5 Immigration officers came to my Home in Samui (Business address)

[sitti]

In the U.S., immigrations do make a surprise visit to business owned by investor's visa holder or business employing foreigners with some type of work visa/permit. Our company had this visit twice in 3 months. Basically, USCIS is making sure that they are not abusing their Visa in any way. Sound like Thai Immigration is doing their job and enforcing the laws.

[Wasa]

OP is not a clever guy. Stating he has 4 employees and can not reach ONE of them, not even by phone ? How ridiculous can one act, com'on !

Also if you "work from home" on your computer, WHY wake up sleeping dogs by applying for Work permit and other stuff ???

Because if you get caught working from home without a work permit the penalties can potentially be severe.

He did not have to state he had four employees, if he has a work permit it is a condition that he had to satisfy in the first place in order to be granted a work permit. But yes, it would've been suspicious to the authorities that he could not contact at least one of them.

Also, some people working from home can operate only by dealing with foreign companies. These guys can lie low if they choose. Others, including the OP's, even if just operating as a consultant, may be such that he has to (or wants) to interact with Thai companies as Thailand can be a good market for many goods and services. This is fine while business dealings are amicable, but as can be the case in business, dealings can sometimes become strained when a company may not be delivering on what they promised (common here in Thailand, as elsewhere).....it only takes one clued up (angry) thai from one of those companies to ask the question or raise the issue of "where is your work permit" to cause some drama or at the very least undermine your business credibility if you cannot show that work permit.

Another poster is correct, for a work permit now (at least in Chon Buri/BKK) they want to see a commercial premises as your business address, take a photo with you in there and even a sign on your door......

[smotherb]

Is openly admitting this on a publically accesible internet forum a wise thng to do - there are a lot of jealous farangs around who would happily dob you in. If I was you I would ask the mods to delete it and move on.

A 'wise thing to do'? What possible connection can that have?

[Suradit69]

This would have ended up very differently if they came knocking on my door.

For a start they would have been told to go away and no doubt it would have went downhill from there...

"and no doubt it would have went [sic] downhill from there..."

[rogerpilly]

.

How can you just pay the taxes on bogus employees and never actually employ them or pay actual wages?

Just wunnerin'.

'nuff said

As far as I know, this is a common practice in Thailand. You just pay social security for your fake employees and that's it, the Thai govermnent does not care about the rest. Do you think that a small business like for example a restaurant who might require 2 WP (foreing chef and manager) can afford 8 Thai employees (and I remark Thai, not burmese or other nationalities...)?

Edited September 12, 2014 by rogerpilly

[stevenl]

If Samui is anything like Phuket, then these guys were trying a shake down, these kind of visits are far from routine; they may well not be from Immigration or they may have been 'working' on their day off..

Are you sure they were really from Immigration, were they wearing the correct uniforms and did you check ID and note down names?

Totally not correct.

Many checks on Phuket, and these checks are legitimate.

If something like that happens I call my staff (some real employees, some not) and tell them to get here. They know the deal and know that can happen. You should have their phonenumbers handy and they should be able to show at short notice.

For the rest: yes, you did the correct thing, and no, your accountant was wrong, as your accountant was wrong with the 'staff'.

[ayayay]

Is openly admitting this on a publically accesible internet forum a wise thng to do - there are a lot of jealous farangs around who would happily dob you in. If I was you I would ask the mods to delete it and move on.

One of the inspector ladies who deals with the non-b extensions (very friendly and helpful lady) at Samui immigration once referenced ThaiVisa forum in a conversation I had with her. Don't know if she is a regular reader, but they certainly are aware of it. Especially since the so called 'birdman' at Samui immi is a reoccurring subject in the Samui forum. I never had the pleasure to deal with him (yet).

Haha, a Thai national visits Thaivisa? Wow, she must not be so friendly in the future, if she reads this forum on a regular basis, half of the posts here are downright Thai-bashing posts.

