1400 children sexually exploited in UK town Rotherham: report

[JockPieandBeans]

These despicable men were opportunists; they took advantage of vulnerable girls who were in the wrong places at the wrong times; usually late at night.

Once again. I know it is difficult for you to understand.

Systematic abuse over a period of years, in which there is a CONSERVATIVE estimate of 1400 victims. In no way can be described as opportunist.

I suggest you look up the definition of " Opportunist "

[JockPieandBeans]

7x7

The Forced Marriage Unit handled 1,485 cases last year, 35 per cent of them involving teenagers aged 17 or younger. One of its biggest problems is trying to track down people who travel to South Asia and never return.

Mr Afzal says a British government survey of school pupils highlighted the problem.

"They discovered hundreds and hundreds of young girls, and by that I mean 11, 12, 13-year-olds, who would just disappear off the school rolls."

While it is illegal in the United Kingdom for anyone to marry under the age of 16, marriages involving children still happen in South Asia and the Middle East.

Sometimes girls do not return to Britain until they are pregnant, the theory being that this may assist the process by which the husband seeks residency in the United Kingdom.

"There are probably between 8,000 to 10,000 forced marriages or threats of forced marriages in the United Kingdom every year," Mr Afzal says.

"We prosecuted more than 200 cases last year of honour-based violence. What we have here are crimes in the name of the father, the son and the blessed male members of the family."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-12/foreign-correspondent-honour-killings/5082946

i am sure you will have a damn good excuse for it.

[jacky54]

So, at the very least she must have been 12, though probably older, when married and possibly much older when the marriage was consummated.

12, or even younger, was a common age for marriage at the time, both in the Arab world and Christian Europe.

For example, Henry VII of England was born at Pembroke Castle on 28 January 1457 to the 13-year-old Margaret Beaufort, Countess of Richmond.

The age of consent in England and Wales was raised from 12 to 13 in 1875 and from 13 to 16 in 1885.

As said above; in Spain it is still only 13!

Pathetic attempts do deny and rope in other countries and people. But you can't find anyone or anywhere that involves another child married at 6 (it's in more than one hadith) and who was raped at nine, so you have to deny backed up by apologist drivel. Almost all Muslims believe she was married at 6 and raped at nine. But lets have it your way, lets say these criminal Islamic rapists in Rotherham do not believe Islamic scripture and thought that Mohamed married Aisha when she was 12 or so, mm that's just about the age of a lot of the girls they raped!

[H1w4yR1da]

Pathetic attempts do deny and rope in other countries and people. But you can't find anyone or anywhere that involves another child married at 6 (it's in more than one hadith) and who was raped at nine, so you have to deny backed up by apologist drivel. Almost all Muslims believe she was married at 6 and raped at nine. But lets have it your way, lets say these criminal Islamic rapists in Rotherham do not believe Islamic scripture and thought that Mohamed married Aisha when she was 12 or so, mm that's just about the age of a lot of the girls they raped!

Yeah that's such a coincidence, isn't it?

I reckon their race and religion played a huge part in their crimes. Those two are the common denominator these criminals have.

I wonder why other established immigrant communities such as the huge Indian community or the East Asians (Chinese, Vietnamese etc.) don't have a problem with grooming gangs. I wonder why?

Could it be it's because they're not Islamic? Hmmm, let me think.

[Jay Sata]

I prefer to quote the judge who sent these animals down.

Judge Clifton told the convicted gang members: "All of you treated your victims as though they were worthless and beyond any respect they were not part of your community or religion"

Make of that what you want.

In my opinion and that of the average newspaper editor in the UK there has been a systematic abuse of young vulnerable white girls by members of the Asian Muslim community.

In the cases that have so far come to court there is a pattern.

The group abusers have been Muslim and the girls are not.

Unlike other sex crimes the cases we are discussing have involved group abuse.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Jay Sata

[NeverSure]

I prefer to quote the judge who sent these animals down.

Judge Clifton told the convicted gang members: "All of you treated your victims as though they were worthless and beyond any respect they were not part of your community or religion"

Make of that what you want.

In my opinion and that of the average newspaper editor in the UK there has been a systematic abuse of young vulnerable white girls by members of the Asian Muslim community.

In the cases that have so far come to court there is a pattern.

The group abusers have been Muslim and the girls are not.

Unlike other sex crimes the cases we are discussing have involved group abuse.

"Animals" is right.

