EDITORIAL
Path to democracy already constricted
The Nation

A tightly controlled Reform Council will fail to bring changes that reflect opinions from all political sides

BANGKOK: -- By its very definition, reform to strengthen democracy must be inclusive. Otherwise democracy will never have the chance to take deep root in society. And by "inclusive" we mean that all voices and all demands - whatever their means of peaceful expression - must be tolerated by the powers-that-be.

Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha said last week he did not want to see any street rallies, protests or demonstrations that might give the impression of social confusion or disorder. Rather than protesting, said Prayuth, those with ideas for reform should apply to be members of the National Reform Council. Anyone can apply to be a council member, which Prayuth has declared is the only valid channel for the reform process.

Last week the junta arrested a group of people for campaigning on the street for energy reform. This particular group had initially voiced support for the military coup. Like the junta, it believed that top-down reform would prevent politicians from manipulating the energy sector for their own benefit. The group's members were among the first to back the idea of military intervention to overthrow the elected government, believing the junta would reform the energy sector and bring down costs for consumers.

But, to their disappointment, the junta appointed the same old faces to oversee energy reform. This elite club has played a key and continuous role in managing energy policy over the years, no matter who is in government. In his weekly televised address Prime Minister Prayuth said activists who stage street rallies demanding energy reform know nothing about these issues but are instead spreading false information.

This group of activists will not be the last we see. Rubber farmers are planning rallies to demand assistance to offset falling prices. In the past the farmers have not been afraid to back their demands with strong action, even shutting down transport routes linking the South with the rest of the country. But now, though the price of rubber has fallen below Bt50 per kilogram, they are banned from voicing their demands. Ironically, this group also supported the coup.

Prayuth last week also warned the farmers not to stage any demonstrations demanding a subsidy, since the government has no budget to pay for it. Agriculture, he said, was one area earmarked for reform - which was the job of the reform council, not public forums such as the media and street rallies.

Prayuth is a military commander. He was educated and trained to give and receive instructions as part of a rigid chain of command. As such he is unfamiliar with the relative chaos of an open society, where people cherish the ability to freely voice contrary opinions and demands. Instead he has declared that demands should be made through the "proper channels" - that top-down approach.

This would be fine if the channel the junta had designated were wide enough to funnel the demands and opinions of every party and group into the final decision-making process.

Unfortunately it is not: the reform council only accommodates 250 members and the selection process means it won't be open to all. This is because those tasked with picking people for the job of national reform are unlikely to select anyone whose views, opinions and information differ much from those of the junta and the elite now running the country. And, of course, there is also no guarantee that the government will implement suggestions from the reform council.

For the restoration of democracy to succeed, all voices must be heard, from wherever they come and whatever the view expressed. Suppressing, arresting and imprisoning those who express contrary ideas in public will never produce successful reform.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Path-to-democracy-already-constricted-30241734.html


-- The Nation 2014-08-26

My word! Could this be an abrupt end to the honeymoon period?

The problem is that there is actual role model for a democratic process as we see it from a western standpoint.

Asian society is a society of patronage and as such that system encourage creative solutions to problems i.e bribery and corruption and of course the abuse of power and position.

We can but hope that the birth of the child of a more democratic society may have just begun. however to bring the child of democracy up is not going to be an easy task.Grandparents with vested interests and other relatives will try to influence that child to achieve, retain or consolidate their own viewpoints.

So the child may be chastised and disciplined at times thus causing that child and society to throw a tantrum or three or more,such actions and outcomes are part of the process of growing up and maturing.

Regarding the background of Prayuth being ''military;; yes that is so, however we would do well not to forget that the Thai people (in fact Asians in general) do not have the western outlook on democracy which in the majority of cases in the west is a stoutly defended individual right , there is a big difference twixt east and west.

So perhaps if there was a little less conjecture on the matter of democracy and its subsequent progress by the assorted parties we might just find that Thailand and its peoples will actually move forward.

The O.P. reminds me of those critics who pan a publication, movie stage play etc based upon their preferences and their personal thoughts yet that which they decry goes on to become a success.

So why don't we all wait to see how things go ?

