Thai Students Win Academic Rewards

[aaaaaa]

I was pleased and surprised to get know this, since normally it is considered that Thais are not so good at sciences, and that average IQ is below norm!

Thai students win five academic Olympics gold medals

Thai secondary school students have won five gold medals over the past week at international academic Olympics for biology, maths and physics.

that means there are enough intelligent Thais out there !

[Donz]

Its good to see something positive about there studies instead of hearing "there degree's arent worth the paper ther writen on" garbage

[Sing_Sling]

Its good to see something positive about there studies instead of hearing "there degree's arent worth the paper ther writen on" garbage

Whoever says that Thai's IQ is below standard must be whacked, but this doesn't take away from the fact that the eductaion system sucks big hairy ones - doesn't matter how one looks at it.

Are there some schools and tertiary education facilities that are good? Of course.

Do the majority not reach an acceptable norm? Yes - can't hide your head in the sand.

Two different issues:

Poor educational facilities in general - - - Without a doubt!

Thais have a low IQ - - - total rubbish

[Donz]

yeah i would like to know where you got the information of them having lower IQ's then normal??

[chownah]

The fact that five gold medals were awarded to Thais at this olympic thing has absolutely no relevance concerning the intelligence or abilities of Thai people generally....nor does it have any relevance concerning the Thai educational system.....none whatsoever.

Edited July 17, 2006 by chownah

[Ijustwannateach]

Some Thai students are very good, indeed. There is every reason for them to be, considering all the money spent on their educations. The one Thai school named in the article is really, actually, considered to be the "best" Thai public school in Thailand, and there is fierce competition (and preparation) for entry there. It's a bit of a question of chicken and egg, though, whether they enter the school because they're smart or they're smart because they're students at the school- and usually only the rich need apply.

In general, even in the "public" schools of Thailand, the gap between the education of the rich and the poor tends to match the gap between their economic wealth.

[tourleadersi]

There are so many people who are happy to make such broad generalisations about others, the 'Thais have low IQ' brigade is one of them.

By combining generations of substandard education, a lifestyle that perhaps doesn't lend itself to lateral or 'outside the box' thinking and a general culture of non rebellion you will end up with an element of soceity who appear less intelligent. This does not make them stupid. If you park a new BMW in a garage for a few months it isn't a piece of junk, its still a new car. The fact that it isn't being used for its original purpose does not make it a Skoda.

The low IQ concept smacks of some kind of patronising eletist attitude that some adopt to help make themselves feel more important than they really are.

[lannarebirth]

The data with regard to faling IQ's is published annually. The Queen is quite distressed about this issue and I read in the newspaper, last time these numbers came out, she feared the trend might be irreversible. I disagree with her worst fears, but it will take a lot of dedication to change the current educational system. Maybe a lot less sugar in the diet too.

[tourleadersi]

So the low IQ thing is an actual published fact? That I did not know so I appologise for some of my earlier comments. Still think IQ is like mental fitness. If you took a 100 people and measured their fitness, and then sent them off to boot camp, the results would be different a few weeks later. Same with IQ I think. Take a 100 people and intensively educate them and the majority will get higher IQs a few weeks later. Or am I off the mark again?

[meadish_sweetball]

Education does influence the results on IQ tests, yes.

An article I read recently stated that 50% - 70 % of a person's IQ is genetic predisposition, and the remainder is due to environmental factors. This was established by studying monozygotic (identical) twins who had grown up in different families.

[tourleadersi]

I did a few IQ tests recently just out of curiosity. Problem was I didn't know what the results meant! It took me ages to find a website that told me the spread of IQs, what is low and high etc...

Goes to show, information is useless unless you know what it means.

[leftcross]

the IQ test just tells you how good you are at IQ tests, that's all.

[otherstuff1957]

IQ tests usually measure deductive reasoning and logic. The Thai educational system is geared more toward rote memorization than encouraging independent thought. If a student is not taught to use their mind in a certain way and is then tested on how well they use their minds in that manner, well, poor results are not surprising.

If IQ tests were simply regurgitating facts, Thai students would probably do much better. However, fact based IQ tests were abandoned years ago as being culturally biased.

[tourleadersi]

the IQ test just tells you how good you are at IQ tests, that's all.

