Levels in education between a UK 6 yr old and a Thai 6 yr old

[2008bangkok]

I have a 4 yr old and a 6 yr old boy and girl who are in the Thai goverment education system, they have both being going to some kidn of school since they were 2, im getting a little concerened that they maybe falling being when compared to someboy thr same age in the UK education system.

I was wondering if there are any teachers read this forum that have taught in both countries and could offer a comaprison between the 2.

Or any parents who could share there experinences, maybet they have left the thai education system to go back to a western world.

I work in Thailand and have been for the last 10 years but always made a moderate salary certainly not enough to send to private school but i am also concerened with there education so it maybe time to think about relocating back to the UK.

Any experiences would be welcome

[SlyAnimal]

I've never studied or taught in the UK, only in Thailand, so can only really make comparisons with NZ.

But I would assume that the average level of government/public schools in the UK is much higher than that of government/public schools in Thailand.

A good indicator is class size, as although the Ministry of Education prescribes that classes should only have a maximum of 35 students, some classes have upto 40 or 50. In NZ I think it's a maximum of 30 students and one of the election issues is that the opposition party wants to decrease it further.

Also Thai schools often have a lot more "school hours" than in NZ, although don't necessarily have more "learning" time, due to a large amount of time spent on school activities + assemblies, which means less time for kids to play and have fun. This is often blamed for a lower quality of learning when students are in the classroom.

Many parents then send their kids to tutoring services outside of school hours, as they want their kids to get ahead of the others, as Education is very highly valued in Thailand.

However this results in the students spending even longer studying, with even less time to play, which is again often blamed for a lack of focus during school hours.

As a result, I believe that many classes proceed very slowly during school hours due to a lack of focus from students. Which means that the quality of learning in the classroom is often quite low, and special classes are actually needed in order to teach content which should have been learnt during class.

Also copying of homework and cheating during tests/exams is epidemic in Thailand. In NZ we would often copy homework, although not anywhere near as much as they do here.

But I never knew of anyone in NZ who was cheating on an exam, let alone anyone who was actually caught (admittedly I was in a good class when I was at school, other classes probably did sometimes cheat), however when supervising exams I've lost count of how many students I've caught blatantly cheating, and there were also a lot who I suspected of cheating but wasn't 100% sure so didn't pull them up for it. Many Thai teachers don't even bother to check that their students aren't cheating, and when they do catch them the punishments, if any at all, are usually significantly less than what I would have expected in NZ.

But this isn't surprising, when newspapers in the past few years have featured articles about hundreds of prospective teachers and police officers, who should be role models for integrity and honesty, cheating in entrance and civil servant exams.

However in saying all of this, I believe that good private schools are likely at a much higher level than government schools, and are probably on par with western private schools, yet likely have much lower school fees.

And even simply getting your children into the top streamed classes at a public school can give a level of education on par with western schools. As the students in the top classes usually all have very good study habits and are focused when in the classroom, often more so than your average western schools.

I also believe that with the support and encouragement of their parents as role models, students can learn good habits and not succumb to the vices many others do. By living in Thailand you may have more free time to spend with your children and play an active part of their education and their lives.

[hotsoup]

I've never studied or taught in the UK, only in Thailand, so can only really make comparisons with NZ.

But I would assume that the average level of government/public schools in the UK is much higher than that of government/public schools in Thailand.

A good indicator is class size, as although the Ministry of Education prescribes that classes should only have a maximum of 35 students, some classes have upto 40 or 50. In NZ I think it's a maximum of 30 students and one of the election issues is that the opposition party wants to decrease it further.

Also Thai schools often have a lot more "school hours" than in NZ, although don't necessarily have more "learning" time, due to a large amount of time spent on school activities + assemblies, which means less time for kids to play and have fun. This is often blamed for a lower quality of learning when students are in the classroom.

Many parents then send their kids to tutoring services outside of school hours, as they want their kids to get ahead of the others, as Education is very highly valued in Thailand.

However this results in the students spending even longer studying, with even less time to play, which is again often blamed for a lack of focus during school hours.

As a result, I believe that many classes proceed very slowly during school hours due to a lack of focus from students. Which means that the quality of learning in the classroom is often quite low, and special classes are actually needed in order to teach content which should have been learnt during class.

Also copying of homework and cheating during tests/exams is epidemic in Thailand. In NZ we would often copy homework, although not anywhere near as much as they do here.