[simple1]

I prefer to quote the judge who sent these animals down.

Judge Clifton told the convicted gang members: "All of you treated your victims as though they were worthless and beyond any respect they were not part of your community or religion"

Make of that what you want.

In my opinion and that of the average newspaper editor in the UK there has been a systematic abuse of young vulnerable white girls by members of the Asian Muslim community.

In the cases that have so far come to court there is a pattern.

The group abusers have been Muslim and the girls are not.

Unlike other sex crimes the cases we are discussing have involved group abuse.

As previously posted ( see below) there has also been systematic abuse by non Muslim gangs, yet not one reference to this issue by those condemning the gangs from a Muslim heritage. Anyone trying to widen the debate on sexual abuse in the UK, is always accused of being an apologist. It is widely acknowledged that the use of the word 'apologist' is an endeavour to stifle debate.

52 groups where ethnicity data was provided, 26 (50 per cent) comprised all Asian offenders, 11 (21 per cent) were all white, 9 (17 per cent) groups had offenders from multiple ethnicities, 4 (8 per cent) were all black offenders and there were 2 (4 per cent) exclusively Arab groups.

http://blogs.channel...ing-gangs/18739

Why is it that causes, other than the criminal offenders from a Muslim background, such as disfunctional families, socio economic factors, widespread drug and alcohol abuse, under age youths being paid prostitues etc - all indicators of a malise within UK society - are not being discussed in this topic?

Edited December 6, 2014 by simple1

[nontabury]

I prefer to quote the judge who sent these animals down.

Judge Clifton told the convicted gang members: "All of you treated your victims as though they were worthless and beyond any respect they were not part of your community or religion"

Make of that what you want.

In my opinion and that of the average newspaper editor in the UK there has been a systematic abuse of young vulnerable white girls by members of the Asian Muslim community.

In the cases that have so far come to court there is a pattern.

The group abusers have been Muslim and the girls are not.

Unlike other sex crimes the cases we are discussing have involved group abuse.

As previously posted ( see below) there has also been systematic abuse by non Muslim gangs, yet not one reference to this issue by those condemning the gangs from a Muslim heritage. Anyone trying to widen the debate on sexual abuse in the UK, is always accused of being an apologist. It is widely acknowledged that the use of the word 'apologist' is an endeavour to stifle debate.

52 groups where ethnicity data was provided, 26 (50 per cent) comprised all Asian offenders, 11 (21 per cent) were all white, 9 (17 per cent) groups had offenders from multiple ethnicities, 4 (8 per cent) were all black offenders and there were 2 (4 per cent) exclusively Arab groups.

http://blogs.channel...ing-gangs/18739

Why is it that causes, other than the criminal offenders from a Muslim background, such as disfunctional families, socio economic factors, widespread drug and alcohol abuse, under age youths being paid prostitues etc - all indicators of a malise within UK society - are not being discussed in this topic?

Re your last paragraph, "yes" these are also important factors, but what we are discussing here is the sexual explosion of children by Muslim men, who have, and probably still are,purposely targeting children of a different colour and religion. And in the meantime Apologist like you, are giving these racist animals the encouragement to continue. Shame on you.

[simple1]

I prefer to quote the judge who sent these animals down.

Judge Clifton told the convicted gang members: "All of you treated your victims as though they were worthless and beyond any respect they were not part of your community or religion"

Make of that what you want.

In my opinion and that of the average newspaper editor in the UK there has been a systematic abuse of young vulnerable white girls by members of the Asian Muslim community.

In the cases that have so far come to court there is a pattern.

The group abusers have been Muslim and the girls are not.

Unlike other sex crimes the cases we are discussing have involved group abuse.

As previously posted ( see below) there has also been systematic abuse by non Muslim gangs, yet not one reference to this issue by those condemning the gangs from a Muslim heritage. Anyone trying to widen the debate on sexual abuse in the UK, is always accused of being an apologist. It is widely acknowledged that the use of the word 'apologist' is an endeavour to stifle debate.

52 groups where ethnicity data was provided, 26 (50 per cent) comprised all Asian offenders, 11 (21 per cent) were all white, 9 (17 per cent) groups had offenders from multiple ethnicities, 4 (8 per cent) were all black offenders and there were 2 (4 per cent) exclusively Arab groups.

http://blogs.channel...ing-gangs/18739

Why is it that causes, other than the criminal offenders from a Muslim background, such as disfunctional families, socio economic factors, widespread drug and alcohol abuse, under age youths being paid prostitues etc - all indicators of a malise within UK society - are not being discussed in this topic?

in the meantime Apologist like you, are giving these racist animals the encouragement to continue. Shame on you.

