Koh Tao - DNA tests do not match with those of suspects in British tourists' murder

[teatree]

Maybe they would have more luck in finding the killer(s) if they extended their search to include Thai people.

[MJP]

"...Charles, a 27-year-old who runs his own events company in London, recalls the sun rising on one such party in Koh Phangan. "There was this English couple who were having sex in the water, which was obviously incredibly disrespectful to the locals, but everybody went nuts. One Thai guy ran in there and just started attacking the man, then about 20 others followed and beat the absolute hell out of him, to the point where he was lifeless and face-down in the water. These Thai people came and drove a pick-up truck on to the beach, and then they just threw him into the back of it and drove off...."

When a person travels to a different country with a different culture then they should respect the ways of that culture or be prepared to face the punishment that culture has every right to exact.

If a foreign tourist couple starting "getting it on" right in front of my children in front of my house you can bet I would deal with it accordingly.

TIT, ihow they choose to run their country and express their culture is 100% their right.

By putting a hoe through a girls face?

It's not proven what the poor victims were doing. It's just assumed.

[Kru Baa]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It would be nice to know if the DNA found in the semen was connected to the shared cigarette or the unshared one (or the lipstick one, but they didn't say they found DNA on that one). And what was the sex of the DNA found. If the shared one, then you have a strong suggestion of at least two attackers.

A hoe as a murder weapon seems to imply local people because tourists don't usually have access to hoes at night on the beach. Nor would they be likely to use one as a weapon, being unfamiliar with it.

And does the DNA cigarette with the lipstick math the DNA in the semen. That could narrow it down a lot, if you now what I mean.

[kkup]

The Thai police are under the spotlight and the true incompetence is starting to shine through. I really feel for the families.

[kannot]

"...Charles, a 27-year-old who runs his own events company in London, recalls the sun rising on one such party in Koh Phangan. "There was this English couple who were having sex in the water, which was obviously incredibly disrespectful to the locals, but everybody went nuts. One Thai guy ran in there and just started attacking the man, then about 20 others followed and beat the absolute hell out of him, to the point where he was lifeless and face-down in the water. These Thai people came and drove a pick-up truck on to the beach, and then they just threw him into the back of it and drove off...."

When a person travels to a different country with a different culture then they should respect the ways of that culture or be prepared to face the punishment that culture has every right to exact.

If a foreign tourist couple starting "getting it on" right in front of my children in front of my house you can bet I would deal with it accordingly.

TIT, ihow they choose to run their country and express their culture is 100% their right.

words fail me!!!!!!!!!

[ClutchClark]

"...Charles, a 27-year-old who runs his own events company in London, recalls the sun rising on one such party in Koh Phangan. "There was this English couple who were having sex in the water, which was obviously incredibly disrespectful to the locals, but everybody went nuts. One Thai guy ran in there and just started attacking the man, then about 20 others followed and beat the absolute hell out of him, to the point where he was lifeless and face-down in the water. These Thai people came and drove a pick-up truck on to the beach, and then they just threw him into the back of it and drove off...."

When a person travels to a different country with a different culture then they should respect the ways of that culture or be prepared to face the punishment that culture has every right to exact.

If a foreign tourist couple starting "getting it on" right in front of my children in front of my house you can bet I would deal with it accordingly.

TIT, ihow they choose to run their country and express their culture is 100% their right.

By putting a hoe through a girls face?

It's not proven what the poor victims were doing. It's just assumed.

This violent incident is in no way reflective of the Thai community or culture and you should be ashamed to suggest as much.

This violent crime was the act of a violent individual and Thai society is abhorred by this type of violence as any other society. Just look back to the violence against the young girl brutally murdered on the train a few months ago to see how Thai society reacts to violent offenders and also how quickly Thai law enforcement acts to remove those offenders from society.

[MJP]

"...Charles, a 27-year-old who runs his own events company in London, recalls the sun rising on one such party in Koh Phangan. "There was this English couple who were having sex in the water, which was obviously incredibly disrespectful to the locals, but everybody went nuts. One Thai guy ran in there and just started attacking the man, then about 20 others followed and beat the absolute hell out of him, to the point where he was lifeless and face-down in the water. These Thai people came and drove a pick-up truck on to the beach, and then they just threw him into the back of it and drove off...."

