The Expat Divide...

[catweazle]

Maybe an accompanying question would be to ask why you use pretentious and convoluted language to ask such a simple question? Or is it just a way to show just what a superior bon vivant wordsmithing farang you really are?

The answer is simple as well - some folks just love writing... while some folks just love to act like /\$$holes. Guess you are clever enough to figure out which category suits you to a tee...

Edited September 4, 2014 by catweazle

[Guest]

I have a pet peeve about expats, those who have lived here for five years or more and speak a total of 100 words using poor grammar. These tend to be but not exclusively the same people who say; "they come here to my country and can't speak any English"

yes right, I learnt an additional two languages plus a difficult dialect in my youth, no problem. I went to a foreign country and learnt. At the age of 66 after three years of work I am beginning to understand how the Thai alphabet works and have a vocab of about five hundred words, mostly to do with plants and animals. With respect I find your peeve is a bit arrogant if you don't mind me bloody well SAYING SO.

Imagine how hard it is for people like me who are part deaf and part tone dead as well.

A lot of the time I have to turn around to hear what people say and as Thai is a tonal language, if you can't hear it properly how can you speak it?

Well put, and your account avatar is absolutely "right-on"

Dear BillD,

We are brothers in arms. I was a motorcycle racer and worked on ships around machinery at jet engine decibels. Too tough, too macho to wear hearing protection, I learned that "macho" is often just Spanish for "Really Stupid."

Anyway, Thai is pure tone, and I honestly struggle with knee verses rice ... Kow and Kow. Big difference based on tone. And it is endless. Not the fault of Thailand ... just the way it is. I often can not hear the difference.

Secondly, when we eagerly try to absorb Thai, we know not if we are learning Thai, or often Isaan Lao, or straight up Lao.

Want to lose face? Speak Lao to a Hi So ... or even just a middle class Thai professional.

To PJcm, good on you for speaking Thai, I do envy you in that way ... but remember, each of us is wired differently ... my capacity to learn languages is quite limited, however, I would strongly recommend you do not comment on my math skills. They are formidable, and extension of how my brain works. That is the way it is in life, we each have strengths and weaknesses.

So do please lighten up a bit ... we can not all be the wonderful you ... you are.

[NativeSon360]

You need to get out more.... Who smiles and nods at someone they don't know?

Answer: A lot of people smile, and nod @ people they do not know. Why? Because it costs absolutely nothing, to give another human being (especially one who shares the same social circumstance with you), a friendly "recognition" greeting.

The only expats in Thailand, who really don't get the "strength-in-displayed-solidarity" concept, seem to be both the Americans (with their adolescent notion of frontier "individualism"), and the Nigerians (Chinese puppets-on-a-string, who believe the rest of the world is impressed with their thuggish profiles, and "tough-guy", belligerent attitudes).

As I've mentioned in other posts, the American expats have a lot of growing-up to do. However, with only 238 years of national history, the Americans have yet to reach the age of puberty, compared to expats of other nationality groups. As such, the American adolescence, is age appropriate. If the Russian expats behaved toward each other. as the Americans do, then I'd be very disappointed in the quality level of the lessons taught by their history.

Based upon what I've observed of the Russian level of cohesive nationalism, they are definitely setting a remarkable example of solidarity, for the rest of the Thai_Visa expat community to be well advised of

[rijb]

Grow up!

[RikDao]

i like the idea of the bike ride. no divide there

except your bum crack and nads being pushed apart...

Clearly you are not perched properly upon your saddle or wearing the proper apparel.

Hey OP, nice, thoughtful, interesting post. (BTW, I used to love hardcore mountain biking, and when I figured out how to ride properly, I was rarely in the saddle).

I've found that plenty of old farangs (I'm one) in my lil neighborhood in Chiang Mai are sad, isolated, lonely, and grumpy. This was a shock to me, naturally friendly fellow that I am. At first, I wondered if it was something I said or did. Then I realized that some of these guys are just that way with (almost) everyone, that not all of them are that way, and I gradually started meeting some nice people.