In case you have overlooked forum rules personal attacks are not permitted. However a succinct reply to your comment; bullshit!

[JockPieandBeans]

52 groups where ethnicity data was provided, 26 (50 per cent) comprised all Asian offenders, 11 (21 per cent) were all white, 9 (17 per cent) groups had offenders from multiple ethnicities, 4 (8 per cent) were all black offenders and there were 2 (4 per cent) exclusively Arab groups.

26 (50 per cent) comprised all Asian offenders,

11 (21 per cent) were all white

50% committed by approx 12% of the population.

Try again telling me how it is nothing to do with race or religion.

[jacky54]

in the meantime Apologist like you, are giving these racist animals the encouragement to continue. Shame on you.

In case you have overlooked forum rules personal attacks are not permitted. However a succinct reply to your comment; bullshit!

Hardly a personal attack, unless stating the truth is. It is the apologists that are almost as guilty as the criminals for ignoring and excusing this abuse for so long, they just cannot accept the reasons behind it and so could not do anything to stop it. Continuing to finger point elsewhere and to be blind to the influences of their religion only helps to perpetuate these crimes.

[simple1]

52 groups where ethnicity data was provided, 26 (50 per cent) comprised all Asian offenders, 11 (21 per cent) were all white, 9 (17 per cent) groups had offenders from multiple ethnicities, 4 (8 per cent) were all black offenders and there were 2 (4 per cent) exclusively Arab groups.

26 (50 per cent) comprised all Asian offenders,

11 (21 per cent) were all white

50% committed by approx 12% of the population.

Try again telling me how it is nothing to do with race or religion.

Yes, from the government provided stats on convictions of the grooming / sexual abuse gangs targeting the young, are in the majority from a Muslim heritage.

The question I am asking is why were these young girls and boys (in one case one offender had sexually assaulted 70 boys) so vunerable to abuse; what were the contributing factors? Sure failure of duty of care by a number of government agencies was a real issue, but what about their own social / family environment. There appears to have been a breakdown in the social / family fabric of many in the non Muslim community in the areas where the offences occured e.g. many children in care; why?

Edited December 7, 2014 by simple1

[Morch]

Quotes of previous posts removed to comply with forum software.

The link you (7by7) quoted cites 43% of the abusers were white. Given overall demographics doesn't it raise a question regading

them 57% of the offenders which are, apparently, over represented in relation to their actual numbers in the population?

As said earlier; a lot of it comes down to opportunity.

Asian men are overrepresented in the sort of occupations which make targeting these girls easier; taxi drivers, takeaways etc.

As shown, white grooming gangs do exist; but white paedophiles are more likely to be acting as individuals, in small groups, such as Saville and his recently convicted mate, or all in one place such as the Catholic children's home scandal.

When the perpetrators are Asian, particularly when they are Muslim, the media emphasise their race and religion; which they don't do when the perpetrators of this most vile crime are white.

Why the media focus on race in the ‘child grooming’ trial?

The Daily Mail, The Daily Telegraph and at times even The Times have placed a lot of emphasis on the races of the people involved without offering wider context. The GMP Assistant Chief Constable said today:

It is not a racial issue. This is about adults preying on vulnerable young children. It just happens that in this particular area and time the demographics were that these were Asian men.

However, in large parts of the country we are seeing on-street grooming, child sexual exploitation happening in each of our towns and it isn’t about a race issue. The street grooming issue is about vulnerability and who has access to that vulnerability.

This is exactly right. These heinous men found it easier to prey on young white girls, but don’t think for a second that they would not do the same to Asian girls. Tales of rape, sexual exploitation and trafficking are rife across the Indian sub-continent.

The idea that they avoided Asian girls because somehow they have more respect for them is utter rubbish; they have no respect for any women of any race

On the same note, wondering how does 28% of the victims being of ethnic minority groups seats with overall demographics.

It shows that they are over represented.

From the 2011 census, 87.27% of the UK population is white, 12.73% Asian, black, etc. (source)

So if, as claimed by some, Asian, Muslim paedophiles only target white girls, who is responsible for the abuse of the 28% of victims who are non white?