Time whether we like it or not is not of the essence such reforms as proposed take months nay years before they actually start to affect the country deeply.

We are dealing with an ingrained set of values and traditions as opposeed to the packaging of some factory product which is easily changed after a short period of research.

Do any of us in reality expect to see a dramatic change occur within weeks?

No I somehow doubt it.

Looking at European history and I should include American history too I think the various revolutions,uprisings, government overthrows etc we note that change has taken time and indeed sometimes those changes have proved as bloody as the events that led to changes in the ruling bodies..

Slow process hopefully will breed a strong child of democracy which will hopefully mature into a responsible caring adult democracy along with the ability, willingness and the intelligence to defend its views and its family the Thai people in the coming years.

Before Democracy can work a strong foundation must be put in place that supports all of the following, this must be completed by competent people qualified to do so with input from ordinary people considered - followed by a referendum to approve

- fair elections free from vote buying - intimidation - unworkable populist policies

- Candidates must also be capable of doing the job and free from criminal convictions

- checks and balances system must be put in place with serious penalties if caught braking them

- agencies must have the power and budget to pursue those in office breaking the law, no more immunity while in office

- The constitution can only be amended with either a referendum or at least a 2/3 majority in the house (lower and upper) for individual amendments - very important

- Independent agencies to investigate and convict those committing corruption with severe penalties

- Those convicted while in office banned for life from politics

- Budget transparency

This would get things started

Be careful what you wish for

Regarding the background of Prayuth being ''military;; yes that is so, however we would do well not to forget that the Thai people (in fact Asians in general) do not have the western outlook on democracy which in the majority of cases in the west is a stoutly defended individual right , there is a big difference twixt east and west.

That's an incredibly patronizing and one could even say, a racist POV. You'd be run out of town in parts of Indonesia, Hong Kong, Japan and even India for saying that "Asians in general" don't understand individual rights. I've spent an awful lot of time with democracy advocates and activists in Java and other parts of Indonesia and they fully "understand" democracy as it exists in the west. The only reason they have not been able to achieve it in past decades is because military strongmen who think they know better have suffocated the aspirations of millions.

Snig27 post # 6.

That's an incredibly patronizing and one could even say, a racist POV. You'd be run out of town in parts of Indonesia, Hong Kong, Japan and even India for saying that "Asians in general" don't understand individual rights. I've spent an awful lot of time with democracy advocates and activists in Java and other parts of Indonesia and they fully "understand" democracy as it exists in the west. The only reason they have not been able to achieve it in past decades is because military strongmen who think they know better have suffocated the aspirations of millions.

''Racist and patronizing''

So with your vast experience of being involved with democracy advocates in the countries mentioned what was or what is your actual input into the matter ?

Edited August 26, 201411 yr by siampolee

"The choice for mankind lies between freedom and happiness and for the great bulk of mankind, happiness is better"

The official policy I think.

The newspaper that openly supported the protests that could only lead to a coup and a military dictatorship are now surprised that things have ended up this way?

Regarding the background of Prayuth being ''military;; yes that is so, however we would do well not to forget that the Thai people (in fact Asians in general) do not have the western outlook on democracy which in the majority of cases in the west is a stoutly defended individual right , there is a big difference twixt east and west.

That's an incredibly patronizing and one could even say, a racist POV. You'd be run out of town in parts of Indonesia, Hong Kong, Japan and even India for saying that "Asians in general" don't understand individual rights. I've spent an awful lot of time with democracy advocates and activists in Java and other parts of Indonesia and they fully "understand" democracy as it exists in the west. The only reason they have not been able to achieve it in past decades is because military strongmen who think they know better have suffocated the aspirations of millions.

I think you will find that in most cases of western democracy they were born from rebellion - revolution - military conflict etc - put what ever slant you want on it but generals and guns were involved in all of them - those that didn't make it are still run by tyrants supported by armies

Thailand has a cyclic history of democratic failure and intervention throughout it's history - simply because not enough checks and balances were put in place by each implementation of the constitution - Imagine this.................

