Working Online

[Delphis]

I really think we need a 'hornets nest' icon. Dozens of queries in the Finance section re how to day trade etc but this is a subject that consistently brings out the self-proclaimed protectors of Thailand's Taxation and Labor departments. The only tip I can give anyone contemplating this is to tell no-one - not the people who share your bed and definitely not the readership of this board - it will only end in tears. If anyone has the audacity to ask you how you survive in Thailand, tell them you get a pension each month - that's it. Not a single cost-of-living or who-earns-what thread on this board has ever gone well IME, but to suggest that some folk might be doing it from the comfort of a laptop in a coffee shop or wherever really brings the angry ants out of the woodwork.

I appreciate your comment, MrWorldwide. It's fascinating is it not? People supposedly would be attracted to moving to Thailand for reasons for open-hearted spirit.

I did in fact suspect that what you describe is what most people in the situation are doing. it's a moot point whether to "keep quiet about it" or whether to raise awareness that it should be clarified in law. If it were clarified positively in law, this problem would disappear.

[GarryP]

Throw theory out of the window, and consider it practically. If you work on line, keep your mouth shut about what you are doing, then no one is the wiser. Your likelihood of being caught for working without a work permit is negligible. Yes, there is a risk but it is a caclulated risk. Is it worth your while, remembering that if you did do so you would be breaking the law?

[larsjohnsson]

It's not illegal to earn money when residing in Thailand. For certain classes of non-working visa's, having an income is required by law.

But his headline say working online.

[Delphis]

Based on some of the posts i have read here I would guess that if you make any calls or even think about making money you are breaking the law. Not that it could not happen but I have never heard of anyone getting busted for working online in their own apartment or condo. I have also never heard of anyone getting busted for owning a few rentals and collecting or receiving rent each month. Nor have I heard of anyone ever getting busted for making a few overseas calls to advise their overseas companies or investments how to proceed.

This is all a gray area. If you are however taking a job away from a Thai then you are breaking the law but if you are only looking after your investments then I think you should be fine. ???

How many people come here and sit on a beach and write a book or even think about what to write about while on holiday .... Are they breaking the law ? I don't think so ....

Thanks for a reasoned reply.

The whole point of countries having a law against temporary aliens working without certain narrowly defined restrictions is so that work is not taken away from nationals or so that said aliens don't participate in the economic value of the nation's resources to their own benefit. But an expat working online, assuming here that the economic activity does not pass through the Thai system, is not depriving a Thai person of anything at all. Quite the opposite: she or he is bringing money into the country. I'm not saying that makes it *legal." But some of the defenders I have seen in other threads don't seem to grasp this point. in the coconut example I gave, which isn't even an online instance, no economic activity passes through the Thai system at all. Yes, there's an XYZ kg individual sitting in a chair somewhere in Thailand staring at a computer screen, but that's it. In all other (common sense) ways this "work" should have nothing to do with anyone other than the government of the countr(ies) where it is legitimately taxed.

[hughben]

I am interested to know when the laws of a work permit and hiring 4 Thai nationals was introduced?

It sounds like well before the internet and before online 'one man bands'.

They would generate more from taxes if they updated their laws and took into account internet and e-commerce.

These people could go legit and pay taxes.

[draftvader]

There is a reason why you can't get clarity. The answer that people hear and the answer they want to hear are 2 different things on this subject as it is actually a very simple answer. To work in Thailand requires a Work Permit. To get a Work Permit you need to have an employer or be one. It is THAT simple.

So if you are employed then you won't be working online as you would be breaking the terms of your Work Permit which your visa is dependent on. If you are employing then you are busy enough not to be answering this question and have filled in the correct paperwork and paid the correct fees (except for BOT exempt business types).

As to the masses you talk about not coming in to reassure you that everything is alright? That would be because they know they are sitting in a legal "grey" area but don't want to expose themselves to the wrong people as "grey" to those people would mean illegal and deportation. They like to remain subtle and under the radar. If you've met one talking openly about this then they are quite stupid and probably won't keep it up for too long.

[Delphis]

Throw theory out of the window, and consider it practically. If you work on line, keep your mouth shut about what you are doing, then no one is the wiser. Your likelihood of being caught for working without a work permit is negligible. Yes, there is a risk but it is a caclulated risk. Is it worth your while, remembering that if you did do so you would be breaking the law?