So, if I am getting it correctly, the claim is that this is more to do with occupational and economic factors rather than ethnicity or with religions. That Asians (whatever that actually means, sort of doubt we're talking about Japanese offenders here, but that's PC for you) are basically not different than other immigrant minorities in the UK or elsewhere.

Well, if that is the case - ought to be easy enough to support such a proposition by comparing similar groups and their relative share in such criminal activities.

That there is an opportunistic element involved is one thing, still not convinced that it fully explains away the overwhelming representation of certain ethnic backgrounds among offenders. Also, could be my lacking imagination - not exactly seeing takeaway employees as being placed in a particularity opportunistic position here....

Not being one claiming that Asian, Muslim pedophiles only target white girls, I would probably guess that non-white victims fall prey to them as well. Especially If the reasoning above (regarding occupational/economic factors) is upheld.

[Morch]

Most sex offenders are opportunists and they prey on those that are vulnerable..........

When I made this point

These despicable men were opportunists; they took advantage of vulnerable girls who were in the wrong places at the wrong times; usually late at night.

I was subject to abuse and accusations of being an apologist for paedophiles!

Will those who did so react to Scott's statement in the same way?

I am really not too fussed by what I get called, although this thread isn't about me (or you) for that matter. In my previous life, I spent years working with sexually abused children and with sex offenders, including those in a prison setting. They ran the gamit from voyeurs to those that had raped and killed their victims.

I've seen offenders who targeted their victims by age, and for those who have sex with young children, the age can be quite specific -- for example they might like 9 year olds, but not 8 year old or 10 year olds. I have seen children targeted because of race -- but these were usually minority children and they were from the most vulnerable sector of the sub-culture.

I have not kept up closely with this situation, but I would hazard a guess that the children targeted were from vulnerable backgrounds, such as single parent families, living in institutions, having legal problems including drug and alcohol abuse. Some of the perpetrators may well have preferred 'white' girls, but that is a racial preference, not a religious one.

I've never seen any group of offenders that targeted on the basis of religion. Did these children have to fill out an application and answer a question about what religion they were? Or, were most of them members of the majority population and happen to be non-Muslim? How many Muslim children are in care in those areas?

If I am not mistaken you are referring to the USA, rather than the UK.

Is the USA seeing the same kind of communal issues with similar undertones of religious conflict? Or to put in another way,

how central is the religious aspect to people's perception of other groups in society?

[Morch]

I prefer to quote the judge who sent these animals down.

Judge Clifton told the convicted gang members: "All of you treated your victims as though they were worthless and beyond any respect they were not part of your community or religion"

Make of that what you want.

In my opinion and that of the average newspaper editor in the UK there has been a systematic abuse of young vulnerable white girls by members of the Asian Muslim community.

In the cases that have so far come to court there is a pattern.

The group abusers have been Muslim and the girls are not.

Unlike other sex crimes the cases we are discussing have involved group abuse.

As previously posted ( see below) there has also been systematic abuse by non Muslim gangs, yet not one reference to this issue by those condemning the gangs from a Muslim heritage. Anyone trying to widen the debate on sexual abuse in the UK, is always accused of being an apologist. It is widely acknowledged that the use of the word 'apologist' is an endeavour to stifle debate.

52 groups where ethnicity data was provided, 26 (50 per cent) comprised all Asian offenders, 11 (21 per cent) were all white, 9 (17 per cent) groups had offenders from multiple ethnicities, 4 (8 per cent) were all black offenders and there were 2 (4 per cent) exclusively Arab groups.

http://blogs.channel...ing-gangs/18739

Why is it that causes, other than the criminal offenders from a Muslim background, such as disfunctional families, socio economic factors, widespread drug and alcohol abuse, under age youths being paid prostitues etc - all indicators of a malise within UK society - are not being discussed in this topic?

Not being an expert on whatever ails UK society, I would, however, make an observation.

Social issues within the UK may have their roots in various causes and processes having little do do with immigration, Islam and other outside influences. Country seemed to be managing doing badly enough without external factors facilitating these trends.

Adding unchecked immigration to the mix probably did not improve things, and most likely burdened the system with extra issues to deal with, while making existing issues harder to tackle.