Lets suppose that during the last government the only way to make constitutional/charter amendments or pass certain types of bills was for either referendum (which exists) or a 2/3 majority of both houses - PTP would still be in government right now because they would never have attempted to do what they did - it would never have been passed, they would have had to negotiate with the opposition to gain some support from them to progress, just that one simple change would have avoided all the conflict.............think about it - Thaksin would have had no way to progress his agenda so it would never have started - in saying that I think he would have attempted a civil war as an alternative

other stuff like budgets loans rice scams would all have been covered up - but that's another story - more holes that need firmly plugged

Edited August 26, 201411 yr by smedly

What would a man like the good general know about democracy?

If he has spent his adult life in the Army, I would think that the answer to that question would be very little, as the military does not operate in a democratic way.

Its a shame that the people can't conduct a peaceful protest regarding energy reform and rising power costs and the dropping of rubber prices, (with out the threat of arrest) which are serious every day issues concerning the people of Thailand.

**** Off topic deflection comments edited out ****

Edited August 26, 201411 yr by metisdead

What would a man like the good general know about democracy?

If he has spent his adult life in the Army, I would think that the answer to that question would be very little, as the military does not operate in a democratic way.

Its a shame that the people can't conduct a peaceful protest regarding energy reform and rising power costs and the reduction of rubber costs, (with out the threat of arrest) which are serious every day issues concerning the people of Thailand.

**** Off topic deflection comments edited out ****

seems he is doing a better job than anyone else

as for the protestors - perhaps not quite the right time to proceed - as the general has said - give the government time to make changes don't just object because you feel you have a right, I'm pretty sure energy reform is on the cards, what's the point of protesting something that hasn't happened, certain amount of common sense required right now by these so called protestors - I'd tend to call them disruptors

The last thing Thailand needs is 'Democracy'. If destroyed ancient Greece and eventually destroyed Rome. What Thailand need is 'Rule of Law' and not rule by mob/majority that is Democracy. I live in a Republic which respects and assures personal rights by rule of law and not 'whim of politician'. Democracy is what allows Thai politicians to change their constitution at the drop of a hat to suit their current needs. Democracy is fed by populism where the dwindling number of 'haves' support an ever-growing number of 'have nots'. It is unsustainable.

For your edification: The American form of government.

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

rametindallas, on 26 Aug 2014 - 11:45, said:

The last thing Thailand needs is 'Democracy'. If destroyed ancient Greece and eventually destroyed Rome. What Thailand need is 'Rule of Law' and not rule by mob/majority that is Democracy. I live in a Republic which respects and assures personal rights by rule of law and not 'whim of politician'. Democracy is what allows Thai politicians to change their constitution at the drop of a hat to suit their current needs. Democracy is fed by populism where the dwindling number of 'haves' support an ever-growing number of 'have nots'. It is unsustainable.

For your edification: The American form of government.

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

Democracy does NOT allow the constitution to be changed, this is the failure, in the first place, to implement a secure constitution, take Australia, the constitution can NOT be changed without the consent of the people, this being in the form of a referendum, something very foreign to Thailand.

rametindallas, on 26 Aug 2014 - 11:45, said:

The last thing Thailand needs is 'Democracy'. If destroyed ancient Greece and eventually destroyed Rome. What Thailand need is 'Rule of Law' and not rule by mob/majority that is Democracy. I live in a Republic which respects and assures personal rights by rule of law and not 'whim of politician'. Democracy is what allows Thai politicians to change their constitution at the drop of a hat to suit their current needs. Democracy is fed by populism where the dwindling number of 'haves' support an ever-growing number of 'have nots'. It is unsustainable.

For your edification: The American form of government.

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

Democracy does NOT allow the constitution to be changed, this is the failure, in the first place, to implement a secure constitution, take Australia, the constitution can NOT be changed without the consent of the people, this being in the form of a referendum, something very foreign to Thailand.

This is not a forum about Australia. Thailand's democracy DOES allow for changes in the constitution, piecemeal, as allowed very recently by a Supreme Court decision. Watch the video and then comment on what a democracy is.

"But, to their disappointment, the junta appointed the same old faces to oversee energy reform. This elite club has played a key and continuous role in managing energy policy over the years, no matter who is in government. In his weekly televised address Prime Minister Prayuth said activists who stage street rallies demanding energy reform know nothing about these issues but are instead spreading false information."

