Norwegian Chiropractor arrested by Pattaya Immigration Police

[balo]

I feel sorry for my fellow countryman , I know he did a good job in Pattaya and he helped a lot of people here with back injuries. But none of us knew he was on a student visa .

I was sure he had a WP when he opened his own clinic.

And there's many foreign chiropractors working in Thailand , operating legally for many years , especially in Bangkok .

Really bad news this, I wish him all the best for the future .

[Timwin]

These law book moralists here really are unbelievable. They probably would have shouted to Rosa Parks, "Move your ass, nigger!" because it is the LAW to coloured folks to give their seat to whites in case the white section is full! And applauded when she was arrested for "civil disobedience". This case clearly is one of those "do more harm than good" cases, especially if he is deported.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Timwin

[Timwin]

Yes, many people break the laws in many countries. You're argument is that if they have a 'good' personal reason for doing so, it's justified? If the law gets in the way, just break it?

I would also add that it's bad enough to break the laws in one's own country, but even worse to do so as a guest in someone else's.

With that attitude we would be still bowing our heads to the feudal lords. Civil disobedience is crucial in many cases when the law is unfair, poorly constructed or biased. The civil disobedience forced US Southern States to stop their apartheid system with segregation laws and the rascists lost their political power. Maybe someday these kinds of senseless arrests will initiate Thais to change their labour laws for foreigners.

[DCvincens]

Chiropractor V Steen chiming in here.

1. To the people saying im unqualified or an amateur, you're all idiots. And unqualified. So I broke the law, sue me! (Get in line).

2. To my patients - Immigration have my phone. Cancel all future appointments. I'm so sorry for not being able to notify u all.

3. Thanks to the people who have dealt with me in the past and spoke their honest opinion.

3. Thai monkey house is not a place u wanna spend any time in. Stay outta trouble guys!

4. I'm going home. It's been real.

V

Edited August 20, 2014 by DCvincens

[featography]

He is the best chiropractor I have been to in Pattaya, and better than all but ne I have been to in Saudi Arabia and England.

Big loss to the community.

No, you don't need to go so far: There is well known and high recommended English DOCTOR in Chiang Mai: DR. PERRY,

look http://www.rajavejchiangmai.com/

I would strongly advise not following that advice Chasntong. I went to this Dr. Perry once. NEVER AGAIN. A waste of 1000B. I have a long history of using Chiro's and now living in Chiang Mai, I have only found 2 here, in 18 mos. The other, well, I had a consultation with him, and walked out when he wanted 35,000b for 10 sessions and wouldnt adjust me at the time of consultation. He wanted a commitment for the 10 sessions first. The best Chiro I have found in Thailand is Dr. Smith at the Dspine clinic in Bangkok. He did wonders for me over a 2 yr period and I only saw him 4 times at 1000b each. In Chiang Mai, my search for a good one continues. Dr. Smith is my only regret to leaving that area.

[featography]

He is the best chiropractor I have been to in Pattaya, and better than all but ne I have been to in Saudi Arabia and England.

Big loss to the community.

No, you don't need to go so far: There is well known and high recommended English DOCTOR in Chiang Mai: DR. PERRY,

look http://www.rajavejchiangmai.com/

I would strongly advise not following that advice Chasntong. I went to this Dr. Perry once. NEVER AGAIN. A waste of 1000B. I have a long history of using Chiro's and now living in Chiang Mai, I have only found 2 here, in 18 mos. The other, well, I had a consultation with him, and walked out when he wanted 35,000b for 10 sessions and wouldnt adjust me at the time of consultation. He wanted a commitment for the 10 sessions first. The best Chiro I have found in Thailand is Dr. Smith at the Dspine clinic in Bangkok. He did wonders for me over a 2 yr period and I only saw him 4 times at 1000b each. In Chiang Mai, my search for a good one continues. Dr. Smith is my only regret to leaving that area.

