Boon Mee Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 First off, what Spanish should do is bring back a strong leader like Francisco Franco who don't mess around with terrorists. Let loose the old Guardia Civil and we'll see how long the Al Queda types hang around. .Still think Franco was a good thing Boon Mee? Suspect you need to study your history first. sbk~ My post was slight tongue-in-cheek apart from the lack of civil disobedence that did not occur when the Guardia was around. I worked in the shipyard in Ferrol, Spain for a period and learned quite a bit re. Sr. Franco. His ancestrial home is just north of the city. That area of Spain also produced the Castro family of Cuba fame. There's a great Maritime Museum there in La Coruna & Ferrol depicting all the events surrounding the Spanish Armada that sailed from that port. It was easy to see how that area of Spain produced "hard" men - it's a rough climate... Boon Mee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Sorry Boonmee, in light of the serious erosion of civil liberties in the US from the Patriot Act (designed to fight terrorists but used on normal Americans not involved in terrorism at all) most of which is now being struck down by courts across the US, I do not find anything tongue-in-cheek about the Franco comparison. In fact, I find it quite chillingly apt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Mee Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 sbk~ I wouldn't worry if I were you - living in Thailand. In terms of civil liberties, I've been more concerned about the "authorities" in LOS at times than any red-neck cop here in the states. Don't think we have to get as paranoid as folks did back in the 70's when, for example, the Crosby, Still, Nash & Young song re. "Step outta line and the Man will come and take you away" was popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 To put it differently, do you think that France stayed out of the war to preserve peace, or for their own economic interests? France stayed out of the war for many reasons. Let me give you some of them: - We had better intelligence than you and we knew from the beginning that there were no WMD. - France is a democracy and Chirac cannot go to war against the will of 95 % of the people. - Despite its obvious shortcomings, we do believe in the UN. - The Arab world (that we know very well) is a time-bomb and there are 6 million Muslims in France (10 % of the pop.). We also believe that the problem won't be solved as long as Israel is allowed to go on with its genocidal policy. Sionism is ALSO a pain in the a$$. - After two world wars that took place on our land (and two colonial wars we are not proud of), we are, at last, a people dedicated to peace. - As we are a secular country, we don't have any certainty about Good and Evil. - Saddam Hussein didn't attempt to kill our president's father. - The Bush administration smacks of fascism. But I'm not naive enough to believe that these reasons were the only ones. Obviously, France (alongside other countries) wanted to preserve some economic interests. In 1999, Iraq switched to the Euro and the European Union was quite happy with this decision. If other oil rich countries had followed the same path, it would have been the end of the dollar king. And that's probably THE reason why YOU went to war. It had nothing to do with democracy, regime change, the love of freedom and other "hollywoodian" bullsh1t. Admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 boonmee, you need to take a closer look at the patriot act, it has nothing to do with red neck cops and everything to do with security forces intercepting emails, searching homes, tapping phones, obtaining medical records, library records, in fact, any records at all, without probable cause or search warrants. Believe it or not, librarians (never mess with a librarian!) are some of the biggest opponents of the Patriot Act, since they feel the government is infringing on some basic constitutional rights by insisting libraries give over lists of all people who have checked out certain books, and that list can include ANY books they choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 adjan jb, thank you for giving me the reasons behind your beliefs. It is certainly interesting to read statements like this: - After two world wars that took place on our land (and two colonial wars we are not proud of), we are, at last, a people dedicated to peace.I wonder if most of your fellow citizens would agree? In 1999, Iraq switched to the Euro and the European Union was quite happy with this decision. If other oil rich countries had followed the same path, it would have been the end of the dollar king. And that's probably THE reason why YOU went to war. It had nothing to do with democracy, regime change, the love of freedom and other "hollywoodian" bullsh1t. Admit it. As to your "question" at the end of your post. Certainly not. I wouldn't be on here supporting our policies if I believed that our main goal in Iraq was oil. I do not claim to be a great brain, but I am far from stupid, and the Great Brains that I do know, who all hate Bush, and everything that he stands for, still admit that what he and Tony Blair is doing is necessary to solve the Middle East problem, and that they admire them for sticking with it - through gritted teeth mind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Just a small point. Spain's terrorist bombing looks to have been Al Qaeda or an aligned group with ties to them. Spain supported the USA. Do you think if Spain had supported the USA in Afghanistan only, that AQ would not have been interested in punishing Spain? Why does Iraq become the only cause of terrorist activity?It is the easiest cause to rally western critics around, I understand. But AQ was anti-US and anti-western culture before Iraq. AQ struck at the world trade center, and then it promised to hit other targets after that. But since the US has entered Iraq, it is like that has become the one and only reason that there is any residual terrorism. And that would be a very shakey assumption. Jeepz i've spent 2 hours answering your post and then when i tried to send my reply, i was told that i was not logged in. I WAS LOGGED IN. SH1T! