Ukraine 'slipping out of control', Germany warns

[Lite Beer]

Ukraine 'slipping out of control', Germany warns

The crisis in eastern Ukraine is "slipping out of control" and needs to be reined in to avoid direct military confrontation between Ukraine and Russia, Germany has warned.

Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier spoke as the EU is poised to consider more sanctions on Russia.

Russia has denied claims by Nato that its forces illegally crossed into Ukraine to support separatists there.

Some 2,600 people have died in fighting between rebels and Ukrainian troops.

The conflict in Ukraine's eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk erupted in April following Russia's annexation of Ukraine's southern Crimea peninsula a month before.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has blamed Ukraine for the crisis, comparing its siege of the rebel-held cities of Donetsk and Luhansk to the siege of Leningrad by Nazi Germany in World War Two.

Read More: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28990428

-- BBC 2014-08-30

[mikehock]

I'm at a loss as to how Russian President Vladimir Putin can compare the siege of Leningrad by Nazi Germany to what is happening now in Eastern Ukraine.

The sovereign state of Ukraine has an internal problem whereby some of its citizens in the eastern part of the country are violently advocating independence. This is an internal affair and must be solved by the Ukrainian government.

Russian interference in the affairs the sovereign state of Ukraine with the takeover of Crimea is comparable to the actions of Nazi Germany annexation of Czechoslovakia in 1938.

It seems that the western world is making the same mistakes again... looking on and allowing Russian aggression against the sovereign state of Ukraine.

[lovetotravel]

Putin is stirring things up in Ukraine. It's an invasion. No way to describe it any other way. He took Crimea illegally and now want's more of Ukraine due to it's energy sources.

This mad man needs to be stopped before a full fledged world war starts again.

[Jingthing]

OK, this article might be a little over the top, but Putin IS on the march and the west is really not there to stop him. So the question now is how far does he go ...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/08/vladimir_putin_s_troops_have_invaded_ukraine_should_we_prepare_for_war_with.html

But Stalin kept to his word and carried out the threats, not because he was crazy but because he followed his own logic to its ultimate conclusions with such intense dedication—and because nobody stopped him. Right now, nobody is able to stop Putin, either. So is it hysterical to prepare for total war? Or is it naive not to do so?

[Asiantravel]

Putin is stirring things up in Ukraine. It's an invasion. No way to describe it any other way. He took Crimea illegally and now want's more of Ukraine due to it's energy sources.

This mad man needs to be stopped before a full fledged world war starts again.

" before a full fledged world war starts again. "

Well, at least you are being realistic enough to realise that is what is going to take if the the Mafia like European Union are determined to press ahead.

[Jdiddy]

Russia is in no shape to fight a world war, unless it goes nuclear, it is also pretty much strategically surrounded. China will not step in to help if it's a conventional war

[Asiantravel]

Russia is in no shape to fight a world war, unless it goes nuclear, it is also pretty much strategically surrounded. China will not step in to help if it's a conventional war

But its strategic ally Iran is quite capable of closing the Srait of Hormuz and starving the world of oil supplies from the Middle East.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/iran-to-close-strait-of-hormuz-if-its-security-is-threatened-warns-naval-chief-1.451011

Edited August 30, 2014 by Asiantravel

[lovetotravel]

Putin is stirring things up in Ukraine. It's an invasion. No way to describe it any other way. He took Crimea illegally and now want's more of Ukraine due to it's energy sources.

This mad man needs to be stopped before a full fledged world war starts again.

" before a full fledged world war starts again. "

Well, at least you are being realistic enough to realise that is what is going to take if the the Mafia like European Union are determined to press ahead.

Mafia like EU? You've got to be kidding me. You've lost the plot.

[Jingthing]

As Putin's controlled press tells it anyway ...

[Chonburiram]

...Sometimes it does feel like a new world war of some kind is brewing, doesn't it?

Sure,

and do you know, who we are going to blame for it ...?

[Jingthing]

...Sometimes it does feel like a new world war of some kind is brewing, doesn't it?

Sure,

and do you know, who we are going to blame for it ...?

Who is "we"?

[Chonburiram]

"We" = The surviving world war 3 human population.

