Ghosts

[autonomous_unit]

The point to consider about evaluating coincidence is that we are usually not prepared to evaluate things from an objective, statistically-meaningful standpoint. We make at least two common mistakes: first, we are usually biased and remember "positive" occurrences more than "negative", so things seem to happen more than they really do, relative to the background level of random sh*t going on; second, we make the understandably self-centered observation that what happens to us is special... we do not properly delineate the boundaries of the "experiment".

A statistician's view would have to look at all occurrences of apparent coincidences and false positives (people having a "funny feeling" that doesn't actually pan out with any coinciding event of note; but they would also have to look at a population and not an individual. This is due to a variant of the birthday paradox wherein things that seem unlikely from a particularly person's perspective are actually quite likely to happen to someone within a larger group. So a skeptic looks at all spooky moments and false spooky moments and decides whether they happen more than can be attributable to chance.

To play devil's advocate, I would attribute your door-knocking experience to a waking dream. I've had dreams where I incorporate sounds from the waking world, and also just-waking moments where I "sense" the last sounds of a dream, such as my wife's voice even though she has already left for work, or the sound of a vehicle in my dream. Similarly, I could attribute some hair-raising experiences to the cultural expectations and/or suggestibility of people. Is it a spooky presence, or just a draft through a leaky wall? Hanging around with paranoid and jumpy people will usually make you a bit jumpy too...

Things like having an intuition and then correlating it to your cousin's friend's aunt are great examples of distorted analysis. Kind of like the "7 degrees of Kevin Bacon", you have to look at all the relationships with a similar strength, multiplied by all the distinct or meaningful events in all these persons' lives, and then decide if anyone is really predicting or sensing any of this at a rate above the noise level. That is the analytical criteria: that these experiences happen more often than can be explained by chance events coinciding with chance sensations.

Note, I am not trying to convert anyone's beliefs, but adding to the earlier skeptical statement since an interest in a more analytical point of view was expressed. A purposeless, uncaring universe is not everyone's cup of tea.

[Neeranam]

There is no such thing as coincedence. Everything happens for a reason, and a result of something.

That's my belief anyway - same for ghosts, religion, Loch Ness Monster etc

[tourleadersi]

The point to consider about evaluating coincidence is that we are usually not prepared to evaluate things from an objective, statistically-meaningful standpoint. We make at least two common mistakes: first, we are usually biased and remember "positive" occurrences more than "negative", so things seem to happen more than they really do, relative to the background level of random sh*t going on; second, we make the understandably self-centered observation that what happens to us is special... we do not properly delineate the boundaries of the "experiment".

A statistician's view would have to look at all occurrences of apparent coincidences and false positives (people having a "funny feeling" that doesn't actually pan out with any coinciding event of note; but they would also have to look at a population and not an individual. This is due to a variant of the birthday paradox wherein things that seem unlikely from a particularly person's perspective are actually quite likely to happen to someone within a larger group. So a skeptic looks at all spooky moments and false spooky moments and decides whether they happen more than can be attributable to chance.

To play devil's advocate, I would attribute your door-knocking experience to a waking dream. I've had dreams where I incorporate sounds from the waking world, and also just-waking moments where I "sense" the last sounds of a dream, such as my wife's voice even though she has already left for work, or the sound of a vehicle in my dream. Similarly, I could attribute some hair-raising experiences to the cultural expectations and/or suggestibility of people. Is it a spooky presence, or just a draft through a leaky wall? Hanging around with paranoid and jumpy people will usually make you a bit jumpy too...

Things like having an intuition and then correlating it to your cousin's friend's aunt are great examples of distorted analysis. Kind of like the "7 degrees of Kevin Bacon", you have to look at all the relationships with a similar strength, multiplied by all the distinct or meaningful events in all these persons' lives, and then decide if anyone is really predicting or sensing any of this at a rate above the noise level. That is the analytical criteria: that these experiences happen more often than can be explained by chance events coinciding with chance sensations.

Note, I am not trying to convert anyone's beliefs, but adding to the earlier skeptical statement since an interest in a more analytical point of view was expressed. A purposeless, uncaring universe is not everyone's cup of tea.