[mike324]

Trying to jump through the loop holes, its fair play, but expect immigration folks to drop by and should not complain about them doing their jobs properly as well.

[digitalchromakey]

If Samui is anything like Phuket, then these guys were trying a shake down, these kind of visits are far from routine; they may well not be from Immigration or they may have been 'working' on their day off..

Are you sure they were really from Immigration, were they wearing the correct uniforms and did you check ID and note down names?

Totally not correct.

Many checks on Phuket, and these checks are legitimate.

If something like that happens I call my staff (some real employees, some not) and tell them to get here. They know the deal and know that can happen. You should have their phonenumbers handy and they should be able to show at short notice.

For the rest: yes, you did the correct thing, and no, your accountant was wrong, as your accountant was wrong with the 'staff'.

Yes, perhaps the OP was not well prepared and perhaps should not had trusted his accountant to that extent, though I have no doubt he will be better briefed next time.

Maybe your business has never been shaken down for cash on bogus or semi-legal pretexts, but I have several actual experiences of attempts to extort money from my (genuine) employees in several areas of Phuket on various pretexts - guess you have been lucky to date.

I have no doubt that you read the local papers.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Chalong-Police-officers-be-charged-Phuket-dive/31317#ad-image-0

[stevenl]

If Samui is anything like Phuket, then these guys were trying a shake down, these kind of visits are far from routine; they may well not be from Immigration or they may have been 'working' on their day off..

Are you sure they were really from Immigration, were they wearing the correct uniforms and did you check ID and note down names?

Totally not correct.

Many checks on Phuket, and these checks are legitimate.

If something like that happens I call my staff (some real employees, some not) and tell them to get here. They know the deal and know that can happen. You should have their phonenumbers handy and they should be able to show at short notice.

For the rest: yes, you did the correct thing, and no, your accountant was wrong, as your accountant was wrong with the 'staff'.

Yes, perhaps the OP was not well prepared and perhaps should not had trusted his accountant to that extent, though I have no doubt he will be better briefed next time.

Maybe your business has never been shaken down for cash on bogus or semi-legal pretexts, but I have several actual experiences of attempts to extort money from my (genuine) employees in several areas of Phuket on various pretexts - guess you have been lucky to date.

I have no doubt that you read the local papers.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Chalong-Police-officers-be-charged-Phuket-dive/31317#ad-image-0

Yes, and all the people in that 'shakedown' opened themselves up to that by acting illegally.

For that story I really do not need the local papers, I was there.

But I think we're going a bit off topic here.

Edited September 12, 2014 by stevenl

[digitalchromakey]

If Samui is anything like Phuket, then these guys were trying a shake down, these kind of visits are far from routine; they may well not be from Immigration or they may have been 'working' on their day off..

Are you sure they were really from Immigration, were they wearing the correct uniforms and did you check ID and note down names?

Totally not correct.

Many checks on Phuket, and these checks are legitimate.

If something like that happens I call my staff (some real employees, some not) and tell them to get here. They know the deal and know that can happen. You should have their phonenumbers handy and they should be able to show at short notice.

For the rest: yes, you did the correct thing, and no, your accountant was wrong, as your accountant was wrong with the 'staff'.

Yes, perhaps the OP was not well prepared and perhaps should not had trusted his accountant to that extent, though I have no doubt he will be better briefed next time.

Maybe your business has never been shaken down for cash on bogus or semi-legal pretexts, but I have several actual experiences of attempts to extort money from my (genuine) employees in several areas of Phuket on various pretexts - guess you have been lucky to date.

I have no doubt that you read the local papers.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Chalong-Police-officers-be-charged-Phuket-dive/31317#ad-image-0

Yes, and all the people in that 'shakedown' opened themselves up to that by acting illegally.

For that story I really do not need the local papers, I was there.

But I think we're going a bit off topic here.

Not off topic.

