Brake upgrade on Fortuner.

[transam]

You cannot improve braking by just changing the rear without improving the front unless you fit an adjustable bias valve. With modern abs and vsc l cannot see how it can be done. I have done it on non abs etc stuff. The telling point is when you slam the anchors on in the wet and find your backend is trying to overtake you if homework has not been done.

I only put my post in once I had tried it in all conditions, my 1,000+km fully laden return run was in dry and also very wet, temp in the tyres between 30c and 44c and I can assure you I did at times give it a very large right brake foot if only to see how it would react. And every time it seem to good to be true.

Regards your earlier post about shoe wear only once have I ever had to change the shoes that was on a Ford Anglia and that had drums all round well before your time no doubt when they used to use copper rivets to secure them.

The ones on my Tuna were buggered the leading edge on all the shoes were no more than a 1/16" thick a couple of months and it would have been metal on metal.

What Toyota line them with I don't know but it must be very soft maybe they do it for better grip/ only a guess on that.

Past my test in a Ford Anglia 105E .

I do remember shoes with rivets cos I did the reline myself . Gosh, those were the days. But then an exchange system came in to make life easy.....

[fredob43]

You cannot improve braking by just changing the rear without improving the front unless you fit an adjustable bias valve. With modern abs and vsc l cannot see how it can be done. I have done it on non abs etc stuff. The telling point is when you slam the anchors on in the wet and find your backend is trying to overtake you if homework has not been done.

I only put my post in once I had tried it in all conditions, my 1,000+km fully laden return run was in dry and also very wet, temp in the tyres between 30c and 44c and I can assure you I did at times give it a very large right brake foot if only to see how it would react. And every time it seem to good to be true.

Regards your earlier post about shoe wear only once have I ever had to change the shoes that was on a Ford Anglia and that had drums all round well before your time no doubt when they used to use copper rivets to secure them.

The ones on my Tuna were buggered the leading edge on all the shoes were no more than a 1/16" thick a couple of months and it would have been metal on metal.

What Toyota line them with I don't know but it must be very soft maybe they do it for better grip/ only a guess on that.

Past my test in a Ford Anglia 105E .

I do remember shoes with rivets cos I did the reline myself . Gosh, those were the days. But then an exchange system came in to make life easy.....

I never relined them myself I just took the shoes down the local garage and they did it for me but I did put everything together though one of the first thing's I ever did car wise.

Things change big time once I got my 2+2 Lotus then you had to do everything yourself or you would have run out of cash rapid. Bloody thing never went more than a week before something went tit's up usually electric.

[transam]

You cannot improve braking by just changing the rear without improving the front unless you fit an adjustable bias valve. With modern abs and vsc l cannot see how it can be done. I have done it on non abs etc stuff. The telling point is when you slam the anchors on in the wet and find your backend is trying to overtake you if homework has not been done.

I only put my post in once I had tried it in all conditions, my 1,000+km fully laden return run was in dry and also very wet, temp in the tyres between 30c and 44c and I can assure you I did at times give it a very large right brake foot if only to see how it would react. And every time it seem to good to be true.

Regards your earlier post about shoe wear only once have I ever had to change the shoes that was on a Ford Anglia and that had drums all round well before your time no doubt when they used to use copper rivets to secure them.

The ones on my Tuna were buggered the leading edge on all the shoes were no more than a 1/16" thick a couple of months and it would have been metal on metal.

What Toyota line them with I don't know but it must be very soft maybe they do it for better grip/ only a guess on that.

Past my test in a Ford Anglia 105E .

I do remember shoes with rivets cos I did the reline myself . Gosh, those were the days. But then an exchange system came in to make life easy.....

I never relined them myself I just took the shoes down the local garage and they did it for me but I did put everything together though one of the first thing's I ever did car wise.

Things change big time once I got my 2+2 Lotus then you had to do everything yourself or you would have run out of cash rapid. Bloody thing never went more than a week before something went tit's up usually electric.

But they were the days when we could tinker and fix stuff, unlike today where we can't touch anything without a computer involved.......

But, thinking back, replacing points and condenser with a new fangled electronic thingy was a godsend.......

