Experts to discuss threat posed by jihadists returning to Australia

[Scott]

Please keep the discussion civil.

[coma]

Maybe they should be handed over to America for a ' debriefing ' in one of their Middle Eastern sweat boxes.

[chooka]

How does a thread about returning Australians morph into one blaming Israel and the US for all the world's ills?

I

Because the very title of the thread has already prejudged and condemned a group of people exclusively, without looking at any of the background that has created the problem.

So now all you Islamophobes can have a great big hate fest. Nothing new there then on this site.

My posts now deleted pointed out that there are religions other than Islam in Australia that send their young people overseas to fight in terrorist wars, but the Australian government cares to overlook that fact. Perhaps they should be more even handed in their approach.

Yea right. Are you serious. These people are beheading others simply because they are not muslim. They are giving the heads to their 3 and 7 yr old children to hold up in front of the media and cheer for allah.

It is not about being islamaphobic (is this a new word) Islam hates non believers and they are teaching their children to hate everyone else. You don't hand your 5 yr child the head of a Christian and tell him to cheer in the name of a peacefull religion. Islam is full of hatred, death and the destruction of the world.

Yes these children were Australian kids born to asylum seekers who sought a peaceful land away from conflict and then they take their kids to war after getting residency.

[chooka]

1) Find out who they are.

2) Be as brutal as they will be

3) Expel them with no options.

4) If they have been fighting for Jihadists, jail them before deporting.

5) If they are Australian citizens of Mid Eastern Muslim origins, cancel their citizenship.

These people would not give anyone any chance if they are not in line with their beliefs they will behead with impunity, and persuade weak minded followers to strap on a bomb and self explode, most likey in a crowded sports arena.

The murdering scum should not be allowed back into the country. If they are aussie citizens lock them up for life in solitary as they are an extreme risk to Australia.

"AUSSIE" citizens or not.

DO NOT let them back into the country.

SIMPLE SOLUTION.

By the way they are not AUSTRALIANS, they only have Aussie Passports.

I M O H.

All very justified. If Muslims want to go off and fight for Islamic terrorist groups, they can just stay there and become "martyrs", rather than returning to democracies to carry out mayhem.

I am terrified of muslims and don't trust a single one of them. Won't let one come within 100 metres of my children. You have educated people going to fight and call for the extinction of non muslims. The cult should be banned totally in Australia and all the cult buildings removed. If the cult members don't like it then they can go overseas where the cult is accepted.

[arjunadawn]

Problem is: not one of the Jihadists/terrorists/Islamists/Muslims entering Australia are declaring their status.

When I go back home Customs are absolutely ruthless in not allowing any material items made of wood, shell, meat, flowers, fruits, bone etc.

Thus keeping Australia clean and safe.

I don't mind. Rules are rules.

Now what do you suggest?

I would suggest yours is a religionist false analogy fallacy.

What has wood, shell, meat, flowers, fruits, bone got to do with terrorist of any religion returning to Australia.

Other than that your post is pure religious vilification.

Actually, there is zero "religious vilification" in this post. This could hardly be percieved by you. It nearly seems you tossed it in their as a pejorative, like putting poison in a well, so future refreshment makes us ill. You really did not see the point regarding wood, fruits, etc. implying that the government can protect us from such benign things but fails to protect against existential threats?

You mentioned "religionist false analogy fallacy" (Huh?), and religious vilification. Lotta religious inference for a post that had none.

I suggest you educate yourself and improve your debating skills here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy

You wrote: Problem is: not one of the.....Muslims entering Australia are declaring their status.

I have been to Australia. You need not and should not have to declare your religious status.

That’s religious vilification. You are just part of the Islamophobic hate fest which this exclusive subject thread seems to have invited.

It would be totally unfair to me to suggest this is a debate. If I presume by that point that you were part of the dialogue you would have to have some premise other than the position that your opponents have no premise. You would have to be debatable. For the most part your posts rarely rise above distaste for the other posters.

Indeed, over the course of considerable posts it seems you declare this person hateful, that poster a pejorative, etc. There's a bit on both sides, mind you, but all in all, you don't post useful information to support the position that islamic jihad is not the threat so many think it is and that opposition to islamic jihad, islamism, etc., is cover for not liking muslims. In fact, your position seems to derive its energy from questioning the motives of others, impugning them with bias not evident in their post (often), and otherwise simply distasteful. Got a point! Make a point!