[featography]

Sure love to find a gooood Chiropractor in Chiang Mai. Tried that English fellow that works in one of the hospitals here but not to happy with his technique.

Yes, I find his technique and attitude a bit off-putting. Playing golf regularly has eased all of my previous problems so I probably won't go to see him again but I shall definitely continue with my annual visits to trusted guys in Australia.Things have changed - I was flying to Bangkok just to see chiropractors, and not being satisfied with any of them I was going to Pattaya where I was equally disappointed. Apparently there is someone else now in Chiang Mai but I don't know the details.

I agree about the English Chiro. Didnt do a bit of good for me, other than lightening my wallet. I found the other Chiro yesterday, a French man. I had a consultation, which didnt get me an adjustment due to my not jumping fast enough to commit to a 10 session contract for 35,000B. Wife and I saw no other patients in his clinic which is on a small hospital on Hwy 11 near the Big Tesco. 4 women had a long sales pitch with the wife, which took a long time to get us out of there. If by chance youre forced to fly back to Bkk for an adjustment, I highly recommend Dr. Smith at the Dspine Clinic. There are 2 clinics so call to find which one he is in. He treated me 4 times in 2 yrs with great success. I wish he would relocate to Chaing Mai.

[louse1953]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

What is a FALONG ????

Did the guy even check if he could get a work permit, i dont think so. He had a student visa, so obviously he hasnt the funds, so lets open a clinic, sod the laws, bye bye

My chiro in Oz is brilliant and has done many years of study.It is a license to print money,so hard to imagine,if qualified why he is not working in Europe.

Regarding falong it is a measure of distance!

[louse1953]

He was a big help to me over the past year. Plus he was a very "human" guy - when finished with doctor/patient, he enjoyed a chat about many different things. When he bought his Ninja, he was like a kid with a new toy. He'll be deported, of course, but not sure whether he'll try to get a licence and come back as his family have been at him to return to Norway for some time. Best of luck, Vincens.

If you enjoy putting your bodily well-being in the hands of an amateur, good luck to you.

Why not choose a local?

The man is a criminal, no matter how nice he seems.

1. Name 1 local chiropractor?

2. Who told you he was an armature ?

Were you aware to be qualified chiro in EU takes 4-6 years of study ?

So you checked out his qualifications in Norway did you.One thing i know about Pattaya/Jomtien area is bs is not in short supply.

Not sure if he was qualified to be an electric motor.

[louse1953]

Chiropractors have fallen out of favor with mainstream doctors in the US.

The best you can hope for is a good massage, the worst consequence is paralysis.

Not the kind of risk reward ratio worth trying.

I know a chiropractor who gave up his practice to go to law school.

I'm not sure if he is now doing more or less harm.

Chiros are recognised in Oz,you can even claim on medical benifits.Doctors never liked chiros because they are taking their work.I swear by mine.

[louse1953]

It's clear that he made a choice. His decision to operate as he did was probably a result of being ill advised.

Now he is at the mercy of the Thai immigration police and the Thai judicial system. Given the choice I'd take the Thai partner.

oh I like the smart TV members,

yes this guy was working illegal, but before you all shouting, kick this people out , they are illegal!

you all should start thinking, what are the laws and if the laws are fair and up to date.

You would choose the THAI partner? Wow you must be very rich and generously person, because

Thai law let you only max 49% of the bussiness, and for sure you have to pay 100% of the investment,

you will not find any thai partner who will put own money into the company.

Next many professions do not need a 2.000.000 baht company and 4 Thai staff to run,

50% of the legal WP peopel are anyway not leagal and break the way by you definition because their job description is not

excactly what they are doing in reality. It is a description only to get the work permit.

If a law isnt near reality it will for sure be broken in every country of the world !