[fredob43]

Just a quick one on changing the points on a Lotus the distributor was mounted under the two twin choke Webber carbs and you couldn't see in it to do anything, so it was quicker to take the thing out and put everything in new then replace simple if you can see what your doing but you cant besides that you had to put the distributor in at 180% before TDS on no: 1 when you rotated the engine it would correct itself simple when you know how. After several tries a few times a week the easier it got.

The engine out to change the water pump I got that down to a fine art and could do a bonnet off rad off lump out hanging in around 50 minutes. That's lump gearbox and prop all in one go. It was a case of let it hang and push the car back off it just lifting the end of the prop at the last minute.

Modern stuff I go in the garage simple as that. I don't now do grease or dirt.

Regarding everything that you TA and others been put in about brake valves setting etc I have read all that peeps have put in and much more besides and I've no doubt you all are 100% correct.

On paper the rear set up wont work well.

But glad to say it does, why where who knows but it does, well on my Sportivo that has large factory wheels and it seems a MU7 also with bigger wheel and in all weather conditions. It's a pity that you live a million mile from me other wise you could have had a go to see for yourself.

It's a very long story that I wont go into but on my way back from BKK I had occasion to use it big time brake wise twice and it performed excellently that was at well over 140kph stopping in a strait line with no ABS kicking in. I'm as pleased a punch.

Saying that I'm still getting use to how much pressure to put on the peddle a little to much today and nearly had a car hit me up the a#se. No one said life would be easy.

Edited August 17, 2014 by fredob43

[fredob43]

Just a quick one on changing the points on a Lotus the distributor was mounted under the two twin choke Webber carbs and you couldn't see in it to do anything, so it was quicker to take the thing out and put everything in new then replace simple if you can see what your doing but you cant besides that you had to put the distributor in at 180% before TDS on no: 1 when you rotated the engine it would correct itself simple when you know how. After several tries a few times a week the easier it got.

The engine out to change the water pump I got that down to a fine art and could do a bonnet off rad off lump out hanging in around 50 minutes. That's lump gearbox and prop all in one go. It was a case of let it hang and push the car back off it just lifting the end of the prop at the last minute.

Modern stuff I go in the garage simple as that. I don't now do grease or dirt.

Regarding everything that you TA and others been put in about brake valves setting etc I have read all that peeps have put in and much more besides and I've no doubt you all are 100% correct.

On paper the rear set up wont work well.

But glad to say it does, why where who knows but it does, well on my Sportivo that has large factory wheels and it seems a MU7 also with bigger wheel and in all weather conditions. It's a pity that you live a million mile from me other wise you could have had a go to see for yourself.

It's a very long story that I wont go into but on my way back from BKK I had occasion to use it big time brake wise twice and it performed excellently that was at well over 140kph stopping in a strait line with no ABS kicking in. I'm as pleased a punch.

Saying that I'm still getting use to how much pressure to put on the peddle a little to much today and nearly had a car hit me up the a#se. No one said life would be easy.

Bugger me you read quick. I've only just posted it.

[bazmlb]

fitting bigger discs is a waste as it only addresses part of the issue, also expensive and no real result achieved, fitting EBC yellowstuff pads imrpoves the braking significantly and at a much less cost

[transam]

fitting bigger discs is a waste as it only addresses part of the issue, also expensive and no real result achieved, fitting EBC yellowstuff pads imrpoves the braking significantly and at a much less cost

Think I fitted those, or green to Wilwood stuff on my fun ride.

[Spoonman]

fitting bigger discs is a waste as it only addresses part of the issue, also expensive and no real result achieved, fitting EBC yellowstuff pads imrpoves the braking significantly and at a much less cost

A pad upgrade did zero for my colorado.

[bazmlb]

fitting bigger discs is a waste as it only addresses part of the issue, also expensive and no real result achieved, fitting EBC yellowstuff pads imrpoves the braking significantly and at a much less cost

A pad upgrade did zero for my colorado.

What pads were they?

Everyone that I know who has fitted EBC to both bikes and Cars/Suv/Trucks has had improved braking

[Spoonman]

fitting bigger discs is a waste as it only addresses part of the issue, also expensive and no real result achieved, fitting EBC yellowstuff pads imrpoves the braking significantly and at a much less cost

A pad upgrade did zero for my colorado.