I agree, and yet they are used a lot in the west to assist in job allocations. Unless the job involves recognising the odd one out, circle, square, rectangle and triangle then it is not the right way to go. Companies should look at a more 'specific to the job' test. My last company that I worked for set a series of questions that were an absolute nightmare, and were all scenario based and relevant to the job that I got. All my answers were wrong in the test, but they liked the way that I thought. As they said, "we will now teach you how to think our way."

Interestingly I also did a memory test and I am a complete dufus according to them.

[Donz]

the IQ test just tells you how good you are at IQ tests, that's all.

yes that is true

[Jai Dee]

Thai students swept 15 medals from the Biology, Mathematics and Physics Olympiads

Thai students bag five gold medals, eight silvers and two bronzes altogether in the Biology, Mathematics and Physics Olympiads this month.

Surin Pongsupasamit (สุรินทร์ พงศ์ศุภสมิทธิ์), director of the Science and Technology Education Promotion Institute, said Thai representatives placed first in the world in the competitions at the 2006 Biology Olympiads in Argentina between July 9 and 16, sweeping three gold and one silver medals.

At the Mathematics Olympiads in Slovenia from July 6 to 18, Thai students won one gold, three silvers and two bronzes and at the Physics Olympiads in Singapore between July 8 and 17, another one gold and four silvers, Mr. Surin said.

He said all winners come from Triam-udom Sueksa (เตรียมอุดมศึกษา), Mahidolwitthayanusorn (มหิดลวิทยานุสรณ์), Chulalongkorn University Demonstration, Suan Kularb (สวนกุหลาบ) and St. Gabriel schools.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 17 July 2006

[chownah]

Having pursued a teaching career and attended a university to that end, I have learned about IQ tests and the bottom line is that they can show general trends about certain things it is not clearly defined just exactly what is being measured....I won't go into the details about this unless someone prompts me....please don't

I do think thought that IQ results for groups of people can shed some light on some things. Two things that have been shown to lower IQ scores when studying groups of individuals are: 1. Fetal alcohol syndrome...caused by a pregnant woman drinking alcohol while pregnant...even small amounts can have noticeable negative impacts, and 2. Nutrition of pregnant women and their offspring all through early childhood.

Now consider how these two well documented items might be operative in Thai culture. The good news here is that even people who were impaired during childhood from these conditionsdo not automatically pass the deficit on generationally and can have totally normal offspring if they avoid drinking during pregnancies and if they obtain adequate nutrition.

Edited July 17, 2006 by chownah

[Old Man River]

yeah i would like to know where you got the information of them having lower IQ's then normal??

Donz, while I have not read that Thai students have below average IQ's, I have read that their average IQ scores are declining. This has been one barometer used to highlight the importance of changes in the existing educational systems.

[quadricorrelator]

yeah i would like to know where you got the information of them having lower IQ's then normal??

Donz, while I have not read that Thai students have below average IQ's, I have read that their average IQ scores are declining. This has been one barometer used to highlight the importance of changes in the existing educational systems.

Its good to see something positive about there studies instead of hearing "there degree's arent worth the paper ther writen on" garbage

Whoever says that Thai's IQ is below standard must be whacked, but this doesn't take away from the fact that the eductaion system sucks big hairy ones - doesn't matter how one looks at it.

Are there some schools and tertiary education facilities that are good? Of course.

Do the majority not reach an acceptable norm? Yes - can't hide your head in the sand.

Two different issues:

Poor educational facilities in general - - - Without a doubt!

Thais have a low IQ - - - total rubbish

The Thai Education Ministry reported that Thai IQ had dropped from 92 to 89 during the years 1996 to 2001, and planned to take urgent action to rectify this problem. It was reported in the Bangkok Post in August of 2003.

The article is here:

http://www.rism.ac.th/clinic/bulletin/bulletin0803.pdf

[ronw]

the IQ test just tells you how good you are at IQ tests, that's all.

Will Rogers had it right......he said "IQ testing is just like we weighed pigs! You tie the pig to a plank of wood.....put the plank across a fence.....find a rock which will balance the pig........

Then......you guess the weight of the rock"

[Old Man River]

yeah i would like to know where you got the information of them having lower IQ's then normal??

Donz, while I have not read that Thai students have below average IQ's, I have read that their average IQ scores are declining. This has been one barometer used to highlight the importance of changes in the existing educational systems.

Its good to see something positive about there studies instead of hearing "there degree's arent worth the paper ther writen on" garbage

Whoever says that Thai's IQ is below standard must be whacked, but this doesn't take away from the fact that the eductaion system sucks big hairy ones - doesn't matter how one looks at it.