You can be the best hairdresser in the world - you not allowed to work in thailand

you can be the boss of the mercedes forula 1 mechanic team, - you are not allowed to work in Thailand

You can be the best goldsmith in the world - you are not allowed to work in Thailand

and so on

I hope you will open one day a company with a thai partner and i guess after this you will never write such a stupid advice anymore

Thai Laws can be all the time against you, it doesnt matter what you are doing,

so no advises like they are breaking the law they have to face the punishedment

After that little tanty,i will advise,if you break Thai law,you suffer the consequences,same as anywhere else.Thai law is not there to suit you.

[Docno]

Yes, many people break the laws in many countries. You're argument is that if they have a 'good' personal reason for doing so, it's justified? If the law gets in the way, just break it?

I would also add that it's bad enough to break the laws in one's own country, but even worse to do so as a guest in someone else's.

With that attitude we would be still bowing our heads to the feudal lords. Civil disobedience is crucial in many cases when the law is unfair, poorly constructed or biased. The civil disobedience forced US Southern States to stop their apartheid system with segregation laws and the rascists lost their political power. Maybe someday these kinds of senseless arrests will initiate Thais to change their labour laws for foreigners.

If you look in my earlier post in the exchange, you will see that I said there were two options: act in accordance with the law or work to get the law changed. Civil disobedience clearly falls under the latter. Breaking the law 'quietly' for your own benefit is what I'm taking issue with. I would also add that if there is a moral issue involved in adhering to the law--i.e., if you disagree with the law on moral grounds--then one might make a reasonable argument for breaking the law. That would also apply to your extreme examples of apartheid and US segregation in which the state introduced morally repugnant laws. But setting up a business in defiance of the law I cannot see as a moral issue. You?

[louse1953]

The man obviously thought he was an exceptional professional who did not need to respect the law of his host country. He was wrong. It is best that others take heed.

when you take a friend to town with your bike or car you are breaking thai law, this is a profession reserved for thai,

when you translate a letter for someone in a foreign laguage you are breaking the law,

you borough a friend money, you are breaking the law

so you want to be deported?

you are breaking law every day in thailand, because thai law is like somebody will tell you, not proved and explained like in western ccountries

There are books available to read on Thai law,i suggest you read them.If not,ask the lawyer on this forum,be prepared to be wrong 3 times.

[louse1953]

The vast number of professionally schooled/trained Chiropractics by Western standards working in Thailand DO NOT have a professional license for Thailand OR have a legal Thai work permit! This is not necessarily because the Chiropractor tries to be a renegade thumb their noses at Thai law! It is usually the fault of the "clinic" operator/owner refusing to give their "employee" the necessary documents and processing to work legally. Chiropractors regardless if they are expats or Thai nationals cannot obtain a "clinic license" for running any kind of clinic! A Chiropractor can obtain a "professional license" for working as a Chiropractor in Thailand if they successfully pursue the licensing process established by the Thai Ministry of Health. There is a distinct difference between holding a professional license and "clinic license" for operating/owning a "clinic".

Even if a Chiropractor obtains a professional license, a work permit+visa must be obtained by Thai business "technically" registered to do this line of work. Many working Chiropractors working in Thailand do not have a Thai professional license or a legal work permit/visa. I would bet almost 100% of the Chiropractors working in Thailand are NOT following the letter of the law there just like almost all other legit businesses whether it be Thai nationals or expats. The established Chiropractic operators of Thailand (90% all Bkk) refuse to "sponsor" the expat doctors. The operators of the "multi-clinic" Chiropractic businesses ( most Thai nationals) refuse to give the expat docs the necessary papers to process a legal visa/work permit. Most expat Chiropractors would love to have the proper work permit/visa for Thailand, but it is "controlling and illegal" clinic operator that blocks them. The Chiropractic operators refuse to sponsor the expat employee so if something happens they can turn their backs on the expat and leave them hanging by their neck!

IF this Norwegian Chiropractor was working as a Chiropractor there without a professional license and/or legal work permit AND operating his OWN "clinic" then he was very exposed for sure! Truth be known he was just going along like so many other expats working there playing in the gray areas of the law and someone turned a dime on him and ratted him out. Sounds like Ministry of Health was not chasing him and he was providing a quality professional service to those that came to see him.