What pads were they?

Everyone that I know who has fitted EBC to both bikes and Cars/Suv/Trucks has had improved braking

I don't remember, some sort of "performace" pad. not EBC.

They worked great with the disc upgrade though.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Spoonman

[bazmlb]

They worked great with the disc upgrade though.

What type of disc upgrade,

1: slotted, crossdrilled, high carbon discs?

2: or just larger diameter

Just putting larger diameter discs can reduce braking as you are decreasing the pressure or bite the pad has on the disc, to do things properly you need to increase pressure on the pad, which requires caliper/master cylinder changes to achieve this, then the disc/pad combo may need to be improved to cater for extra heat generated.

EBC Brake pad temp maximums

Pad/rotor suggestions

[Spoonman]

How does the pressure or bite the pad has on the disc decrease ?. The caliper will still exert the same hydraulic force as it did with the OEM disc, Ideally for a disc upgrade a caliper with more pistons should also be considered though.

Do you have an affiliation with EBC because you sure do like to promote their product.

[transam]

How does the pressure or bite the pad has on the disc decrease ?. The caliper will still exert the same hydraulic force as it did with the OEM disc, Ideally for a disc upgrade a caliper with more pistons should also be considered though.

Do you have an affiliation with EBC because you sure do like to promote their product.

Some of us who have fooled around with stuff came to a conclusion, EBC have done their homework and provided a product that does the job where others have failed. Take it onboard from those who have spent the cash, failed, then found an answer that they/we are passing on.

PS. You can ignore our stuff if you like.....

[thailoht]

^^^ Funny, since this is what the OP and myself, who happen to only be satisfied end users of Run-Stop's rear disk brake conversion kit and larger front rotor upgrade products, have been pointing out in this thread. I am quite sure that the Run-Stop techs and research have competently 'done their homework' in the products they mfg. in order to have survived in business for so long.

So maybe it would be more productive for those who have technical doubts or reservations about system installation or upgrade practicality to address their questions and points to the brake techs at Run-Stop or (EBC brakes) who are 'professional' and are more 'thoroughly' knowledgeable about these systems and can surely satisfy everyone with technical answers. The answers can then be posted here for all of our consumption.

[Spoonman]

How does the pressure or bite the pad has on the disc decrease ?. The caliper will still exert the same hydraulic force as it did with the OEM disc, Ideally for a disc upgrade a caliper with more pistons should also be considered though.

Do you have an affiliation with EBC because you sure do like to promote their product.

Some of us who have fooled around with stuff came to a conclusion, EBC have done their homework and provided a product that does the job where others have failed. Take it onboard from those who have spent the cash, failed, then found an answer that they/we are passing on.

PS. You can ignore our stuff if you like.....

Yeah, my Runstop upgrade worked very well, Thanks.

By the way, I never said anything bad about EBC products and I 100% agree for entry to mid level stuff they do perform very well.

Do you feel like passing comment on why bazmlb would claim the simple act of changing the diametre of a disc rotor would decrease pad clamping pressure ?

Edited August 18, 2014 by Spoonman

[transam]

How does the pressure or bite the pad has on the disc decrease ?. The caliper will still exert the same hydraulic force as it did with the OEM disc, Ideally for a disc upgrade a caliper with more pistons should also be considered though.

Do you have an affiliation with EBC because you sure do like to promote their product.

Some of us who have fooled around with stuff came to a conclusion, EBC have done their homework and provided a product that does the job where others have failed. Take it onboard from those who have spent the cash, failed, then found an answer that they/we are passing on.

PS. You can ignore our stuff if you like.....

Yeah, my Runstop upgrade worked very well, Thanks.

By the way, I never said anything bad about EBC products and I 100% agree for entry to mid level stuff they do perform very well.

Do you feel like passing comment on why bazmlb would claim the simple act of changing the diametre of a disc rotor would decrease pad clamping pressure ?

Weeeeeeeeell, my old theory, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Soooooooooooo, did have to think about it. A bigger disc diameter will need more clamping pressure cos the disc is providing more energy to be absorbed cos it has a bigger turning circumference to clamp/grip.

Gosh, I do have trouble at times putting in writing what I am trying to explain.