But I never knew of anyone in NZ who was cheating on an exam, let alone anyone who was actually caught (admittedly I was in a good class when I was at school, other classes probably did sometimes cheat), however when supervising exams I've lost count of how many students I've caught blatantly cheating, and there were also a lot who I suspected of cheating but wasn't 100% sure so didn't pull them up for it. Many Thai teachers don't even bother to check that their students aren't cheating, and when they do catch them the punishments, if any at all, are usually significantly less than what I would have expected in NZ.

But this isn't surprising, when newspapers in the past few years have featured articles about hundreds of prospective teachers and police officers, who should be role models for integrity and honesty, cheating in entrance and civil servant exams.

However in saying all of this, I believe that good private schools are likely at a much higher level than government schools, and are probably on par with western private schools, yet likely have much lower school fees.

And even simply getting your children into the top streamed classes at a public school can give a level of education on par with western schools. As the students in the top classes usually all have very good study habits and are focused when in the classroom, often more so than your average western schools.

I also believe that with the support and encouragement of their parents as role models, students can learn good habits and not succumb to the vices many others do. By living in Thailand you may have more free time to spend with your children and play an active part of their education and their lives.

OP might want to read what I have been writing in the 'Should we listen to the children?' forum. If you want the children to learn Thai and have Thai friends, then they need to be in a Thai school. If you want to, and can, go home then you need to do it. Regrettably I have come to the conclusion that most schools in most countries are useless; the trick, if that is the right word, is to discover what your children are capable of and who they want to be and go for it!

Good luck

[JimmyTheMook]

If you'd like your kids to be even remotely competitive on the world stage, then get them out of a Thai government school.

Brainwashing and rote learning may work well within the Thai psyche/attitude but in reality it produces drones.

[96tehtarp]

And even simply getting your children into the top streamed classes at a public school can give a level of education on par with western schools. As the students in the top classes usually all have very good study habits and are focused when in the classroom, often more so than your average western schools.

SlyAnimal, all of the points edited out of your post (above) are good and valid. Thanks for your input.

A third party recently confirmed with me my boys school's practice of this streaming concept. It was the first I have heard of it. In my boys' semi-private RC school the do stream. I'm still not aware at what age they start this process, however when graduating high-school the top stream students do get accepted at Chulalongkorn, Thamasat etc.

Yes everyone does pass, however only the top streamed students get accepted to Thailand's top university's.

For everyone who says Thai university degrees are useless, they are not. Many go on to do a Masters degree at other top university's in G7 countries. Yet all do pass.

[SlyAnimal]

The Top Thai universities are on par with good western universities (Not anywhere near Harvard/Cambridge etc, but still a quite high academic standard).

I often check the international university rankings when they come out, and the top 5 Thai universities often have similar ranks to the top 5 NZ universities (Although NZ universities don't have the prestige of the top UK/USA universities).

The main difference at a tertiary level is that outside of the top 5 Thai universities there is quite a drop off in quality. With a lot of universities more degree mills rather than credible educational institutions.

E.g. I'm studying Thai at Chula now, and many of the students I've spoken to while practicing my Thai, who study law/business/history etc, speak much better English than some of the English graduates I've met from the less prestigious Thai universities.

Also the top Thai universities do fail people. But there is a culture within the universities which encourages students to study hard and expects them to achieve a higher academic standard than the lower ranked ones.

[Deacon Bell]

With 2 kids of similar age, consider hiring a teacher to teach them at home, as a homeschool but with hired teachers.

Perhaps a Filipino teacher and Thai teacher to do a few hours a day, or weekends.

Same education, none of the indoctrination and conditioning that makes them drones.

2-3 hours per day at home, learning the same stuff as in school, will keep them on the same level.

[2008bangkok]

Thanks for the responses guys, some good advice.

Im not apose to hoem schooling but i worry they wont have the interaction with other kids and kids need that, no func having no friends

Is it legal to home school in thailand and not send you kids to a proper school, i guess probably not becuase that would mean they would need to care!

[GentlemanJim]

If I may have an input. I have a girl aged 6 boy aged 4. My question would be at what exact point does it all go wrong, because I see a completely different picture. My 6 year old is now in Pratom 1 and everything has just clicked. She is screaming away from the pack and If I were to compare what she is achieving to a 6 year old in the UK there is no comparison. She gets a lot of homework, which at 6 yrs old annoys me a lot, but she does it always with me or Mum every evening. I do not allow her to go to any extra classes and I make sure nobody wakes her up at the weekend, she can sleep until she wakes. I agree with the poster above you have to give children time to be children, and playing/dressing up/having fun is equally as important as maths and language.