In reference to the topic at hand, it is hardly the case that "Asians", Muslims, or whichever group got a monopoly on child

abuse, pedophilia and rape. Obviously, these things were around before immigration became an issue (can argue regarding extent vs. extent of media coverage). That said, considering the prevalence of such crimes, cultural and public attitudes in some of the relevant countries of origin, the over-representation of some groups relative to their numbers in population, may not be entirely a surprise. Should probably add prevalent attitudes toward the law and law enforcement as well.

[7by7]

These despicable men were opportunists; they took advantage of vulnerable girls who were in the wrong places at the wrong times; usually late at night.

Once again. I know it is difficult for you to understand.

Systematic abuse over a period of years, in which there is a CONSERVATIVE estimate of 1400 victims. In no way can be described as opportunist.

I suggest you look up the definition of " Opportunist "

It is you who needs to learn how to use an English dictionary! Maybe you have trouble with polysyllables (that means long words)?

Oxford Dictionaries:

opportunity

A time or set of circumstances that makes it possible to do something:

opportunist

A person who takes advantage of opportunities as and when they arise, regardless of planning or principle:

opportunism

The taking of opportunities as and when they arise, regardless of planning or principle:

opportunistic

Exploiting immediate opportunities, especially regardless of planning or principle:

The common factor in these cases is that the men worked in occupations (that means jobs) where young, vulnerable people, especially those in care, tended to gather; taxi offices, takeaways etc.

I am not saying that these men would not have gone looking elsewhere had the opportunity not presented itself in this way; of course they would. But it is certainly possible that they would have found and so abused far fewer victims.

I am also not blaming the victims; they are the innocents here. The men who groomed them and abused them are the ones to blame; but those who were responsible for the care of these children, whether it be social services or their parents, failed woefully in that care.

[7by7]

Why is it that causes, other than the criminal offenders from a Muslim background, such as disfunctional families, socio economic factors, widespread drug and alcohol abuse, under age youths being paid prostitues etc - all indicators of a malise within UK society - are not being discussed in this topic?

Re your last paragraph, "yes" these are also important factors, but what we are discussing here is the sexual explosion of children by Muslim men, who have, and probably still are,purposely targeting children of a different colour and religion. And in the meantime Apologist like you, are giving these racist animals the encouragement to continue. Shame on you.

What the rational members here are trying to discuss is child abuse; the causes of same and how to prevent it.

That idiots and bigots want to concentrate on the ethnicity and religious background of some offenders whilst dismissing that of others because it doesn't fit their bigoted agenda is not going to help the future victims of this crime.

Suggesting that mosques are in some way teaching Muslim men how to entrap and groom vulnerable young girls, rather than looking for the real causes, is not going to help reduce this terrible crime.

Neither is throwing childish insults at the rational.

hopefully the relevant authorities have learned from past mistakes, and as well as rejecting the PC brigade are also rejecting the moronic ideas of those whose aim is not to protect children, but to demonise Muslims.

[7by7]

......Asians (whatever that actually means, sort of doubt we're talking about Japanese offenders here, but that's PC for you)......

Your not British, then?

In the UK 'Asian' refers to people from South Asia; that is Bangladesh, India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

Nothing to do with political correctness, just the way it's always been.

Probably because until the middle 20th century most people from Asia visiting or living in the UK were either Chinese, who were and still are called Chinese, or from what was at the time the Indian Empire.

[7by7]

Pathetic attempts do deny and rope in other countries and people. But you can't find anyone or anywhere that involves another child married at 6 (it's in more than one hadith) and who was raped at nine, so you have to deny backed up by apologist drivel. Almost all Muslims believe she was married at 6 and raped at nine. But lets have it your way, lets say these criminal Islamic rapists in Rotherham do not believe Islamic scripture and thought that Mohamed married Aisha when she was 12 or so, mm that's just about the age of a lot of the girls they raped!

Yeah that's such a coincidence, isn't it?

I reckon their race and religion played a huge part in their crimes. Those two are the common denominator these criminals have.

I wonder why other established immigrant communities such as the huge Indian community or the East Asians (Chinese, Vietnamese etc.) don't have a problem with grooming gangs. I wonder why?

Could it be it's because they're not Islamic? Hmmm, let me think.

Maybe people should read links before they comment on them.

The hadiths are commentaries and not considered by Muslims to be the word of God. So a Muslim cannot use the hadiths to justify child abuse.

That the relevant hadiths, written well after her death, get her age wrong has been proven by historical records time and time again.

But no doubt you two, and others, will, as ever, ignore facts in favour of bigotry.