[bazmlb]

Yeah, my Runstop upgrade worked very well, Thanks.

By the way, I never said anything bad about EBC products and I 100% agree for entry to mid level stuff they do perform very well.

Do you feel like passing comment on why bazmlb would claim the simple act of changing the diametre of a disc rotor would decrease pad clamping pressure ?

I have seen a lot of race cars around Bira in different series and EBC is the choice for most, so saying they only perform to mid level isnt right

without having a clear spec of what you are classifying as a brake upgrade actually is i can say the following.

1: Putting a thicker disc or ventialed in place of solid will only improve cooling of the disc if its over heating.

2: if its a larger diameter disc and the caliper is moved outwards then there is more force the caliper has to stop.

3: if its a larger diameter disc with larger surface area pad, without changing the master cylinder then there the same pressure is used over a larger suface area and less at any one point

[Spoonman]

Thank you for the better detailed response, That makes a lot of sense when laid out like that. Maybe I was just lucky with the upgrade I performed but it was a massive improvement over OEM?

How many Class 1 supercars run EBC at Bira ?

[Woodsie888]

fitting bigger discs is a waste as it only addresses part of the issue, also expensive and no real result achieved, fitting EBC yellowstuff pads imrpoves the braking significantly and at a much less cost

A pad upgrade did zero for my colorado.

With disc's the size of a saucer, pad upgrades will do very little, as you know Spoony.

I did a brake conversion on a Fortuner more than 5 years ago, and it worked a treat.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Woodsie888

[Woodsie888]

How does the pressure or bite the pad has on the disc decrease ?. The caliper will still exert the same hydraulic force as it did with the OEM disc, Ideally for a disc upgrade a caliper with more pistons should also be considered though.

Do you have an affiliation with EBC because you sure do like to promote their product.

I agree Spoony, pad pressure can't decrease, but leverage from an increased diameter disc does increase braking performance at very little cost. Runstop do these conversions and they work very well.

[Ace of Pop]

If you watch American Car progs on You Tube,its surprising how few only upgrade the Fronts and leave the rear drums when it easy to slap on rear disks when fully broken down. Why is That...?.

[transam]

My ol' Trans had stock brakes, 10 inch drums rear and single pot calipers front , as the race trans had no engine braking it was a bit scary at times . So fitted an all alloy set up with 4 pots on the front, came with same size discs and fitted an adjustable bias valve.

They were still useless . Sooooo, did some measuring to see if I could squeeze in bigger discs. A brake shop had some, l think were half inch bigger but had to machine up new bells to take them. This half inch made a huge difference after getting the bias right.....

[Ace of Pop]

A 525 H.P. Hemi, dont need em but a Spivo does, Hmmmmm.

[transam]

A 525 H.P. Hemi, dont need em but a Spivo does, Hmmmmm.

Think my ol' Trans was a perfect candidate for rear discs cos the wheel/tyres on the rear were about 3 inches bigger diameter than the front, but the cost was humongous.......

[Ace of Pop]

My Competitive Driving was 10 Years of 400- 500 Bhp Ford n Evoes on Stage Forest stuff.Never new mutch about brakes,it was like juggling everything at once,and as long as the Handbrake was soft enough to flick the arse out was all i cared. Sometimes Boiling the Fluid, even Comp stuff in the mountains but nothing worth a sweat.Memories.All thats left.

[Spoonman]

My Competitive Driving was 10 Years of 400- 500 Bhp Ford n Evoes on Stage Forest stuff.Never new mutch about brakes,it was like juggling everything at once,and as long as the Handbrake was soft enough to flick the arse out was all i cared. Sometimes Boiling the Fluid, even Comp stuff in the mountains but nothing worth a sweat.Memories.All thats left.

Rally driving is fun, self funded or sponsored ?

[Ace of Pop]

Both.

[Spoonman]

What sorta Ford ?

[Ace of Pop]

Mk i Broadspeed Escorts, Mk 2 Escorts Cosworth BDA to Sierra 500 4x4 Turbo Cosworths. Mitsus were Ex Works damaged re builds by Companies i owned back then.

[Spoonman]

A friend of mine here in Pattaya has an almost identical rally history...............................