Are there some schools and tertiary education facilities that are good? Of course.

Do the majority not reach an acceptable norm? Yes - can't hide your head in the sand.

Two different issues:

Poor educational facilities in general - - - Without a doubt!

Thais have a low IQ - - - total rubbish

The Thai Education Ministry reported that Thai IQ had dropped from 92 to 89 during the years 1996 to 2001, and planned to take urgent action to rectify this problem. It was reported in the Bangkok Post in August of 2003.

The article is here:

http://www.rism.ac.th/clinic/bulletin/bulletin0803.pdf

Thanks for coming up with this.

[PeaceBlondie]

I like chownah's explanation, above on this page. IQ tests measure something that's hard to define or describe, having to do with how well you can think (especially abstractly) and possibly how well you can learn. It does not measure how much you already understand.

As others have pointed out, these types of thinking are not stressed in traditional Thai culture or education. It is not known how reliable the testing is in Thailand, or whether somebody cheats on reporting the results, but the reported scores appear to be declining.

Thailand will never enter the 21st century global economy with a student population of lower than average IQ scores, taught the old fashioned Thai way. It's doubtful that any practical solutions will be made effective within a generation or two, by which time the global economy will have surpassed all hubs in Thailand.

Neverhtheless, we can encourage those who have influence over the educational system to teach Thai students to think. Even 'outside the box' which is the box of the hub of Thainess.

[quadricorrelator]

You are welcome.

I remember the article from when it came out. I was shocked at the time.

I had heard many arguments regarding Thai IQ, but never saw any data. I don't have any information about who did the study, or about any criticisms of the study. And, I believe that many people still debate about the validity of IQ as a measure of intelligence, but at least it is something.

It was disturbing because a deviation of 10 points in average IQ produces very large differences in high IQ density out at the tails of the Bell curve (due to the shape of the Bell curve, it drops off much more quickly than an exponential curve). The density of high IQ people is important because it is often those people who will run the country.

To give an example of the dramatic effect of changes in average IQ on high IQ density: An IQ reduction from 100 to 85 will cause people with IQs greater than 135 to be reduced by a factor of 42.

Edited July 17, 2006 by quadricorrelator

[Old Man River]

I am not an educator, so this is very much a layman's question. Living in Bangkok, I have noticed a large increase in the number of international schools in just a few short years. I would think it would be the same in Thailand's other major cities. Will Thai nationals attending international schools be represented at all in Thailand's national educational exams? I don't know if the number will matter (although it is on the increase), but I would think that many of these kids would score pretty well on the countrywide exams if they were given in English.

[chownah]

"To give an example of the dramatic effect of changes in average IQ on high IQ density: An IQ reduction from 100 to 85 will cause people with IQs greater than 135 to be reduced by a factor of 42."

This type of an analysis comes from studying the mathematical model used in the statistical analysis. There is absolutely no way that the change in the average IQ of a population can make any one or any group of people have lower IQ's.....the calculation of statistics in and of itself has no effect on the people the statistic is drawn from. If the average IQ in a population declines then there must be some underlying reason out in the real world for this change and it is best to look out in the real world to find what that is. For instance....if a population one year had an average IQ of 100 but then there was a drought that lasted for several years and a generation of malnourished babies was raised by the poorer half of the population...but the nourishment level in the upper half was not affected, then the average IQ would drop but the distribution of IQ's at the upper end would (all else being equal) not change. This is an example to secifically refute the quote I've reproduced above.

[quadricorrelator]

"To give an example of the dramatic effect of changes in average IQ on high IQ density: An IQ reduction from 100 to 85 will cause people with IQs greater than 135 to be reduced by a factor of 42."

This type of an analysis comes from studying the mathematical model used in the statistical analysis. There is absolutely no way that the change in the average IQ of a population can make any one or any group of people have lower IQ's.....the calculation of statistics in and of itself has no effect on the people the statistic is drawn from. If the average IQ in a population declines then there must be some underlying reason out in the real world for this change and it is best to look out in the real world to find what that is. For instance....if a population one year had an average IQ of 100 but then there was a drought that lasted for several years and a generation of malnourished babies was raised by the poorer half of the population...but the nourishment level in the upper half was not affected, then the average IQ would drop but the distribution of IQ's at the upper end would (all else being equal) not change. This is an example to secifically refute the quote I've reproduced above.

Hi chownah,

May I respond to three separate points I think you are making?