Obviously I can't say that is what I would do if I were to move to Thailand. People who want to do this aren't criminals. They shouldn't have to hide in the dark. That's all I'm really saying.

[JLCrab]

I really think we need a 'hornets nest' icon. Dozens of queries in the Finance section re how to day trade etc but this is a subject that consistently brings out the self-proclaimed protectors of Thailand's Taxation and Labor departments. The only tip I can give anyone contemplating this is to tell no-one - not the people who share your bed and definitely not the readership of this board - it will only end in tears. If anyone has the audacity to ask you how you survive in Thailand, tell them you get a pension each month - that's it. Not a single cost-of-living or who-earns-what thread on this board has ever gone well IME, but to suggest that some folk might be doing it from the comfort of a laptop in a coffee shop or wherever really brings the angry ants out of the woodwork.

I appreciate your comment, MrWorldwide. It's fascinating is it not? People supposedly would be attracted to moving to Thailand for reasons for open-hearted spirit.

I did in fact suspect that what you describe is what most people in the situation are doing. it's a moot point whether to "keep quiet about it" or whether to raise awareness that it should be clarified in law. If it were clarified positively in law, this problem would disappear.

One simple explanation as to why it is not already clarified by law is that the Thai officialdom does not want it clarified by law and that you over-estimate the contribution potential or otherwise of the persons whose means of livelihood you believe needs to be clarified.

[Delphis]

There is a reason why you can't get clarity. The answer that people hear and the answer they want to hear are 2 different things on this subject as it is actually a very simple answer. To work in Thailand requires a Work Permit. To get a Work Permit you need to have an employer or be one. It is THAT simple.

So if you are employed then you won't be working online as you would be breaking the terms of your Work Permit which your visa is dependent on. If you are employing then you are busy enough not to be answering this question and have filled in the correct paperwork and paid the correct fees (except for BOT exempt business types).

As to the masses you talk about not coming in to reassure you that everything is alright? That would be because they know they are sitting in a legal "grey" area but don't want to expose themselves to the wrong people as "grey" to those people would mean illegal and deportation. They like to remain subtle and under the radar. If you've met one talking openly about this then they are quite stupid and probably won't keep it up for too long.

Again, thanks for the input. I understand this. In other words, in terms of the law it is "that simple." My original question, of course, was what people actually do, on the ground. That to some extent is answered. What "should" one do...is where the answers clearly bifurcate down two paths.

[Delphis]

One simple explanation as to why it is not already clarified by law is that the Thai officialdom does not want it clarified by law and that you over-estimate the contribution potential or otherwise of the persons whose means of livelihood you believe needs to be clarified.

Possibly. But one doesn't need to be earning millions to make a contribution. Really, one doesn't need to be doing much more than the average tourist does. While very few people are making a *lot* of money from online activity, a fair amount are making a *reasonably* healthy living. I see no reason why that should not be considered a contribution. I understand that it may not be large in terms of the overall economic picture, but I would imagine that many expats *in reality* are doing it, and this adds up, just as the small spendings of a great many tourists....adds up.

[Jasun]

It's not illegal to earn money when residing in Thailand. For certain classes of non-working visa's, having an income is required by law.

But his headline say working online.

I'm referring to earning an income from an investment or online business model that was established outside of Thailand, and doesn't require you to keep working while living here. Keeping in mind the current rules were written before the internet was around. For all I know moving money around using internet banking could be considered working.

[ttthailand]

I think you got the idea. I would stop here and proceed with caution. As others have said... don't discuss what you do with anyone, it's not their business. Some people on TV have nothing better to do then cause trouble so be careful what you say and do even on this forum.

[Delphis]

I'm referring to earning an income from an investment or online business model that was established outside of Thailand, and doesn't require you to keep working while living here. Keeping in mind the current rules were written before the internet was around. For all I know moving money around using internet banking could be considered working.

I agree Jasun. I think this is why it is out of date. Imagine being deported for checking your bank account in another country, or for moving money from one account to another. I mean, does anyone *really* take the view that isn't ridiculous?