These men are Muslims of Pakistani origin and so you and others continue to say this is the sole reason they committed their crimes.

Though JPB has backed down, lost the courage of his convictions and now tries to deny that he said any such thing.

Yet none of you has answered the basic point that sex outside of marriage in Pakistan is illegal, and the minimum legal age for marriage in Pakistan is 18!

You also ignore the fact that sex outside of marriage is against the principles of Islam.

These men were acting against both their cultural and religious heritage!

As previously shown, from both the enquiry and newspaper reports at the time, they targeted and raped Asian girls, too. That the majority of their victims were white is purely down to opportunity (those who have difficulty understanding that word should see my earlier post).

White girls are more likely to be in care than Asian ones.

White girls are more likely to be from broken homes than Asian ones.

White girls are more likely to be in the wrong places at the wrong times than Asian ones.

Edited December 7, 2014 by 7by7

[jacky54]

These men are Muslims of Pakistani origin and so you and others continue to say this is the sole reason they committed their crimes.

No I don't, there are Pakistani Christians that do not go in for child rape and torture. It's NOT the ethnicity, it's the RELIGION

[Morch]

......Asians (whatever that actually means, sort of doubt we're talking about Japanese offenders here, but that's PC for you)......

Your not British, then?

In the UK 'Asian' refers to people from South Asia; that is Bangladesh, India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

Nothing to do with political correctness, just the way it's always been.

Probably because until the middle 20th century most people from Asia visiting or living in the UK were either Chinese, who were and still are called Chinese, or from what was at the time the Indian Empire.

Fair enough, and thanks for the explanation. Well, what are other Asians called, then? (as a group, if there is indeed such a separate term).

Reading some of the linked material, I get the impression not all Asians are very happy about being lumped together.

[Jay Sata]

For those not familiar with the UK, Asian is used as a generic term to describe people from the Indian sub continent.

The BBC have a national radio station called the Asian Network. This carries programming

aimed at people from or with an interest in the sub con. It does not broadcast or cater for those from China or South East Asia.

Reference to the 'Asian community' is therefore describing those with roots in India,Pakistan and Bangladesh.

The culprits in these so called gangs were almost 100% Pakistani or Bangladeshi and Muslim.

That was the point being made by the judge in his summing up.

In Rotherham and elsewhere social services,the police and local councillors all colluded to try and hide these hideous crimes.

There is also a political slant to this in the way that the majority of the social workers in the UK are recruited via left wing publications such as the Guardian. In all the cities where this sort of crime has been carried out the local authorities are Labour run.

The UK saw a massive rise in uncontrolled immigration from India,Pakistan and Bangladesh under Blair and Brown which has created towns like Luton,Rochdale and Rotherham where a substantial proportion of these migrants settled.

Sadly large numbers have failed to integrate and indeed want to impose their own beliefs and laws on the UK.

Aside of the issues being discussed re the grooming gangs the same locations are also breeding a substantial number of home grown terrorists. The majority are of Pakistani or Bangladesh descent.

I find it a tragedy that our soldiers and members of the military are now being advised by their superiors to not wear the Queens uniform in public.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

These men are Muslims of Pakistani origin and so you and others continue to say this is the sole reason they committed their crimes.

No I don't, there are Pakistani Christians that do not go in for child rape and torture. It's NOT the ethnicity, it's the RELIGION

No, it is not their religion; men, and women, of all races and all religions commit this horrendous crime!

It's their perversion that makes them do is; nothing else.

[7by7]

I find it a tragedy that our soldiers and members of the military are now being advised by their superiors to not wear the Queens uniform in public.

'Our' soldiers?

Yes, it is a tragedy that the current level of security alert has led to this advice.

But it has been thus before.

Have you forgotten, or do you choose to ignore, the fact that many British soldiers, and British civilians including children, were murdered by your fellow Irishmen?

But I no more blame you nor the majority of Irish for the activities of both Republican and Loyalist terrorists than I blame the majority of Muslims for the activities of these child abusers or the jihadists.

That is the difference between a rational person and a bigot.

[jacky54]

These men are Muslims of Pakistani origin and so you and others continue to say this is the sole reason they committed their crimes.

No I don't, there are Pakistani Christians that do not go in for child rape and torture. It's NOT the ethnicity, it's the RELIGION

No, it is not their religion; men, and women, of all races and all religions commit this horrendous crime!