Another important point: I don't drink alcohol, and I love to get outside in the morning. A lot of these curmudgeons drink in the evening, in fact, most of them need to be drinking to be comfortable with other humans, and when morning rolls around, they have miserable hangovers. Yo, no wonder they're unhappy! Sitting in the hot sun along the soi, drinking lousy coffee, pretty girls walking by and the poor guys don't even have the energy to look at them, the last thing they might want to do is be friendly to other farangs.

[JLCrab]

Maybe an accompanying question would be to ask why you use pretentious and convoluted language to ask such a simple question? Or is it just a way to show just what a superior bon vivant wordsmithing farang you really are?

The answer is simple as well - some folks just love writing... while some folks just love to act like /\$$holes. Guess you are clever enough to figure out which category suits you to a tee...

I like writing and do a lot of it other than ThaiVisa. However, given my audience of lawyers, persons at large NGOs, and government officials, etc., I have found that sometimes one must write succinctly enough so that the person has finished reading what one has written before they realize that they wished they hadn't read it.

[tingtongtourist]

At my age i feel i cannot spend time in either west or thai long.1 year in each place i think the best but of all things the hardest to put up with is the west for me. Hypocrisy,hidden scams and legalised corruption and unfairness after 12 months in Aus it shlt me to tears.

High prices, constant moronic advertiseing that is an insult to any intelligence..constantly skewed news and the justice? system.

cant drink because over $50 for 1 beer carton but even if you do and get caught DUI for even first offence gets 3 year disqualified licence

may as well be in jail as you will not be able to work because public transport non existant except for price of $25 for just 10 minute ride down the road

horrible nasty place and full of rich do gooder plonkers also

[NativeSon360]

Many posters (not just on this thread) are saying they are not sure of most of the foreigners they meet, indicating they themselves are the trustworthy, decent type, but others, until proven otherwise, are not. So where are all you trustworthy decent people? How come I never seem to meet you? I'm a decent trustworthy type, so how come you haven't spotted me and started up a conversation? I wait with great trepidation the answers to these questions.

Lacking initiative or confidence in yourself ?

benalibina, that was an uncalled-for, and very snide reply on your part. WitawatWatawit asked an open-booked (naive) question, that deserves no less, than an open, and friendly reply from you. Why not send another, more cordial reply, assuming that you possess the "grit of character", to make such a thoughtful gesture

Edited September 4, 2014 by NativeSon360

[WitawatWatawit]

Many posters (not just on this thread) are saying they are not sure of most of the foreigners they meet, indicating they themselves are the trustworthy, decent type, but others, until proven otherwise, are not. So where are all you trustworthy decent people? How come I never seem to meet you? I'm a decent trustworthy type, so how come you haven't spotted me and started up a conversation? I wait with great trepidation the answers to these questions.

Lacking initiative or confidence in yourself ?

benalibina, that was an uncalled-for, and very snide reply on your part. WitawatWatawit asked an open-booked (naive) question, that deserves no less, than an open, and friendly reply from you. Why not send another, more cordial reply, assuming that you possess the "grit of character", to make such a thoughtful gesture

I didn't interpret it that way, so no harm done. I was making an attempt at a spot of humour, and I guess it fell short of the mark and was regarded as being serious. I guess I'm in line to be Karl Pilkington's next guest.

[villagefarang]

One thing I neglected to touch on is the possibility that over time you may go through various phases of attraction and repulsion with regard to the people you want to spend time with. In my case I have been very inconsistent with several years when I spoke almost no English, to the point it modified my accent and my brother did not recognize my voice on the phone.

Later I went through a phase where I was rediscovering what Farangness still lingered in the recesses of my personality. Depending on the work I was doing or the sports I was playing, my mix of friends would change a lot.

I seem to remember having more in common with people back in the 70s and 80s, when Thailand had yet to be tagged as a cheap retirement destination. It could also be that we were all relatively young back then. Life was very transient with many people working here for a few years and then moving on. Without internet or smartphones, keeping in touch was much harder and I lost contact with countless individual who had once been close.

I am just suggesting that you may prefer Thai friends today but sometime in the future you might want to interact with other foreigner, or the other way around.

[slipperylobster]

why?

Because

why because?

[slipperylobster]

group hug...

[villagefarang]

Because seven pages, 163 replies and 6191 views later people are still interested, commenting and discussing the topic.