[Delphis]

I think you got the idea. I would stop here and proceed with caution. As others have said... don't discuss what you do with anyone, it's not their business. Some people on TV have nothing better to do then cause trouble so be careful what you say and do even on this forum.

Yup.

If I do move there, it's not likely to be anytime soon though. So I'm not unduly worried.

[Franky Bear]

You will earn $30968549834 a month when you work online from thailand, acording to those that do, from a small bedsit with no AC on soi Bukhow

[JLCrab]

One simple explanation as to why it is not already clarified by law is that the Thai officialdom does not want it clarified by law and that you over-estimate the contribution potential or otherwise of the persons whose means of livelihood you believe needs to be clarified.

Possibly. But one doesn't need to be earning millions to make a contribution. Really, one doesn't need to be doing much more than the average tourist does. While very few people are making a *lot* of money from online activity, a fair amount are making a *reasonably* healthy living. I see no reason why that should not be considered a contribution. I understand that it may not be large in terms of the overall economic picture, but I would imagine that many expats *in reality* are doing it, and this adds up, just as the small spendings of a great many tourists....adds up.

If you want to keep thinking that there has been some kind of oversight on the part of Thai officialdom, that they are out of date and just don't realize the collective contribution of persons who you describe, you can go ahead and believe it. I don't.

[simon43]

But when someone kicks off with rudeness..

Where was that then? I rechecked my post and I was neither rude, insulting, demeaning etc etc to you. I simply stated that this topic had been discussed a thousand times already.

I know it is not a big deal, but why did you open a new thread when you could have asked in the threads already running? Now those interested in following this topic have to 'monitor' yet another thread

[tookwan cottage]

To me, this whole area seems to raise another issue. My understanding of the real word practicalities of the situation are something like this:

1) There are many people earning money online in Thailand, but "under the radar" etc.

2) To be fully legitimate would need Thai company formed.

Fair enough.

But it seems to me this is a grey area legally. Countries can of course do what they like in terms of laws, but...

It seems to me iffy that a country can have, or set itself up as having, a legal right to control economic activity that in fact does not take place on their economic territory at all, except as tapped at an ATM. That in *itself* seems to me borderline illegal...or at the very least, as I put it, "grey area."

its not a grey area at all. you came in here asking a question. you got your answer and now you want to argue about it! tell you what, email a thai embassy in your home country and ask them.

Interestingly, I need to support AYJAYDEE's view here. This is the query of someone who needs to use common sense and make the effort to engage in research. Merely asking the question here is an easy way out. Save the bandwidth, as this is a pointless thread.

[Delphis]

But when someone kicks off with rudeness..

Where was that then? I rechecked my post and I was neither rude, insulting, demeaning etc etc to you. I simply stated that this topic had been discussed a thousand times already.

I know it is not a big deal, but why did you open a new thread when you could have asked in the threads already running? Now those interested in following this topic have to 'monitor' yet another thread

Well, you did start off on the foot of "let's close this thread" which is pretty rude to someone just arriving at the board, at least after several years absence. And then you said "OP should do a simple google search" thereby assuming that I hadn't already done one.

I mean, if we take that to extreme, surely almost all discussions that take place here could be said to have "taken place before." With the exception of new laws coming into existence etc, is there *really* anything of general interest that hasn't been asked before? I doubt it. So why not just close the entire place and make it an archive? Perhaps because conversation still has its human side

[tookwan cottage]

I think you got the idea. I would stop here and proceed with caution. As others have said... don't discuss what you do with anyone, it's not their business. Some people on TV have nothing better to do then cause trouble so be careful what you say and do even on this forum.

Yup.

If I do move there, it's not likely to be anytime soon though. So I'm not unduly worried.

Are you lonely or in need of human contact? Maybe join a social club, as many, including myself, cannot see what you are trying to achieve with this thread.

[Delphis]

Okay I'm done. I sincerely thank those who gave considered replies on the thread.

To the admin I say, I will likely not be back. I find the general attitude here by many posters trollish and hectoring, akin to schoolyard bullies. It does NOT seem like a friendly environment for people seeking advice on moving to Thailand, which is why I posted here. By all means please monitor the thread and see for yourself. Do with this information as you wish. Adios!

