Madrid Bombings And Spains Support In Iraq

[Thaiquila]

The issue is big in Spain and also being discussed in the US.

Assuming the Madrid bombers were Islamic terrorists (looks likely), do people think this bombing would have ever happened if Spain had not joined the coalition to invade Iraq? And given that it is now clear that the Iraq war was uneccessary, and the resources would have been better spent fighting Al Queda and other Islamic terrorists, is Bush culpable?

[Jeepz]

I think it is unlikely that Spain would have been chosen now. But that Spain was potentially a target regardless of their participation, yes, at some point. The people (Islamic fundamentalists) that want to run the US and other western powers/influence out of the middle east have mentioned they feel that southern Spain is really theirs and should be reconquered.

It's not on the forefront of their agenda, but more a long range goal supposedly. Small solace to those that were wounded or maimed in the recent attack, even less so for those that loss loved ones.

The current Spanish government has a vested interest in pointing the finger at the ETA until the election is over, at the very least. An attack by the ETA would likely gain them votes among the Spanish population. However, an attack by AQ would cost them votes because the attack would have stemmed (supposedly) from Spain's participation in Iraq.

Jeepz

[Boon Mee]

First off, what Spanish should do is bring back a strong leader like Francisco Franco who don't mess around with terrorists. Let loose the old Guardia Civil and we'll see how long the Al Queda types hang around.

As far as more blood on Bush's hands - what a red-herring! The war in Iraq unecessary? Well, Saddam might agree with that statement and perhaps Kaddafi who got sh1t-scared of the Bush doctrine of "take the war to them" and gave up his Nukes.

The war on terrorism won't be over any time soon - we just got to beat them into submission...

[Membrane]

Thaiquila, you never cease to amaze me.... How you twist world events to fit your anti-Bush views are laughable. The Islamic fundamentalist extremist terrorists are clearly on an agenda to make Americans unwelcome in any and every country that has anything to do with them. Hey--isn't it clear to you yet? LOOK--it's the AL-QUAEDA TERRORISTS who are the ones who are bullying and killing innocent people world-wide, and yet you DARE to ask if Bush has "more blood on his hands"?? What kind of stupid twisted "logic" is that?

What has YOUR country done to stamp out terrorism? Or do you WANT it? You certainly seem to be here only to spread pro-terrorist/anti-Bush propaganda.

And don't think you're being too clever, with trying to snake your sick reasoning inside of your other twisted views (your quote, not mine: "given that it is now clear that the Iraq war was uneccessary"). I'll ignore for a minute although I KNOW this is just red herring and say--Do you have to have everything explained to you? Saddam was/has been a "bad guy" for a long time, waging war on his neighbors and hard-headedly trying to build WMDs for future confrontations. Are you familiar with the "Bush Doctrine"? Basically, that says that--after 9/11--the U.S. now isn't going to wait to be hit again to nullify threats to itself before they have a chance to strike. Saddam was given a chance to show he had no WMDs, and he blew his chance. He was playing a dangerous bluffing game with a hard-headed, no-nonsense man from Texas--and he lost, he lost everything--his reign of terror, his wealth, his two sons.. he lost big-time....

End of discussion.

[Boon Mee]

Membrane~

I really think Taiquila is "trolling" - just trying to get us rational, objective thinkers pissed off.

It's like about a week ago, Adjan jd posted a comment that stated he was personally happy that the World Trade Center went down. I bit to that one but forgot the dude is from the one of those Axis of Weasel countries...

[Thaiquila]

I will respond to these points here.

1. My posting was biased towards my point of view. Are your postings also not biased towards your point of view? Can't take a different point of view?

2. The vast majority of the people of Spain freely voted in a FREE ELECTION and basically AGREED with the tenor of my post. The opinion in my post is a MAJORITY OPINION in the great country of Spain, so ignore the lessons of this at your own peril. See the Washington Post clip at the bottom of this post.

3. Anyone who extols the virtues of ruthless fascist Spanish dictator FRANCO is a bloody idiot and not worthy of any further comment.