When a person travels to a different country with a different culture then they should respect the ways of that culture or be prepared to face the punishment that culture has every right to exact.

If a foreign tourist couple starting "getting it on" right in front of my children in front of my house you can bet I would deal with it accordingly.

TIT, ihow they choose to run their country and express their culture is 100% their right.

By putting a hoe through a girls face?

It's not proven what the poor victims were doing. It's just assumed.

This violent incident is in no way reflective of the Thai community or culture and you should be ashamed to suggest as much.

This violent crime was the act of a violent individual and Thai society is abhorred by this type of violence as any other society. Just look back to the violence against the young girl brutally murdered on the train a few months ago to see how Thai society reacts to violent offenders and also how quickly Thai law enforcement acts to remove those offenders from society.

Words fail me too.

[ClutchClark]

"...Charles, a 27-year-old who runs his own events company in London, recalls the sun rising on one such party in Koh Phangan. "There was this English couple who were having sex in the water, which was obviously incredibly disrespectful to the locals, but everybody went nuts. One Thai guy ran in there and just started attacking the man, then about 20 others followed and beat the absolute hell out of him, to the point where he was lifeless and face-down in the water. These Thai people came and drove a pick-up truck on to the beach, and then they just threw him into the back of it and drove off...."

When a person travels to a different country with a different culture then they should respect the ways of that culture or be prepared to face the punishment that culture has every right to exact.

If a foreign tourist couple starting "getting it on" right in front of my children in front of my house you can bet I would deal with it accordingly.

TIT, ihow they choose to run their country and express their culture is 100% their right.

words fail me!!!!!!!!!

How refreshing.

[Tywais]

This rape was one of the first lot of cases where DNA samples were taken and the tests said that the rapist was an African American man. Later an African American suspect was caught and the DNA samples taken from the victim and the suspect matched and the man was found guilty on DNA evidence.

To be honest I really am not sure, so are there any DNA experts in the house? As I would be very interested to know myself.

Genetic Ancestral Testing Cannot Deliver On Its Promise, Study Warns

Date: October 20, 2007

Source: University of California - Berkeley

Summary: For amateur genealogists and Americans searching for their roots, the prospect of tracking one's DNA to a specific country, region or tribe with a take-home kit is highly alluring. But while the popularity of genetic ancestral testing is rising -- particularly among African-Americans -- the technology is flawed and could spawn unwelcome societal consequences, according to researchers.

<snipped>

Some of the tests' limitations identified by Bolnick and her co-authors include:

• Most tests trace only a few of your ancestors and a small portion of your DNA,
• Tests are unlikely to identify all of the groups or locations around the world where a test-taker's relatives are found,
• Tests may report false negatives or false positives,
• Limited sample databases mean test results are subject to misinterpretation,
• There is no clear connection between DNA and racial/ethnic identity,
• Tests cannot determine exactly where ancestors lived or what ethnic identity they held.

<snipped>

Full article here - ScienceDaily

[MJP]

When a person travels to a different country with a different culture then they should respect the ways of that culture or be prepared to face the punishment that culture has every right to exact.

If a foreign tourist couple starting "getting it on" right in front of my children in front of my house you can bet I would deal with it accordingly.

TIT, ihow they choose to run their country and express their culture is 100% their right.

By putting a hoe through a girls face?

It's not proven what the poor victims were doing. It's just assumed.

This violent incident is in no way reflective of the Thai community or culture and you should be ashamed to suggest as much.

This violent crime was the act of a violent individual and Thai society is abhorred by this type of violence as any other society. Just look back to the violence against the young girl brutally murdered on the train a few months ago to see how Thai society reacts to violent offenders and also how quickly Thai law enforcement acts to remove those offenders from society.

Words fail me too.

Thats typical when you have no argument.

Or were you suggesting that the violence against the young couple is reflective of Thai culture?