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Just a small point. Spain's terrorist bombing looks to have been Al Qaeda or an aligned group with ties to them. Spain supported the USA. Do you think if Spain had supported the USA in Afghanistan only, that AQ would not have been interested in punishing Spain? Why does Iraq become the only cause of terrorist activity?It is the easiest cause to rally western critics around, I understand. But AQ was anti-US and anti-western culture before Iraq. AQ struck at the world trade center, and then it promised to hit other targets after that. But since the US has entered Iraq, it is like that has become the one and only reason that there is any residual terrorism. And that would be a very shakey assumption. Jeepz i've spent 2 hours answering your post and then when i tried to send my reply, i was told that i was not logged in. I WAS LOGGED IN. SH1T! Is there a way to retrieve what i have typed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Mee Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 i've spent 2 hours answering your post and then when i tried to send my reply, i was told that i was not logged in. I WAS LOGGED IN. SH1T! Is there a way to retrieve what i have typed ? Adjan jb~ It's called "KARMA" my friend! HA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Mee Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 boonmee, you need to take a closer look at the patriot act, it has nothing to do with red neck cops and everything to do with security forces intercepting emails, searching homes, tapping phones, obtaining medical records, library records, in fact, any records at all, without probable cause or search warrants. Believe it or not, librarians (never mess with a librarian!) are some of the biggest opponents of the Patriot Act, since they feel the government is infringing on some basic constitutional rights by insisting libraries give over lists of all people who have checked out certain books, and that list can include ANY books they choose. sbk~ In the wake of 9/11 there was sure to be closer scrutiny of e-mails, bank records etc. as the US was, & still is an "open" society. The framers of our Consitiution could not have anticipated such an event so that's why we have ammendments to it. I'm sure if the Democrats win in November there'll be some modifications made to the Patriot Act depending on the threat level. But, in the final analysis, if the individual is not performing what could be considered treasoneous or terrorist activities, they should have no worrys. (step outa line & the man will come and take you away)? We're not talking Eugine McCarthy here and his House Un-American Activities commission... Boon Mee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I'm sure if the Democrats win in November there'll be some modifications made to the Patriot Act depending on the threat level. But, in the final analysis, if the individual is not performing what could be considered treasoneous or terrorist activities, they should have no worrys. (step outa line & the man will come and take you away)?We're not talking Eugine McCarthy here and his House Un-American Activities commission... glad you are so sure, last I heard AG Ashcroft is attempting to acquire abortion records. What does this have to do with terrorism? Just a small point. Spain's terrorist bombing looks to have been Al Qaeda or an aligned group with ties to them. Spain supported the USA. Do you think if Spain had supported the USA in Afghanistan only, that AQ would not have been interested in punishing Spain? Why does Iraq become the only cause of terrorist activity?It is the easiest cause to rally western critics around, I understand. But AQ was anti-US and anti-western culture before Iraq. AQ struck at the world trade center, and then it promised to hit other targets after that. But since the US has entered Iraq, it is like that has become the one and only reason that there is any residual terrorism. And that would be a very shakey assumption. Jeepz Of course it hasn't become the only reason for terrorism, just another one to add to the list. These people are looking for excuses to sway moderate muslims their way, and lets face it, Iraq has not helped convince moderate people that the US is out to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeepz Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 sbk~ While I am not as "anti-Bush" as you by any means, there are things that his administration gets up to that does just raise my hackles. The scan of medical records along with their view that patients don't have any right to expect privacy was one. In my current state of residence we passed a "death with diginity" law allowing someone that is terminal (within 6 months of dying) and rational to request medication that would allow them to die peacefully and quickly. Only they can do it and it has to be confirmed by two doctors basically. We passed it once, major political broohahah erupted (as was expected) so it was voted on again (by the people, not the politicians) and passed a second time. Bush's administration was in trying to threaten doctors with federal prosecution if they obeyed the state law. Which I found unconscienable. States rights unless they don't happen to like those rights. Now I realize that it is a touchy subject, but having watched people die slow and die quickly, I know what my preference is, and it is quite strong. I also believe that when the people pass a law twice, they are pretty serious about it. I think that Bush was correct in the post 9/11 situation to go after Afghanistan. I'm more leery of his record in Iraq, but I do not assign it to some preplanned agenda. I assign it to bad intel along with Saddam's unwillingness to actually show they had gotten rid of *everything*. So Bush, in no mood to tolerate disingenuous dictators, cleared Saddam off the board. That his intel was bad, that there were no discernable links to AQ afterwards is a giant political cowpie for him. But by themselves, they don't make him or his actions despicable. They may cost him an election. Al Qaeda will be attempting to terrorize the US regardless of what we do in Iraq. They will attack western countries regardless of what those countries