This is how the shakedowns normally work, 'they' (whosoever 'they' may be) discover a 'legal technicality' with one's paperwork, then offer to ignore it, in exchange for cash.

This is how this corruption works, often with cash payments demanded that are far in excess of the fines that would be due for any 'infringement'; however people pay up out of the fear that things may get much worst.

This is why these scum should be trodden on hard and maybe others will then tread more lightly in the future.

Edited September 12, 2014 by digitalchromakey

[stevenl]

Not off topic.

This is how the shakedowns normally work, 'they' (whosoever 'they' may be) discover a 'legal technicality' with one's paperwork, then offer to ignore it, in exchange for cash.

This is how this corruption works, often with cash payments demanded that are far in excess of the fines that would be due for any 'infringement'; however people pay up out of the fear that things may get much worst.

This is why these scum should be trodden on hard and maybe others will then tread more lightly in the future.

Unfortunately many people discuss these cases without knowing what really went on. In this case: yes, some police were in the wrong and the prosecution of them is justified, but for most of the people 'arrested' the arrest was justified.

[Expat Girl]

This is pretty scary stuff, especially if there are fake policemen and immigration officials around. I do feel for the OP though, he was not doing any real damage and was just getting on with his life, now he must be very anxious with all the uncertainty as to what may happen. I guess the only thing to do now is wait and see if it blows over, which it hopefully will do and he can get back to enjoying life in Samui , lucky devil.

[Don Aleman]

They are trying to justify their ridiculous 90 day reporting as no one, previous to you, has had a visit to confirm where you live. Changing address is the only reason given by immigration for the 90 day fiasco !

[stevenl]

They are trying to justify their ridiculous 90 day reporting as no one, previous to you, has had a visit to confirm where you live. Changing address is the only reason given by immigration for the 90 day fiasco !

No, probably nothing to do with 90 days reporting but with a check of the company.

[Beetlejuice]

They asked me to get one of my staff? I could not get them because they were all working in there other jobs (I used them to get my permit as my accountant advised) I did not tell the officers this, but I just told them they are away and I could not get in contact with them.

Than this means the OP has obtained his work permit by deceit and deception. No argument about it, he is not a legitimate business owner in Thailand.

It is good that the police are doing their job. They were extremely decent towards the OP as by rights and by law they have the powers to suspend the OP`s business activities while making further inquiries.

But the OP is not out of trouble yet, as the police report will probably be submitted to the Immigration department and his next visa extension and work permit maybe denied, which I sincerely hope will be the case, because it is those like the OP who continue to abuse the system that places critical observations on everyone else.

[BigC]

If you have employees who are not really employees then technically it is not within the rules.

But if you are paying their tax then isn't that all that matters? Also as to people saying they are fake police then they would have asked for money or what would be the point plus they would have refused to speak to his accountant so I doubt they were fake

I reckon he did the right thing

They are doing routine checks now so if he told them to go away then they might have come back harder and started looking into his Busines more by asking neighbours what he is up to and push it harder. Looks like they finished up there then went to the next house

The best thing to do is like parking a car if you park the car and run away then they might not make you move. If don't answer the door then they may get bored of coming back

But I reckon he is in the clear. The laws are set up so they if they want to make a problem they can. Just try not to give them an excuse

[brain150]

"I also paid for 4 Thai staff's social security to secure my visa, but I do not have Thai staff as such."

This is probably the most stupid thing anybody could do on an internet forum !!!

As a fact this just as bad as saying: "I have cheated to get my visa"

... does anybody ever think for a second or two BEFORE they write this BS onto the internet ???

[falang07]

Is not it up to the business owner if he pays his own staff with his own money even if their "work" would to lay on the beach all the day? I do not see any problem with this.

[digitalchromakey]

Not off topic.

This is how the shakedowns normally work, 'they' (whosoever 'they' may be) discover a 'legal technicality' with one's paperwork, then offer to ignore it, in exchange for cash.