Thankyou for taking the time to write such an excellent post.

All of it fits with the way I usually analyse such occurences. The only thing that was really different about this one was the sense of desperation I felt after is happened. So bad that I woke up my wife at 5am and called my parents close to midnight. Not something I ever do and both parties were concerned that I called like that as it was completely out of character. Normally takes a force 10 gale to make me flap.

Perhaps I was disturbed all day but what I thought had happened (someone needing my help but me being unable to give it) kind of like for a few seconds my nightmare had continued into the waking world....

[tutsiwarrior]

anybody ever spend any time in Bahrain? the whole place is on top of an ancient Sumerian burial ground (see Gilgamesh and references to 'Delmon'). Some weird things happened to me while I was there...I reckoned it had to be ghosts or a special un-ease caused by disturbing the dead...

whatever...when I fuk up it's usually someone else's fault...

boooo.....

[wilko]

The point to consider about evaluating coincidence is that we are usually not prepared to evaluate ................................................................................

................................................................................

...............

Note, I am not trying to convert anyone's beliefs, but adding to the earlier skeptical statement since an interest in a more analytical point of view was expressed. A purposeless, uncaring universe is not everyone's cup of tea.

Yeah! Wot he said!

[longway]

The point to consider about evaluating coincidence is that we are usually not prepared to evaluate ................................................................................

................................................................................

...............

Note, I am not trying to convert anyone's beliefs, but adding to the earlier skeptical statement since an interest in a more analytical point of view was expressed. A purposeless, uncaring universe is not everyone's cup of tea.

Yeah! Wot he said!

personally ive seen what i think were ghosts on 3 separate occasions when i was staying in a particular house. 2 times were very similar. i woke up suddenly in the middle of the night and saw a glowing white ball hanging in mid air for a second, then it dissapeared, in the sense it seemed to move very fast somewhere.

the 3rd time i got up to get a drink of water from the kitchen, from the door of my bedroom i saw a figure walk accross a doorway. i thought it was my grandmother and went to get my drink. while i was filling my glass the hairs on the back of my neck pricked up and i felt a deep chill go through me. i ran to my grandmother's room and asked her if she had been out of her room and she said no.

[justsignedin]

I got to thinking about ghosts a few nights ago when i lay in bed during a power cut. the occasional creaking and tapping around the house and outside set my mind racing, surprising just how quiet it is without any tv, aircon or fans etc. I guess i was starting to scare myself and i recalled a friend telling me about his and his wifes ghostly experiences. The usual, objects moving around, temperature changes, and a feeling of some presence. The friend in question is 100% sane and both he and his wife witnessed and experienced these events together. i also recall reading somewhere that if your mind is open you are more likely to see a ghost. Anyway the outcome is i have never seen a ghost and i doubt i ever will, but after hearing my friends story i will not dismiss ghosts to the land of make believe.

[Donz]

Are ghost real???

who knows and who cares. Everyone has there own beliefs, just like they do about a god

[meadish_sweetball]

i woke up suddenly in the middle of the night and saw a glowing white ball hanging in mid air for a second, then it dissapeared, in the sense it seemed to move very fast somewhere.

I've seen one of those as well, together with two friends, from a petrol station parking lot overlooking a field just south of Stockholm where we had a restroom/smoke stop after a long drive. The object was gone very quickly, but all three of us saw it clearly.

Although we were surprised, none of us felt anything spooky in particular though. My guess it was a type of ball lightning (although there was no thunderstorm, and it wasn't raining).

The object was about 40 meters away from us, about 5 meters up from the ground, travelling in a straight horizontal line over the field for 10 meters or so, then it suddenly disappeared.

[bino]

Three years ago a good friend of mine from the US who was working in Phuket woke up one morning and had a heart attack on his way to the shower, and passed away. Subsequently my GF and I spent 10 days in Phuket for the funeral, cremation, cleaning out his apartment, and shipping everything back to his family in the US.

When we arrived back to Bangkok and walked into my apartment, there was a sweet flowery perfume smell throughout the place. The small was strong, and in every room. My GF could smell it too, and told me that this is this was the ghost of my friend, who had followed me home and was showing his gratitude for taking care of him and his family.