[AYJAYDEE]

Okay I'm done. I sincerely thank those who gave considered replies on the thread.

To the admin I say, I will likely not be back. I find the general attitude here by many posters trollish and hectoring, akin to schoolyard bullies. It does NOT seem like a friendly environment for people seeking advice on moving to Thailand, which is why I posted here. By all means please monitor the thread and see for yourself. Do with this information as you wish. Adios!

seeking advice? or using it as an opportunity to lecture us on the shortsightedness of thai officialdom!

[tookwan cottage]

This is not a court of law—you do not need to inform the forum when you are done or leaving, as no-one actually cares. Just go and live your life, while also using your common sense, for chrissakes ...

[IMA_FARANG]

If the question is really can you provide a customer with GOODS or SERVICES from a location in Thailand legally without a Work Permit the answer is no.

It doesn't matter how you do it you can not legally supply goods (including E-Books) or services (including advice on medica advicel, financial advice or "advice to the lovelorn").

Not LEGALLY from Thailand, even if you receive no compensation, financial or otherwise.

Even if such financial compensation is deposited in a bank outside of Thailand, it still is illegal without a Work Permit to provide those goods or services from a location inside of Thailand without a Work Permit to do that.

But we all know it is possible to do so not legally.

So, basically the answer to your questions are ..... no, not legally.

Yes, I know that's silly, but since when did laws have to make sense ?

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

You will earn $30968549834 a month when you work online from thailand, acording to those that do, from a small bedsit with no AC on soi Bukhow

And that's a 30 day month...........................

[Franky Bear]

Okay I'm done. I sincerely thank those who gave considered replies on the thread.

To the admin I say, I will likely not be back. I find the general attitude here by many posters trollish and hectoring, akin to schoolyard bullies. It does NOT seem like a friendly environment for people seeking advice on moving to Thailand, which is why I posted here. By all means please monitor the thread and see for yourself. Do with this information as you wish. Adios!

Take care, it's a jungle out there

[ColdSingha]

If the question is really can you provide a customer with GOODS or SERVICES from a location in Thailand legally without a Work Permit the answer is no.

It doesn't matter how you do it you can not legally supply goods (including E-Books) or services (including advice on medica advicel, financial advice or "advice to the lovelorn").

Not LEGALLY from Thailand, even if you receive no compensation, financial or otherwise.

Even if such financial compensation is deposited in a bank outside of Thailand, it still is illegal without a Work Permit to provide those goods or services from a location inside of Thailand without a Work Permit to do that.

But we all know it is possible to do so not legally.

So, basically the answer to your questions are ..... no, not legally.

Yes, I know that's silly, but since when did laws have to make sense ?

leave thailand, incorporate offshore company (having company sell goods outside thailand), come back to thailand, kick back at beach

legal?

[chrisinth]

Repeat, repeat, repeat.

I understand the OP's questions.

I understand the views of those that take the law literally and that a WP is required for any work.

I understand the views from posters who say do it anyway, just keep your mouths shut.

What I don't understand, is the inability of these so called geniuses to take the compilation of views away from the forum, evaluate the data and do something about it.

As an aside, has nobody thought to approach a Thai online company and work with them to come up with a solution? Create job descriptions to help the company and be able to legally stay in Thailand?

Still, better just to debate the issue, beat it a little bit further to death, same questions, same answers.

Incredible.......................

One would think people weren't interested in work and only want a long term stay option. That would be how I read it.

[HooHaa]

i have known freelance journalists with and authour's with work permits, i must remember to ask them how those were arranged.

[HooHaa]

Repeat, repeat, repeat.

I understand the OP's questions.

I understand the views of those that take the law literally and that a WP is required for any work.

I understand the views from posters who say do it anyway, just keep your mouths shut.

What I don't understand, is the inability of these so called geniuses to take the compilation of views away from the forum, evaluate the data and do something about it.

As an aside, has nobody thought to approach a Thai online company and work with them to come up with a solution? Create job descriptions to help the company and be able to legally stay in Thailand?

Still, better just to debate the issue, beat it a little bit further to death, same questions, same answers.

Incredible.......................

One would think people weren't interested in work and only want a long term stay option. That would be how I read it.

one might also think that people already had work and were looking for a way to do it from here online.