Pheu Thai raises its head again

[whybother]

Here's a scenario for you.

The general does not represent any party so come the promised elections,whenever they may be, who will he run with?

The Dems are a spent force and really no other viable opposition. If he did run with any of them he would be out of a job.

What if he made a deal with the devil? Runs for pm with the backing of PTP ((Thaksin).

A genuine nailed on close to 100% victory almost guaranteed! Not like the recent one man yes vote.

Then the boys can run amok with an elected blessing of the people.

Stranger things have happened an TIT

I understand that all NLA members are banned from joining the "2015 elections".

[scorecard]

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I like how people turn to the independent polls of 1275 from in and around bangkok in a society where under this political climate are really going to allow their true feelings to be aired in public!!

So what are you assuming (repeat assuming) their real feelings are?

[Thailand]

Here's a scenario for you.

The general does not represent any party so come the promised elections,whenever they may be, who will he run with?

The Dems are a spent force and really no other viable opposition. If he did run with any of them he would be out of a job.

What if he made a deal with the devil? Runs for pm with the backing of PTP ((Thaksin).

A genuine nailed on close to 100% victory almost guaranteed! Not like the recent one man yes vote.

Then the boys can run amok with an elected blessing of the people.

Stranger things have happened an TIT

I understand that all NLA members are banned from joining the "2015 elections".

I would think absolute power will allow any scenario?

[scorecard]

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Here's a scenario for you.

The general does not represent any party so come the promised elections,whenever they may be, who will he run with?

The Dems are a spent force and really no other viable opposition. If he did run with any of them he would be out of a job.

What if he made a deal with the devil? Runs for pm with the backing of PTP ((Thaksin).

A genuine nailed on close to 100% victory almost guaranteed! Not like the recent one man yes vote.

Then the boys can run amok with an elected blessing of the people.

Stranger things have happened an TIT

Well that's one scenario but there are many other possibilities.

I hope that when the time for the election comes we will be seeing a whole new scenario which makes the immediate past (last ten years or so and the main players in that scenario) irrelevant.

Hopefully the new PM, the new cabinet, NLA etc., etc., will spark a new generation of thinking, new parties / politicians, honesty and sincerity, which all has a focus on Thailand and the development and welfare of all Thais and the development of a fair civil society.

A tall order, here's hoping.

[rubl]

...No, they confessed to attacking civilians and the military.

"Somyot said the suspects confessed to being involved with the M79 grenade attacks on the red shirt protesters and the military officials on April 10. He however refused to reveal details of the investigation in which the suspects were implicated."

It's moving off topic again, but till now all red-shirts who died on the 10th of April were said to be shot by the Army. Only Colonel Romkhlau and staff got some grenades lobbed on them.

Of course all those who told me so might have been wrong. Also the MiB might have an aiming problem, unfortunately missing the red-shirt protesters targeted with grenades.

[whybother]

Here's a scenario for you.

The general does not represent any party so come the promised elections,whenever they may be, who will he run with?

The Dems are a spent force and really no other viable opposition. If he did run with any of them he would be out of a job.

What if he made a deal with the devil? Runs for pm with the backing of PTP ((Thaksin).

A genuine nailed on close to 100% victory almost guaranteed! Not like the recent one man yes vote.

Then the boys can run amok with an elected blessing of the people.

Stranger things have happened an TIT

I understand that all NLA members are banned from joining the "2015 elections".

I would think absolute power will allow any scenario?

Yes. But let's stick with the scenarios that have been stated or that are more than likely rather than making up things that have a very small possibility of happening.

At this stage, NLA members can't stand in the next election.

[AleG]

See the old familiar heads with their old familiar rhetoric who honestly believe that the ptp won't win the next election and any one who dare votes for them is brainwashed.

We'll you guys can sit there day in day out in front of your PC for hours on end writing the same the things you have been writing for years but the plain fact is that soon as an election is held anyone of the shins clan who puts his or head up will win and win big time.

I know it you guys know you just can't bring yourself to admit it.

I almost feel sorry for one member who shall remain nameless who is so blinded by the yellow color he must be on his PC 24/7 trotting out the same rhetoric

Almost it said.

Pardon my lack of confidence on the predictions of someone that says that pushing for an amnesty for Thaksin AGAIN will calm things down instead of causing a public uproar, AGAIN.