Demonstrators and voters know nothing about the issues. Leave it to the good men to make the right decisions and select proper management talent from the correct candidates within the elite circle. All voices opposing this are victims of false information. False information is a threat to national security and leads to divisiveness, confusion, disharmony and ultimately unhappiness.

Edited August 26, 201411 yr by 96tehtarp

rametindallas, on 26 Aug 2014 - 11:45, said:

The last thing Thailand needs is 'Democracy'. If destroyed ancient Greece and eventually destroyed Rome. What Thailand need is 'Rule of Law' and not rule by mob/majority that is Democracy. I live in a Republic which respects and assures personal rights by rule of law and not 'whim of politician'. Democracy is what allows Thai politicians to change their constitution at the drop of a hat to suit their current needs. Democracy is fed by populism where the dwindling number of 'haves' support an ever-growing number of 'have nots'. It is unsustainable.

For your edification: The American form of government.

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

Democracy does NOT allow the constitution to be changed, this is the failure, in the first place, to implement a secure constitution, take Australia, the constitution can NOT be changed without the consent of the people, this being in the form of a referendum, something very foreign to Thailand.

This is not a forum about Australia. Thailand's democracy DOES allow for changes in the constitution, piecemeal, as allowed very recently by a Supreme Court decision. Watch the video and then comment on what a democracy is.

Therin lies the problem. Thailand would be a much more stable country if the constitution could only be changed by a referendum, and the military was not able to rip it up with impunity. Coup after coup, because the military are always immune from the consequences of whatever actions they take.

Edited August 26, 201411 yr by Thanet

The military seem to be forgetting their old friends very quickly, now that they have total control over everything.

I'll bet those rubber farmers, the ones who sat on the street for months in the blazing sun during the Bangkok shutdown, feel like complete jerks now.

Having voiced their disapproval, I wonder what their chances are of being hand picked by the junta to sit on the NRC?

rametindallas, on 26 Aug 2014 - 11:45, said:

The last thing Thailand needs is 'Democracy'. If destroyed ancient Greece and eventually destroyed Rome. What Thailand need is 'Rule of Law' and not rule by mob/majority that is Democracy. I live in a Republic which respects and assures personal rights by rule of law and not 'whim of politician'. Democracy is what allows Thai politicians to change their constitution at the drop of a hat to suit their current needs. Democracy is fed by populism where the dwindling number of 'haves' support an ever-growing number of 'have nots'. It is unsustainable.

For your edification: The American form of government.

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

Democracy does NOT allow the constitution to be changed, this is the failure, in the first place, to implement a secure constitution, take Australia, the constitution can NOT be changed without the consent of the people, this being in the form of a referendum, something very foreign to Thailand.

This is not a forum about Australia. Thailand's democracy DOES allow for changes in the constitution, piecemeal, as allowed very recently by a Supreme Court decision. Watch the video and then comment on what a democracy is.

Therin lies the problem. Thailand would be a much more stable country if the constitution could only be changed by a referendum, and the military was not able to rip it up with impunity. Coup after coup, because the military are always immune from the consequences of whatever actions they take.

You seem to be 'conveniently' forgetting the last Thaksin Yingluck government wanting to change how Senators were selected, among other changes to the Constitution. Of course, you have been consistently one-sided in your posts.

BTW, if it weren't for the occasional coup, Thailand would have an oligarchy by now because the form of populist democracy they have been following is unsustainable. Thaksin would have been the equivalent of Cambodia's Hun Sen i.e. President for Life, if it hadn't been for a coup. (Not that that matters to you; who loves Thaksin more than Thai people)

rametindallas, on 26 Aug 2014 - 12:40, said:

MediaWatcher, on 26 Aug 2014 - 12:28, said:

rametindallas, on 26 Aug 2014 - 11:45, said:rametindallas, on 26 Aug 2014 - 11:45, said:

The last thing Thailand needs is 'Democracy'. If destroyed ancient Greece and eventually destroyed Rome. What Thailand need is 'Rule of Law' and not rule by mob/majority that is Democracy. I live in a Republic which respects and assures personal rights by rule of law and not 'whim of politician'. Democracy is what allows Thai politicians to change their constitution at the drop of a hat to suit their current needs. Democracy is fed by populism where the dwindling number of 'haves' support an ever-growing number of 'have nots'. It is unsustainable.