The point is, were you?

When a person travels to a different country with a different culture then they should respect the ways of that culture or be prepared to face the punishment that culture has every right to exact.

If a foreign tourist couple starting "getting it on" right in front of my children in front of my house you can bet I would deal with it accordingly.

TIT, ihow they choose to run their country and express their culture is 100% their right.

Again I ask you, is murder your chosen punishment?

[ClutchClark]

This violent incident is in no way reflective of the Thai community or culture and you should be ashamed to suggest as much.

This violent crime was the act of a violent individual and Thai society is abhorred by this type of violence as any other society. Just look back to the violence against the young girl brutally murdered on the train a few months ago to see how Thai society reacts to violent offenders and also how quickly Thai law enforcement acts to remove those offenders from society.

Words fail me too.

No worries, thats common when you have no argument, or were you actually suggesting this violent crime is typical of Thai culture?

[MJP]

This violent incident is in no way reflective of the Thai community or culture and you should be ashamed to suggest as much.

This violent crime was the act of a violent individual and Thai society is abhorred by this type of violence as any other society. Just look back to the violence against the young girl brutally murdered on the train a few months ago to see how Thai society reacts to violent offenders and also how quickly Thai law enforcement acts to remove those offenders from society.

Words fail me too.

No worries, thats common when you have no argument, or were you actually suggesting this violent crime is typical of Thai culture?

Answer my question above.

[jspill]

When a person travels to a different country with a different culture then they should respect the ways of that culture or be prepared to face the punishment that culture has every right to exact.

If a foreign tourist couple starting "getting it on" right in front of my children in front of my house you can bet I would deal with it accordingly.

TIT, ihow they choose to run their country and express their culture is 100% their right.

No culture / country has the right to physically assault beachgoers and load them into the back of a van lifeless.

That's taking Thai apologism a bit too far. You know you can get treatment for Stockholm Syndrome right?

[ClutchClark]

When a person travels to a different country with a different culture then they should respect the ways of that culture or be prepared to face the punishment that culture has every right to exact.

If a foreign tourist couple starting "getting it on" right in front of my children in front of my house you can bet I would deal with it accordingly.

TIT, ihow they choose to run their country and express their culture is 100% their right.

No culture / country has the right to physically assault beachgoers and load them into the back of a van lifeless.

That's taking Thai apologism a bit too far. You know you can get treatment for Stockholm Syndrome right?

You must be from a country where you can call the police when there is a problem and have an expectation the police will resolve your problem forthwith.

When you live in a country without prompt police action then you grow accustomed to resolving issues yourself. It has nothing specific to do with Thailand. It could take place in rural America.

In the description of the incident about the two farang having sex in the water, it was stated that many Thai participated in the beating of the man who disrespected their Culture. It certainly is not my business to tell the Thai people how they should act.

Especially when the couple were copulating on a public beach in daylight--an act that most societies would frown upon.

You seem to be a very emotional sort and I prefer logical discussions so the last word is yours.

[NCFC]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

If you had bothered to read your own link you would find (in red) DNA CANNOT: Determine the age or race of the donor

With respect, BullShit.

"A branch of Frudakis' company called AncestryByDNA aims to help genealogists explore the racial mix of their family trees with a simple DNA test. Unlike other DNA-testing kits, AncestryByDNA does not rely on Y-chromosome tests (which only males can use) or mitochondrial DNA. Instead, it looks at a person's Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs, or "snips" for short)—think of them as collections of letters among the long sentences of the human genome. Then, AncestryByDNA compares your SNPs to a database of results representing four main human racial groups, based on continent of origin: sub-Saharan African, Indo-European (Europeans, Middle Easterners and South Asians, such as Indians), East Asian (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Pacific Islanders) and Native American (ancient migrants to both North and South America). Originally, the test used six groups, distinguishing South Asian from European and Pacific Islander from East Asian, but the current version retreats from that until further refinement in an upcoming version 3.0."

familytreemagazine.

With equal respect, you have quoted a sales pitch from a company quite willing to blow smoke up your bum in exchange fro real money. Has any reputable police force EVER cited a person's race from DNA evidence alone?