And a point regarding your distasteful attempt to employ me in the very fantasy I objected to- "religious vilification:" When someone gets so desperate that they have to stretch across absurdity to make a point they should generally be ignored. However, since you represent hardly anyone who defends such socially retarded positions, I respond. "Status" is not religion. People who belong or believe any religion do not then have that as a "status." On forms across the world "status" might pertain to anything from marriage to purpose of travel, but generally not religion. Indeed, it was not suggested it was in this instance, except by you. When noting the reason the AU government needs to get their mental hands around this issue it is because muslims returning from these lands do/would not declare a "status" in regard to jihad. You have digressed to silly. I might from time to respond to your posts but otherwise, you exhaust reason.

[arjunadawn]

Well, he shouldn't write "/" Muslim then should he.

Maybe a Freudian slip because we all know in this Islamophobic hate fest that is exactly what he meant.

You serve an invaluable but probably unintended purpose here on TV. When people ask themselves and others "how in the world has our country come to this?" it is for most of us, inconceivable that people cannot see what a barbaric, inferior wasteland sharia and islamic jihad brings in its wake. "Who wheeled the wooden horse into the city while we were distracted, fulfilling our social contract with society, and working, and raising families?" Well, now we know the thinking of the cultural relativists who destroyed the west.

[tracker1]

Bottom line is the Australian Government has no BA**S when it comes to stopping persons entering Australia or deporting them, when you read about the murderers leaving or the criminals entering !

[Bwanatickey]

If you go back and look at the old history of this scenario , it has happened before In Australia, around the late 70's

Young white Australian young men, looking for adventure where punished if they went over to Africa and fought alongside the white tribes over there.

[dexterm]

vinniek wrote "It's not Islamophobia if they are out to get you."

...yeah, I am not paranoid but the people who are plotting against me are.

[chuckd]

How does a thread about returning Australians morph into one blaming Israel and the US for all the world's ills?

I

Because the very title of the thread has already prejudged and condemned a group of people exclusively, without looking at any of the background that has created the problem.

So now all you Islamophobes can have a great big hate fest. Nothing new there then on this site.

My posts now deleted pointed out that there are religions other than Islam in Australia that send their young people overseas to fight in terrorist wars, but the Australian government cares to overlook that fact. Perhaps they should be more even handed in their approach.

Since you have been a member only a couple of months, you may not know I spent over 30 years living and working in the Middle East and have many friends and acquaintances that are Muslims.

I classify myself as an "Islamicradicalophobe". (Is there such a term?)

I am not an "Islamophobe" so when you are responding to one of my posts, please don't throw the accusation around willy-nilly.

It makes you look so silly when the sun comes up.

[dexterm]

How does a thread about returning Australians morph into one blaming Israel and the US for all the world's ills?

I

Because the very title of the thread has already prejudged and condemned a group of people exclusively, without looking at any of the background that has created the problem.

So now all you Islamophobes can have a great big hate fest. Nothing new there then on this site.

My posts now deleted pointed out that there are religions other than Islam in Australia that send their young people overseas to fight in terrorist wars, but the Australian government cares to overlook that fact. Perhaps they should be more even handed in their approach.

Since you have been a member only a couple of months, you may not know I spent over 30 years living and working in the Middle East and have many friends and acquaintances that are Muslims.

I classify myself as an "Islamicradicalophobe". (Is there such a term?)

I am not an "Islamophobe" so when you are responding to one of my posts, please don't throw the accusation around willy-nilly.

It makes you look so silly when the sun comes up.

Yeah ...some of my best friends are the J ...people too. They really are!

Depends where you spent your time in the Middle East (so have I). If you did I am amazed at your bigoted views in this and other threads.

[dexterm]

aujanadawn,

This may not seem like a debate because half my posts get deleted...ends up lopsided as a result.

Australian immigration asking returning Muslims if they are jihadists is about as silly as asking visitors to US if they have ever been a communist. Absolutely pointless unless you enjoy being hassled.

[OnTheRun]

How does a thread about returning Australians morph into one blaming Israel and the US for all the world's ills?

I

Because the very title of the thread has already prejudged and condemned a group of people exclusively, without looking at any of the background that has created the problem.

So now all you Islamophobes can have a great big hate fest. Nothing new there then on this site.

My posts now deleted pointed out that there are religions other than Islam in Australia that send their young people overseas to fight in terrorist wars, but the Australian government cares to overlook that fact. Perhaps they should be more even handed in their approach.