Were you asleep during the last Amnesty (for Thaksin) debacle?

Thaksin and Yingluck are still very popular with the thai people and the junta knows it and I think there are deals being done int the background to allow a more peaceful transition of government with new rules for the politicians when the next election is announced.

Maybe there will be no red and yellow shirts or black and pink shirts but one thing for sure is when that day comes you can rest assured that if Thaksin and Yingluck are still around which they will be then it will be another landslide just as it has been in the past .

The junta knows this so compromises will be made on both sides maybe even allowing Thaksin to return and granted amnesty which would go along way to calming the situation and allowing Thailand to move ahead.

[rubl]

"After months of silence, politicians, red-shirt leaders making public appearances after getting Thaksin okay"

With red-shirts having evolved beyond Thaksin maybe the line should have "UDD leaders" instead, or "Pheu Thai parlty list UDD leaders" ?

[rubl]

Good I'm glad they are coming back , the Junta have been slaughtered by Amnesty international for suppressing freedom of speech amoungst other thing

Personally I doubt that AI has 'slaughtered' the junta. That's against all they stand for.

[Cuchulainn]

The day this corrupt, selfish, self-centered scum return will be a very sad one indeed. The pigs are missing their troughs.

[Thailand]

Here's a scenario for you.

The general does not represent any party so come the promised elections,whenever they may be, who will he run with?

The Dems are a spent force and really no other viable opposition. If he did run with any of them he would be out of a job.

What if he made a deal with the devil? Runs for pm with the backing of PTP ((Thaksin).

A genuine nailed on close to 100% victory almost guaranteed! Not like the recent one man yes vote.

Then the boys can run amok with an elected blessing of the people.

Stranger things have happened an TIT

I understand that all NLA members are banned from joining the "2015 elections".

I would think absolute power will allow any scenario?

Yes. But let's stick with the scenarios that have been stated or that are more than likely rather than making up things that have a very small possibility of happening.

At this stage, NLA members can't stand in the next election.

So sorry to have suggested something,however unlikely, I was not aware it was unacceptable to do so.

[halloween]

As for an election in 2015 (if it happens), you have no idea what the junta picked NRC are going to come up with in order to load the decks for that election. So if the PTP lose that election they may well be quite within their rights to blame the junta and their underlings for the result.

Don't say it won't happen, abhisit changed the constitution before the 2011 Election to favour the dems with his raising of the number of party list MP's and reduction of constituency seats. That plan didn't work, probably because after 2010 abhisit was unelectable.

If PTP lose the 2015 election (highly likely) there is no doubt that it will anybody's fault but their own. As they seem incapable of following election law, there will inevitably be an infraction or six, leading to claims of unfair courts and judicial coup, avidly supported by the paid propagandists of UDD.

Whether their 'democracy' schools will be able to incite/bribe enough of the gullible to march on BKK is another matter. This might be more difficult when the MIB case point out who was murdering them and on who's behalf.

[whybother]

So sorry to have suggested something,however unlikely, I was not aware it was unacceptable to do so.

Shall we discuss what might happen if aliens made a deal with Prayuth, or might that be a waste of time?

[halloween]

So sorry to have suggested something,however unlikely, I was not aware it was unacceptable to do so.

Shall we discuss what might happen if aliens made a deal with Prayuth, or might that be a waste of time?

isn't that why they arrested the MiB?

[Nickymaster]

Good I'm glad they are coming back , the Junta have been slaughtered by Amnesty international for suppressing freedom of speech amoungst other thing

Link??

You think AI and HRW like Thaksin.

I dare you to Google: Thaksin Shinawatra human rights abuses

It doesn't mean that if they criticize the Junta they like Thaksin! That is how children think.

[fab4]

As for an election in 2015 (if it happens), you have no idea what the junta picked NRC are going to come up with in order to load the decks for that election. So if the PTP lose that election they may well be quite within their rights to blame the junta and their underlings for the result.

Don't say it won't happen, abhisit changed the constitution before the 2011 Election to favour the dems with his raising of the number of party list MP's and reduction of constituency seats. That plan didn't work, probably because after 2010 abhisit was unelectable.

If PTP lose the 2015 election (highly likely) there is no doubt that it will anybody's fault but their own. As they seem incapable of following election law, there will inevitably be an infraction or six, leading to claims of unfair courts and judicial coup, avidly supported by the paid propagandists of UDD.