It can't be explained away by rational thinking or logic because the apartment had been locked up tight and unoccupied for 10 days. A further check with the housekeeper revealed that she was there the day after we left, and had not been back because no one was there to mess anything up. So- no one had set foot in the apartment for 9 days.

I have told this story to many Thai people, and they all relate to the flower smell, tell me it is true.

Was I spooked? Not at all. If it was my friend, I am flattered by the experience knowing I did all right by him.

[Tingnongnoi]

Many years ago when I was younger I was staying at an Auntie's house and saw what I thought was someone move across the room when I woke in the night. A little while after that my Auntie was in her room early one evening and my Cousin called out to her from just outside the door "mummy who's this man coming up the stairs" she rushed out, but there was no one there.

[bkkmadness]

Many years ago when I was younger I was staying at an Auntie's house and saw what I thought was someone move across the room when I woke in the night. A little while after that my Auntie was in her room early one evening and my Cousin called out to her from just outside the door "mummy who's this man coming up the stairs" she rushed out, but there was no one there.

My little cousin (about 5 at the time) did a similar thing, she asked my Aunt who the woman was that came into her room. Of course there was no other woman in the house apart from my Aunt.

Got a few other stories too, but no time to tell now, perhaps tomorrow.

One thing I will say, is about the man of science, man of faith thing. A non beliver of ghosts may consider himself a man of science and consider another a man of faith because he's believes in the possibilty of ghosts, but to me thats just the wrong way round.

Over hundreds/thousands of years theres been reports of ghost sightings, even a thread like this will turn up some personal experiences of supposedly supernatural activity.

How can a man of science know this and not consider the possibilty of ghosts as a very real thing? Just because its not seen with his own eyes? That to me is a man of faith, a man who has so much faith in his own senses and beliefs that they cannot follow scientific reason that the possibilty of ghosts do exist, until it can be disproven.

There is no proof yet of ghosts. But does that mean they don't exist? Did neutrons and radioactivity and all those kind of things not exist until we found a way to measure them? If we find a way to detect ghosts will they suddenly exist only then?

There's too many stories, over too long a period of time to discount the existence of ghosts with such ease. In fact it seems foolish to do so, truely an act of a man of faith and certainly not an act of a man of science.

[meemiathai]

One thing I will say, is about the man of science, man of faith thing. A non beliver of ghosts may consider himself a man of science and consider another a man of faith because he's believes in the possibilty of ghosts, but to me thats just the wrong way round.

Over hundreds/thousands of years theres been reports of ghost sightings, even a thread like this will turn up some personal experiences of supposedly supernatural activity.

How can a man of science know this and not consider the possibilty of ghosts as a very real thing? Just because its not seen with his own eyes? That to me is a man of faith, a man who has so much faith in his own senses and beliefs that they cannot follow scientific reason that the possibilty of ghosts do exist, until it can be disproven.

There is no proof yet of ghosts. But does that mean they don't exist? Did neutrons and radioactivity and all those kind of things not exist until we found a way to measure them? If we find a way to detect ghosts will they suddenly exist only then?

There's too many stories, over too long a period of time to discount the existence of ghosts with such ease. In fact it seems foolish to do so, truely an act of a man of faith and certainly not an act of a man of science.

I have to disagree a bit here. What you are saying is similar to saying that human beings can fly, and just that you can't prove that certainly no human beings can or simply have not seen one flying, you are going to have doubt.

I was afraid of ghost when I was a kid like everyone else does. But as I grew older I start to realize that a lot of ghost stories were faked and are motives involved. As one sees the world more and understands the world more, one is going to find it more and more difficult to believe ghosts exist.

And of course I don't even believe in God.(no offense to any religion)

By the way, I am willing to pay if someone would lead me to see any ghosts.

[wilko]

A good way of ridding yourself of any ghostly delusions is to take some really powerful hallucinogenic drug...once you realise how incredibly realistic an hallucination can be you'll give up any ideas about ghosts, and just do what I do...jibber along to the fairies at the bottom of my garden

[wilko]

Many years ago when I was younger I was staying at an Auntie's house and saw what I thought was someone move across the room when I woke in the night. A little while after that my Auntie was in her room early one evening and my Cousin called out to her from just outside the door "mummy who's this man coming up the stairs" she rushed out, but there was no one there.