4. I personally support a vigourous, ruthless, attack on all Islamic terrorists. I abhor the bombers in New York and the bombers in Madrid. Iraq had NOTHING to do with 911; and Bush has publicly admitted as much.

5. There is ample evidence that Bush PREPLANNED the invasion of Iraq from the very first days of his regime. That was BEFORE the Al Queda attacks. The attacks provided justification for Bush.

6. Bushs' radical PREEMPTIVE STRIKE policy is a RADICAL DEPARTURE from the history of US foreign policy. Most of the world is appalled at that policy. A large percentage of Americans are also appalled.

7. The war in Iraq is proven to be uneccesary in regards to the LACK OF WMDs and the fact that there was NO DIRECT THREAT to the United States.

8. Bush does have blood on his hands. The innocent Iraqi victims of the war, the American soldiers sent to die to fight in a war against a country that was not a direct threat to the US.

Bushs' cowboy ethics are an issue that will not go away. The upcoming US election is probably the most important in US history.

From the Washington Post:

Many voters blamed outgoing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's staunch support of the U.S.-led war in Iraq for a series of rush-hour bombings on commuter trains in Madrid Thursday that left 200 persons dead. The government's initial response to the attacks further fueled popular anger, generating accusations that it had withheld information and attempted to manipulate public opinion about the terror attacks before the elections.

[singa-traz]

First off, what Spanish should do is bring back a strong leader like Francisco Franco who don't mess around with terrorists. Let loose the old Guardia Civil and we'll see how long the Al Queda types hang around.

Is that a (bad) joke ?

[Membrane]

Membrane~

I really think Taiquila is "trolling" - just trying to get us rational, objective thinkers pissed off.

Yeah Boon Mee, he must be trolling. There's no other explanation for that kind of stupi--er--"thinking". He's foolishly missing the point of my post, i.e., that he's blaming everything the terrorists do from now on, on "Bush".

I mean, it's so obvious the average man on the street in Spain is being manipulated and played by Al-Q (and very successfully). Al-Q wants the old Spanish government voted out of office because they cooperated with the U.S. in the fight against terrorism. So they bomb the trains, cause a huge public outcry and thereby coerce the average person into voting the old government out and a new one in, one that won't be so quick to cooperate with the U.S.

So with one fell swoop, they ingeniously removed one entire countries support for the U.S.... Very clever.. And so very obvious! Why Thaiquila or anyone else would look at that and not see it, is beyond me.

Freaking unbelievable!

And another thing--Thaiquila and his kind claim to "abhor terrorism", etc., and yet they consistently focus their attention solely on "Bush", always complaining about "Bush", beating their drums against "Bush"... WHEN IN REALITY, IT'S THE TERRORISTS WHO ARE THE BAD GUYS! Why is it Thaiquila and his kind NEVER COMPLAIN ABOUT THE TERRORISTS or their tactics?? Really! It's always a one-sided complaint: "America is the bad guy" or "Bush is the bad guy"--when really, the U.S. is simply reacting to what the terrorists have already started!

Honestly, sometimes I halfway suspect this forum has been infiltrated by pro-Islamic terrorist supporters, whose job it is to raise doubt about the U.S.and it's intentions, generate fear, distrust and anger, propagate rumours and misinformation, etc. When you look at the posts of individuals like Thaiquila, Butterfly, and others, it starts to look like a planned, coordinated effort to do just that...

[adjan jb]

It's like about a week ago, Adjan jd posted a comment that stated he was personally happy that the World Trade Center went down. I bit to that one but forgot the dude is from the one of those Axis of Weavel countries.

A weavel ? What is it ?

[Ulysses G.]

It's like about a week ago, Adjan jd posted a comment that stated he was personally happy that the World Trade Center went down.  I bit to that one but forgot the dude is from the one of those Axis of Weavel countries.

A weavel ? What is it ?

Parasite would probably be a reasonable translation.

[Ulysses G.]

Thaiquila, you never cease to amaze me....  How you twist world events to fit your anti-Bush views are laughable.

 

Hey--isn't it clear to you yet?  LOOK--it's the AL-QUAEDA TERRORISTS who are the ones who are bullying and killing innocent people world-wide, and yet you DARE to ask if Bush has "more blood on his hands"??  What kind of stupid twisted "logic" is that?

