Cherry and sherry

[Kanga Japan]

Can someone tell me the Thai words (and script) for the following:

1. Cherry (the fruit)

2. Sherry (the drink)

There seems to be a lot of confusing information on these.

Thanks for your help.

[AyG]

เชอร์รี่ or เชอรี่ for cherry. Both forms are common.


ไวน์เชอร์รี่ for sherry.

(My partner went into the wine store at Paragon a few years ago and asked for sherry. The shop assistant, rather snootily told him "we only have grape wine here".)

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thank you for that. Funny story. I notice that Thais seem to mix up the pronunciation between SH and CH.

Years ago the Thai Airways announcement would refer to the SHILDREN (although the remainder was in perfect English).

These things happen occur in many ways. A domestic Japanese flight I was once on wished us 'a happy fright'.

[Mole]

That's because the "sh" sound doesn't exist in Thai, so they say it all with "ch". Sometimes, in certain names, the "sh" may be transcribed using the character ฌ, such as Sean ฌอน.

I believe the situation for Japanese is opposite and they often tend to say "sh" instead of "s", especially if if there's "si" "see", it'll be said as "shi or "she".

The Japanese also say "r" instead of "l", while the opposite is the case for Thais.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear Mole,

Thank you for that information. Interesting.

Yes, in Japanese there is no SI. It becomes SHI, so it is difficult/impossible to obtain the correct Thai pronunciation when writing it in katakana.

Also, many Japanese cannot tell the difference in sound between L and R. They tell me they both sound the same.

[AyG]

It's pretty much universal that people learning a second language will substitute sounds from their native language for sounds in the second language which don't exist in the first one.

For example, gor gai in Thai is not the same sound as the English letter hard "g", and most English speakers of Thai will not use the correct Thai sound. There's a similar issue with vowel sounds.

Of course, in some cases the learner can't get away with substituting sounds and simply has to master the unfamiliar sound, por plaa and tor tao being examples.

In my experience, when I was first learning, I was able to recognise por plaa and tor tao simply because they did sound alien to me. It does therefore surprise me that for some Japanese people "l" and "r" sound the same when Japanese only has the "r" sound.

The "r", "l" confusion in the spoken language of many Thais is a rather different phenomenon. This is a case of the language evolving and the "r" and "l" sounds are beginning to merge in Central Thai. There's a similar merger taking place in Spanish in Spain - rather further ahead than the Thai l/r merger. The "b" and "v" sounds are merging and many Spaniards, when spelling out words, need to be asked "Is that 'b' as in Barcelona or 'v' as in Valencia?" There's a similar merger, but with vowel sounds, going on in Southern Thailand where sara ae and sara e (both long) tend not to be differentiated between.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thanks for that information. Yes, it is quite difficult to try and produce Thai sounds using katakana. Particularly with the sounds that are like AE (แกะ) and and OER (เชอร์รี่). The Ls and Rs don't worry me so much. The Japanese R, when you come to think of it, is sort of a cross between an L and an R - sort of a flat, pulled-back R. Sorry I can't explain it better.

At the moment, I am at the stage where I am checking the contents of the dictionary. Basically, all the words I can think of, or find have been entered, although some new ones come up occasionally. Still haven't decided what Japanese romaji system to use. Also, I imagine that there will be quite a few long and short Thai vowel pronunciations which will have to be corrected, with the help of a Thai. The RTGS system, which you advised me about (and helped me with) is a great help. Not only did it give me an idea of the sound, but it also unearthed some Thai scripts which were incorrect.

I am a bit worried about what people familiar with the Thai language will think of my 'simplified pronunciation' column, for those who know nothing about the language. I realize that quite a few people recommended leaving that out, but I feel that it will be a help - and the RTGS reading is there also.

It will still take me some time to check it all, particularly with so many columns lined up horizontally - making sure that they all correspond. Then I will have to start obtaining permission for photos.

Without your help (and of course many other members of the Forum) on this, I really could not have come as far as I have.

[Richard W]

Yes, in Japanese there is no SI. It becomes SHI, so it is difficult/impossible to obtain the correct Thai pronunciation when writing it in katakana.

Can't one use the large-small kana combination SU+I or, possibly, SE+I just as one uses TE+I for /ti/?

[Kanga Japan]

Dear Richard W,

Thanks for your comments.

Yes. I have been using the large SU plus the small I (スィ) on occasions, however it really isn't used in Japanese much and not really standard Japanese.

You can't really use the SE+I combination, I've been told.

Appreciate the idea.