I disagree with the point that rote learning is bad. The education system I went through was rote learning and it worked. I have achieved great things. My daughter is reading and writing fluently in two languages, and for her, the fun challenge of a new language is offered by Chinese, and she is getting very adept. Both kids are disciplined, they are achieving and they simply amaze me as to what the are doing for their age. So with all that - where the bloody hell does it all go wrong? Is it when they get to secondary school age where the lack of critical thinking which is required for a developing mind is missing? I honestly believe the early years education my kids are currently getting is brilliant - BUT - they get a LOT of support from me and Mum and no extra classes apart from what they want to do (Ballet for her, Taekwondo for him), so they get a lot of 'kids time' at weekends and evenings whereas their peer group are doing school 'type' lessons 7 days a week and some from 7am-8pm it is madness.

Parents at the school my children attend are crying and getting hyper-stressed over poor exam results of 4-6 year olds !!! Madness. Some children are having their very childhood robbed from them to satisfy parents needs for better exam positions in the class. I have found that zero pressure to perform, fun, support and understanding has my girl at the top of the class and she is doing a third of the work. So where does it go wrong? All being well we will move in the next 5 years to give them a 'western secondary education'. But if we don't................

[Scott]

It's probably all going wrong now, but your just not seeing it -- at least not yet.

There is a difference between rote learning as a method of learning and rote learning as the ONLY method of learning. Many Western countries used rote learning and anybody who knows their multiplication tables is an example. In Thailand it starts with little things. Things like the discouragement of asking questions. Insisting that the notebooks be neat, but with correct answers being secondary. It starts with all students must learn the same thing at the same speed and at the same time.

Girls perform in this type of environment very well. You may find yourself more discouraged when your son starts grade school.

[2008bangkok]

If I may have an input. I have a girl aged 6 boy aged 4. My question would be at what exact point does it all go wrong, because I see a completely different picture. My 6 year old is now in Pratom 1 and everything has just clicked. She is screaming away from the pack and If I were to compare what she is achieving to a 6 year old in the UK there is no comparison. She gets a lot of homework, which at 6 yrs old annoys me a lot, but she does it always with me or Mum every evening. I do not allow her to go to any extra classes and I make sure nobody wakes her up at the weekend, she can sleep until she wakes. I agree with the poster above you have to give children time to be children, and playing/dressing up/having fun is equally as important as maths and language.

I disagree with the point that rote learning is bad. The education system I went through was rote learning and it worked. I have achieved great things. My daughter is reading and writing fluently in two languages, and for her, the fun challenge of a new language is offered by Chinese, and she is getting very adept. Both kids are disciplined, they are achieving and they simply amaze me as to what the are doing for their age. So with all that - where the bloody hell does it all go wrong? Is it when they get to secondary school age where the lack of critical thinking which is required for a developing mind is missing? I honestly believe the early years education my kids are currently getting is brilliant - BUT - they get a LOT of support from me and Mum and no extra classes apart from what they want to do (Ballet for her, Taekwondo for him), so they get a lot of 'kids time' at weekends and evenings whereas their peer group are doing school 'type' lessons 7 days a week and some from 7am-8pm it is madness.

Parents at the school my children attend are crying and getting hyper-stressed over poor exam results of 4-6 year olds !!! Madness. Some children are having their very childhood robbed from them to satisfy parents needs for better exam positions in the class. I have found that zero pressure to perform, fun, support and understanding has my girl at the top of the class and she is doing a third of the work. So where does it go wrong? All being well we will move in the next 5 years to give them a 'western secondary education'. But if we don't................

Im glad to hear your story it makes me happy, may i ask do they go to a goverment school and what area are you living in?

[SlyAnimal]

If I may have an input. I have a girl aged 6 boy aged 4. My question would be at what exact point does it all go wrong, because I see a completely different picture. My 6 year old is now in Pratom 1 and everything has just clicked. She is screaming away from the pack and If I were to compare what she is achieving to a 6 year old in the UK there is no comparison. She gets a lot of homework, which at 6 yrs old annoys me a lot, but she does it always with me or Mum every evening. I do not allow her to go to any extra classes and I make sure nobody wakes her up at the weekend, she can sleep until she wakes. I agree with the poster above you have to give children time to be children, and playing/dressing up/having fun is equally as important as maths and language.

I disagree with the point that rote learning is bad. The education system I went through was rote learning and it worked. I have achieved great things. My daughter is reading and writing fluently in two languages, and for her, the fun challenge of a new language is offered by Chinese, and she is getting very adept. Both kids are disciplined, they are achieving and they simply amaze me as to what the are doing for their age. So with all that - where the bloody hell does it all go wrong? Is it when they get to secondary school age where the lack of critical thinking which is required for a developing mind is missing? I honestly believe the early years education my kids are currently getting is brilliant - BUT - they get a LOT of support from me and Mum and no extra classes apart from what they want to do (Ballet for her, Taekwondo for him), so they get a lot of 'kids time' at weekends and evenings whereas their peer group are doing school 'type' lessons 7 days a week and some from 7am-8pm it is madness.