Edited September 4, 2014 by villagefarang

[JLCrab]

As attributed to ( or maybe mis-attributed to) Mark Twain:

I didn't have time to write to you a one-page letter so I wrote to you a two page letter.

[Morakot]

The OP seems to be about the human condition generally, by addressing a specific "expat" scenario.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Morakot

[benalibina]

Many posters (not just on this thread) are saying they are not sure of most of the foreigners they meet, indicating they themselves are the trustworthy, decent type, but others, until proven otherwise, are not. So where are all you trustworthy decent people? How come I never seem to meet you? I'm a decent trustworthy type, so how come you haven't spotted me and started up a conversation? I wait with great trepidation the answers to these questions.

Lacking initiative or confidence in yourself ?

benalibina, that was an uncalled-for, and very snide reply on your part. WitawatWatawit asked an open-booked (naive) question, that deserves no less, than an open, and friendly reply from you. Why not send another, more cordial reply, assuming that you possess the "grit of character", to make such a thoughtful gesture

I didn't interpret it that way, so no harm done. I was making an attempt at a spot of humour, and I guess it fell short of the mark and was regarded as being serious. I guess I'm in line to be Karl Pilkington's next guest.

As i am far far away from paradise i dont seem to be able to add emoticons in a comment. So to please our native son of 360 i will offer my sincerest apologies to you. Eventhough no ill intent meant. This to be seen as well when i "liked" the response you made. But good to see people sticking up for each other when they perceive to read an unjust reply to somebody else. My guess is even that the OP is about that. One way or the other most of us on this forum love thailand and most of its people. That is what binds us.

[NativeSon360]

Many posters (not just on this thread) are saying they are not sure of most of the foreigners they meet, indicating they themselves are the trustworthy, decent type, but others, until proven otherwise, are not. So where are all you trustworthy decent people? How come I never seem to meet you? I'm a decent trustworthy type, so how come you haven't spotted me and started up a conversation? I wait with great trepidation the answers to these questions.

Lacking initiative or confidence in yourself ?

Answering that question for you, WitawatWatawit , will not be an easy task. Please try to understand that many of the farang expats_in Thailand, are just ordinary, usually insignificant people, in the own country. Life in the western world is not as glamorous, or luxurious, as the movies often portray it to be.

There are no Theravada "free-rides" in the western world. Most farangs work very hard, for many years, earning the pension funds, they bring with them to Thailand. Many of those same expats are angry, and bitter because they cannot afford to maintain a decent lifestyle, in their home country. If they could (afford to stay @ home), then about 70% of Thailand's expat population, probably would never have come to Thailand, to begin with.

People take themselves, everywhere they go. Thus many farangs do not lose their anger and bitterness, with a single airplane trip to Thailand. They come to Thailand with "bright-eyed" hopes of starting a new life, and making new friends, but not with people who remind them of the world they left behind. It is for that reason, many farangs will purposefully avoid contact with other farangs.

These new, fresh-off-the-boat western expat (not tourist) farangs come to Thailand, in search of new "knowledge for living", from a culture of people that is many thousands of years-older than any country in the western world. Eventually, the farang comes to discover that life in Thailand, as with the rest of SE Asia, is like a symbolic syphon-hose, that sucks the substance of everything out, from a container (of the farang's entire life savings), but gives absolutely nothing in return, except a lot of Thai produced oxygen (empty promises).

Finally, most of his money is gone, the Thai lady, whom he came to love is gone. And now, all that remains, is the pension, that his Thai wife cannot get her hands-on; a furnished rental condo in Pattaya; and a few bottles of beer, to help him (temporarily) to wash away the failure of his life.

Many farangs are very nice people, who came to Thailand, but Thai people (despite their smiling faces & 2558-year Buddhist history) have not only contributed the farangs original distrust of people(originating with his own countrymen), but Thai people have repeatedly demonstrated, and taught the farang some of the most bitter lessons_in all his life.