[lovetotravel]

It seems "meddling" in Ukraine's politics is the norm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution

Former president Leonid Kravchuk accused Russian oligarch, Boris Berezovsky, of financing Yushchenko's campaign on 14 September 2005.^{[36][nb 3]} Yushchenko denied Berezovsky financed his election campaign.^[36] Financing of election campaigns by foreign citizens is illegal in Ukraine.^[37] At first Berezovsky refused to confirm or deny Kravchuk's allegations, but in November 2005 he did claim that indeed he had heavily financed the Orange Revolution.^{[38][nb 4]}

The election was marred by claims that "Western PR consultants had helped orchestrate this rebellion".^[41] On the other hand, Russia's involvement in the election was more direct and heavily on the side of Prime Minister Yanukovych. The extent of this involvement is still contested but some facts are indisputable such as multiple meetings between (hugely popular in Ukraine at the time^[2]) Russian president Vladimir Putin, Kuchma and Yanukovych before and during the elections. Putin repeatedly congratulated Yanukovych while the results were still contested, which was soon to embarrass both parties. Yanukovych received a much more preferential treatment in Russian media, and was surrounded by Russian consultants known to be close to the Kremlin throughout the election cycle.^[2]During the protests Russian media portrayed the Ukrainian protesters as irresponsible, led astray by Westernagents and Russian TV broadcast a pro-Yanukovych message.^[2][42][43] In a poll held in November 2005, 54% of the Russian respondents believed the Orange Revolution was "A power struggle between different groups of politicians and oligarchs".^[44]

Amazing at how some are quick to blame only the US. Seems blame lies on both sides. Perhaps more so for the Russians. Direct involvement has been proven.

[lovetotravel]

Worth reading also. Just to get your facts straight:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution

After a first revolution, namely the "Orange Revolution" in 2004, Ukraine had been mired by years of corruption, mismanagement, lack of economic growth, currency devaluation, and an inability to secure funding from public markets.^[25][26] Because of this, Yanukovych sought to establish closer relations with the European Union (EU) and Russia in order to attract the capital necessary to maintain Ukraine's standard of living without affecting the local population significantly.^[27] One of these measures was an association agreement with the European Union which would provide Ukraine with funds contingent to several reforms in almost all aspects of Ukrainian society and break its economic ties with Russia.^[28][29] Yanukovych, at first, considered the contingencies to be fair but ultimately refused to sign the agreement considering it too austere and detrimental to Ukraine.^[30] Besides that, EU demanded the release of Tymoshenko, who was in jail, as an incidental condition of association agreement with the European Union. Therefore, Yanukovych signed a treaty with Russia instead, which sparked civil unrest in Kiev that ultimately led to violent clashes between protestors and law enforcement officers under unclear circumstances.^[31] As tensions rose, Yanukovych fled the country and has not returned. Russia has accused the United States and the EU of funding and directing the revolution.^[32]

Russia is quick to blame others, but takes no responsibility for the damage it's done.

[MJP]

Of all the news reports coming out of Ukraine I've yet to see an ugly woman.

Edited August 31, 2014 by MJP

[Asiantravel]

Poroshenko, who warned that a failure of attempts in coming days to end fighting with Russian troops and rebels in the east could lead to "full-scale war", said EU leaders had agreed that new sanctions would be conditional on his peace plan working.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/30/us-eu-summit-idUSKBN0GU0C220140830

[konying]

Germany has been speaking with Russia on daily basis .

Germany is the only one with level head.

Germany is in no denial on who runs Ukraine and what to expect .

Russia's support for the rebels is no different than US support for the rebels in Syria or even Iraq .

Even accepting US propaganda that Russia sent troops in Ukraine , it is again no different to US bombing in Iraq .

[lovetotravel]

Germany has been speaking with Russia on daily basis .

Germany is the only one with level head.

Germany is in no denial on who runs Ukraine and what to expect .

Russia's support for the rebels is no different than US support for the rebels in Syria or even Iraq .

Even accepting US propaganda that Russia sent troops in Ukraine , it is again no different to US bombing in Iraq .

Propaganda that Russia has troops in Ukraine? Sorry, but it's a fact and not propaganda. Unless you only read Russian news sources.

What's happening in Syria is vastly different to what's happening in Ukraine. You are comparing apples and oranges. And let's not forget Russia is up to their eyeballs in Syria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia's_role_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

Since the Syrian civil war began in 2011 between President Bashar al-Assad's government and thousands of demonstrators, Russia has played a strategic role in the unfolding of the crisis on the world stage.

.......

Russia has been shipping large amounts of weapons to Bashar al-Assad, with one ship loaded with "dangerous cargo" notably having to stop in Cyprus due to stormy weather on 10 January 2012.^[35] Russia's current contracts with Syria for arms are estimated to be worth 1.5 billion US dollars, comprising 10% of Russia's global arms sales.^[35]

[Asiantravel]

Germany has been speaking with Russia on daily basis .

Germany is the only one with level head.

Germany is in no denial on who runs Ukraine and what to expect .

Russia's support for the rebels is no different than US support for the rebels in Syria or even Iraq .

Even accepting US propaganda that Russia sent troops in Ukraine , it is again no different to US bombing in Iraq .