Parents at the school my children attend are crying and getting hyper-stressed over poor exam results of 4-6 year olds !!! Madness. Some children are having their very childhood robbed from them to satisfy parents needs for better exam positions in the class. I have found that zero pressure to perform, fun, support and understanding has my girl at the top of the class and she is doing a third of the work. So where does it go wrong? All being well we will move in the next 5 years to give them a 'western secondary education'. But if we don't................

This is awesome to hear, and gives me a bit of inspiration for when my wife and I have children and send them to school.

I think you've got the right system going, and that's what the difference is between your kids and the others.

You're spending time with your kids, and that's the most important thing.

When I was teaching, I would generally find that most students were in one of two different situations:

1/ Their parents didn't really care about their education, as a result, the kids didn't care about education, so homework was never done (or copied if it was).

2/ Their parents cared about their education, so sent their kids to special classes afterschool and at weekends. The kids homework was always done, but they often just copied it from their friends in the same tutoring class. Some didn't know anything, these were the ones who always copied homework, while the ones who did do the homework themselves, often knew the content I was going to teach, before I even taught it (Often the homework was finished before I even set it as well). The kids were great students, but the amount of time they put into studying was crazy.

The students always seemed to be at either one extreme or the other, although a few kids were genuinely good students who didn't do special classes (Their families didn't have the funds), I don't know if their parents helped them or if they were just massively motivated and naturally brilliant, but these were the kids that I felt were the best students. As many of them would also be really successful in sport or other extra curricular activities as well as being the "cool kids" in the class.

I hope that your balance is right, and that your kids will continue to be successful

[BAYBOY]

Very interesting reading.

I have been teaching English for 13 years plus at the same school here in Thailand. The school is a private one, and has a Kindergarten Dept and then Pratoms 1 to 6. The school Roll is usually 800+. The school is in a small village in Central Thailand and farming is the main occupation in the district. Also many parents work in factories in the major towns within 50/80 kms, going and returning daily from work.

Several things stand out that have changed over the years.

1) Today's parents seem much more interested in their child's education and future. In the early days hardly a parent spoke English, most had had a limited education, and seemed happy to see their children end up doing much as they had done. but things were changing quickly.Some children I taught 12 years ago now have their own children at the school and they want the children to do better than they did, and to go on to University etc. Living in the village for life is not an option now for many children. Work is limited and low paying, and is not generating enough income or mental interest for the young of today, who want every thing that's going. They aspire to the upper middle class in their adult life.

2) The push for better knowledge via education is highlighted by all the extra classes available to the students. When I arrived I was pestered to hold classes on Saturday mornings by the students parents. Gave in and was soon teaching 50 every Saturday morning.Nothing was available locally. Now there would be more than 15 places offering classes Saturday and Sunday 8 am to 5 pm. Charging a good fees to.

We are about 50 kms from Lopburi and several local children attend school there. They leave home at 6 am attend normal school classes 8.30 am 3.30 pm. then have extra classes every day till the evening... sometimes they are not home till 8.30/9.00pm. Plus extra classes every Saturday and Sunday. Again the push from the parents who want to make sure their children can have every opportunity going.

Recently my wife and I taught at a local Government school for 3 Saturday mornings The school roll is 36! from Pratom 1 to Pratom 6. All attended and we have been asked to do the same next term for 6 Saturdays. These kids were from poorer families and their parents now want their children to be "in line". Interesting.

3) How over the last few years that the girls have zooommmmed away in front of the boys.Classes of 35 now have girls taking the top 10/14 places and the boys filling in at the rear.The boys have still retained a great interest in Football, comic books and little else. The girls attend any extra classes available, lead from the front in everything and have an intense desire to do well for self and family. Something the boys lack.

4) All the projects about ASEAN has stirred the thinking that other countries exist outside Thailand. The huge influence of social media with the young is immense. Every home has the computer, tablets, screen phones etc and the children thrash them for what they contain. We have children in the Kindergarten Dept. who play Facebook aged 4! Showed a map of the world in class the other day and the boys wanted to know the whereabouts of all the countries that played in the World Cup. Twelve years ago they did not know where Laos was.

I have great hope that the woes that exist in Thai education may slowly disappear and looking at the changes in attitude, teaching methods, the improved text books, more thinking processes, and the oncoming young teachers who want to do their best for all, I am sure it will come about quicker than we think.

BAYBOY