1. You say "that there is no way that a change in average IQ of a population can make anyone or any group of people have lower IQs."

I apologize if I gave the impression that I believe statistics causes something to change or occur. I don't believe that. I think that statistics, if used properly, can predict with some accuracy level, the percentage of people with various intelligence levels. I do not believe that statistical analysis causes anything physical to occur.

2. Statistics will give inaccurate results if applied incorrectly. In this case, I do not know the statistical distributions so I made some assumptions based on my memory of statistical distributions for IQs. I apologize for failing to state my assumptions explicitly.

If I assume that the statistical distribution is a Bell Curve, as I have, and it is not a Bell Curve (as I think you have in your example), then I will get incorrect results.

The Bell Curve assumption was not stated in the Bangkok Post article. I made the assumption based on memories I have about statistics of IQs. I made the assumption that the population is distributed according to a Bell Curve and that the IQ standard deviation is 15 points based on my memory of IQ statistics.

3. I certainly agree with you, that any change in IQ must be a result of some underlying change in the population. I don't think an average change in IQ of a large population can change for no reason.

Having said all this, let me take another shot at making my point. Please correct me if it still has problems.

Given two distinct populations, each having a Bell Curve distribution for intelligence with a standard deviation of 15 points, and one population has a mean IQ which is 85, while the other has a mean IQ of 100, then the percentage of people having IQs greater than 135 will be 42 times higher in the population with a mean IQ of 100.

How would this statement apply to Thailand or any other country if the assumptions were true?

If, for a moment, you will allow me to assume that the premises are correct, then the predictions for the difference in percentage of high IQ individuals are dramatic. It would mean that the pool of high IQ individuals from which you could draw would be 42 times greater in the higher mean IQ population. The higher IQ population would have a much greater chance of finding smarter doctors, engineers, country leaders, etc. It would seem to be a great intellectual advantage for the country.

Of course, this assumes a Bell Curve IQ distribution as well as the other assumptions I have made. I don't know these to be true, and I use them only because it is my best guess based on my memory of IQ statistics.

I don't know if the Thai Education Ministry was concerned for the same reason I am concerned. They felt it was an urgent problem according to the bulletin, but they didn't go into detail.

-q

Edited July 17, 2006 by quadricorrelator

[Old Man River]

"To give an example of the dramatic effect of changes in average IQ on high IQ density: An IQ reduction from 100 to 85 will cause people with IQs greater than 135 to be reduced by a factor of 42."

This type of an analysis comes from studying the mathematical model used in the statistical analysis. There is absolutely no way that the change in the average IQ of a population can make any one or any group of people have lower IQ's.....the calculation of statistics in and of itself has no effect on the people the statistic is drawn from. If the average IQ in a population declines then there must be some underlying reason out in the real world for this change and it is best to look out in the real world to find what that is. For instance....if a population one year had an average IQ of 100 but then there was a drought that lasted for several years and a generation of malnourished babies was raised by the poorer half of the population...but the nourishment level in the upper half was not affected, then the average IQ would drop but the distribution of IQ's at the upper end would (all else being equal) not change. This is an example to secifically refute the quote I've reproduced above.

Hi chownah,

May I respond to three separate points I think you are making?

1. You say "that there is no way that a change in average IQ of a population can make anyone or any group of people have lower IQs."

I apologize if I gave the impression that I believe statistics causes something to change or occur. I don't believe that. I think that statistics, if used properly, can predict with some accuracy level, the percentage of people with various intelligence levels. I do not believe that statistical analysis causes anything physical to occur.

2. Statistics will give inaccurate results if applied incorrectly. In this case, I do not know the statistical distributions so I made some assumptions based on my memory of statistical distributions for IQs. I apologize for failing to state my assumptions explicitly.

If I assume that the statistical distribution is a Bell Curve, as I have, and it is not a Bell Curve (as I think you have in your example), then I will get incorrect results.

The Bell Curve assumption was not stated in the Bangkok Post article. I made the assumption based on memories I have about statistics of IQs. I made the assumption that the population is distributed according to a Bell Curve and that the IQ standard deviation is 15 points based on my memory of IQ statistics.

3. I certainly agree with you, that any change in IQ must be a result of some underlying change in the population. I don't think an average change in IQ of a large population can change for no reason.

Having said all this, let me take another shot at making my point. Please correct me if it still has problems.