do in terms of supporting or opposing the US. There is no free and clear way to extricate the US or Europe from the terrorist's sights. So, if you can't make peace with them, there is only one thing left to do. Find them and kill them. Not a pretty picture and not the solution that "diversity" and "multicultural" segments of society like, but that is the way of it. If I appreciate nothing else, Bush is at least doing that. Jeepz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asinah Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 middle east have mentioned they feel that southern Spain is really theirs and should be reconquered. Middle East has nothing with North Africa or Southern Spain to do. Could you point me to a website where those statements were posted? I don't support Iraq and I think it is good that Saddam is gone but at what price? But how Bush could make a deal with Libya? Find them and kill them. Not a pretty picture and not the solution that "diversity" and "multicultural" segments of society like, but that is the way of it. If I appreciate nothing else, Bush is at least doing that. Yes, but it too can backfire because it is a hit for a run and will never end. That Saddam is gone is great and now it is time for Bush to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Mee Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ,,glad you are so sure, last I heard AG Ashcroft is attempting to acquire abortion records. What does this have to do with terrorism? .. sbk~ That one is news to me - probably manufactured disinformation out of Bzerkeley, Calif. There are no lengths the Left-Lunatic-Fringe won't go to discredit anyone in present administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaiquila Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 ,,glad you are so sure, last I heard AG Ashcroft is attempting to acquire abortion records. What does this have to do with terrorism? ..sbk~ That one is news to me - probably manufactured disinformation out of Bzerkeley, Calif. There are no lengths the Left-Lunatic-Fringe won't go to discredit anyone in present administration. How about from the Chicago Sun Times: February 13, 2004 Ashcroft Hunting for Private Abortion Records Ashcroft is searching for private abortion records to determing if partial-birth abortions (D&X procedures) are indeed being used for medically necessary reasons. The hospitals that are being targeted say that the records are an intrusion into medical confidentiality... Those wackos in Chicago. It is very weird how so called right wing "freedom loving" Americans are falling all over themselves to surrender all of their civil rights to the fascist Bush regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgie-Porgie Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 It is very weird how so called right wing "freedom loving" Americans are falling all over themselves to surrender all of their civil rights to the fascist Bush regime. Don't you get it? We don't want anyone to control us. Unfortunately, Bush is totally justified in asking us to surrender these rights. How else can our Government deal with these bizarre tactics? It happens in war all of the time, and this is war! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 .Unfortunately, Bush is totally justified in asking us to surrender these rights. Surrender monkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Boonmee, sticking your head in the sand and refusing to search for the truth is the first step towards the complete abdication of your civil rights. If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State. Joseph Goebbels. Restrictions of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us. William O. Douglas Those who suppress freedom always do so in the name of law and order. John V. Lindsay And finally: A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves. Bertrand de Jouvenel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
et33.com Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 hey man !!! what's the point of all this talk... fact--- USA IS now number one in military so !!! so some sincere move by throwing out all it's chemical / biological and nuclear what mass destruction weapons... open the country to IDEA inspectors to quantify it's mass destruction research program and store of senseless killing machines... than talk about dis-arming others... does U.S.A. need to keep enough stocks to kill the whole earth a hundred times over ?? reduce it to two times is more than enough.... and to me expansionist gov and terrorist are the same... both kill terrorist kills a couple of hundred now and than gov's like USA kill by the millions when whole countries are screwed up by them... USA caused the most death and bloodshed the last 100 years to civilians by their open and covert operations... anyone who seek to deny that is either blind / stupid or ignorant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgie-Porgie Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 .Unfortunately, Bush is totally justified in asking us to surrender these rights. Surrender monkey. Mr. Hit and Run Poster Do you have Outlook Express on your computer? When you have typed a good number of words, click on all the words in your post, copy it to outlook express (new mail), and periodically check your spelling and don't erase the mail. In that way, you won't keep losing your posts, and you won't look as stupid as your buddies who can't figure out how to use spell-check. The Commie Party might be so impressed that they fire the gentleman and make you the new leader! