Is there a glut in NES FT's in Thailand?

[squarethecircle]

I keep seeing people claim that there is huge demand for NES here, but I've been travelling around the country over the past month, and even in rural parts have seen obvious NES FT's (well anyways f-rangs with the white shirt and tie and briefcase, but not the Jehovah's Witness looking ones). So is there any data to suggest there really is still a huge insatiable demand for NES, or are open positions generally filled pretty quickly?

Just asking out of curiosity.

[casualbiker]

Schools have teachers. Schools need teachers. Same every year .. maybe more so this year due to visa. Work permit. Teaching license problems!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[schondie]

I've advertised a couple of fairly decent jobs over the past month and only received replies from Filipinos, Indians and Cameroonians. Not one NES replied as many have moved onto pastures new after the TCT caused a problem with the third waiver.

I was teaching but became so fed up with the regulations, poor pay, indifferent students and the general attitude of of the school owners/employers that I'm heading back to the UK for a year or so. I think if I had to teach here again I'd go stark raving mad.

[DogNo1]

Why not teach in Japan where you will be paid very well for going mad? The problems for teachers here are similar to the ones in Thailand but the pay makes it worth going on until you save enough money to retire in Thailand. FYI, in 1997, I conducted an in-service class for a roomful of JET teachers who were going nuts trying to motivate their students to want to really learn English. The answer, of course, is that teaching ESL, teaching EFL to students who plan to study in America, Britain, Australia or New Zealand and teaching EFL to students who have no need to use English in their home country are completely different endeavors. Not differentiating between these three groups will leave you feeling frustrated, worthless and burned out. You must fit your goals and methods appropriately.

[squarethecircle]

Why not teach in Japan where you will be paid very well for going mad? The problems for teachers here are similar to the ones in Thailand but the pay makes it worth going on until you save enough money to retire in Thailand. FYI, in 1997, I conducted an in-service class for a roomful of JET teachers who were going nuts trying to motivate their students to want to really learn English. The answer, of course, is that teaching ESL, teaching EFL to students who plan to study in America, Britain, Australia or New Zealand and teaching EFL to students who have no need to use English in their home country are completely different endeavors. Not differentiating between these three groups will leave you feeling frustrated, worthless and burned out. You must fit your goals and methods appropriately.

Okay, but I am confused about the difference between EFL (English as a Foreign Language?) and ESL (English as a Second Language). Good point, thanks for bringing it up.

And to the OP I guess there is no way to answer for sure, but the stagnant wages make me think there is a consistent supply. Just a bit unsure as I keep seeing people talking about the huge demand for NES FT's.

[casualbiker]

Why not teach in Japan where you will be paid very well for going mad? The problems for teachers here are similar to the ones in Thailand but the pay makes it worth going on until you save enough money to retire in Thailand. FYI, in 1997, I conducted an in-service class for a roomful of JET teachers who were going nuts trying to motivate their students to want to really learn English. The answer, of course, is that teaching ESL, teaching EFL to students who plan to study in America, Britain, Australia or New Zealand and teaching EFL to students who have no need to use English in their home country are completely different endeavors. Not differentiating between these three groups will leave you feeling frustrated, worthless and burned out. You must fit your goals and methods appropriately.

Okay, but I am confused about the difference between EFL (English as a Foreign Language?) and ESL (English as a Second Language). Good point, thanks for bringing it up.

And to the OP I guess there is no way to answer for sure, but the stagnant wages make me think there is a consistent supply. Just a bit unsure as I keep seeing people talking about the huge demand for NES FT's.

ESL is "English as a Second Language" and it usually means that you study English in an English speaking country, being a student there or a non-English speaking immigrant.

EFL is "English as a Foreign Language" and that means you're studying English in a non-English speaking country (your home country of China for example) terms are often used together though with not much difference in meaning.