Whether their 'democracy' schools will be able to incite/bribe enough of the gullible to march on BKK is another matter. This might be more difficult when the MIB case point out who was murdering them and on who's behalf.

Difficult to know where to start with this. Tell you what, I'll just say I disagree with you, it would be pointless arguing against such a mindset.

[baboon]

Thaksin and Yingluck are still very popular with the thai people

SOME Thai people... read: those easily bought/brainwashed.

As you wish. It doesn't make his point any less valid, though - an awful lot of people still do like them for whatever reason.

[LindsayBKK]

Just when you thought it was safe to return to normal (well as normal as one can get in LOS)

Now why does that picture look familiar?

ummm oh I know!

http://ow.ly/3qzyov

They're creepy and they're kooky,

Mysterious and spooky

They're all together ooky

The Shin-watra Family.

Their house is a museum.

When people come to see 'em

They really are a screa-um.

The Shin-watra Family.

Neat Sweet Petite

So get a witch's shawl on.

A broomstick you can crawl on.

We're gonna pay a call on

The Shin-watra Family.

[fab4]

...No, they confessed to attacking civilians and the military.

"Somyot said the suspects confessed to being involved with the M79 grenade attacks on the red shirt protesters and the military officials on April 10. He however refused to reveal details of the investigation in which the suspects were implicated."

It's moving off topic again, but till now all red-shirts who died on the 10th of April were said to be shot by the Army. Only Colonel Romkhlau and staff got some grenades lobbed on them.

Of course all those who told me so might have been wrong. Also the MiB might have an aiming problem, unfortunately missing the red-shirt protesters targeted with grenades.

Thread Title / Pheu Thai raises its head again

It's moving off topic again, but till now all red-shirts who died on the 10th of April were said to be shot by the Army. Only Colonel Romkhlau and staff got some grenades lobbed on them...............

Translation:

rubl: It's moving off topic but whilst I'm telling everyone else it's off topic, nobody minds if I carry on posting about something completely unrelated, do they................

rubl, you are shameless

[scorecard]

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Looks like thaksin needs to stir the bee's nest again due to his waning popularity.

This thaksin cartoon should not be called "looking at stars with feet on the ground" It should be called "Looking at stars through the bars of my cell" He was an unelectable leader of a party that purport to support democracy. Thats says it all.

I cannot blame him really for trying this media stunt after the failed 2014 election results that clearly reflected the public sentiment towards them (especially in the North and North East where there was no protests) after the failed rice scheme, the failed amnesty, the failed 2 trillion baht loan with no transparency, the water management scheme that the PTP refused to allow the public to be involved in. There is only so much disdain for the public by the PTP that the public can put up with before they retract their support. There certainly was a landslide in that 2014 election result. Unfortunately it covered the PTP up like a skiing victim on the snow slopes.

Of course some will refer to an election nearly 4 years ago to gauge the PTP popularity because that is all they have left to cling too. Never mind the nearly infinite polls and the 2014 failed election that showed otherwise. Not one poll, not one result from anywhere showed the PTP on the winning end of anything pertinent to winning an election. And unlike thaksin who knows this and admits to it, some of his ardent supporters still refuse to believe it by making up wonderful excuses for the failed 2014 election and all the polls that cover a cross section of Thailand. thaksin knows they are whimsical excuses so he is being proactive and he wants to snowball (excuse the pun) any efforts to ensure he is not a name of the past. He is scared now his popularity is waning. He is petrified.

Now the Reds are stirring again will that 7% fanatical minority come out purporting to represent the majority?

Rest assured if / when they lose the next election in 2015 thaksin and his supporters will not acknowledge that election result either. The excuses will be the "Junta this" and the "Junta that". Never ever does thaksin or his 7% minority followers ever support any result that does not go their way. When the result goes there way however (2011 election) they will cling to that result like a baby to her mothers teat.

In 60 years if / when the PTP have still not won an election the supporters will still say "The PTP are the majority, just look at the 2011 election results"!! That is PTP logic right there folks. Who says they have a short memory. Selective, yes. Short, no.

See you in Thailand tomorrow thaksin!