What has YOUR country done to stamp out terrorism? 

Don't ever forget that, as hard as it is to believe, Thaiquila contends that he is American. What is the old saying?

"With countrymen like this, we certainly don't need any enemies".

As for his statement

There is ample evidence that Bush PREPLANNED the invasion of Iraq from the very first days of his regime. That was BEFORE the Al Queda attacks. The attacks provided justification for Bush.

This is the one thing that Thaiquila had to say, that might have some substance, however the reason that Bush wanted to attack Iraq had nothing to do with Daddy or even oil.

Saddam had defied many UN resolutions and had been warned repeatedly to prove that he didn't have WMDs. His defiance gave Bush good reason to attack Iraq and turn it into the first real Arab democracy.

If Bush and Blair can accomplish this, they will be well on the road to solving the whole Middle East problem.

Who else has come close to that?

[adjan jb]

however the reason that Bush wanted to attack Iraq had nothing to do with Daddy or even oil.

Saddam had defied many UN resolutions

If defying the UN resolutions was the reason to go to war, I guess your next target is Israel.

(As Bush has always thought that the UN is irrelevant, your comment doesn't make sense.)

[adjan jb]

"With countrymen like this, we certainly don't need any enemies".

Were you talking of Bush ?

[adjan jb]

[/. His defiance gave Bush good reason to attack Iraq and turn it into the first real Arab democracy.

If Bush and Blair can accomplish this, they will be well on the road to solving the whole Middle East problem.

Who else has come close to that?

But as they are failing, we are ALL on the road to ######.

[sbk]

First off, what Spanish should do is bring back a strong leader like Francisco Franco who don't mess around with terrorists. Let loose the old Guardia Civil and we'll see how long the Al Queda types hang around.

Tens to hundreds of thousands killed. One source says 500,000 killed in the Spanish Civil War, another claims two million executed alone. More sober estimates for executions put the figure at 35,000 killed either summarily or after a hasty court martial.

commander-in-chief of the armed forces, head of state, and leader of the government, Franco quickly acts to impose order, suppressing all those who present a potential threat to the new regime. A state of martial law remains in effect until 1948. Hundreds of thousands of republicans are imprisoned and thousands are summarily executed.

Criticism is regarded as treason, political parties are outlawed, universal suffrage is eliminated, and the Catholic Church is restored as the official religion of Spain. The National Movement is made the country's only legal political organisation and the parliament is turned into the executive's puppet. Civil marriage is banned, divorce and abortion are made illegal, and religious education becomes compulsory in schools. Most of reformist legislation introduced by the republicans is revoked. Strikes are banned, the media is muzzled, and the moves towards granting autonomy to Catalonia and the Basque provinces are reversed.

Still think Franco was a good thing Boon Mee? Suspect you need to study your history first.

[adjan jb]

Now Bush should go to Spain and tell the Spaniards that 200 of them were killed because he is so successful in his war against terrorism. That's exactly what he said to justify the growing number of American casualties in Iraq, isn't it ?

[Ulysses G.]

however the reason that Bush wanted to attack Iraq had nothing to do with Daddy or even oil.

Saddam had defied many UN resolutions

If defying the UN resolutions was the reason to go to war, I guess your next target is Israel.

(As Bush has always thought that the UN is irrelevant, your comment doesn't make sense.)

Israel is on our side, and whether the UN is irrelevant, or not, we wanted those resolutions enforced, and we enforced them.

[adjan jb]

however the reason that Bush wanted to attack Iraq had nothing to do with Daddy or even oil.

Saddam had defied many UN resolutions

If defying the UN resolutions was the reason to go to war, I guess your next target is Israel.

(As Bush has always thought that the UN is irrelevant, your comment doesn't make sense.)

Israel is on our side, and whether the UN is irrelevant, or not, we wanted those resolutions enforced, and we enforced them.

So... As long as a country is on YOUR side, it's OK to defy the UN..

[Thaiquila]

Membrane~

Freaking unbelievable!