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Edited August 10, 2014 by casualbiker

[lostinisaan]

Why not teach in Japan where you will be paid very well for going mad? The problems for teachers here are similar to the ones in Thailand but the pay makes it worth going on until you save enough money to retire in Thailand. FYI, in 1997, I conducted an in-service class for a roomful of JET teachers who were going nuts trying to motivate their students to want to really learn English. The answer, of course, is that teaching ESL, teaching EFL to students who plan to study in America, Britain, Australia or New Zealand and teaching EFL to students who have no need to use English in their home country are completely different endeavors. Not differentiating between these three groups will leave you feeling frustrated, worthless and burned out. You must fit your goals and methods appropriately.

Why not teach in Japan where you will be paid very well for going mad?

Maybe because some of us are married to Thai women and have kids as well?--------

[duanebigsby]

I think there were few applicants for jobs even before the TCT changes,

but I'm in Chiang Rai where the labour pool may be smaller. When we were hiring this semester there was only one applicant per job and the school was getting anxious. Luckily those who applied were all decent teachers.

Many EFL teachers are young travelers going from place to place and need to be replaced every year or two. Many just can't hack the chaos which is understandable. To properly help Thailand learn English they could double us all up and reduce class size to below 30. That would require a few thousand teachers, which I think is necessary.

[Maroon Watcher]

,,, yep. Many are queuing at Swampy to get out (WITH and without degrees)

Plus schools hire White face, give then no help, hope they will leave, so they can pay a Thai teacher less.

Then When they get inspected, they hire another. (5 at my school in Less than 2 Years!) "Hello?"

[culicine]

The pool of native speaking applicants has decreased over the last 10 years. Those who are still coming here are here for a holiday or perhaps did a tefl course then a couple of years teaching, and then going back home. The long term expat teachers often have families here and don't change jobs all that often. Schools are more turning to non-native speakers as the pool of farang teachers decreases. This is in part due to changes in paperwork requirements, but a lot of it is to do with the cost of living vs salaries. Salaries haven't increased much over the last 15 years that I have been here, but living costs have doubled or tripled. The old chestnut - 'but it's so much cheaper to live here (compared to the West)', just doesn't wash anymore. Relative teaching salaries are also much different - Philipino teachers earn more in my school than they would teaching back home, but my current salary is only 1/3 of that of a NEW teaching graduate back home. So we can see where the qualified teachers are coming from.

[KhnomKhnom]

Thai-owned businesses' model is based on low pay, low overhead, and never, never lowering retail prices.

This is the Thai-Chinese credo.

Low pay for English teachers indicates there are too many in the potential labor pool and/or the labor is desperate for ANY job in Thailand and "teaching English" is a quick and dirty solution.

I suspect that the single product... English instruction.... businesses will not be able to stand much labor price pressure and will not raise their retail prices. Given chance there will be fewer desperate "any job" people, this may shake out the marginal education operators.

Clearly, if an employer can not/will not work to get you a Work Permit, you laborers will just have to make other arrangements, such as living somewhere else, getting a family/ED/retirement/Elite Card/or something else legal. I cant see the current situation changing for three years, hopefully longer, so best to prepare.

[inutil]

Truth be told, id assume its a knee jerk thing at the moment. Rumours of clampdowns and all that spilling out into issues like Visa exemption lockouts and ed visa problems will have led to people just waiting it out a bit and doing a spot of travelling elsewhere (or popping home for a few months).

Right now Tourist Visas are still on the cards though. For your run of the mill illegal teacher and your run of the mill employer looking to hire someone under ACTUAL market price (when you remove the supply of under the counter teachers), then rationally its business as usual. As i mentioned in another thread, so long as theres no enforcement at the schools themselves, and so long as the back to back tourist visa still remains unchanged (and both seem pretty much the same), then any employers with a bit of a shifty edge to them are just going to move away from their employee being sent on quick exemption in-out runs, to week-off hikes to a proper consulate for a 60 day Tourist visa (or Double Entry TV). I reckon they wont even have the good grace to pay for it either. Youll be on the hook. Theyre breaking the law for you after all! Days off might be paid though. Thats nice. They were for my visa runs.

A bit of forward planning now, perhaps a week off to explore the sights and sounds of Phnom Penh and bish bosh, back you come to do the exact same job in the exact same industry with the exact same security and possible repercussions as before.