In the book "history of DNA" by James Watson, who along with Francis Crick was the discoverer of the DNA's purpose, there is a chapter on this very subject of tracing races through DNA

[Thai at Heart]

How can we trust DNA tests being performed in Thailand ? When you know how the police works here , I do not trust this test , The murders will never be solved unless someone comes forward.

You can trust DNA test done in Thailand.

The head of Thai forensic is a KhunYing (equivalent to Your Lady in UK), and with the aid of best the British Scientific equipment GT200.

A very nasty trollish comment.

The GT200 is of course the fraudulent bomb detector, and the KhunYing reference can only be to the noted Thai forensic pathologist Khunying Pornthip Rojanasunand, who is controversial in Thailand because she doesn't toe the official line and is in many ways an iconoclast.

A poster with serious issues. DFTT.

For a fee and an exclusive documentary on the BBC she will provide any result u like.

[Thai at Heart]

"...Charles, a 27-year-old who runs his own events company in London, recalls the sun rising on one such party in Koh Phangan. "There was this English couple who were having sex in the water, which was obviously incredibly disrespectful to the locals, but everybody went nuts. One Thai guy ran in there and just started attacking the man, then about 20 others followed and beat the absolute hell out of him, to the point where he was lifeless and face-down in the water. These Thai people came and drove a pick-up truck on to the beach, and then they just threw him into the back of it and drove off...."

When a person travels to a different country with a different culture then they should respect the ways of that culture or be prepared to face the punishment that culture has every right to exact.

If a foreign tourist couple starting "getting it on" right in front of my children in front of my house you can bet I would deal with it accordingly.

TIT, ihow they choose to run their country and express their culture is 100% their right.

By putting a hoe through a girls face?

It's not proven what the poor victims were doing. It's just assumed.

This violent incident is in no way reflective of the Thai community or culture and you should be ashamed to suggest as much.

This violent crime was the act of a violent individual and Thai society is abhorred by this type of violence as any other society. Just look back to the violence against the young girl brutally murdered on the train a few months ago to see how Thai society reacts to violent offenders and also how quickly Thai law enforcement acts to remove those offenders from society.

Young Thai men are not to be trifled with when it comes to put them in their place. They settle arguements with extreme retribution .

This may not be unique to Thailand but I would suggest that the level of violence is often way beyond the level of offence caused.

Just look at these idiot youths shooting each other in bangkok to protect their college. This level of violence is relatively rare in many part of the developed world, and certainly not that common in areas on the developed world where tourists are present.

So, I suggest you are full of s*t that this doesn't reflect Thai society. It reflects a very violent part of Thai society and this problem is actually only getting worse.

Extreme retribution because of a perceived loss of face. Not to be trifled with in Thailand ever. Any news on the red bull kid. Yeah they removed him all the way to Singapore.

This crime will I suspect have been carried out by the progeny of some pooyai family down there and they will scramble desperately to hide it.

[NCFC]

Looking at CCTV footage of the Asian guy who is now a suspect. He has scruffy shorts, no shirt and nothing on his feet. I would guess this is a migrant worker who has seen something trying to get as far away as possible.

Locals chasing western girls around the bars would not be dressed like this.

I am sure this guy knows something but doesn't want to be next in line.

This is absolutely sickening, I am sure many know who the culprits are, but too scared to come forward. This country gets worse, and the example being set from the top will only make it even worse.

There were two people in the CCTV footage. The first ran by the camera, the second walked at a fairly fast clip. Thirty years of Thailand experience teaches me how much Thais dislike walking let alone running. Their walking style is usually a saunter so two young men in a hurry at 4am is suspicious in my opinion. I'm sure they are involved, perhaps only witnesses but they know something. And I'm pretty sure in a closed community such as Koh Tao there are locals who know more than they are admitting.

[ClutchClark]

By putting a hoe through a girls face?

It's not proven what the poor victims were doing. It's just assumed.

This violent incident is in no way reflective of the Thai community or culture and you should be ashamed to suggest as much.