My little cousin (about 5 at the time) did a similar thing, she asked my Aunt who the woman was that came into her room. Of course there was no other woman in the house apart from my Aunt.

Got a few other stories too, but no time to tell now, perhaps tomorrow.

One thing I will say, is about the man of science, man of faith thing. A non beliver of ghosts may consider himself a man of science and consider another a man of faith because he's believes in the possibilty of ghosts, but to me thats just the wrong way round.

Over hundreds/thousands of years theres been reports of ghost sightings, even a thread like this will turn up some personal experiences of supposedly supernatural activity.

How can a man of science know this and not consider the possibilty of ghosts as a very real thing? Just because its not seen with his own eyes? That to me is a man of faith, a man who has so much faith in his own senses and beliefs that they cannot follow scientific reason that the possibilty of ghosts do exist, until it can be disproven.

There is no proof yet of ghosts. But does that mean they don't exist? Did neutrons and radioactivity and all those kind of things not exist until we found a way to measure them? If we find a way to detect ghosts will they suddenly exist only then?

There's too many stories, over too long a period of time to discount the existence of ghosts with such ease. In fact it seems foolish to do so, truely an act of a man of faith and certainly not an act of a man of science.

If you have an apparition why do you want to call it a "ghost"? there are many inexplicable things in the universe but why must they have pre-conceived names and meanings attached...why do you need to do this?

Edited July 19, 2006 by wilko

[meemiathai]

The friend in question is 100% sane and both he and his wife witnessed and experienced these events together.

Do not underestimate the drive for people, especially those who believe in ghosts, to lie a bit or exaggerate things to covince people the existence of ghosts. Also human beings lie to their ownselves on a daily basis due to a lot of reasons. Doesn't mean they are dishonest. Rather to ease their fear towards life.

[meemiathai]

I seem to remember watching tv somewhere once saying that there is a person who is willing to give out 1mil US dollars(or something like that) to anyone who can prove ghost. So far no one has won the trophy.

[bkkmadness]

I have to disagree a bit here. What you are saying is similar to saying that human beings can fly, and just that you can't prove that certainly no human beings can or simply have not seen one flying, you are going to have doubt.

It is similar, I give you that, but how many reports have you heard of people flying? And how many reports have you heard that have come from all points in history of ghostly activity. So many people have seemed to have had ghostly experiences that at some point you gotta start looking into it further.

If you have an apparition why do you want to call it a "ghost"? there are many inexplicable things in the universe but why must they have pre-conceived names and meanings attached...why do you need to do this?

You are quite right, I should have said something along the lines of supernatural activity or something similary broad. It was just a terminology I used coz of topic title, and the hour of the posting left me a little lazy too.

[bkkmadness]

For everyone here wikipedia as usual turns out a nice piece on ghosts

[moonoi]

For everyone here wikipedia as usual turns out a nice piece on ghosts

Wikipedia is a pile of junk. Don't rely on that as an authoritive source on information. Its proved to be factually incorrect on the vast majority of subjects. The main problem is that anyone can edit an article which may start out correct but over a short time other people who disagree change the content and it becomes useless. Just ask all those poor American students who relied on it for there studies and then failed!

Still interesting article even if you can't entirely trust its content.......

[meemiathai]

One thing I sometimes dream about is a sexy female ghost turning up suddenly when I am in my room alone. I don't have to say what goes on next, do I? The good thing is it makes me feel less guilty of infidelity, doesn't it?

Please, come and get me! I am waiting!

[Lez]

Your right Sam

His name is James Randi and is from the Sceptics Society

His $1million is for anyone that can prove the supernatural exists, under scientific conditions.

Many try they all fail.

Yuri Geller failed; he couldn’t bend spoons or any other of his claims to mental powers.

