Forced contributions to farewell party of future director

[onlycw]

In yesterday's meeting, the HoD reminded all foreign teachers that they must pay 200 B each month.

Personally, I hate the messy financial shenanigans and would rather i.pay when the time comes for a gift and the buffet dinner or whatever will be chosen. ii. We don't really know the guy - and he is way above our pay grade already. iii. Some donation should be made voluntarily. Do you think this is okay, forcing how much someone has to give?!?

TBH, I suspect that not all monies will be used as intended. A bit like the payments "for drinking water" while there has been none the last few weeks...

One school replaced all foreign teachers - choosing an agency for the coming year. No party, no thank you brunch. Nothing, nada. But the customary karaoke night was scheduled so that the Thai teachers can enjoy themselves without having foreigners drink with them and potentially spoil it all.

[lust]

<deleted> 200 a month? for what

[Scott]

I know of a place where everyone had 20 baht deducted to help pay for someone who had cancer. No one was told who it was though and I doubt that it was anyone from that particular school.

[shirtless]

This is just a cash grab, do the maths eat the dinner you pay while administration take the money.

[BruceMangosteen]

A one time only deduction of 200baht for the retirement party is customary. Not "each month" as you listed and not for the future Director as you also posted. It is for the all retiring teachers and staff, not just a Director.(unless of course she's the only one) It's also in late September each year. No big deal. You aren't required to go, just to pay. If you go you will be surprised that you are treated well and appreciated. The food will be Thai of course, but usually a bottle of whiskey on each table and various mixers and ice. No beer.

[meand]

I have always been very surprised people just roll over here when they are forced to pay things like this.

Some people say "it's not a big deal". Stuff like this is a big deal, a very big deal. It should not be tolerated. You could just as easily say "it's not a big deal" to take a small sum from everybody's paychecks, but it is a big deal. Why would extortion, intimidation and effectively stealing be ok? Why would you tolerate that?

These people are absolutely, 100% no different to me than a beggar who puts his hand out on the street. In that case, I choose to give or not. To be forced to give to the beggar is unacceptable though. The more people give in, the worse it gets, as can be seen in Thailand today. As mentioned, the only thing that continues to amaze me is the lack of outrage on the part of the foreign working contingent.

Edited August 23, 2014 by meand

[BruceMangosteen]

I have always been very surprised people just roll over here when they are forced to pay things like this.

The once a year retirement party is a long held and cherished event. It is the only, once a year, forced contribution and you are invited to said party. I repeat, I don't know what the OP was talking about "monthly" deductions. Once a year, 200baht, no big deal whatsoever. It isn't the start of anything.

[SlyAnimal]

Personally I enjoyed the retirement parties while I was at my old school. They always had plenty of good food, whiskey and everyone really let their hair down for them. They were great opportunities to kinda bond with the other teachers at the school in a really social atmosphere.

Although if it were 200 per month, I wouldn't be ok with that.... as a one off though I would be fine with that (Although I'm not sure if they actually took anything out of our salaries for the retirement parties).

They did however take 50 out each time a teacher had a baby, and 100 out each time a member of a teacher's immediate family passed away. Which I could definitely see the sense in, as then people won't feel like they "need" to put some money in the envelope for a teacher whom they don't know, since it's already come out of their salary (Although they can still put some in of course if they know the teacher). Although I did have a bit of a go at the school's administration the first time it happened, simply because they didn't tell us about this rule earlier.

The school would also ask each teacher to pay ฿100 during sports week, as a contribution towards their colour's materials for making signs/costumes etc. I was always a bit annoyed with this, as although I was happy to contribute, since I like to get behind these sorts of events, it seemed a bit silly that the school itself wasn't funding these events for the students, and instead relied on the teachers to contribute themselves. There usually was a good party at the end of sports week though, which the school did fund though lol.