As for all the self-righteous expats slamming this law-breaker, I'd bet 100% of them have been outside the letter of the law in Thailand at one time or another!

What if somebody was hurt in his clinic,what would you say then.As far as being an outlaw some of us are smarter than the chiro.Low profile is the way to go and we dont get caught.

[wilcopops]

the answer then is to close down ALL chiropractors?

[wilcopops]

Chiropractors have fallen out of favor with mainstream doctors in the US.

The best you can hope for is a good massage, the worst consequence is paralysis.

Not the kind of risk reward ratio worth trying.

I know a chiropractor who gave up his practice to go to law school.

I'm not sure if he is now doing more or less harm.

Chiros are recognised in Oz,you can even claim on medical benifits.Doctors never liked chiros because they are taking their work.I swear by mine.

Doctors don't like chiropractic because it has no scientific basis. How can you expect a proper diagnosis if the practitioner isn't trained in that? hey are also MORE expensive than most trained physical massage practitioners or physiotherapists.

Chiropractic therapy incorporates the absurd notion that patients are suffering from "subluxations" that adversely affect their (or their children’s) health.

Edited August 21, 2014 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

Here is a summary of Chiropractic.

Chiropractic theory is rooted in the notions of Daniel David Palmer, a grocer and "magnetic healer" who postulated that the basic cause of disease was interference with the body's nerve supply. Approximately a hundred years ago, he concluded that "A subluxated vertebrae . . . is the cause of 95 percent of all diseases. . . . The other five percent is caused by displaced joints other than those of the vertebral column." He proclaimed that subluxations interfered with the body's expression of "Innate Intelligence"—the "Soul, Spirit, or Spark of Life" that controlled the healing process. He proposed to remedy the gamut of disease by manipulating or "adjusting" the problem areas.

It seems to me that this along with faith healing, homeopathy and the tooth fairy lack a lot as the basis for treatment of anything........

[pchansmorn]

Don't you think they could have tried to help him, instead of deporting him. They could have walked him though the paper work and licensing, made him legal, fined him and let him keep his business.

[smotherb]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

Wait a minute, before all of you jump onto the Thais for not letting farangs work. According to the article, "The suspect claimed that he was a former medical student and used to work with the therapists of a well known soccer team in Thailand."

Let's see that strong need we have for someone who once took a chiropractic course and once was the rub-down boy for a soccer team.

Sounds like he neither had the degree nor the license to practice in Thailand, let alone a work permit.

We already have so many unqualified teachers--without degrees, licenses or permits.

Why not allow falangs to do open heart surgery, practice law and issue work permits in Thailand?

Semantics, and you fell for it. Of course he's a former medical student, you clot. He's now a qualified chiropractor. So he's not "unqualified". He did chiro work for the national socer team under supervision (this was obviously a bit of PR work to help build his name - fair enough).

He will now pay the price for his stupidity, and he only has himself to blame. I have no sympathy for him in that regard, but some regret on a personal basis, much like many of the other posters. Don't be a klutz and confuse the emotions.

Well, Witawatwatawit, thank you for calling me a clot--perhaps a relection on your own cerebral circulation. Just where is it you find that he is a "qualified chiropractor"?

[balo]

Chiropractor V Steen chiming in here.

1. To the people saying im unqualified or an amateur, you're all idiots. And unqualified. So I broke the law, sue me! (Get in line).

2. To my patients - Immigration have my phone. Cancel all future appointments. I'm so sorry for not being able to notify u all.

3. Thanks to the people who have dealt with me in the past and spoke their honest opinion.

3. Thai monkey house is not a place u wanna spend any time in. Stay outta trouble guys!

4. I'm going home. It's been real.

V

Good luck , I wish you a safe return home.

If you decide to come back to Asia , there is a demand for chiropractors in Vietnam and Cambodia.