His million bucks in still in the bank

Lez

[barryofthailand]

One of my crazy and I really mean crazy Thai neighbors had her nephew living with her and her policeman husband. Anyway her nephew was killed one night on the corner of Sai Sam and Pattaya Thai road in pattay. They took him back to bangkok for the funeral. When they got back here his gohst kept waking them up at night, and would not let them sleep. They kept hearing him say show me the way home. She got some Monks from Surin to come down here and perform prayers in her house and show him the way home.

Believe it or not? Several people do believe this.

Barry

[meemiathai]

Your right Sam

His name is James Randi and is from the Sceptics Society

His $1million is for anyone that can prove the supernatural exists, under scientific conditions.

Many try they all fail.

Yuri Geller failed; he couldn’t bend spoons or any other of his claims to mental powers.

His million bucks in still in the bank

Lez

Thanks for confirming.

[meadish_sweetball]

For everyone here wikipedia as usual turns out a nice piece on ghosts

Wikipedia is a pile of junk. Don't rely on that as an authoritive source on information. Its proved to be factually incorrect on the vast majority of subjects. The main problem is that anyone can edit an article which may start out correct but over a short time other people who disagree change the content and it becomes useless. Just ask all those poor American students who relied on it for there studies and then failed!

Still interesting article even if you can't entirely trust its content.......

'Pile of junk' is a bit harsh, but you are right that things can be edited very easily. The idea is that this will eventually lead to something good. I tend to agree with their general viewpoint.

No text can be said to be completely biased because people write the texts, and no person is ever completely biased. Once you have established that fact and know that everything has to be double-checked, triple-checked etc. for factual value, you are on your way to find some pieces of truth, at least.

Personally I think Wikipedia is great as a general orientation service. In-depth knowledge should be sought elsewhere though.

[JRingo]

I have seen two ghosts inThailand.

Both were in my hotel room.

One was a gaint and couldn't stand up inside so walked around crouched in half.

The other ghost was a crazy baby which kept beating its' head against the wall.

Apparently, old hotels are full of ghosts since if people die un-natural deaths their

spirits "ghosts" hang aroung and have no where to go.

Seen them with my own two eyes.

To this day I won't stay in that hotel again.

If you are afraid of ghosts;

1. Always chose new hotels if you have an option.

2. Another idea is to have katoeys with you as ghosts are afraid of katoeys.

[chuchok]

I have seen two ghosts inThailand.

Both were in my hotel room.

One was a gaint and couldn't stand up inside so walked around crouched in half.

The other ghost was a crazy baby which kept beating its' head against the wall.

Apparently, old hotels are full of ghosts since if people die un-natural deaths their

spirits "ghosts" hang aroung and have no where to go.

Seen them with my own two eyes.

To this day I won't stay in that hotel again.

If you are afraid of ghosts;

1. Always chose new hotels if you have an option.

2. Another idea is to have katoeys with you as ghosts are afraid of katoeys.

[tourleadersi]

I have seen two ghosts inThailand.

Both were in my hotel room.

One was a gaint and couldn't stand up inside so walked around crouched in half.

The other ghost was a crazy baby which kept beating its' head against the wall.

Apparently, old hotels are full of ghosts since if people die un-natural deaths their

spirits "ghosts" hang aroung and have no where to go.

Seen them with my own two eyes.

To this day I won't stay in that hotel again.

If you are afraid of ghosts;

1. Always chose new hotels if you have an option.

2. Another idea is to have katoeys with you as ghosts are afraid of katoeys.

Not just ghosts are afraid mate.

[Cent]

Justsignedin,

I have a story in my Blog that relates to some of these Thai beliefs in my blog here. 'Under the Protection of the Three Brothers Pii'. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/blog/cent/index.php?

Also I have a couple more stories of my own experiences with ghosts in Thailand over on www.thailandstories.com

One titled 'I See Dead People' and another about my wife's grandfather's ghost titled "Grandpa Comes for a Visit' you might like to read if you are interested in this stuff.

Cent

[Cent]

Hahaha!

"2. Another idea is to have katoeys with you as ghosts are afraid of katoeys."

Uh, what if the ghost is the ghost of a katoey? Does this still work? Or is this just an excuse to sleep with katoeys?

Cent