What did really get a lot of both Thai and Farang teachers annoyed though, was when my school had it's 50 year anniversary. The school decided that every teacher should make a ฿1000 compulsory donation directly from their salary. This wasn't too bad for the senior staff and farang who are all on 30k+, but the Thai staff who weren't civil servants.... who were only making about ฿8000 per month were absolutely livid!

[Scott]

Mandatory deductions irritate me, regardless of how big or how small, but they seem to be an accepted practice in Thailand.

[rbkk]

Thai Labour Law - Section 76. They are breaking the law.

http://www.labour.go.th/en/attachments/article/18/Labour_Protection_Act_BE1998.pdf

[BruceMangosteen]

They did however take 50 out each time a teacher had a baby, and 100 out each time a member of a teacher's immediate family passed away.

The school would also ask each teacher to pay ฿100 during sports week, as a contribution towards their colour's materials for making signs/costumes etc.

What did really get a lot of both Thai and Farang teachers annoyed though, was when my school had it's 50 year anniversary. The school decided that every teacher should make a ฿1000 compulsory donation directly from their salary.

These are not only not acceptable, I would have demanded the money back. The school birthday parties are sold by the table. Sports week items are in the school budget. Having children and death are part of life and should be an individual choice as to making a financial donation. Once a year, the retirement party, okay. Nothing more.

[lostinisaan]

At my former school, we just put some cash together for any events. Or buying a present for not more than 100 baht.

OP, are you sure that this isn't just a new Nigerian scam?-

Edited August 23, 2014 by lostinisaan

[Eddy B]

When I was working at one school, we were told by the head of the English department everyone had to chip-in towards the electric bill for the air-con. I refused as I only spent time in the office to either print something off or pick-up copies of worksheets for classes that I had prepared in my time when not teaching down in the photocopy room that had no air-con. They were not happy with me and their was another foreign teacher I was working with and he was calling me a tight-ass but I told him to f^%k off too as he was a real ass licker to all the Thai teachers. The Thai teachers had half of my hours and would just sit in the room with the air-con going, watching <deleted> daytime tv and stuffing their faces with food. Do not pay, for anything as the school should have the budget to cover all costs for all amenities and functions they have sceduled.

[lostinisaan]

When I was working at one school, we were told by the head of the English department everyone had to chip-in towards the electric bill for the air-con. I refused as I only spent time in the office to either print something off or pick-up copies of worksheets for classes that I had prepared in my time when not teaching down in the photocopy room that had no air-con. They were not happy with me and their was another foreign teacher I was working with and he was calling me a tight-ass but I told him to f^%k off too as he was a real ass licker to all the Thai teachers. The Thai teachers had half of my hours and would just sit in the room with the air-con going, watching <deleted> daytime tv and stuffing their faces with food. Do not pay, for anything as the school should have the budget to cover all costs for all amenities and functions they have sceduled.

Khun Kru Eddie, you're obviously in the wrong country.

[meand]

I have always been very surprised people just roll over here when they are forced to pay things like this.

The once a year retirement party is a long held and cherished event. It is the only, once a year, forced contribution and you are invited to said party. I repeat, I don't know what the OP was talking about "monthly" deductions. Once a year, 200baht, no big deal whatsoever. It isn't the start of anything.

Let's analyze the implications of your statements.

"200 baht, [to a single organization] over a one year period not a big deal at all".

Well, if we are to take your words for what they really mean, you are saying that other organizations and individuals in your life can ask for money once a year ad infinitum, and it's "not a big deal". That's not correct, it's a very big deal.

But, there is more. Your job is your livelihood (sometimes I feel compelled to state obvious things). Some people have kids, wives, sick mothers, alcoholic uncles..... point being, people have their own problems and need money, which is why they work.

Now, what you are saying is that it is ok to intimidate a person by pain of losing their job (which, let's all stipulate, that is the implication here when people don't pay) if you don't give them money. Again, let's face it, they are intimidating people using their livelihoods as leverage, and using that to extort money.

You can live in your little ill-informed bubble and think this is ok all you want. I assure you, it is not ok, far from it. I can't think of too many worse things than using a man's family and earning potential against him to extort money actually.