For your edification: The American form of government.

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

Democracy does NOT allow the constitution to be changed, this is the failure, in the first place, to implement a secure constitution, take Australia, the constitution can NOT be changed without the consent of the people, this being in the form of a referendum, something very foreign to Thailand.

This is not a forum about Australia. Thailand's democracy DOES allow for changes in the constitution, piecemeal, as allowed very recently by a Supreme Court decision. Watch the video and then comment on what a democracy is.

Excuse me, but you opened the debate by mentioning Greece, Rome and the US so don't come at me, look at your comment first. As I said, if not voted on by the people, then it is flawed.

rametindallas, on 26 Aug 2014 - 12:40, said:

MediaWatcher, on 26 Aug 2014 - 12:28, said:

rametindallas, on 26 Aug 2014 - 11:45, said:rametindallas, on 26 Aug 2014 - 11:45, said:

The last thing Thailand needs is 'Democracy'. If destroyed ancient Greece and eventually destroyed Rome. What Thailand need is 'Rule of Law' and not rule by mob/majority that is Democracy. I live in a Republic which respects and assures personal rights by rule of law and not 'whim of politician'. Democracy is what allows Thai politicians to change their constitution at the drop of a hat to suit their current needs. Democracy is fed by populism where the dwindling number of 'haves' support an ever-growing number of 'have nots'. It is unsustainable.

For your edification: The American form of government.

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

Democracy does NOT allow the constitution to be changed, this is the failure, in the first place, to implement a secure constitution, take Australia, the constitution can NOT be changed without the consent of the people, this being in the form of a referendum, something very foreign to Thailand.

This is not a forum about Australia. Thailand's democracy DOES allow for changes in the constitution, piecemeal, as allowed very recently by a Supreme Court decision. Watch the video and then comment on what a democracy is.

Excuse me, but you opened the debate by mentioning Greece, Rome and the US so don't come at me, look at your comment first. As I said, if not voted on by the people, then it is flawed.

Excuse me, but you argued that the democracy of Australia and Thailand were equivalent and if not, you were off topic/wrong forum. My use of Greece, Rome, and the US was to bolster my contention that Thailand would be better off without democracy (the OP, remember?), especially in the way they have turned democracy into a populist driven, mob-rule, winner-take-all proposition. But of course, as the video illustrated (if you even watched it), that is why all democracies are doomed to failure. When the majority realize they can vote largess for themselves from the state coffers, bankruptcy is just a matter of time. The Democratic Party in the US is doing a great job destroying the once great/wealthy Republic and replacing it with a Welfare State filled with helpless people dependent on the government and who are no better off than slaves depending on a benevolent 'master'.

Edited August 26, 201411 yr by rametindallas

Before Democracy can work a strong foundation must be put in place that supports all of the following, this must be completed by competent people qualified to do so with input from ordinary people considered - followed by a referendum to approve

- fair elections free from vote buying - intimidation - unworkable populist policies

- Candidates must also be capable of doing the job and free from criminal convictions

- checks and balances system must be put in place with serious penalties if caught braking them

- agencies must have the power and budget to pursue those in office breaking the law, no more immunity while in office

- The constitution can only be amended with either a referendum or at least a 2/3 majority in the house (lower and upper) for individual amendments - very important

- Independent agencies to investigate and convict those committing corruption with severe penalties

- Those convicted while in office banned for life from politics

- Budget transparency

This would get things started

It is my hope that the present government will remove as many blockades as possible to achieve those goals when they turn it over to the citizens for an election. I hesitate to call it a free election as there will still be unsavory people involved both here and living abroad.

What ever they do accomplish will be a giant stepping stone towards Democracy.

Let us remember in a true democracy the majority rules? That has not always been the case witness the last election 48% telling 52% what to do. The previous one had an even bigger divide. In the U S Gore got more votes than Bush yet Bush won is that democracy.