This violent crime was the act of a violent individual and Thai society is abhorred by this type of violence as any other society. Just look back to the violence against the young girl brutally murdered on the train a few months ago to see how Thai society reacts to violent offenders and also how quickly Thai law enforcement acts to remove those offenders from society.

Young Thai men are not to be trifled with when it comes to put them in their place. They settle arguements with extreme retribution .

This may not be unique to Thailand but I would suggest that the level of violence is often way beyond the level of offence caused.

Just look at these idiot youths shooting each other in bangkok to protect their college. This level of violence is relatively rare in many part of the developed world, and certainly not that common in areas on the developed world where tourists are present.

So, I suggest you are full of s*t that this doesn't reflect Thai society. It reflects a very violent part of Thai society and this problem is actually only getting worse.

Extreme retribution because of a perceived loss of face. Not to be trifled with in Thailand ever. Any news on the red bull kid. Yeah they removed him all the way to Singapore.

This crime will I suspect have been carried out by the progeny of some pooyai family down there and they will scramble desperately to hide it.

So you have determined that the attacker was a Thai who had lost face?

I hadn't read that police report yet. Please do provide a link.

And it was my understanding that murder and sexual assault against farang was not at all common in Thailand, ergo, it is not a cultural norm. Thank you for correcting me. Can you provide some links to other such violent crimes against farangs on the islands?

Appreciate it.

[Beetlejuice]

This rape was one of the first lot of cases where DNA samples were taken and the tests said that the rapist was an African American man. Later an African American suspect was caught and the DNA samples taken from the victim and the suspect matched and the man was found guilty on DNA evidence.

To be honest I really am not sure, so are there any DNA experts in the house? As I would be very interested to know myself.

Genetic Ancestral Testing Cannot Deliver On Its Promise, Study Warns

Date: October 20, 2007

Source: University of California - Berkeley

Summary: For amateur genealogists and Americans searching for their roots, the prospect of tracking one's DNA to a specific country, region or tribe with a take-home kit is highly alluring. But while the popularity of genetic ancestral testing is rising -- particularly among African-Americans -- the technology is flawed and could spawn unwelcome societal consequences, according to researchers.

<snipped>

Some of the tests' limitations identified by Bolnick and her co-authors include:

• Most tests trace only a few of your ancestors and a small portion of your DNA,
• Tests are unlikely to identify all of the groups or locations around the world where a test-taker's relatives are found,
• Tests may report false negatives or false positives,
• Limited sample databases mean test results are subject to misinterpretation,
• There is no clear connection between DNA and racial/ethnic identity,
• Tests cannot determine exactly where ancestors lived or what ethnic identity they held.

<snipped>

Full article here - ScienceDaily

Thank you for this data, most interesting.

So please let me try and place all of this in perspective: DNA testing cannot accurately establish where an individuals distant ancestors originated, or a persons exact racial group.

The tests can confirm that an individual is related to close living relatives and collateral living relatives to a point and perhaps the origins of ancestors dating back to maybe great great grandparents and collateral ancestors of the same generations (probably still very hit and miss) but no further with any credibility. If for example regarding a case of rape, if DNA samples is taken from a victim and matches that of a suspect then under the law that is considered as solid evidence because the odds against the DNA results being incorrect or just a coincidence is something like millions to one.

Got it.

[jaywalker]

To my fellow posters, I have to give you credit for your imiganative skills!!

Have anyone even considered the possibility of a fishingcrew ashore for a good time??

Swim in, swim out!!

Yeah I was once on Ko Phang An & took one of those HORRIBLE long tail boat rides around the vicinity. Never Again! A slave galley would have probably made for a nicer ride!

Anyhow, we saw some REALLY Spooky looking cave-dwellers living in the nearby limestone cliffs. I say spooky, as they were basically cavemen.

Lot's of speculation on my part, but really, the swim in, swim out theory doesn't seem to have crossed authorities' minds.

[jaywalker]

Thai workers don't generally leave hoes laying about. At the end of the work day the hoe goes home with the worker. I am guessing the hoe was bought to the beach with intent to do harm.

