiny and the public transport so good that having a car is almost a folly.