And another thing--Thaiquila and his kind claim to "abhor terrorism", etc., and yet they consistently focus their attention solely on "Bush", always complaining about "Bush", beating their drums against "Bush"... WHEN IN REALITY, IT'S THE TERRORISTS WHO ARE THE BAD GUYS! Why is it Thaiquila and his kind NEVER COMPLAIN ABOUT THE TERRORISTS or their tactics?? Really! It's always a one-sided complaint: "America is the bad guy" or "Bush is the bad guy"--when really, the U.S. is simply reacting to what the terrorists have already started!

Honestly, sometimes I halfway suspect this forum has been infiltrated by pro-Islamic terrorist supporters, whose job it is to raise doubt about the U.S.and it's intentions, generate fear, distrust and anger, propagate rumours and misinformation, etc. When you look at the posts of individuals like Thaiquila, Butterfly, and others, it starts to look like a planned, coordinated effort to do just that...

Nice try, I am Jewish, honey. Born in the USA. Have voted in every American election I have been eligible for thirty years.

I happen to have a major problem with George Bush. I think he has done more damage to the US than Islamic terrorists. I am pissed off that the world hates us now, and I want a president who can restore the respect America deserves.

Notice I did mention my abhorance to Islamic terrorists. Add to that terrorists of any religion. If Bush had rigorously pursued a policy of wiping out actual Islamic terrorists, he would most of the world behind him. He totally squandered the good will the US could have built up after 911 by invading Iraq.

Viva to the people of Spain for standing up for a change. Now it is the US turn to THROW THE BUMS OUT!

[adjan jb]

Viva to the people of Spain for standing up for a change.

I would also like to add my most sincere congratulations to the People of Spain.

[Ulysses G.]

however the reason that Bush wanted to attack Iraq had nothing to do with Daddy or even oil.

Saddam had defied many UN resolutions

If defying the UN resolutions was the reason to go to war, I guess your next target is Israel.

(As Bush has always thought that the UN is irrelevant, your comment doesn't make sense.)

Israel is on our side, and whether the UN is irrelevant, or not, we wanted those resolutions enforced, and we enforced them.

So... As long as a country is on YOUR side, it's OK to defy the UN..

After seeing the performance the French, Russia and Germany put on before Gulf War II, dam_ right. Would you trust any of these weasels?

To put it differently, do you think that France stayed out of the war to preserve peace, or for their own economic interests?

[the gentleman]

"After seeing the performance the French, Russia and Germany put on before Gulf War II, dam_ right. Would you trust any of these weasels?"

I suppose that would depend on which side of the "performance" you agree or disagree with - would you trust George Bush????

Georgie Porgy's other nick!

[Ulysses G.]

Now Bush should go to Spain and tell the Spaniards that 200 of them were killed because he is so successful in his war against terrorism. That's exactly what he said to justify the growing number of American casualties in Iraq, isn't it ?

Do you think that, if America had not struck back for 9/11, there would have been no further terrorist strikes? You have already admitted that you think 9/11 was a good idea. Wouldn't you folks have wanted to keep rubbing our noses in all of our "mistakes"?

In other words, there was terrorism before George Bush, so why do you presume that any terrorist acts now are his fault?

I would say that they are the faults of people that carry them out, or people that support them. People like you.

[taxexile]

the people who have hijacked islam and use the koran as an excuse for terrorism will bomb and maim whatever the west does. they are pathetic nihilists who love to kill and maim. they have no agenda,they make no demands,they only seek to destroy western style civilisation and democracy.

spain was chosen probably because (a) its involvment in iraq and ( because the advance of islam was halted in spain long ago. the muslim extremists have never forgotten this.

unless these terrorists are stopped they will succeed in their mission to destabilise western society and in its place over the next hundred years or so will come anarchy and eventual moslem domination with a return to the middle ages. these people are in no hurry.

they have caused a change of government in spain within three days.

bush and blair are absolutely correct to pursue these people by any means necessary, and more power to them. the stronger they become, the more people will join their cause and somewhere down the line there will be a war between the two cultures. they must be stopped.

anybody who values western democracy and the freedoms it gives to people should be very afraid of what these terrorists are capable of achieving by their actions.

the attack in spain, like the attack in new york and bali, were attacks on every person in the world who values freedom and democracy.

sit on the fence at your peril.

more power to bush and blair in their fight against these nihilists.