Rather than rely on your constant belittling (now where have I heard that before?) of what you perceive to be PTP Logic, which in reality is the imaginings of your fevered mind, let's have a look at a more cogent analysis of what would have happened in the February 2014 had it not been for the EC and suthep and his clowns.

Ultimately, what the early election results have shown is three things.

First, Pheu Thai will emerge as a “weakened” winner. There is no doubt that in both constituency and the PR systems, the incumbent will grasp electoral victory. What they have lost is support from the electorate, particularly some alarming results in the party strongholds in the North and Northeast.

The PDRC met with some success in mobilizing the No Vote and will take credit for the rest of the non-Pheu Thai votes in their next move to demonstrate the illegitimacy of Pheu Thai.

Third, Thai electorates have shown that despite the lower voter turnout, more than 50% of the country still wants to decide their government at the ballot box.

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2014/02/07/politics-of-electoral-protest-in-thailand/

As for an election in 2015 (if it happens), you have no idea what the junta picked NRC are going to come up with in order to load the decks for that election. So if the PTP lose that election they may well be quite within their rights to blame the junta and their underlings for the result.

Don't say it won't happen, abhisit changed the constitution before the 2011 Election to favour the dems with his raising of the number of party list MP's and reduction of constituency seats. That plan didn't work, probably because after 2010 abhisit was unelectable.

Well fabie, you win the award for longest 'hanging on' to a dying snake.

[mike324]

Thaksin and Yingluck are still very popular with the thai people and the junta knows it and I think there are deals being done int the background to allow a more peaceful transition of government with new rules for the politicians when the next election is announced.

Maybe there will be no red and yellow shirts or black and pink shirts but one thing for sure is when that day comes you can rest assured that if Thaksin and Yingluck are still around which they will be then it will be another landslide just as it has been in the past .

The junta knows this so compromises will be made on both sides maybe even allowing Thaksin to return and granted amnesty which would go along way to calming the situation and allowing Thailand to move ahead.

"even allowing Thaksin to return and granted amnesty which would go along way to calming the situation and allowing Thailand to move ahead."

You clearly do not remember, but less than 1 year ago, Thaksin tried to ram through his amnesty at 4am, which also would have freed from prison about 25,000 rapists, murderers and thieves. The effect of this could not be described as "calming", in fact it was the precursor to pure anarchy. Try again.

I believe the amnesty bill would not have freed rapists, murderers and thieves. It would only pardon the ones that fit the POLITICIAN category, corrupt and being sentence to trial. Either way, its absurd to free corrupt politicians who have swindle billions or ones who incite violence just so that the society can "heal". Bunch of BS, if they really did get their way our kids will grow up thinking as long as you have majority you can change the laws and write new laws as you wish and call it as a "reconciliation" effort.

What happen to finding all the killers and justice for the red shirt killed during the UDD crackdown that PTP leaders keep on preaching about? oops it doesn't matter as long as Thaksin can come home and all corrupt politicians are free, justice is served?

PTP has some decent politicians, but they are just going the wrong direction by following Thaksin.

[jpeg]

God this constant referencing Taksin is getting boring. Is there no one else out there as a contender for a civilian government? Preferably competent and with less of an inclination to fill their boots soon as they're in? Anyone?

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As for an election in 2015 (if it happens), you have no idea what the junta picked NRC are going to come up with in order to load the decks for that election. So if the PTP lose that election they may well be quite within their rights to blame the junta and their underlings for the result.

Don't say it won't happen, abhisit changed the constitution before the 2011 Election to favour the dems with his raising of the number of party list MP's and reduction of constituency seats. That plan didn't work, probably because after 2010 abhisit was unelectable.

If PTP lose the 2015 election (highly likely) there is no doubt that it will anybody's fault but their own. As they seem incapable of following election law, there will inevitably be an infraction or six, leading to claims of unfair courts and judicial coup, avidly supported by the paid propagandists of UDD.

Whether their 'democracy' schools will be able to incite/bribe enough of the gullible to march on BKK is another matter. This might be more difficult when the MIB case point out who was murdering them and on who's behalf.

Difficult to know where to start with this. Tell you what, I'll just say I disagree with you, it would be pointless arguing against such a mindset.

Well fabie you could start by sharing, in detail, the specific knowledge about democracy which is 'taught' in the red 'democracy schools', with added detail to show clearly that the lessons are focused on the specific subject of democracy and not biased in any way.