[onlycw]

Let me elaborate: for the last few months, we have been asked for monthly contributions "to a party". When questioned, drinking water and paper for printing was mentioned, too. the amount used to be 100 B, now it's 200 B. And the collections will be enforced.

The promised "Sports Day shirts for the teachers" never materialized. But some teachers walked around with a list, soliciting payment for shirts. There had been none for yours truly, so the explanation given was it's for the students' shirts. Really? This would be a first. Because when orphans wept openly on the stage on Way Kru Day, none of the monies collected were for those poor orphans. Oh no!

A one-off party? Even 500 B wouldn't be a big deal. But I hate sly schemes with no accounting. Moreover, who is the self-appointed prick who's deciding on other people's contributions for anything?!?

No debate, no vote. Seems to be the Thai style.

Why can't they ask for say 500 B? Buffet lunch, karaoke and booze. Buying some gift with the balance.But it's gonna be 2,400 p.a.with no clear objective what the money will be used for. (There hasn't been drinking water in many moons and the printer's knackered).

Pay up and &lt;deleted&gt;?

[BruceMangosteen]

You can live in your little ill-informed bubble and think this is ok all you want. I assure you, it is not ok, far from it. I can't think of too many worse things than using a man's family and earning potential against him to extort money actually.

Once again, you are off on a tangent. I said it was once a year, and 200baht, and for the retirement party. These parties are very important to the Thai staff. They in fact live for them, the highlight of their year. Why spoil it with your naive complaints? I would not accept any more than once a year, I made that clear. It is not extortion, it is participating in Thai culture. Get your context in order mate. It's a big deal these parties, to Thai people. They have no other life like some farang teachers.

[BruceMangosteen]

A one-off party? Even 500 B wouldn't be a big deal. But I hate sly schemes with no accounting. Moreover, who is the self-appointed prick who's deciding on other people's contributions for anything?!?

it is done by committee, the committee which decides on other purchases such as books and tables and chairs. I guess call it a budget committee so there is a vote and debate. Sure, the Director may have veto power and influence but she would not IMHO override something like the amount to be deducted for the retirement party. School birthday and sports week a completely different matter. I've never heard(until yesterday) of those being compulsory via payroll deductions or demands. As I said, the tables to those are sold by the table(s) to the departments and students.

[BruceMangosteen]

Khun Kru Eddie, you're obviously in the wrong country.

I think he makes a good point, but once again, we are referring to something no one has ever heard of.....making contributions to the electric expenses? It is much more likely the Director will come out with the ridiculous rule of setting the thermostat on 27' which is ignored after half a day because the rooms aren't insulated etc..

Khun Kru Eddie, in this country, it is better to just pretend you understand the order then ignore it vs. trying to understand and rationalize it. No one will ever question why you didn't do as told because farangs aren't expected to do what they are told.

[meand]

You can live in your little ill-informed bubble and think this is ok all you want. I assure you, it is not ok, far from it. I can't think of too many worse things than using a man's family and earning potential against him to extort money actually.

Once again, you are off on a tangent. I said it was once a year, and 200baht, and for the retirement party. These parties are very important to the Thai staff. They in fact live for them, the highlight of their year. Why spoil it with your naive complaints? I would not accept any more than once a year, I made that clear. It is not extortion, it is participating in Thai culture. Get your context in order mate. It's a big deal these parties, to Thai people. They have no other life like some farang teachers.

You are correct in the context that I can in fact go off on tangents, no argument there

As concisely as I can say it, so as to satisfy you I don't think it is legitimate to label forcing a person into giving money as part of a nation's "culture". That is not what culture is.

If it is so important to the Thais, then there should be no problem supporting it themselves. There are many things important to me. Drinking water for people that don't have any for example. Should I be able to force a Thai employee working under me into contributing to my cause because I "feel it is very important"?