I hope you end up being right konying

But in the latest edition of UK Financial Times the headline is “ Nato states create new multilateral force “ .

The FT says NATO is working towards the creation of an expeditionary force composed of 10,000 troops from seven different member states as a result of escalating tensions with Russia over the conflict in Ukraine.The force’s creation will be spearheaded by Britain ( here we go again " WMD's " ) and involve contributions from Denmark, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Norway, and the Netherlands. Canada is also interested in joining the group, but it’s not known what its final decision will be.

So we are getting closer and closer to having both sides with “ boots on the ground "

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/5335d904-2f98-11e4-87d9-00144feabdc0,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F5335d904-2f98-11e4-87d9-00144feabdc0.html%3Fsiteedition%3Dintl&siteedition=intl&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fhome%2Fasia#axzz3BvrOgErl

Edited August 31, 2014 by Asiantravel

[konying]

Lovetotravel,

It is no different, it's just dressed up differently.

US bombed Isis in Iraq on what basis ? To help surrounded towns?

How would Russia bombing Ukrainian army be different? East is surrounded, no water or food or any basic supplies.

Ukraine shells civilians .

There is no evidence at all of Russia being in Ukraine . There is a satellite image with caption Russian army, unless you have X-ray vision, for the life of me I do not know how you consider blur to be evidence.

[sanuk711]

3 Russian solders caught in Ukraine say they were in there by accident

.

Trust me i tried this one in court, it just doesn't work............................

[lovetotravel]

AsianTravel: That's some scary stuff. I sure hope both sides back off and take their troops out of Ukraine. Crimea also. It's just not right to invade another country just because some (or a lot) speak the same language. The world would be in chaos if that was allowed to happen everywhere.

konying: Again, sorry, but it's widely known and accepted Russians are on the ground there. They've even admitted it. Well, at least some of the citizens have.

Gotta love this one:

http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/01/technology/social/russian-soldier-ukraine-instagram/

Oops! Russian soldier Instagrams himself in Ukraine

And then there's this one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28961080

Ukraine crisis: T-72 tank shoots hole in Russian denial

Russia has consistently denied sending tanks into Ukraine, arguing that any vehicles used by separatist forces there must have been captured from the Ukrainian army itself.

But now experts at the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) in London have told the BBC that they have identified a Russian tank in a separatist column in eastern Ukraine that they say could only have come from across the border in Russia.

Joseph Dempsey, an IISS analyst, has studied video footagereportedly taken on 26 August in Sverdlovsk, Luhansk, in eastern Ukraine. The video shows a convoy of military vehicles.

And this:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/08/ukraine-rebels-say-russia-troops-among-forces-201482882338716351.html

Ukraine rebels say Russia troops among forces

A pro-Russia rebel leader has said serving Russian soldiers, on leave from their posts, are fighting Ukrainian troops alongside the country's separatists in eastern Ukraine, the website of a Russian state television channel has reported.

"Among us are fighting serving soldiers, who would rather take their vacation not on a beach but with us, among brothers, who are fighting for their freedom," said Zakharchenko in an interview posted on Thursday on Vesti.ru.

Meanwhile, a pro-government militia fighter said on Thursday that separatists backed by Russian soldiers had entered the town of Novoazovsk in southeastern Ukraine

Easy to defuse this situation. Get Russia to remove their troops and equipment.

[Jdiddy]

Propaganda that Russia has troops in Ukraine? Sorry, but it's a fact and not propaganda. Unless you only read Russian news sources.

Lots of propaganda from both sides in this conflict, you'd be naive to think otherwise

Anyway i hope Russia gets this resolved quick and throws out that western puppet regime in Kiev

[lovetotravel]

Propaganda that Russia has troops in Ukraine? Sorry, but it's a fact and not propaganda. Unless you only read Russian news sources.

Lots of propaganda from both sides in this conflict, you'd be naive to think otherwise

Anyway i hope Russia gets this resolved quick and throws out that western puppet regime in Kiev

Or wait till Russia takes over and then you don't have to worry about any "puppet" regime in Kiev. Everything will be run from Moscow.

[konying]

Lovetotravel,

It's nothing but propaganda.

The other day , a number of reporters in the area were live on all news stations , stating they have not seen with their own eyes Russian troops but " reliable sources" did.

Great, why " reliable sources" did not make a clear photo?

And how is it that reporters not see, but someone who can not be named did?

Edited August 31, 2014 by konying

[konying]

Propaganda that Russia has troops in Ukraine? Sorry, but it's a fact and not propaganda. Unless you only read Russian news sources.

Lots of propaganda from both sides in this conflict, you'd be naive to think otherwise

Anyway i hope Russia gets this resolved quick and throws out that western puppet regime in Kiev

Or wait till Russia takes over and then you don't have to worry about any "puppet" regime in Kiev. Everything will be run from Moscow.