In conclusion ~ One of those Thai taught lessons of life being ~ that if he ever really wants to have a true friend in Thailand, then he should have first (after his arrival @ Bangkok International Airport), gone to the nearest pet-shop, and bought a substantial companion for himself, in the form of a dog~~~~~~~~~~~

Edited September 4, 2014 by NativeSon360

[NativeSon360]

Many posters (not just on this thread) are saying they are not sure of most of the foreigners they meet, indicating they themselves are the trustworthy, decent type, but others, until proven otherwise, are not. So where are all you trustworthy decent people? How come I never seem to meet you? I'm a decent trustworthy type, so how come you haven't spotted me and started up a conversation? I wait with great trepidation the answers to these questions.

Lacking initiative or confidence in yourself ?

benalibina, that was an uncalled-for, and very snide reply on your part. WitawatWatawit asked an open-booked (naive) question, that deserves no less, than an open, and friendly reply from you. Why not send another, more cordial reply, assuming that you possess the "grit of character", to make such a thoughtful gesture

I didn't interpret it that way, so no harm done. I was making an attempt at a spot of humour, and I guess it fell short of the mark and was regarded as being serious. I guess I'm in line to be Karl Pilkington's next guest.

"I wait with great trepidation the answers to these questions." The word "trepidation" implies a level of seriousness, on your part. I got on benalibina' s case needlessly, on your behalf? Karl Pilkington's next guest? With your notion of humour, I seriously doubt that You have received, a not so humorous answer, to your "spot "of a humourous query, re: a very unfortunate circumstance, for many male expats in Thailand,......Brits_included. Thanks, for the lesson. Cheers

Edited September 4, 2014 by NativeSon360

[ableguy]

except your bum crack and nads being pushed apart...

you obviously dont know how to buy a proper saddle

I do. It is just that my arse is too big.

And your mouth.

[NativeSon360]

BENALIBINA

It's very commendable that you would believe the cohesive bond between expats, is an over-all "collective" love of Thailand. However, the over-all part is debatable, re: love for the Thai people.

I have observed several tragic aftermaths (some leading to suicide), of what has happened to some really good-hearted, western menfolk, after having put their trust in the Theravada notion of Buddhist values, integral with the (over-all) Thai culture.

There’s a logical reason why Russian men, bring their own Russian women with, when they immigrate to Thailand .

Aloysius Bartholomew Thistlewaite, wrote a series of books "Money Number One", depicting the pros and cons of Western Expat male life in Thailand. Perhaps, if most prospective expats, to SE Asia read that first book, then they would be forewarned, regarding the "free-loading" mentality of Thai people, so prevalent in The Land of Smiles.

The Hare Krishna Movement of the 1970’s, was born from the roots of Theravada Buddhism. The Panhandling (free-loading / welfare) culture of the western world, was the subsequent child of that movement.

I do love my sometimes boring , but affordable lifestyle, in Bangkok (after having had the Pattaya experience). I am further grateful for having had opportunity to make (for myself), a pleasant living circumstance in Thailand. However, it definitely is a monumentally exhausting task to love anyone, who is fundamentally dishonest (in both words & deeds), has very little sense of either accountability, or responsibility (w/ the "up-to-you" replies, to every 50/50 joint decision making question).

For a people, with a cultural developmental history, predating both the Greek & Roman Empires (by one millenium @ least), I am hard-pressed to find a Thai person (in 2014 Thailand), of whom I can honestly say that I really like,..as a person. Thai people are culturally socialized to hide their true feelings (until they become angry with you, about some trivial matter). In turn, Thais also hide their true personhood, behind a kaleidoscope of differently chosen faces (the loss of face syndrome). Hence, the Thai designation of being "The Land of 1,000 Smiles ".

For sure, the womenfolk of Thailand are among the world’s most beautiful,….to look at. But, how, when, where, and on what platform, do we westerners begin to (reciprocally) love a people, who are socialized to love us on the basis of our utility value to them (only)? So, when you stop giving your money to every free-loading member of your gf’s family (who’s asking for “a loan”, then her loving eyes for you, come to an abrupt STP, as well. READ the book.

All foreign expats_in Thailand share this common circumstance, especially in the eyes of the Thai people.

So, the westerner, capable of solving this 50-year-old riddle, will become as famous, as is Confusius! Cheers

Edited September 4, 2014 by NativeSon360

[Cuppa]

As one of a couple with 32 years of mainly happy marriage behind us & thinking of becoming an expats in Thailand............