I know it is not Democracy but the people should be given the truth on what a party will do to improve Thailand if elected. Not popular policies designed to get them elected with no redeeming value to the Thai citizens. Also they should have a system where the uneducated can understand the promise and it's consequences.

"But, to their disappointment, the junta appointed the same old faces to oversee energy reform. This elite club has played a key and continuous role in managing energy policy over the years, no matter who is in government. In his weekly televised address Prime Minister Prayuth said activists who stage street rallies demanding energy reform know nothing about these issues but are instead spreading false information."

Demonstrators and voters know nothing about the issues. Leave it to the good men to make the right decisions and select proper management talent from the correct candidates within the elite circle. All voices opposing this are victims of false information. False information is a threat to national security and leads to divisiveness, confusion, disharmony and ultimately unhappiness.

That's some classic sarcasm there 96tehtarp.

Err...that is sarcasm, right?

This is not a forum about Australia. Thailand's democracy DOES allow for changes in the constitution, piecemeal, as allowed very recently by a Supreme Court decision. Watch the video and then comment on what a democracy is.

Therin lies the problem. Thailand would be a much more stable country if the constitution could only be changed by a referendum, and the military was not able to rip it up with impunity. Coup after coup, because the military are always immune from the consequences of whatever actions they take.

You seem to be 'conveniently' forgetting the last Thaksin Yingluck government wanting to change how Senators were selected, among other changes to the Constitution. Of course, you have been consistently one-sided in your posts.

BTW, if it weren't for the occasional coup, Thailand would have an oligarchy by now because the form of populist democracy they have been following is unsustainable. Thaksin would have been the equivalent of Cambodia's Hun Sen i.e. President for Life, if it hadn't been for a coup. (Not that that matters to you; who loves Thaksin more than Thai people)

And why wouldn't the Yingluck government not try changing the constitution considering they were backed by 300 seats in the lower house ?

I disagree about a referendum being needed to change the constitution, I do agree a 2/3 majority being needed to change it.

Of course the military doesn't need either one of them, they just do whatever they please !

rametindallas said

especially in the way they have turned democracy into a populist driven, mob-rule, winner-take-all proposition

That is the best description I have ever heard of Thailands past attempts at democracy - quote of the year for me

rametindallas:

Wrong wrong wrong again, for sake of argument you read things that simply are not there, there is nothing, in my comment, that would even insinuate that Thailand and Australia's constitutions are/were the same, although if Thailand followed Australia's constitution it may be better off,. You seem to be anti-democracy, democracy may not be perfect but it is the best model, for government, we have... maybe you can suggest something better. Given since 1932 Thailand has had 19 coups, 12 successful, and almost 50% of the time been under a military government, then many would consider it an oligarchy.

"But, to their disappointment, the junta appointed the same old faces to oversee energy reform. This elite club has played a key and continuous role in managing energy policy over the years, no matter who is in government. In his weekly televised address Prime Minister Prayuth said activists who stage street rallies demanding energy reform know nothing about these issues but are instead spreading false information."

Demonstrators and voters know nothing about the issues. Leave it to the good men to make the right decisions and select proper management talent from the correct candidates within the elite circle. All voices opposing this are victims of false information. False information is a threat to national security and leads to divisiveness, confusion, disharmony and ultimately unhappiness.

That's some classic sarcasm there 96tehtarp.

Err...that is sarcasm, right?

We are still under martial law, right?

I fully support the NCPO and their edicts, proclamations, and anything else they do. Resistance is futile and illegal. They've said so repeatedly. Everyone is happy now, myself included. My favorite color is green, ask anyone.

Where goes the economy goes Mr Prayuth.

Where goes the economy goes Mr Prayuth.

Never have truer words been said.

If people have money in their pockets they will tolerate much.

Empty pockets and it's an entirely different story.

Expect an awful lot of government spending on major projects to inject capital into the economy.

How much debt can the nation take on?

The Junta has mounted a tiger - the longer it stays on, the more difficult the dismount

The Junta does not understand democracy, nor the reds or blacks or yellows or rice farmers or rubber tree farmers or thai visa members.

The only one qualified would be me.

As of now, I impose all democratic discussion must be approved by myself.

*******This was a democratically elected policy voted in by the only capable democracy expert.******