This is how this corruption works, often with cash payments demanded that are far in excess of the fines that would be due for any 'infringement'; however people pay up out of the fear that things may get much worst.

This is why these scum should be trodden on hard and maybe others will then tread more lightly in the future.

Unfortunately many people discuss these cases without knowing what really went on. In this case: yes, some police were in the wrong and the prosecution of them is justified, but for most of the people 'arrested' the arrest was justified.

Well I wasn't there, but I have reliable sources told me who were there and as to what happened.

How can it ever be justifiable for fake arrests to be made, even if the victims were committing an offense?

I worked diving in Phuket for a number of years and during that time held a legit work permit; but I still could have been caught out on a technicalities like carrying bags, or escorting customers on the pier, or diving off Phi-Phi when that is in Krabi Province - all things that weren't on my WP.

Corruption and extortion is a cancer in Thailand and I personally support all efforts to stamp it out in the many forms it exists.

[cup-O-coffee]

If you have employees who are not really employees then technically it is not within the rules.

...Superseded by, and according to the police: "if you engage rules that are not really the rules then technically the foreigner who complies has nothing to worry about."

[falang07]

if they came to me and asked about my staff, I would tell them I pay them to do nothing and this is also my "business plan" here in Thailand, if they like or not, since such is the law which requires foreigners to hire staff they do not need. Is there a law that prohibits paying lazy staff doing nothing, or throwing my money in the bin? I really doubt it.

[falang07]

They asked me to get one of my staff? I could not get them because they were all working in there other jobs (I used them to get my permit as my accountant advised) I did not tell the officers this, but I just told them they are away and I could not get in contact with them.

Than this means the OP has obtained his work permit by deceit and deception. No argument about it, he is not a legitimate business owner in Thailand.

It is good that the police are doing their job. They were extremely decent towards the OP as by rights and by law they have the powers to suspend the OP`s business activities while making further inquiries.

But the OP is not out of trouble yet, as the police report will probably be submitted to the Immigration department and his next visa extension and work permit maybe denied, which I sincerely hope will be the case, because it is those like the OP who continue to abuse the system that places critical observations on everyone else.

Don't be silly, the owner can do with his own staff what he wants, even give them holidays 355 days a year. It is the racist law that forces us to hire useless staff.

[Expat Girl]

"I also paid for 4 Thai staff's social security to secure my visa, but I do not have Thai staff as such."

This is probably the most stupid thing anybody could do on an internet forum !!!

As a fact this just as bad as saying: "I have cheated to get my visa"

... does anybody ever think for a second or two BEFORE they write this BS onto the internet ???

I do agree with what you have said, especially if what the OP did is illegal.which reading the various postings does seem to be the case. I think he may have acted out of panic to tried and get some advice which may have made him feel a little better about the situation and potential outcomes.

Fingers crossed it all goes away, but you never know when you can get caught out.

[falang07]

I just do not get it what is with these forum thaifarangs a.k.a. wanna be converts to Thais like Beetlejuice who think they suddenly became by some miracle native Thais and must now quiclky enforce some crazy nonexistent rules to make lives harder for normal people.

[stevenl]

Not off topic.

This is how the shakedowns normally work, 'they' (whosoever 'they' may be) discover a 'legal technicality' with one's paperwork, then offer to ignore it, in exchange for cash.

This is how this corruption works, often with cash payments demanded that are far in excess of the fines that would be due for any 'infringement'; however people pay up out of the fear that things may get much worst.

This is why these scum should be trodden on hard and maybe others will then tread more lightly in the future.

Unfortunately many people discuss these cases without knowing what really went on. In this case: yes, some police were in the wrong and the prosecution of them is justified, but for most of the people 'arrested' the arrest was justified.

Well I wasn't there, but I have reliable sources told me who were there and as to what happened.

How can it ever be justifiable for fake arrests to be made, even if the victims were committing an offense?