I guess seeing as the Z word has correctly been ruled off topic.

.yes, along with the J and the other I word. But Muslim bashing is fair game.

With the loaded words in the thread's title this can only ever be a lopsided debate.

Islamophobes only need apply.

"Islamophobes only need apply."

Far from it, it's good to have the input of lily livered liberals like yourself to let us understand exactly where we went wrong.

[konying]

1) Find out who they are.

2) Be as brutal as they will be

3) Expel them with no options.

4) If they have been fighting for Jihadists, jail them before deporting.

5) If they are Australian citizens of Mid Eastern Muslim origins, cancel their citizenship.

These people would not give anyone any chance if they are not in line with their beliefs they will behead with impunity, and persuade weak minded followers to strap on a bomb and self explode, most likey in a crowded sports arena.

The murdering scum should not be allowed back into the country. If they are aussie citizens lock them up for life in solitary as they are an extreme risk to Australia.

"AUSSIE" citizens or not.

DO NOT let them back into the country.

SIMPLE SOLUTION.

By the way they are not AUSTRALIANS, they only have Aussie Passports.

I M O H.

Thus they are Australian.

Unless you believe 99% of the populations are not Australian but only hold Australian passport

[Seastallion]

The problem is the paradox of Western style democracy.

If you have a democracy, you have democratic rules, which include freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and all men are created equal.

Once you start saying, "Hang on a minute, I don't want that man to have freedom of speech or religion" or "No way is that man equal to me, he is inferior." you start departing from democratic values.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Having said that, I agree wholeheartedly that Australia should incarcerate all returning jihadis for having committed crimes, albeit on foreign soil. Australia should incarcerate all returning combatants that have participated in breaches of international law.

There is precedent. Australia has enacted a law that enables the incarceration of paedophiles returning from overseas perversion trips. Their crimes were committed overseas, their time will be served in Australian gaol.

As for the domestic scene, if you want democracy, then you have to manage radicals in a way that does not contravene democratic values. You can not make laws that discriminate. If you do, you have apartheid, not democracy.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies have been deleted.

You can be assured that NO ONE is getting 1/2 of their posts removed. If you want your post to remain, then please stay on topic. Please don't quote posts which are obviously inflammatory or off-topic.

Please make your post about the topic and not about other posters.

[arjunadawn]

aujanadawn,

This may not seem like a debate because half my posts get deleted...ends up lopsided as a result.

Australian immigration asking returning Muslims if they are jihadists is about as silly as asking visitors to US if they have ever been a communist. Absolutely pointless unless you enjoy being hassled.

Your the only one who suggested AU ask people if they are Muslims so stop using my name in suggesting I did. I'd hardly suggest such an asinine thing. I made a sarcastic comment regarding Muslims not stating their status - AS JIHADISTS!

[arjunadawn]

The problem is the paradox of Western style democracy.

If you have a democracy, you have democratic rules, which include freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and all men are created equal.

Once you start saying, "Hang on a minute, I don't want that man to have freedom of speech or religion" or "No way is that man equal to me, he is inferior." you start departing from democratic values.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Having said that, I agree wholeheartedly that Australia should incarcerate all returning jihadis for having committed crimes, albeit on foreign soil. Australia should incarcerate all returning combatants that have participated in breaches of international law.

There is precedent. Australia has enacted a law that enables the incarceration of paedophiles returning from overseas perversion trips. Their crimes were committed overseas, their time will be served in Australian gaol.

As for the domestic scene, if you want democracy, then you have to manage radicals in a way that does not contravene democratic values. You can not make laws that discriminate. If you do, you have apartheid, not democracy.

This is such a false choice. Setting up the notion this "paradox" you refer to is either free natural rights or individuals revoking others' "freedom of speech or religion" is ridiculous; not only because individuals don't have that power but the collective does not either. Impugning further that such motivation would be because the other is "inferior" really does not set up an objective deliberation at all does it? All this sets up is a slippery entry into your point of view, but it is not valid.

Whether democratic values or the natural rights of man, they exist only to a point. Society inherently has the power to decide where an individual's rights end and another's begin; usually this is where action or intent begin. Jihadis have declared intent. After training abroad they have capability. Once returned to the interior they have proximity. These three are the discriminators for threat assessment. If you propose an argument that certain rights exist irrespective of an individual opposing them, you are correct. However, society must determine threat and minimize collective risk even if stripping rights of the individual (which would not even be the case here because one man's rights never included extending into the realm of another man' rights.