It's their perversion that makes them do is; nothing else.

You should maybe have a word with the Police in Rotherham and tell them about all these other men and women committing rape there that are not Muslim men. Yes they are perverts and they get their motivation from the perverted life of the Prophet and the many suras in the koran that denigrate women, especially non believers.

[JockPieandBeans]

The question I am asking is why were these young girls and boys (in one case one offender had sexually assaulted 70 boys) so vunerable to abuse; what were the contributing factors? Sure failure of duty of care by a number of government agencies was a real issue, but what about their own social / family environment. There appears to have been a breakdown in the social / family fabric of many in the non Muslim community in the areas where the offences occured e.g. many children in care; why?

I have already answered that on this thread.

From the Early 80's a segment of society were popping out brats to increase their benefits and move into larger social housing.

These are the kids and in a lot of cases, the grandkids of that of that society.

They were produced, not for love, merely as a means to get more benefits.

However, that will never excuse what has happened to them.

[JockPieandBeans]

As previously posted ( see below) there has also been systematic abuse by non Muslim gangs, yet not one reference to this issue by those condemning the gangs from a Muslim heritage. Anyone trying to widen the debate on sexual abuse in the UK, is always accused of being an apologist. It is widely acknowledged that the use of the word 'apologist' is an endeavour to stifle debate.

52 groups where ethnicity data was provided, 26 (50 per cent) comprised all Asian offenders, 11 (21 per cent) were all white, 9 (17 per cent) groups had offenders from multiple ethnicities, 4 (8 per cent) were all black offenders and there were 2 (4 per cent) exclusively Arab groups.

Simple 1

I had another think about the groups that you highlighted.

I dont know if this is the case, as it has not been broken down. Going on the stats that have been provided.

50% Asian offenders. It would be interesting to know how much of that % is Muslim.

21% were White. There are white Muslims in the UK. I wonder what %, if any, were Muslim ?

17% were Mixed. What % of this group, if any, were Muslim ?

8% were Black. There are Black Muslims in the UK. What % of this group, if any, were Muslim ?

4% were Arabs. Were they all Muslim ?

Where the figure for Asians is truly shocking. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that a far higher % of these atrocities were committed by Muslims. I am not saying that is the case. However, it could also be a distinct possibility.

[JockPieandBeans]

Though JPB has backed down, lost the courage of his convictions and now tries to deny that he said any such thing.

Yet none of you has answered the basic point that sex outside of marriage in Pakistan is illegal, and the minimum legal age for marriage in Pakistan is 18!

You think I have backed down ?

Yeah right.

Did you ignore this on purpose ?

The Forced Marriage Unit handled 1,485 cases last year, 35 per cent of them involving teenagers aged 17 or younger. One of its biggest problems is trying to track down people who travel to South Asia and never return.

Mr Afzal says a British government survey of school pupils highlighted the problem.

"They discovered hundreds and hundreds of young girls, and by that I mean 11, 12, 13-year-olds, who would just disappear off the school rolls."

While it is illegal in the United Kingdom for anyone to marry under the age of 16, marriages involving children still happen in South Asia and the Middle East.

Sometimes girls do not return to Britain until they are pregnant, the theory being that this may assist the process by which the husband seeks residency in the United Kingdom.

"There are probably between 8,000 to 10,000 forced marriages or threats of forced marriages in the United Kingdom every year," Mr Afzal says.

"We prosecuted more than 200 cases last year of honour-based violence. What we have here are crimes in the name of the father, the son and the blessed male members of the family."

I have highlighted the guys name for you.

http://www.abc.net.a...illings/5082946

What the legal age might be, and what happens in the back of beyond are 2 different things. Something that you seem unable to comprehend.

Just so that there is no mistaking what I said.

The atrocity of Rotherham was carried out by Muslims of Pakistani Origin.

Not by Christians of Pakistani Origin.

Not by Jews of Pakistani Origin.

Not by Athiests of Pakistani Origin.

Not by Hindu's of Pakistani Origin.

Not by Sikh's of Pakistani Origin.

Keep on denying, deflecting and Ignoring.

Just seen this on another thread.

Such patriotism!

When you have served 22 years for Queen and Country, you can comment on my patriotism, Until that time, dont even go there. I have previously invited you to put your money where your mouth is. Sadly, you bottled it.

Edited December 7, 2014 by JockPieandBeans

[7by7]

Some quotes removed to comply with forum software.