I worked diving in Phuket for a number of years and during that time held a legit work permit; but I still could have been caught out on a technicalities like carrying bags, or escorting customers on the pier, or diving off Phi-Phi when that is in Krabi Province - all things that weren't on my WP.

Corruption and extortion is a cancer in Thailand and I personally support all efforts to stamp it out in the many forms it exists.

I'm fed up with this, especially you twisting my words, I said my thing already in the threads regarding this.

[falang07]

To sum it up: anyone hiring Thai stuff for securing a visa is just following the rules, and if he pays the tax and social security for them, he has ABSOLUTELY nothing to worry about, if you like or not. Even if the staff does not do any work, it is ONLY up to the owner to decide if he fires them, NO ONE else. No law is broken in here, go whine somewhere else please.

[stevenl]

They asked me to get one of my staff? I could not get them because they were all working in there other jobs (I used them to get my permit as my accountant advised) I did not tell the officers this, but I just told them they are away and I could not get in contact with them.

Than this means the OP has obtained his work permit by deceit and deception. No argument about it, he is not a legitimate business owner in Thailand.

It is good that the police are doing their job. They were extremely decent towards the OP as by rights and by law they have the powers to suspend the OP`s business activities while making further inquiries.

But the OP is not out of trouble yet, as the police report will probably be submitted to the Immigration department and his next visa extension and work permit maybe denied, which I sincerely hope will be the case, because it is those like the OP who continue to abuse the system that places critical observations on everyone else.

Don't be silly, the owner can do with his own staff what he wants, even give them holidays 355 days a year. It is the racist law that forces us to hire useless staff.

Since this applies to all foreigners, nothing racist about it.

[Thai at Heart]

If you have employees who are not really employees then technically it is not within the rules.

But if you are paying their tax then isn't that all that matters? Also as to people saying they are fake police then they would have asked for money or what would be the point plus they would have refused to speak to his accountant so I doubt they were fake

I reckon he did the right thing

They are doing routine checks now so if he told them to go away then they might have come back harder and started looking into his Busines more by asking neighbours what he is up to and push it harder. Looks like they finished up there then went to the next house

The best thing to do is like parking a car if you park the car and run away then they might not make you move. If don't answer the door then they may get bored of coming back

But I reckon he is in the clear. The laws are set up so they if they want to make a problem they can. Just try not to give them an excuse

As he said, he only got these employees to be part of securing the work permit. If the labour department wanted to, they can turn him over.

Who knows if he's in the clear. I would suggest he get all his so called non employees phone numbers asap and get hold if his accountant.

[BigC]

If you have employees who are not really employees then technically it is not within the rules.

But if you are paying their tax then isn't that all that matters? Also as to people saying they are fake police then they would have asked for money or what would be the point plus they would have refused to speak to his accountant so I doubt they were fake

I reckon he did the right thing

They are doing routine checks now so if he told them to go away then they might have come back harder and started looking into his Busines more by asking neighbours what he is up to and push it harder. Looks like they finished up there then went to the next house

The best thing to do is like parking a car if you park the car and run away then they might not make you move. If don't answer the door then they may get bored of coming back

But I reckon he is in the clear. The laws are set up so they if they want to make a problem they can. Just try not to give them an excuse

As he said, he only got these employees to be part of securing the work permit. If the labour department wanted to, they can turn him over.

Who knows if he's in the clear. I would suggest he get all his so called non employees phone numbers asap and get hold if his accountant.

Yes it can't hurt to get their phone numbers as a back up

I have no doubt they shall be on my door soon

From what I gather they go from soi to soi taking photos of the areas to investigate . Ten spend the day checking each place

If you have a resort then they might knock on customers doors and ask how much they pay? Who is the boss?

Yes I agree that now he has had a flag raised then he should prepare himself for the worst and hope for the best

Just in case some people don't know of you have a sign with you company name and address and logo then you shall have to pay tax on the sign the price depends on the size also