And please share what lessons are taught in the red democracy schools regard to the evils of corruption, all with encouragement to 'blow the whistle' / who to contact to report corruption., etc.

And perhaps you could also share in detail the specific policies of the paymaster and his employees in regard to the development of Thailand to gain a fairer society with a good quality of life for all Thais and with equal justice for all.

Waiting.

[taodao]

See the old familiar heads with their old familiar rhetoric

We'll you guys can sit there day in day out in front of your PC for hours on end writing the same the things you have been writing for years

You've obviously been an avid follower then of their writings with sitting in front of your PC for hours on end reading the same things you have been reading for years

[Fat Haggis]

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Looks like thaksin needs to stir the bee's nest again due to his waning popularity.

This thaksin cartoon should not be called "looking at stars with feet on the ground" It should be called "Looking at stars through the bars of my cell" He was an unelectable leader of a party that purport to support democracy. Thats says it all.

I cannot blame him really for trying this media stunt after the failed 2014 election results that clearly reflected the public sentiment towards them (especially in the North and North East where there was no protests) after the failed rice scheme, the failed amnesty, the failed 2 trillion baht loan with no transparency, the water management scheme that the PTP refused to allow the public to be involved in. There is only so much disdain for the public by the PTP that the public can put up with before they retract their support. There certainly was a landslide in that 2014 election result. Unfortunately it covered the PTP up like a skiing victim on the snow slopes.

Of course some will refer to an election nearly 4 years ago to gauge the PTP popularity because that is all they have left to cling too. Never mind the nearly infinite polls and the 2014 failed election that showed otherwise. Not one poll, not one result from anywhere showed the PTP on the winning end of anything pertinent to winning an election. And unlike thaksin who knows this and admits to it, some of his ardent supporters still refuse to believe it by making up wonderful excuses for the failed 2014 election and all the polls that cover a cross section of Thailand. thaksin knows they are whimsical excuses so he is being proactive and he wants to snowball (excuse the pun) any efforts to ensure he is not a name of the past. He is scared now his popularity is waning. He is petrified.

Now the Reds are stirring again will that 7% fanatical minority come out purporting to represent the majority?

Rest assured if / when they lose the next election in 2015 thaksin and his supporters will not acknowledge that election result either. The excuses will be the "Junta this" and the "Junta that". Never ever does thaksin or his 7% minority followers ever support any result that does not go their way. When the result goes there way however (2011 election) they will cling to that result like a baby to her mothers teat.

In 60 years if / when the PTP have still not won an election the supporters will still say "The PTP are the majority, just look at the 2011 election results"!! That is PTP logic right there folks. Who says they have a short memory. Selective, yes. Short, no.

See you in Thailand tomorrow thaksin!

Rather than rely on your constant belittling (now where have I heard that before?) of what you perceive to be PTP Logic, which in reality is the imaginings of your fevered mind, let's have a look at a more cogent analysis of what would have happened in the February 2014 had it not been for the EC and suthep and his clowns.

Ultimately, what the early election results have shown is three things.

First, Pheu Thai will emerge as a “weakened” winner. There is no doubt that in both constituency and the PR systems, the incumbent will grasp electoral victory. What they have lost is support from the electorate, particularly some alarming results in the party strongholds in the North and Northeast.

The PDRC met with some success in mobilizing the No Vote and will take credit for the rest of the non-Pheu Thai votes in their next move to demonstrate the illegitimacy of Pheu Thai.

Third, Thai electorates have shown that despite the lower voter turnout, more than 50% of the country still wants to decide their government at the ballot box.

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2014/02/07/politics-of-electoral-protest-in-thailand/

As for an election in 2015 (if it happens), you have no idea what the junta picked NRC are going to come up with in order to load the decks for that election. So if the PTP lose that election they may well be quite within their rights to blame the junta and their underlings for the result.

Don't say it won't happen, abhisit changed the constitution before the 2011 Election to favour the dems with his raising of the number of party list MP's and reduction of constituency seats. That plan didn't work, probably because after 2010 abhisit was unelectable.

Well fabie, you win the award for longest 'hanging on' to a dying snake.

I take it you never seen the news story a couple of weeks back about the Chinese chef who was going to cook a snake, chopped the head off it, but the severed head apparently managed to bite him, and he died..