.....it is not their religion; men, and women, of all races and all religions commit this horrendous crime!

It's their perversion that makes them do is; nothing else.

You should maybe have a word with the Police in Rotherham and tell them about all these other men and women committing rape there that are not Muslim men. Yes they are perverts and they get their motivation from the perverted life of the Prophet and the many suras in the koran that denigrate women, especially non believers.

I do not need to inform the police in Rotherham or anywhere else; the facts are well known and drawn from convictions; as the links provided by myself and others show.

The Koran and suras do reflect the time in which they were written; a time when women were considered inferior to men in many, if not all, parts of the world. Certainly the case in Christendom; backed up by the New Testament.

“A man has no need to cover his head, because he reflects the image and glory of God. But woman reflects the glory of man; for man was not created from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for woman’s sake, but woman was created for man’s sake.” (1 Corinthians 11:7-9)

“It is a disgraceful thing for a woman to speak in Church.” (1 Corinthians 14:35)

“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For a husband has authority over his wife just as Christ has authority over the Church.” (Ephesians 5:22-23)

“Women should learn in silence and all humility. I do not allow them to teach or to have authority over men; they must keep quiet.” (1 Timothy 2:11-12)

Some fundamental Christians still adhere to this belief, and not so fundamental ones, too. Witness the recent fuss over the Church of England's decision to allow women bishops.

Many Muslims also still consider women to be inferior; but this is due more to long standing cultural practices rather than Islam. As The Quran makes it clear that Women and Men are equal in the eyes of God concludes

Thus we see that God makes it clear that men and women are equal. He directly tells us in verses, He shows us in examples from the Quran of His prophet, and He counteracts the cultural bias of language and tradition. For those who read the Quran there is no excuse—men and women are equal.

I've already linked to and quoted from Rejecting the Myth of Sanctioned Child Marriage in Islam; here's another article for you to consider.

Nowhere does the Quran condone child brides

Of course, child marriage is not peculiar to Islam. It remains painfully common in India and South Africa. Even Australia has more than 3000 underage teens in marriages or de facto relationships.

What makes child marriage so hard to eradicate in the Muslim world is that its supporters claim it is their divinely mandated right to marry young girls because they are following in the footsteps of the prophet.......

The controversy over Aisha's age comes from the Hadiths (stories about the prophet) compiled by Imam Bukhari in the 9th century (note from 7by7; 200 years later), in which he writes:

“It is reported from Aisha that she said: The Prophet entered into marriage with me when I was a girl of six . . . and at the time [of joining his household] I was a girl of nine years of age.”

But – and the fate of so many child brides hinges on this "but" – what many non-Muslims don't know and what many Muslims ignore is that the authenticity of this Hadith has been thrown into doubt by subsequent Muslim scholars, simply because so much other evidence we have about Aisha contradicts this account.

For starters, Bukhari himself also includes a Hadith in which Aisha recalls being a young girl and remembering when a particular sura (Koranic verse) "Al-Qamar" was revealed. That sura came to Mohammed in 613, nine years before her wedding. As the Muslim writer and broadcaster Dr David Liepert writes: “Obviously, both Hadiths can't be true, and that's the problem with relying too much on Hadiths, and too little on the Koran and common sense.”......

With so much distance between Aisha's time and ours, we cannot know for certain her exact age. But with considerable evidence casting doubt on her been a child of nine, it all comes back to the Koran. And nowhere does the Koran sanction child marriage.

According to this report, the five countries with the highest rates of child sexual abuse are, in descending order,

1. South Africa
2. India
3. Zimbabwe
4. United Kingdom
5. United states.

Are you trying to have us believe that all, or even the majority, of offenders in those countries were Muslim?

[7by7]

JPB, you contradict yourself so often with your back peddling and first denying and then restating what you said previously that it is no longer worth the effort of responding to you on what you claim to believe in any particular post.

That you have included a heavily edited quote from a different topic to yet again make covert threats shows you up for what you are.

What I will say is this:-

All the evidence shows that men, and sometimes women, of all religions, or none, commit this horrible crime.

There is no evidence at all to show that any of the accused has ever used their religion, whether that be Islam, Catholicism, whatever, to justify or excuse their crime.

Child sexual abuse and child rape, whether committed by gangs or individuals, are terrible crimes abhorred by all decent people of all religions and none.

Edited December 7, 2014 by 7by7