Possibly think of this term as a bit of a write off. Feelers are out and people will likely not be chancing things too much just in case suddenly the penalties for knowingly hiring an illegal alien shoot up, but come next school year (or maybe even just next term after this particularly busy August for pronouncements) everyone will have a good idea on where things actually stand and will start making the important changes.

Im not exactly confident that this whole thing is suddenly "solved". In fact it seems just a little more codified is all. But realistically things will go on much the same at the bottom of the ladder, the supply will return, wages will stay static for them without a degree. Possibly theyll go up for those with a degree, but very marginally since the general 'issues' keeping them low will pretty much remain without genuine enforcement at schools or a radical overhaul of the tourist visa.

So, the good teachers without degrees, as i suspected, will now find themselves employable (legally) as teaching assistants. The job will ABSOLUTELY be the same im sure, but they'll now clarify the role and restrictions in the coming months. So theres a way in it seems thats legal. But again, youre fighting for that 10% spot which is not exactly going to gift you job security. You might find yourself on teaching assistant/visa hopping rotation with another few farang to keep suspicions down, and quota's filled. If youre in though, i really advise you to do everything you can to upgrade your skills and get off that shit train. You're not really going to improve your options unless youre really really indispensable to the school. All it will mean is that one year in every two or three, you might have less visa annoyances.

For people with degrees i guess things got a little smoother since you dont count to that 10% due to the waiver. So long as that isnt pulled away, then obviously people might start looking to pay you a few thousand extra to not have to dick around with quotas. As i say though, so long as the supply of illegal teachers remain ballpark (and actually its much more convenient doing the back to back tourist visa runs over the 15 day exemption runs i had to do), then pay wont exactly skyrocket. If you need 3 teachers for your school, you get 1 on a waiver, and 2 either on the 10% quota or 2 rotating on the quota. You have three teachers and life goes on. So i wouldnt hold your breath

Again though, to the waivers, if Thailand is in your long term future, just jump through the hoops and become legit for heavens sake (as soon as they can offer you a test with a pass rate above zero percent, of course - always made me laugh, that one). Youll have a job for life in a country you love. And can ignore all the slimy shit going on at the bottom rung... which reminds me: The path to legitimacy is getting reviewed, and hopefully itll be less of a mess than the last one.

Win win all round then. Backpackers and transients still get to supplement their gig, just on a tourist visa. People who want a gig as a teacher get a chance to prove themselves utterly indispensable to the school and also get off the visa hop train. And waivers see their status slightly pop up (since the tourist visa thing might get clamped down on a bit in the future, and schools might get leaned on a bit to follow the guidelines making it in their interest for someone they can process easily and quickly. They also, no doubt will get a slightly more effective pathway to proper teacher legitimacy).

And of course legit teachers (either them that have QTS from back home or worked their butts off in Thailand for status). Well, you deserve a real pay grade anyways and unlike the rest of us, offer something genuinely marketable (no waivers, straight teaching staff, and of course skills, methodologies, and training). So really none of this affects you anyways... well, except of course all of the supply of NETs keeping wages down generally - then again, a NET presence in most schools means other schools feel compelled to have tehir own NET presence to keep the parents happy, simultaneously driving up demand - but probably not anywhere near enough. Cost of living! Just remember theres that in the end). Oh, but easier pathways to legitimacy is going to of course impact on your qualifications though as well... so i guess theres that as well. Basically you aint winning i think. But everyone else is. Shady schools get to still pick from the same list of options, and less shady schools still get to pick from a wide array of options staying within the law.

Edited August 11, 2014 by inutil

[thaibook]

I think there were few applicants for jobs even before the TCT changes,

but I'm in Chiang Rai where the labour pool may be smaller. When we were hiring this semester there was only one applicant per job and the school was getting anxious. Luckily those who applied were all decent teachers.

Many EFL teachers are young travelers going from place to place and need to be replaced every year or two. Many just can't hack the chaos which is understandable. To properly help Thailand learn English they could double us all up and reduce class size to below 30. That would require a few thousand teachers, which I think is necessary.