And the problem with that would be what exactly?

[Asiantravel]

Propaganda that Russia has troops in Ukraine? Sorry, but it's a fact and not propaganda. Unless you only read Russian news sources.

Lots of propaganda from both sides in this conflict, you'd be naive to think otherwise

Anyway i hope Russia gets this resolved quick and throws out that western puppet regime in Kiev

Or wait till Russia takes over and then you don't have to worry about any "puppet" regime in Kiev. Everything will be run from Moscow.

ha ha !!

oh no , not the old weapons of mass destruction threat all over again

So is it okay for the West to surreptitiously take over?

Edited August 31, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Pakboong]

Seriously, for what possible reason could Russia desire to sneak a few troops over the border? To me, it makes no sense what-so-ever. I am as certain as I can be that Russia is preoccupied with other matters. Hungary sold Kiev some 80 T-72 tanks last week for their scrap metal price. Only Russia still uses the out dated T-72. Kiev uses only the T-80 and the T84.

I am seriously not trying to defend Russia. I fought the Cold War against them my entire professional career. That experience i hope does not make me stupid. Things still have to make sense.

[lovetotravel]

Seriously, for what possible reason could Russia desire to sneak a few troops over the border? To me, it makes no sense what-so-ever. I am as certain as I can be that Russia is preoccupied with other matters. Hungary sold Kiev some 80 T-72 tanks last week for their scrap metal price. Only Russia still uses the out dated T-72. Kiev uses only the T-80 and the T84.

I am seriously not trying to defend Russia. I fought the Cold War against them my entire professional career. That experience i hope does not make me stupid. Things still have to make sense.

Plenty of reasons. Feeling intimated by NATO, securing military bases (like the Crimea invasion), securing energy resources (quite a few in Ukraine), securing transport corridors for their energy deliveries to Europe. Lots of reasons.

Unfortunately, only a few don't accept Russia's involvement. The majority do. We're on the verge of a full scale war and Russia's right in the heart of it. Stirring things up.

Did you read about their trucks crossing into Ukraine without authorization? Under the guise of "humanitarian" supplies? If that was the case, why not let the red cross, who were right there, check each truck? They opted not to do that and cross with their personnel and supplies illegally. Perhaps they were hiding something????

[konying]

Seriously, for what possible reason could Russia desire to sneak a few troops over the border? To me, it makes no sense what-so-ever. I am as certain as I can be that Russia is preoccupied with other matters. Hungary sold Kiev some 80 T-72 tanks last week for their scrap metal price. Only Russia still uses the out dated T-72. Kiev uses only the T-80 and the T84.

I am seriously not trying to defend Russia. I fought the Cold War against them my entire professional career. That experience i hope does not make me stupid. Things still have to make sense.

Plenty of reasons. Feeling intimated by NATO, securing military bases (like the Crimea invasion), securing energy resources (quite a few in Ukraine), securing transport corridors for their energy deliveries to Europe. Lots of reasons.

Unfortunately, only a few don't accept Russia's involvement. The majority do. We're on the verge of a full scale war and Russia's right in the heart of it. Stirring things up.

Did you read about their trucks crossing into Ukraine without authorization? Under the guise of "humanitarian" supplies? If that was the case, why not let the red cross, who were right there, check each truck? They opted not to do that and cross with their personnel and supplies illegally. Perhaps they were hiding something????

You keep referring to Ukraine's energy resources. Please name it?

Russia is the largest producer of oil and gas, so what does Ukraine has to offer that Russia so badly needs?

Answer is NOTHING.

Ukraine heavily relies on Russian gas

If Russia was interested in Ukraine, they would have already occupied and nothing US or EU could do.

It is Ukrainian aim and determination to get Russia into war with the West.

Ukraine is the one making wild accusations and claims and then US all over sudden produces " unrecognizable" evidence.

Were you aware, the night before idiot Poroshenko made the claim Russian troops are in Ukraine, he had 4 hour meeting with Putin, which finished at 2am?

Name dates Poroshenko or his pro Nazi party members, had a meeting or negotiations with the so called rebels? NEVER!!!

Here is the reality, US sponsored and supported an illegal overthrow of democratically elected government.

US then installed its chosen people.

All this, just to piss off Russia.

If anything, Putin has been outsmarting US every step of the way, he is an excellent tactician.

Russia has been playing very cool, and level headed, but i am not sure if Putin will continue to do so for much longer.

Putin does hold the power to make US and EU lives hell.

Also, can you think of any legitimate reason why every single proposal for peace in Ukraine put forward by Russia at UN gets blocked by US?