The laws there are much better for foreigners wanting to start a business.

[DCvincens]

Couple of more things:

Anyone here and elesewhere are welcome to check with the Swedish National Board of Health - I am a certified chiropractor with all the qualifications. It's an open register. Shouldn't be too hard for some of the geniuses in this thread.

Anhyone who has bought a treatment package deal with me will be reimbursed on their remaining balance. Contact me on [email protected] or 0806304845 and we'll set it up next week. Don't feel too sorry for me, I'm on my way to Koh Samui with my future wife, then back to Norway in a couple of months. Not too bad as back up plans go.

And a couple of technical details - there was no intravenous medicine in my office, this is a false report. Only NSAID tablets (ibuprofen etc) and neuropathic pain tablets. This is something I didnt even profit from, but as a service to my patients who often were mislead by other doctors/pharmacists. Wait for final court document to verify this. Also, I know who reported me, and it was not my landlady. There is more to this case than I care to discuss here, but it is what it is.

Vincens

Edited August 21, 2014 by DCvincens

[chrisinth]

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Makes sense that after tightening immigration they'll go after those who have somehow passed the net. I wonder how long until they crack down on bar owners.

Yep, seems the focus is on the medical world.

After all, a bar owner is just a pharmacist with a limited stock.......................

[petercool]

DCvincens .... good luck with it all ..... from me anyway .....

[asean]

Dear Vincens

It is a shame this has happened. It would have taken very little to have made you legally bulletproof with the right advice. There are foreign chiropractors dentists stem cell specialists all working legally here. There is nothing wrong with the law as I know they are easier than for a thai chiro or doctor to practice in Norway Sweden.

Your talents will obviously be missed.

Best of luck and consider it a cheap lesson in humility.

[Supatsa]

I am a physical education teacher having a master degree in physical education and a serious cyclist. Vince is one of the best chiropractors I have ever seen in all my life (I am 64 years old and I have seen a lot of doctors, physical therapists and osteopaths in several countries including France, Canada, USA and Thailand for various problems).

It is a shame that we will not have access to his treatments anymore. On the other hand, it is mandatory that a country regulates health practices of all kind. Does Thailand make it too complicated or difficult for qualified foreigners to work here? I would not be surprised about that. But I have seen the same in Canada where doctors, engineers, agronomists or other professionals from abroad are accepted in the country by the government but refused by the professional corporations that protect themselves!

I hope he will straighten up his condition and come back here with a legal status.

[wilcopops]

'I am a certified chiropractor with all the qualifications"

"I am a physical education teacher having a master degree in physical education and a serious cyclist" -

It wouldn't matter if you had a nobel prize for healthcare, the fact remains that Chiropractic is not based on any provable or testable theory and has NEVER shown any benefits under peer reviewed scrutiny apart from some lower back benefits that are attainable by normal scientific methods

Edited August 22, 2014 by wilcopops

[Zodiac]

"It wouldn't matter if you had a nobel prize for healthcare, the fact remains that Chiropractic is not based on any provable or testable theory and has NEVER shown any benefits under peer reviewed scrutiny apart from some lower back benefits that are attainable by normal scientific methods"

-I agree entirely with this comment by wilcopops.

And by the way DCVincens. Its quite breath taking that you have been working illegally in Thailand peddling what educated people know as junk science yet you come on this forum to try to justify yourself and insult those who dare to expose you for what you are.

Unbelievable!

Edited August 22, 2014 by Zodiac

[R123]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2009/04/7-things-you-need-to-know-about-chiropractic-therapy/

The above article says it all.

[orosee]

So far I see two main sides here:

People who know him and judge his character and skills to be good,

People who don't know him and judge his character and skills to be bad.

As B Trink used to say: "Manure - Human nature".

[dictater]

Meanwhile any Thai person can open a massage shop, hang out their shingle and start adjusting peoples backs. I know of numerous people who have suffered long time injury from Thai masseurs who have no license, no certificate and no problem operating legally.