I applied for a position in Chiang Rai in an English language programme, offered to teach maths, physics, economics and could have added French. I have no teaching qualificcations but am a NES, am a practicing independent economist and did physics in a previous life. I had a Skype interview and then heard nothing despite following up with emails.

I will be coming mid September to see what I might find, preferably in BKK or Chiang Mai, possibly Chian Rai. Any suggestions or invitations for a brain storming around a beer or two would be welcome.

[duanebigsby]

I think there were few applicants for jobs even before the TCT changes,

but I'm in Chiang Rai where the labour pool may be smaller. When we were hiring this semester there was only one applicant per job and the school was getting anxious. Luckily those who applied were all decent teachers.

Many EFL teachers are young travelers going from place to place and need to be replaced every year or two. Many just can't hack the chaos which is understandable. To properly help Thailand learn English they could double us all up and reduce class size to below 30. That would require a few thousand teachers, which I think is necessary.

I applied for a position in Chiang Rai in an English language programme, offered to teach maths, physics, economics and could have added French. I have no teaching qualificcations but am a NES, am a practicing independent economist and did physics in a previous life. I had a Skype interview and then heard nothing despite following up with emails.

I will be coming mid September to see what I might find, preferably in BKK or Chiang Mai, possibly Chian Rai. Any suggestions or invitations for a brain storming around a beer or two would be welcome.

My school isn't an English language program school in that other subjects are in English. It's Thai for science, maths, etc.

At my school you'd just teach English. But if you're up this way I'd love for you to buy me a beer! lol.

[mikecat]

Yep there is definitely a shortage mainly because a lot of teachers working illigaly have had to leave due to the tightening of the visa regime and also the Teachers Council have stopped giving wavers to a lot of teachers for a range of reasons.

For many people wanting to teach here legally it has just about become impossible and highly unlikely that you could work without a permit for very long anymore.

[duanebigsby]

Yep there is definitely a shortage mainly because a lot of teachers working illigaly have had to leave due to the tightening of the visa regime and also the Teachers Council have stopped giving wavers to a lot of teachers for a range of reasons.

For many people wanting to teach here legally it has just about become impossible and highly unlikely that you could work without a permit for very long anymore.

My school had problems finding teachers long before the changes.

I think your post is scare mongering, but we'll have to see the changes.

[Bigfarang1948]

After following these questions about teaching, it seems there are plenty of jobs available in Thailand but some shady employers are not going to give you a work permit. I think that has been the cause of so may visa runs for teachers and others and now with the back to back border runs for visa extensions being clamped down on, logical thinking makes me believe there are many teaching jobs open here in LOS,, Poor pay is a detractor but of you love your work and love Thailand, good luck on getting the job, By the way, mine is only one of many opinions you will get and nobody in this forum will be able to sort this out for you.

Why not teach in Japan where you will be paid very well for going mad? The problems for teachers here are similar to the ones in Thailand but the pay makes it worth going on until you save enough money to retire in Thailand. FYI, in 1997, I conducted an in-service class for a roomful of JET teachers who were going nuts trying to motivate their students to want to really learn English. The answer, of course, is that teaching ESL, teaching EFL to students who plan to study in America, Britain, Australia or New Zealand and teaching EFL to students who have no need to use English in their home country are completely different endeavors. Not differentiating between these three groups will leave you feeling frustrated, worthless and burned out. You must fit your goals and methods appropriately.

Okay, but I am confused about the difference between EFL (English as a Foreign Language?) and ESL (English as a Second Language). Good point, thanks for bringing it up.

And to the OP I guess there is no way to answer for sure, but the stagnant wages make me think there is a consistent supply. Just a bit unsure as I keep seeing people talking about the huge demand for NES FT's.

[Thighlander]

I was offered 230 per hour to teach SAT Math in Chiang Mai......bite me!