It often appears (to me) that posters forget that not all expats are single men, or indeed men.

Would we be part of such a small minority within the farang community that we would be an oddity?

[AYJAYDEE]

BENALIBINA

It's very commendable that you would believe the cohesive bond between expats, is an over-all "collective" love of Thailand. However, the over-all part is debatable, re: love for the Thai people.

I have observed several tragic aftermaths (some leading to suicide), of what has happened to some really good-hearted, western menfolk, after having put their trust in the Theravada notion of Buddhist values, integral with the (over-all) Thai culture.

There’s a logical reason why Russian men, bring their own Russian women with, when they immigrate to Thailand .

Aloysius Bartholomew Thistlewaite, wrote a series of books "Money Number One", depicting the pros and cons of Western Expat male life in Thailand. Perhaps, if most prospective expats, to SE Asia read that first book, then they would be forewarned, regarding the "free-loading" mentality of Thai people, so prevalent in The Land of Smiles.

The Hare Krishna Movement of the 1970’s, was born from the roots of Theravada Buddhism. The Panhandling (free-loading / welfare) culture of the western world, was the subsequent child of that movement.

I do love my sometimes boring , but affordable lifestyle, in Bangkok (after having had the Pattaya experience). I am further grateful for having had opportunity to make (for myself), a pleasant living circumstance in Thailand. However, it definitely is a monumentally exhausting task to love anyone, who is fundamentally dishonest (in both words & deeds), has very little sense of either accountability, or responsibility (w/ the "up-to-you" replies, to every 50/50 joint decision making question).

For a people, with a cultural developmental history, predating both the Greek & Roman Empires (by one millenium @ least), I am hard-pressed to find a Thai person (in 2014 Thailand), of whom I can honestly say that I really like,..as a person. Thai people are culturally socialized to hide their true feelings (until they become angry with you, about some trivial matter). In turn, Thais also hide their true personhood, behind a kaleidoscope of differently chosen faces (the loss of face syndrome). Hence, the Thai designation of being "The Land of 1,000 Smiles ".

For sure, the womenfolk of Thailand are among the world’s most beautiful,….to look at. But, how, when, where, and on what platform, do we westerners begin to (reciprocally) love a people, who are socialized to love us on the basis of our utility value to them (only)? So, when you stop giving your money to every free-loading member of your gf’s family (who’s asking for “a loan”, then her loving eyes for you, come to an abrupt STP, as well. READ the book.

All foreign expats_in Thailand share this common circumstance, especially in the eyes of the Thai people.

So, the westerner, capable of solving this 50-year-old riddle, will become as famous, as is Confusius! Cheers

your western menfolk obviously had no real knowledge of therevada

[AYJAYDEE]

Many posters (not just on this thread) are saying they are not sure of most of the foreigners they meet, indicating they themselves are the trustworthy, decent type, but others, until proven otherwise, are not. So where are all you trustworthy decent people? How come I never seem to meet you? I'm a decent trustworthy type, so how come you haven't spotted me and started up a conversation? I wait with great trepidation the answers to these questions.

Lacking initiative or confidence in yourself ?

Answering that question for you, WitawatWatawit , will not be an easy task. Please try to understand that many of the farang expats_in Thailand, are just ordinary, usually insignificant people, in the own country. Life in the western world is not as glamorous, or luxurious, as the movies often portray it to be.

There are no Theravada "free-rides" in the western world. Most farangs work very hard, for many years, earning the pension funds, they bring with them to Thailand. Many of those same expats are angry, and bitter because they cannot afford to maintain a decent lifestyle, in their home country. If they could (afford to stay @ home), then about 70% of Thailand's expat population, probably would never have come to Thailand, to begin with.

People take themselves, everywhere they go. Thus many farangs do not lose their anger and bitterness, with a single airplane trip to Thailand. They come to Thailand with "bright-eyed" hopes of starting a new life, and making new friends, but not with people who remind them of the world they left behind. It is for that reason, many farangs will purposefully avoid contact with other farangs.

These new, fresh-off-the-boat western expat (not tourist) farangs come to Thailand, in search of new "knowledge for living", from a culture of people that is many thousands of years-older than any country in the western world. Eventually, the farang comes to discover that life in Thailand, as with the rest of SE Asia, is like a symbolic syphon-hose, that sucks the substance of everything out, from a container (of the farang's entire life savings), but gives absolutely nothing in return, except a lot of Thai produced oxygen (empty promises).