Given two distinct populations, each having a Bell Curve distribution for intelligence with a standard deviation of 15 points, and one population has a mean IQ which is 85, while the other has a mean IQ of 100, then the percentage of people having IQs greater than 135 will be 42 times higher in the population with a mean IQ of 100.

How would this statement apply to Thailand or any other country if the assumptions were true?

If, for a moment, you will allow me to assume that the premises are correct, then the predictions for the difference in percentage of high IQ individuals are dramatic. It would mean that the pool of high IQ individuals from which you could draw would be 42 times greater in the higher mean IQ population. The higher IQ population would have a much greater chance of finding smarter doctors, engineers, country leaders, etc. It would seem to be a great intellectual advantage for the country.

Of course, this assumes a Bell Curve IQ distribution as well as the other assumptions I have made. I don't know these to be true, and I use them only because it is my best guess based on my memory of IQ statistics.

I don't know if the Thai Education Ministry was concerned for the same reason I am concerned. They felt it was an urgent problem according to the bulletin, but they didn't go into detail.

-q

Q, your knowledge of statistics is multiples higher than mine (standard deviation of zero). On a completely dfferent issue, as it relates to political issues, the ABAC polls have disclosed that their samples were based on respondents in Bangkok, only, but as far as we know have not disclosed a standard deviation. Would you happen to know what SD they were using?

[chownah]

Quadricorrelator,

I think you are very close to being correct here although I haven't checked your actual numbers yet....maybe I'll look on the internet for a statistics site to see if I can verify them. I would like to point out that a population with a mean of 85 and a std. dev of 15 will not have the same shape as a population with a mean of 100 and a std. dev of 15 because 15 is bigger relative to 85 than it is to 100. If you want the bell curves to have the same shape then you need to have a mean of 85 and a std. dev. of approximately 12 (85%of 15) to compare with a mean of 100 and a std. dev. of 15. I am not a statistician but I'm reasonably sure that this is correct....not absolutely sure.

Chownah

P.S. There is another factor to consider....since IQ's are only allowed from 0 to 200 then if the mean is not exactly 100 then there is a bias which would, even in theory mean that a distribution based on a mean other than 100 would not be symmetrical and therefore not bell shaped. Another confounding factor is that it is difficult to measure IQ's of less than 20 since this would indicate animal like behavior I guess....but of course we are discussing a scenario with a well defined mathematical distribution and not a totally realistic one.

Chownah

Edited July 17, 2006 by chownah

[chownah]

Quadricorrelator,

I think that my talk about changing the std. dev. is incorrect and you your scenerio is correct in that the two normal distributions you describe will have the same shape. Assuming that your std. dev of 15 IQ points is appropriate, it will be fairly easy to analyze a situation using an IQ score of 130 as the comparison point since it is the point defining two standard deviations above the mean for the population with mean of 100 and it will be 3 std. dev. above the mean for the population with mean 85. I'm haveing internet problems so I'll add this post now and hopefully be able to come back with some more data in a few minutes.

Chownah

I'm back with this....for the mean 85 std dev 15 and a cut off of 130 this is 3 std dev above the mean and this contains 0.135% of the population....for the mean 100 std dev 15 cut off of 130 this is two std. dev above the mean and this contains 2.275% of the population....the ratio of these percents would indicate there would be 16.85 times as many people with IQ over 130 in the population with mean of 100 than there would be with a mean of 85. Not as drastic as your scenario but pushing the cut off to 135 would push it further toward your number of 42 but I haven't been able to verify if 42 is infact correct. I'll go back out and see if I can come up with some more data.

Chownah

I just found a site that shows the normal curve for the Stanford-Binet IQ scores and they show a mean of 100 and 2 std dev above the mean is shown as 132 so this is right between your 135 and my 130.

Chownah

I do want to emphasize that this is all hypothetical since it is unlikely that any causative agent for a shift in average IQ scores for a nation would be evenly distributed across the entire IQ range...I think that this is almost impossible so our discussion is theoretic in my opinion.

Chownah

Edited July 17, 2006 by chownah

[bannork]

If Thai IQs are so low how come so many girls with a minimum education of primary school or junior high school can fool so many farangs into parting with their assets?

Just today I heard the story of a UK resident who gave his girlfriend 250,000 baht to open a salon, once the money was in her account it was bye bye darling.

I think these IQ tests need to include factors particular to Thailand, at least for women and aspiring women; namely how long they took to transfer their foreign partner,'gig', 'guest' or 'client''s assets into their account.