[H1w4yR1da]

Islamophobes only need apply.

Thanks for the invite but I'm already here.

I have been to Australia. You need not and should not have to declare your religious status.

Then how are they going to keep the terrorists out?

Well, he shouldn't write "/" Muslim then should he.

Why on earth not!?

You may wish to prattle on about terrorists of other religious persuasions but we all know who they really are. Except outrageous apologists perhaps!

Maybe they should be handed over to America for a ' debriefing ' in one of their Middle Eastern sweat boxes.

Yeah, renditioned at the very least. And never be allowed to set foot in the country again.

This may not seem like a debate because half my posts get deleted...

Gee, I wonder why?

Maybe it's not just us who are sick of the constant excuses, deflection, blatant denial of the obvious, passing the buck and attacking posters who disagree with you by referring to to them as bigots.

[Steely Dan]

aujanadawn,

This may not seem like a debate because half my posts get deleted...ends up lopsided as a result.

Australian immigration asking returning Muslims if they are jihadists is about as silly as asking visitors to US if they have ever been a communist. Absolutely pointless unless you enjoy being hassled.

If someone comes back from an area with an outbreak of Ebola I would hope they were quarantined, the same applies to Muslims returning from a jihad infested area, perhaps a deal could be struck with PNG as a processing center.

P.S if this sounds like internment then so be it.

[simple1]

Even before ISIS Australia had a jihad problem, notably in Sydney where many Shia businesses were forced to close and sell up for a pittance due to threats from Sunni extremists (not the right wing or any nationalist movement. There have also been violent clashes between both Sunni and Shia in both Australia and the UK, perhaps if they all upped sticks to the Middle East and bashed each other with clubs this could be settled without Western democracies having to play referee.

Your observation should equally apply to the people in Australia from the former Yugoslavia, so called Christians who also indulge in violence between their communities.

Oz citizens went to fight in Afghanistan, we are told around 50 people. Some of those who returned were planning domestic terrorism, arrested and jailed. Currently approx 60 - 150 Australians have been identified as having joined IS, with some already killed. Personally I believe that those who try to re-enter Australia should be arrested and jailed for life, rather than being refused entry and therefore enabled to carry on with their atrocities in Syria / Iraq or elsewhere.

Why Australian politicians keep fog horning their intentions I do not know.

[chuckd]

How does a thread about returning Australians morph into one blaming Israel and the US for all the world's ills?

I

Because the very title of the thread has already prejudged and condemned a group of people exclusively, without looking at any of the background that has created the problem.

So now all you Islamophobes can have a great big hate fest. Nothing new there then on this site.

My posts now deleted pointed out that there are religions other than Islam in Australia that send their young people overseas to fight in terrorist wars, but the Australian government cares to overlook that fact. Perhaps they should be more even handed in their approach.

Since you have been a member only a couple of months, you may not know I spent over 30 years living and working in the Middle East and have many friends and acquaintances that are Muslims.

I classify myself as an "Islamicradicalophobe". (Is there such a term?)

I am not an "Islamophobe" so when you are responding to one of my posts, please don't throw the accusation around willy-nilly.

It makes you look so silly when the sun comes up.

Yeah ...some of my best friends are the J ...people too. They really are!

Depends where you spent your time in the Middle East (so have I). If you did I am amazed at your bigoted views in this and other threads.

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, Egypt for starters...and I really did.

You accuse me of being a bigot. Please expand on this accusation.

[dexterm]

Islamophobes only need apply.

Thanks for the invite but I'm already here.

As such I'll take the rest of your post with the contempt it deserves.

Blind bigotry never solved any of the world's problems. It causes them.

[dexterm]

My list: Afghanistan Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Jordan, Qatar, UAE, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and 3 Palestinian refugee camps.

Not that we are comparing travelogues.

But I think your posts demonstrate very little understanding of the problems in the Middle East.

[arjunadawn]

My list: Afghanistan Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Jordan, Qatar, UAE, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and 3 Palestinian refugee camps.

Not that we are comparing travelogues.

But I think your posts demonstrate very little understanding of the problems in the Middle East.

I think it was dexterm who I went back and forth with regarding how returning AU jihadists were not the same as returning AU ____ who fought in another war. You argued that if returning AU muslims should be bared because they were in a war zone then returning AU ___ should be barred from returning from a similar place.