Agree, workers are particularly careful with keeping all their work tools safe, it can mean the difference between working and not.

I've worked with Thai's in BKK on projects for the Army & Air Force, which involved a plethora of tools used to work on wheeled vehicles.

The ones I worked with were HORRIBLE about taking care of their tools. They would lose tools every single day!

[stoltmamma]

The telegraph uk reports now that she has not been rape.

[Thai at Heart]

By putting a hoe through a girls face?

It's not proven what the poor victims were doing. It's just assumed.

This violent incident is in no way reflective of the Thai community or culture and you should be ashamed to suggest as much.

This violent crime was the act of a violent individual and Thai society is abhorred by this type of violence as any other society. Just look back to the violence against the young girl brutally murdered on the train a few months ago to see how Thai society reacts to violent offenders and also how quickly Thai law enforcement acts to remove those offenders from society.

Young Thai men are not to be trifled with when it comes to put them in their place. They settle arguements with extreme retribution .

This may not be unique to Thailand but I would suggest that the level of violence is often way beyond the level of offence caused.

Just look at these idiot youths shooting each other in bangkok to protect their college. This level of violence is relatively rare in many part of the developed world, and certainly not that common in areas on the developed world where tourists are present.

So, I suggest you are full of s*t that this doesn't reflect Thai society. It reflects a very violent part of Thai society and this problem is actually only getting worse.

Extreme retribution because of a perceived loss of face. Not to be trifled with in Thailand ever. Any news on the red bull kid. Yeah they removed him all the way to Singapore.

This crime will I suspect have been carried out by the progeny of some pooyai family down there and they will scramble desperately to hide it.

So you have determined that the attacker was a Thai who had lost face?

I hadn't read that police report yet. Please do provide a link.

And it was my understanding that murder and sexual assault against farang was not at all common in Thailand, ergo, it is not a cultural norm. Thank you for correcting me. Can you provide some links to other such violent crimes against farangs on the islands?

Appreciate it.

I said I suspect. Um.

The bloke who just got a shoeing in pattaya only a day or two ago at the request of his girlfriend. How is that poor gentlemen in chiangmai who was shot accidentally last year.

Thai culture stands alone and proud on many issues, but now you choose to downplay aspects of it that may well have contributed to this tragedy.

Sexual assault is common in Thailand. Much more so than other more developed part of the world. Murder is also far more common in Thailand as in other more developed part of the world

The issue is not about Farang women, it is about women.

[stoltmamma]

What is farang ?

[Pattaya Lous]

Pirate prime suspect as it's small island and almost resident don't dare to do something like that, it's from nearby village as killer may be more then 1 person.

sorry you don't know what you are talking about.

Pirates around Thailand tourist resorts .

Look more local.

[Strangebrew]

To who ever did This you won't get away scot free there are other ways of finding out who you are and being Thai won't protect you even the police can't protect you from justice. There are other ways to render justice and you can bet there not pleasant.

[longstebe]

What's the latest news?

[canuckamuck]

Farang is a Thai word which means a white person or person of European descent. Some people find it offensive, but it is used everywhere in Thailand

Now that the cat is out of the back be prepared for much off-topic squabbling over the term.

[xray]

The telegraph uk reports now that she has not been rape.

This, when combined with the info in post #179 of this thread:

"2 samples of DNA were taken from Hannah's body. No matches with anyone else they have questioned/sampled and not even a match with murdered guy.

Theory that the two Bits were having sex not yet supported!"

calls into question whether or not the authorities now have the DNA profile of the suspected killer. If at least one of the DNA samples from the female victim are from a blood source (or non-semen source), then that could be of the killer (leaving their own blood on the victim during the attack). If both DNA samples taken from the victim are of a semen source, and she has in fact not been raped, then the authorities may not yet have the DNA profile of a suspect.

This, assuming one or both of the reports quoted above don't turn out to be bogus (as has been happening elsewhere in the reporting of this crime).

Have the authorities stated they have found a DNA profile for a suspect? If yes, please link to (or cite) the report.