There's a moral in there somewhere..

Unlike Chuck Norris who was bitten by a King Cobra and after 5 agonising days the cobra died!!

[Baerboxer]

Different situation now Jaidam to 12 months ago as it's a whole new ball game.

If you think the Shinawatras are just going to go away then you are sadly mistaken.They remain extremely popular and that is just a fact and I would prefer to see a deal done to allow Thaksin back otherwise the whole situation will just keep going around in circles.

Yes the situation is different, 12 months ago people were being attacked, assaulted and murdered for daring to oppose the Shins. Something which the Shin government did nothing to condemn, stop or arrest those responsible. Eventually they went too far and were kicked out, same as before.

You really think, given the slightest chance, they would behave any different? Of course not, their leader has and will not change.

I'm sure you are right, they won't go away, and will continue to attempt to put their family in full charge, or completely f@5K this country and its people trying.

[Baerboxer]

Thaksin and Yingluck are still very popular with the thai people and the junta knows it and I think there are deals being done int the background to allow a more peaceful transition of government with new rules for the politicians when the next election is announced.

Maybe there will be no red and yellow shirts or black and pink shirts but one thing for sure is when that day comes you can rest assured that if Thaksin and Yingluck are still around which they will be then it will be another landslide just as it has been in the past .

The junta knows this so compromises will be made on both sides maybe even allowing Thaksin to return and granted amnesty which would go along way to calming the situation and allowing Thailand to move ahead.

Popular with some of the Thai people - not the whole as you try to portray. And their "large minority" has more than likely reduced since the last election.

Allowing Thaksin back, after all he's done, and wiping the 15 outstanding criminal charges off the books? Not as if it's a few parking tickets is it? Granting amnesty to this manipulative, divisive,despot is not going to help break the cycle. He won't change or honor any agreement and compromise for long. The guy has shown over and over he lies and can't be trusted. It will however, send a strong message that crime, really big crime, pays and law and order, justice and a fair society is not going to happen. It certainly won't under a Shinwattra government.

[phuketlive]

An endless game...

[Baerboxer]

Thaksin and Yingluck are still very popular with the thai people

SOME Thai people... read: those easily bought/brainwashed.

As you wish. It doesn't make his point any less valid, though - an awful lot of people still do like them for whatever reason.

And an awful lot of people don't - so what's the point?

[fab4]

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As for an election in 2015 (if it happens), you have no idea what the junta picked NRC are going to come up with in order to load the decks for that election. So if the PTP lose that election they may well be quite within their rights to blame the junta and their underlings for the result.

Don't say it won't happen, abhisit changed the constitution before the 2011 Election to favour the dems with his raising of the number of party list MP's and reduction of constituency seats. That plan didn't work, probably because after 2010 abhisit was unelectable.

If PTP lose the 2015 election (highly likely) there is no doubt that it will anybody's fault but their own. As they seem incapable of following election law, there will inevitably be an infraction or six, leading to claims of unfair courts and judicial coup, avidly supported by the paid propagandists of UDD.

Whether their 'democracy' schools will be able to incite/bribe enough of the gullible to march on BKK is another matter. This might be more difficult when the MIB case point out who was murdering them and on who's behalf.

Difficult to know where to start with this. Tell you what, I'll just say I disagree with you, it would be pointless arguing against such a mindset.

Well fabie you could start by sharing, in detail, the specific knowledge about democracy which is 'taught' in the red 'democracy schools', with added detail to show clearly that the lessons are focused on the specific subject of democracy and not biased in any way.

And please share what lessons are taught in the red democracy schools regard to the evils of corruption, all with encouragement to 'blow the whistle' / who to contact to report corruption., etc.

And perhaps you could also share in detail the specific policies of the paymaster and his employees in regard to the development of Thailand to gain a fairer society with a good quality of life for all Thais and with equal justice for all.

Waiting.

Why not and while we're at it we can compare and contrast with attitude adjustment coffeee mornings with the Junta

I'm not sure that halloween was specifically talking about what occurs in the "red democracy schools" whether it be particular details of the alleged "lessons" or discussions on corruption. In fact I'm 100% sure that the only person who brought those subjects up was you - and with no relevance to his or my posts other than to detract from the thread. Likewise your last paragraph, relevance - none.

So you're going to be waiting a long time.