I argued how one clearly continued to pose a clear and present danger after departing their AO (Area of Operations). However, as I have studied more about the matter I wanted to concede to you that while the two are polar opposites in the subsequent threat they pose to civil society, perhaps a ban should be in place that addresses the issue before it is a returning AU citizen issue. Perhaps they should ban all AU citizens from fighting on behalf of any foreign power (unless combined military operations), of any design. This would allow the dreadful issue of returning AU jihadis to be addressed and allow postponing the confrontation with the AU muslim body now. Also, it would allow the politicians to escape facing the underlying issue and establish further political dhimmitude by caving into the AU muslim demands equating returning AU jihadists with AU citizens returning from a different war-like location.

My point is 1/2 serious, 1/2 sarcasm. This would address the need for AU to stop these threats from returning and provide political cover to do so, but it would also increase the appearance that AU polity can be leveraged by the AU muslim body. Just wanted to honor our previous discussion as my position has moved closer to yours. The point is to get them barred from entry.

[Credo]

There is a difference between leaving your country and fighting for or with another countries military. In some cases, it may be a requirement for dual citizenship.

If you leave your country and you fight for a country or an organization that actively opposes your home country, that is treasonous. Those doing it should be punished.

ISIS is considered a terrorist organization and those actively supporting it should face the consequences when returning to a western country.

[chuckd]

My list: Afghanistan Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Jordan, Qatar, UAE, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and 3 Palestinian refugee camps.

Not that we are comparing travelogues.

But I think your posts demonstrate very little understanding of the problems in the Middle East.

You called me a bigot. I requested you to expand on that accusation.

Please do so.

[Bwanatickey]

Modern day Australia is revered in the U.K. by ordinary U.K. citizens , often heard saying " Australians are right about immigrants, they have got it right "

( Your government is tough )

Once again your leadership is needed , how to solve this immigration dilemma, the U.K. is watching you, because our leaders are clueless.

[wellred]

Maybe they should polygraph test all Muslims entering the country. Send them back, strip them of their passport and tell them to never come back. Problem solved.

[ABCer]

Problem is: not one of the Jihadists/terrorists/Islamists/Muslims entering Australia are declaring their status.

When I go back home Customs are absolutely ruthless in not allowing any material items made of wood, shell, meat, flowers, fruits, bone etc.

Thus keeping Australia clean and safe.

I don't mind. Rules are rules.

Now what do you suggest?

I would suggest yours is a religionist false analogy fallacy.

What has wood, shell, meat, flowers, fruits, bone got to do with terrorist of any religion returning to Australia.

Other than that your post is pure religious vilification.

Actually, there is zero "religious vilification" in this post. This could hardly be percieved by you. It nearly seems you tossed it in their as a pejorative, like putting poison in a well, so future refreshment makes us ill. You really did not see the point regarding wood, fruits, etc. implying that the government can protect us from such benign things but fails to protect against existential threats?

You mentioned "religionist false analogy fallacy" (Huh?), and religious vilification. Lotta religious inference for a post that had none.

I suggest you educate yourself and improve your debating skills here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy

You wrote: Problem is: not one of the.....Muslims entering Australia are declaring their status.

I have been to Australia. You need not and should not have to declare your religious status.

That’s religious vilification. You are just part of the Islamophobic hate fest which this exclusive subject thread seems to have invited.

dexterm, try not to get personal with me.

I am sure my education surpasses yours - no matter which Imam taught you.

There is nothing to debate with you. Because you know everything there is to know.

You are right - they didn't ask you to declare your religious status. Big mistake! If they did you wouldn't be visiting.

I do not see where the hell did you find 'religious vilification' in my post you quoted.

From this totally baseless conclusion you go to even more disjointed accusation 'of the Islamophobic hate fest which this exclusive thread seems to have invited'.

Your accusations are so ridiculous that I've noticed quite a few members 'stepping in' for me. Thanks to them, but I can hold my own.

And you - dexterm - have the audacity to 'suggest you educate yourself and improve your debating skills here' ! What an irony !

I have good news for you :

* I am not Islamophobic - phobia is fear - I am not afraid! I just do not like it.

* I do not prefer any God or any Religion - and I'm still not afraid!

* Islam as a Religion is too imposing compared to others - and I am not afraid to admit my personal belief!

* "This exclusive thread" means to me nothing. It wouldn't possibly form my way of thinking.

* You, dexterm, mean to me less than nothing. This is why I didn't respond to your ramblings before.