[quandow]

I work for the largest private school system in Southeast Asia. My recruiter is constantly trying to find decent teachers. He has had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for the last two years, and some of the people on staff have hardly room temperature IQ's. Our local school in Chonburi has lost two teachers since the military coup and its stance on visas, and it looks like we will be losing more soon. He placed an ad on Ajarn, where he is usually overwhelmed with responses. He got two inquiries, neither of which even qualify as "bottom of the barrel." Too many NES? We WISH!

[Johnnie99]

The point is well made that there are many wishing to be teachers, many who are teachers and far too few who are good teachers.

[casualbiker]

The point is well made that there are many wishing to be teachers, many who are teachers and far too few who are good teachers.

Both Thai a foreign!

[Scott]

Yes, finding teachers is difficult and finding anybody with a pulse is a plus. Right now, I have teachers that I know full well will be short term since they will get caught in either the visa crackdown or in the TCT regulations.

Even among the Filipinos, I used to be able to hire teachers with a degree in Education and usually experience. Now, it's been a degree, but not related to education. Some have very good English, but teaching skills are largely lacking.

The situation is not particularly good at this point in time.

[DogNo1]

The acronyms ESL and EFL might sound similar but the teaching realities are quite different. ESL students are non-native speakers of English who are living in an English-speaking country and need the ability to function in English to survive. EFL students are non-native speakers of English most of whom are native speakers of the language of the country that they are in. Most will not need to speak English in their daily lives and will be taking English as a required foreign language course. A small subset of EFL students will need to study English for professional or business purposes. They and ESL students will be highly motivated to take the study of English seriously. Most EFL students who take English as a required subject will not be highly motivated. The teaching implications should be clear. You can't expect one group to work as hard or learn as much as the other. If you have the wrong expectations for the wrong group you are doomed to constant frustration. In Japan, for example, if you fail students in the group which is not well-motivated, they will just have to repeat the class, in some instances for several times. Students can not flunk out of college so the repeaters can become a serious financial burden on the school. We have learned to pass all students who meet attendance standards and make a reasonable effort to learn. To do otherwise causes problems for the students, the teachers and the schools.

[DogNo1]

It may surprise some people to hear that in Japanese high schools, NES are hired only as assistant teachers and work under the direction of a Japanese English teacher. In the universities, NES professors are outnumbered by Japanese professors by about 3:1 in English departments. Many Japanese university students are said to be allergic to English and do not want to study English at all, especially not with a NES professor. It may be that the problems associated with English teaching are worse in Japan then they are in Thailand.

I must say though that in my more than thirty years' experience teaching in the USA, Thailand and Japan, I have never known a time when education wasn't in crisis. Especially in the USA, education has been in a perpetual state of crisis for as long as I can remember. Perhaps we could take a cue from Germany and develop a robust vocational option that streams the appropriate students into internships with various employers. Of course, there is a strong counter argument to that idea but this post is already much too long.?

[Thighlander]

I wonder why Mercedes is building their new plant in Mexico.

[casualbiker]

I wonder why Mercedes is building their new plant in Mexico.

Because it's cheaper than the USA and they can take advantage of south American free trade agreements!

[theguyfromanotherforum]

The point is well made that there are many wishing to be teachers, many who are teachers and far too few who are good teachers.

Please pat yourself on the back cuz you are the best!

[casualbiker]

I wonder why Mercedes is building their new plant in Mexico.

Because it's cheaper than the USA and they can take advantage of south American free trade agreements!

"south American"? and the Euro-trash says Americans are bad with geography?

http://www.sice.oas.org/ctyindex/MEX/MEXAgreements_e.asp

Mexico is a damn sight closer than Germany. No!

Didn't say Mexico was IN South America. Did I?

[Thighlander]

then what exactly did you mean by "south American"? And if the Germans are so efficient and have these wonderful vocational programs for their youth; why not build it in Germany? And, of course, the Germans are the smartest people on Earth; just ask them.

[casualbiker]

then what exactly did you mean by "south American"? And if the Germans are so efficient and have these wonderful vocational programs for their youth; why not build it in Germany? And, of course, the Germans are the smartest people on Earth; just ask them.

Your reading capabilities must be impaired!