[adjan jb]

José Maria Aznar (another crusader, from the Opus Dei) involved his country in the Iraq war despite the opposition of 95 % of the Spaniards. (Last saturday, In a street of Madrid, a banner read "YOUR WAR, OUR CORPSES"). Had Bush, Blair and Aznar chosen to fight Al Qaeda itself (the ACTUAL terrorists) and not Iraq, It's possible that the attacks in Madrid would never have happened. Clearly the Iraq war hasn't made Spain safer. The millions of Spaniards who opposed that war were right.

Last but not least. The people of Spain just gave America two lessons:

- After the attack, they didn't sink into hysteria and line up behind a leader who has betrayed them in every possible way. They've just repudiated him and his dubious war.

- They pressured their goverment for the truth and they got it in only 2 days. Now how many days since 9-11 ?

[Jeepz]

Just a small point. Spain's terrorist bombing looks to have been Al Qaeda or an aligned group with ties to them. Spain supported the USA. Do you think if Spain had supported the USA in Afghanistan only, that AQ would not have been interested in punishing Spain? Why does Iraq become the only cause of terrorist activity?

It is the easiest cause to rally western critics around, I understand. But AQ was anti-US and anti-western culture before Iraq. AQ struck at the world trade center, and then it promised to hit other targets after that. But since the US has entered Iraq, it is like that has become the one and only reason that there is any residual terrorism. And that would be a very shakey assumption.

Jeepz

[mouse]

Israel is on our side, and whether the UN is irrelevant, or not, we wanted those resolutions enforced, and we enforced them.

I seem to recall a few UN resolutions against Israel that where never enforced and vetoed by the good old USA. I am an American and many time ashamed for the hypocrisy. I do not condone Terrorism however, I do not condone conduct by nations that cause Terrorism either. We should all take a good look at ourselves. When kids live in refugee camps for their entire lives then we are responsible for breeding terrorism.

[Thaiquila]

The point a lot of sensible people are making is that yes indeed Al Queda and its bedfellows in Islamic terrorism are very nasty and will not go away without a fight. So to fight this fight, there needs to be an international coalition (including the United Nations) that is FOCUSED and UNITED in defeating this scourge. Defeating this scourge also involves looking at some of the root causes of how this situation developed (not that there is any excuse), and to address these if possible. The Islamic world cannot be ignored. They are by no means all terrorists.

The fatal fault Bush has made (and the former leader of Spain), and the main reason he deserves to be thrown out, the sooner the better, is that he abused the political good will of the war against Islamic terrorism by invading a country that was not connected to Al Queda (and related groups).

It seems likely Bin Laden will be captured soon. There are thousands of potential Bin Ladens.

Knee jerk right wing critics should be clear there are lots of people all over the world who are BOTH passionately anti-Al Queda and anti-Bush, and that this position is quite logical.

[Ulysses G.]

Just a small point.  Spain's terrorist bombing looks to have been Al Qaeda or an aligned group with ties to them.  Spain supported the USA.  Do you think if Spain had supported the USA in Afghanistan only, that AQ would not have been interested in punishing Spain?  Why does Iraq become the only cause of terrorist activity?

It is the easiest cause to rally western critics around, I understand.  But AQ was anti-US and anti-western culture before Iraq.  AQ struck at the world trade center, and then it promised to hit other targets after that.  But since the US has entered Iraq, it is like that has become the one and only reason that there is any residual terrorism.  And that would be a very shakey assumption.

Jeepz

This is not a small point. I would like to see adjan jb respond to this post, and also my question before.

To put it differently, do you think that France stayed out of the war to preserve peace, or for their own economic interests?

[Boon Mee]

It's like about a week ago, Adjan jd posted a comment that stated he was personally happy that the World Trade Center went down.  I bit to that one but forgot the dude is from the one of those Axis of Weavel countries.

A weavel ? What is it ?

A typo - Adjan, meant to say Weasel