Whether or not it is important to them is inconsequential to me, and this can't rationally be used as a legit reason to force a worker into making payments. My dehydrated children are no doubt inconsequential to them, and I have no problem with that, but why in the world should they ever be essentially forced into caring for those children? What is important to one group of people should not be artificially superimposed onto others. Forced "giving" just doesn't work; attrition is not a legitimate way to involve others in your "culture". I refuse to partake in such lavish hypocrisy, and I feel it should be everyone's right to do the same. The very fact that they force people to contribute signifies that people would not otherwise. So, much of the answer to this riddle is right there.

Lastly, if it was not already clear, I also don't think you can use "only once a year" to legitimize this, or any other, extortion. I am not sure why you feel it is not extortion btw. Extortion is exactly what it is, to the definition. Let's just say for the sake of argument that it's not extortion, well, the argument "it's only once a year" still does not hold any weight whatsoever. Think about it, by this very assertion you are necessarily saying you don't really agree with the payments, as it infers you'd like to keep them to a minimum ("once a year"), but it is "ok, because it is just this one little teeny time per year" is essentially what you are saying.

Ok, I was not able to be concise, so have at me

Edited August 24, 2014 by meand

[SlyAnimal]

Most of these deductions are put in place via a meeting of the staff, or representatives of the staff, who vote in favour of a motion because it will benefit the majority.

Some (like the ฿1000 donation at my school) I can only assume come directly from the Director, as I very much doubt the staff would have voted for it.

An initiative which has the support of the majority of staff, is generally a good thing. Others, which are imposed by the directors, are likely to be bad things. And some initiatives which require funds, for things which the school should cover, are very questionable....

Also remember that when teachers do make a contribution, the school may also be contributing, maybe even a much greater amount than the teachers are, so sometimes there's more to it than what you think.

Edit: Although the OP's example, of 200 per month, every month, is definitely too much..... if you're putting up 2400 for a party each year, with 100x teachers contributing, that'd be 240,000.... maybe more if your school is quite large. It'd better be one hell of a party!!

[meand]

Most of these deductions are put in place via a meeting of the staff, or representatives of the staff, who vote in favour of a motion because it will benefit the majority.

Some (like the ฿1000 donation at my school) I can only assume come directly from the Director, as I very much doubt the staff would have voted for it.

An initiative which has the support of the majority of staff, is generally a good thing. Others, which are imposed by the directors, are likely to be bad things. And some initiatives which require funds, for things which the school should cover, are very questionable....

Also remember that when teachers do make a contribution, the school may also be contributing, maybe even a much greater amount than the teachers are, so sometimes there's more to it than what you think.

Edit: Although the OP's example, of 200 per month, every month, is definitely too much..... if you're putting up 2400 for a party each year, with 100x teachers contributing, that'd be 240,000.... maybe more if your school is quite large. It'd better be one hell of a party!!

I think you are generalizing the way these "contributions" begin too much. I have seen a single foreign teacher start one of these funds, I feel like the administration (or "the top") initiates some, and everything in between. I agree with you in that some of these contributions may be more questionable than others.

An overview of this whole thought process for me is like this: the royal party pretty much goes out and gets "donations" on a daily basis. You can see it right on the news. It is part of the culture that the "poor" give to the rich no doubt in my mind. That is a fact. My opinion is that they do this out of greed, but also to give a sort of domineering "I'm higher than you" vibe. It is as much about control in my opinion as it is about money.

I think cultural traditions are great, and I in no way want to put a stop to all of this. However, when it comes to "graciously" including foreigners in their culture by way of forcing them to give money, this is simply unacceptable. In fact, I can compare it to other cultures who have "deleterious cultural" aspects. Let's take the way in which women are treated in the middle east as an example. Is it "ok" to subject a foreigner to this "culture". Of course it isn't. You can't, or at the very least should not, impose you culture on others when it harms them in some way, physically or financially.

As mentioned, the only thing that surprises me about it all is that foreigners put up with it. I think that is amazing, and not very indicative of our own cultures at all.