Finally, most of his money is gone, the Thai lady, whom he came to love is gone. And now, all that remains, is the pension, that his Thai wife cannot get her hands-on; a furnished rental condo in Pattaya; and a few bottles of beer, to help him (temporarily) to wash away the failure of his life.

Many farangs are very nice people, who came to Thailand, but Thai people (despite their smiling faces & 2558-year Buddhist history) have not only contributed the farangs original distrust of people(originating with his own countrymen), but Thai people have repeatedly demonstrated, and taught the farang some of the most bitter lessons_in all his life.

In conclusion ~ One of those Thai taught lessons of life being ~ that if he ever really wants to have a true friend in Thailand, then he should have first (after his arrival @ Bangkok International Airport), gone to the nearest pet-shop, and bought a substantial companion for himself, in the form of a dog~~~~~~~~~~~

thais havent had a 2558 buddhist history.

[villagefarang]

As one of a couple with 32 years of mainly happy marriage behind us & thinking of becoming an expats in Thailand............

It often appears (to me) that posters forget that not all expats are single men, or indeed men.

Would we be part of such a small minority within the farang community that we would be an oddity?

I wouldn’t use the word oddity but you would not be in the majority. We have prominent members on this forum who are not married to Thai women. I have known several western women married to Thai men. There are gay couples.

Pretty much every group imaginable is represented in Thailand but may be harder to find, the more remote one’s location. It won’t be like back home but for many that is a good thing.

[catweazle]

After 175 entries I think it is evident that VillageFarang didn't write his article in vain and that he has made a point here. If some folks did not like it, thought the choice of words were too eloquent or whatever - who cares?

Great post, some very valuable answers - success, Villagefarang! Congrats to that!

Edited September 5, 2014 by catweazle

[villagefarang]

After 175 entries I think it is evident that VillageFarang didn't write his article in vain and that he has made a point here. If some folks did not like it, thought the choice of words were too eloquent or whatever - who cares?

Great post, some very valuable answers - success, Villagefarang! Congrats to that!

Thank you for those kind words of support. I do have a few stalkers who follow me around and disparage everything I say or do but I guess that comes with the territory.

[JLCrab]

After 175 entries I think it is evident that VillageFarang didn't write his article in vain and that he has made a point here. If some folks did not like it, thought the choice of words were too eloquent or whatever - who cares?

Great post, some very valuable answers - success, Villagefarang! Congrats to that!

Thank you for those kind words of support. I do have a few stalkers who follow me around and disparage everything I say or do but I guess that comes with the territory.

The territory: A self-proclaimed wordsmith.

[villagefarang]

After 175 entries I think it is evident that VillageFarang didn't write his article in vain and that he has made a point here. If some folks did not like it, thought the choice of words were too eloquent or whatever - who cares?

Great post, some very valuable answers - success, Villagefarang! Congrats to that!

Thank you for those kind words of support. I do have a few stalkers who follow me around and disparage everything I say or do but I guess that comes with the territory.

The territory: A self-proclaimed wordsmith.

Yes, that too I suppose, but I was referring to the overwhelming response I have had online to my writing and photos over the years, not limited to ThaiVisa. If you receive a certain amount of positive feedback there is naturally going to be a balance of negative comments. Fortunately the positives far outweigh the negatives, so I keep doing what I enjoy, and try not to be discouraged by a few unpleasant individuals.

[JLCrab]

From the blog: I have grown increasingly weary of discussing all things Thai, both here on the blog but also in my life.

If you've gone weary of writing/discussing it, why shouldn't you think some have grown weary of reading about it? It does take a certain kind of individual to consider one's life worthy of readable autobiography.

[villagefarang]

From the blog: I have grown increasingly weary of discussing all things Thai, both here on the blog but also in my life.

If you've gone weary of writing/discussing it, why shouldn't you think some have grown weary of reading about it? It does take a certain kind of individual to consider one's life worthy of readable autobiography.

Then I must be one of that “certain kind of individual” and make no apology for being such.