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Unfortunately, Bush is totally justified in asking us to surrender these rights. If you believe so, then you should change your signature. You are a number, not a man. The guerrilla poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaiquila Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 Another incredible paradox. The right wingers claim we are in Iraq to force democracy and freedom on Iraqis, yet at home, they support giving up their own freedoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britmaveric Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Have to love all the excuses here - look Iraq had to be taken care of sooner or later. I for one think it should have happened back in 91. Appeasement isn't a very good policy, just ask Europe in the 30s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgie-Porgie Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Unfortunately, Bush is totally justified in asking us to surrender these rights. If you believe so, then you should change your signature. You are a number, not a man. The guerrilla poster. Thaiquila Posted on Wed 2004-03-17, 09:47:53 Another incredible paradox. The right wingers claim we are in Iraq to force democracy and freedom on Iraqis, yet at home, they support giving up their own freedoms My favorite President, John F. Kennedy, said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". What is wrong with you spoiled, politically correct children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I agree, Bush SR made a joke out of the whole thing the first time around but that doesn't mean making excuses to justify the second time around nor does it justify giving up all of the things that make America a free country, like our Constitutional Rights. Anyone who feels that this 'war on terror' is a valid reason to suspend the Constitution needs to study their government in the first place. Our Constitution enshrining our civil liberties is what set us apart from Europe when we started and is what makes the US still a good place to live. If you studied history you would learn Hitler suspended Germany's Constitution in order to fight 'outside forces'. Unfortunately, Bush is totally justified in asking us to surrender these rights. How else can our Government deal with these bizarre tactics? It happens in war all of the time, and this is war! Shame on you. That is the most amazing piece of sophistry I have ever heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britmaveric Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Hmmm well I hate to inform you, but last Great War FDR/Churchill suspended many a right to the citizen. You give up rights in the short term, in order to wage a successful war. The difference is most people today do not know what sacrifice is. Talk with WWII Generation and they will share with you on how things were then, and how everyone sacrificed their lives to contribute to the war effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Sorry but you cannot compare the level of personal intrusion available to the FBI today with the loss of some civil rights in WWII. And, I suppose the Japanese-American interned in camps during the war might have something to argue with you about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgie-Porgie Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Sorry but you cannot compare the level of personal intrusion available to the FBI today with the loss of some civil rights in WWII. And, I suppose the Japanese-American interned in camps during the war might have something to argue with you about that. sbk, you are not the sort of person who deserves for me to jump all over you in my normal manner, but you are sort of asking for it with these particular posts. During World War II, quite a few civil liberties were taken away from the populace. There was rationing of food and gasoline, the obligatory draft, and much more. If the FBI, or the CIA, or any other Government organization, suspected someone of spying or helping the enemy , the intrusions into their personal life, and the harassment, probably would be much worse than today - without any real evidence that is. In one way, you have already proved my point. How many Arab-American citizens are in Internment camps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Mee Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 ,,glad you are so sure, last I heard AG Ashcroft is attempting to acquire abortion records. What does this have to do with terrorism? ..sbk~ That one is news to me - probably manufactured disinformation out of Bzerkeley, Calif. There are no lengths the Left-Lunatic-Fringe won't go to discredit anyone in present administration. How about from the Chicago Sun Times: February 13, 2004 Ashcroft Hunting for Private Abortion Records Ashcroft is searching for private abortion records to determing if partial-birth abortions (D&X procedures) are indeed being used for medically necessary reasons. The hospitals that are being targeted say that the records are an intrusion into medical confidentiality... Those wackos in Chicago. It is very weird how so called right wing "freedom loving" Americans are falling all over themselves to surrender all of their civil rights to the fascist Bush regime. If I remember correctly, there was a law passed some time ago that restricts partial-birth abortions? So, AG Ashcroft and his merry men are just enforcing a law that the majority of Congress passed from the will of the majority of the American people. Makes sense to me. Partial-birth abortion don't, unless the mother is in medical danger. The Looney-Left grasping at straws again... Boon Mee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Mee Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Unfortunately, Bush is totally justified in asking us to surrender these rights. If you believe so, then you should change your signature. You are a number, not a man. The guerrilla poster. Thaiquila Posted on Wed 2004-03-17, 09:47:53 Another incredible paradox. The right wingers claim we are in Iraq to force democracy and freedom on Iraqis, yet at home, they support giving up their own freedoms My favorite President, John F. Kennedy, said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". What is wrong with you spoiled, politically correct children? Georgie, Being a man of stout mind I'm appalled to see your favorite President was JFK??? Think back on the Bay of Pigs Debacle? How Wonder-boy JFK let down the Cuban Freedom Fighters. Think back on Vietnam? He was the Man who got us into all that mess. My favorite recent President and yours too if you think about it is Ronald Reagan. Won the Cold War, brought down the Berlin Wall, reduced double-digit inflation - the list goes on... Boon Mee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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