Here is yet another way to look at this. If a random person comes up to you on the street and asks for 200 baht, what are you likely to say? Probably no. Well, that is because the person has no leverage over you. People that have any sort of managerial role should by necessity be prohibited from asking for money because of the potential ramifications they could impose on the employee, real or fabricated. In cases where managers do ask for money it is irresponsible, unprofessional, impudent, lacks tact and should never be tolerated.

Edited August 24, 2014 by meand

[SlyAnimal]

It's not part of Thai culture, it's part of the workplace culture.

Thus, as a member of that workplace, you are a part of the workplace culture.

A small amount, which has a benefit for the contributor (e.g. a party) seems fine, or even if you were contributing towards aircon (since otherwise the aircon might be locked at 30 degrees, since Thai people are fine with that, but due to the contributions, you it can be turned down to 22 to make the place more comfortable).

Although some of the requests can go over the line of what is really "acceptable", either by being too much, or because it's going to be used for dubious purposes.

[meand]

Honestly, if you think employees should be paying air conditioning bills we probably have no more to discuss. That is ridiculous, as is forcing employees to pay money for something they may or may not care about. We go to work to earn money, not to be exposed to and manipulated by nefarious collection techniques.

Edited August 25, 2014 by meand

[swbcare]

Same by us. After the flooding a b300 deduction. Allwould get money out the fund who was effected by the flooding. My house yoke 2 meter water, by coming back aftrr 3 months no airco, waterpump, cooler and even the lights in the garden stolen. Thai staf then decided only money for thais. ...it feels like you are robbed.

[meand]

The writing is on the walls when it comes to this stuff, I just don't understand why people don's see it. If I work for Bill Gates, and I get into a little trouble, I can't just go to him and say "Can you give me about 10,000 dollars, it is really only a small amount to you, and we really need it". What else is there to say other than things just don't work like that. Everybody needs money. Everybody (at one point or another), so there is a big problem with the "logic" behind it all when you consider that.

I would go as far as to say this... it is rude, obnoxious, and unprofessional to ask people for money at work. There are few instances where I may get over it however, if I feel it was justified. However, to FORCE people to give money at work is NOTHING SHORT OF CRIMINAL EXTORTION. The actual law may not see it that way, but I do and have no problem standing behind that comment and backing it up. Your boss simply can't force you to give money without it being a crime.

[penkrew]

I don't suppose any of these mystery contributions are mentioned in your contract? (assuming they gave you a contract in the first place)

Paying for the electric is absurd.

[meand]

I don't suppose any of these mystery contributions are mentioned in your contract? (assuming they gave you a contract in the first place)

Paying for the electric is absurd.

Sometimes people will make the argument that it's in your contract to respect Thai culture and customs. Which, that very conveniently translates to "give us money". I think all can see my point.

It has been argued here that it is not Thai culture that we are following, but work culture, of which we were forced into being a part of. Take that argument however you wish, it does not make much sense to me. I am there to earn money, not to be forced into giving it away.

When people can't support their arguments with logical assertions, it usually means they are wrong.

If anybody cares too, look up the exact definition of extortion. That is exactly what is going on when the school forces you to contribute money.

[onlycw]

Well, they have decided not to collect any money from the foreigners. (Have you encountered schidzophrenic vascillations like this before? I sure have! Once I asked "is there a book I need to follow?" A: No book. A few weeks later, the HoD comes in and lambasts me for not using a book. You cannot make some things up.

I was asking whom to pay - but they no longer wanted any payment. Utterly bizarre. But quite typical. We have had long meetings with grand proclamations and then? Nothing, nada!

[meand]

Well, they have decided not to collect any money from the foreigners. (Have you encountered schidzophrenic vascillations like this before? I sure have! Once I asked "is there a book I need to follow?" A: No book. A few weeks later, the HoD comes in and lambasts me for not using a book. You cannot make some things up.

I was asking whom to pay - but they no longer wanted any payment. Utterly bizarre. But quite typical. We have had long meetings with grand proclamations and then? Nothing, nada!

Maybe they read this thread and realized their own douchbaggery.