Koh Tao - DNA tests do not match with those of suspects in British tourists' murder

[andyIslandMan]

There's a good quote on this BBC article too: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29249129

British freelance journalist Andrew Drummond, who lives in Bangkok, said the investigation seemed to have followed the "same pattern" as those into previous killings of Britons in Thailand, such as the unsolved murder of Kirsty Jones in 2000.

"Police initially seem to always seek the foreigners or the immigrants as the main suspects and that certainly happened in this case," he said.

"We've had a week of toing and froing between British suspects and Burmese immigrant suspects and now we find out that... the DNA doesn't match anybody."

However this other quote in the same article regarding the victims families will probably be the start of a very long and frustrating process for them :-( #RIP

British consul Michael Hancock said they were "deeply distressed" and it was "very important for the family" to speak directly to a senior police officer.

[Fat Haggis]

Has it been established that Dave and Hannah were even together or romantically linked prior to the night they were murdered? David had a girlfriend back in the UK according to some news articles, who said he was the love of her life, that struck me as a bit odd, as the feeling wasn't reciprocated if there was indeed a romantic connection between the deceased, and it must be quite distressing for the lass left at home wondering why?

For all intensive purposes, he could very easily have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, and was simply being a good samaritan and making sure Hannah got back to her hotel that night, IF there's any merit and truth about the unwanted attentions of a local Thai.

I'm sure that his travelling companions would have been able to shed light on the matter more.

The comments that came from the Chief of Police that his friend who was assisiting in the inquiries, that Chris was a homosexual and more or less implied he killed his life long friend needs to be looked at more closely, it was almost as if the Chief wasn't willing to see past the tree's and this would have been a simple case closed, fortunately for Chris the DNA didn't match, and the "blood" traces on his clothing was ruled out as a chemical and not blood at all (according to some other articles I've read).

Someone, or some persons murdered that couple, and everyone needs to put their prejudices aside, and sit back and let the investigation continue, the Police have been sadly lacking in my opinion, and have been the cause of so much misinformation, everyone on that Island is a suspect, Tourists, workers and locals alike, even the local coppers should be suspects..

[Local Drunk]

Jonathan Head on the BBC reported just 10 min ago that all the previous leads have gone nowhere and the investigators are not sure where to concentrate next. Not very encouraging.

Yes, they have the DNA evidence but they realise the culprits may have escaped from the island shortly after the crime was committed.

I am predicting this will be another unsolved murder case as was the murder in Chiang Mai.

Likely there are dozens of people who know exactly what happened by this time. It is not like young Thais are known for caution and discretion.

Of course I am assuming that this was retaliation for perceived loss of face. That is probably the cause of half of Thailand's murders innit.

I was just reading this morning about the Kirsty Jones unsolved murder in Chiang Mai. It is unbelievable that because the prime suspect in that case had " influence in society " in the end they were never able to force him to provide a DNA sample.

You don't have to force anything at all... All one has to do is to get it. No matter where he goes... he leaves it. Perhaps you should follow him around for a few days.

[chotthee]

How can we trust DNA tests being performed in Thailand ? When you know how the police works here , I do not trust this test , The murders will never be solved unless someone comes forward.

You can trust DNA test done in Thailand.

The head of Thai forensic is a KhunYing (equivalent to Your Lady in UK), and with the aid of best the British Scientific equipment GT200.

[RickBradford]

How can we trust DNA tests being performed in Thailand ? When you know how the police works here , I do not trust this test , The murders will never be solved unless someone comes forward.

You can trust DNA test done in Thailand.

The head of Thai forensic is a KhunYing (equivalent to Your Lady in UK), and with the aid of best the British Scientific equipment GT200.

A very nasty trollish comment.

The GT200 is of course the fraudulent bomb detector, and the KhunYing reference can only be to the noted Thai forensic pathologist Khunying Pornthip Rojanasunand, who is controversial in Thailand because she doesn't toe the official line and is in many ways an iconoclast.

A poster with serious issues. DFTT.

[Fat Haggis]

Indeed they have, however the Patholigist in question was instrumental in saying the GT200's were great and worked.. which we all know to be untrue..

[Dub2dub]

Jesus,

You lot make the local thai police look good with your wild speculations and scenario's

Not one of you can claim to know, have worked out, deducted anything. There are a million scenario's that could have occurred.

For the sake of the family, please stop your assumptions, turn your efforts of keyboard warrioring into applying pressure to the countries authorities to put a proper investigation into place.

Yes we can probably all agree the last thing they want to do is hurt the tourism or accept any blame, but your efforts here are not helping the family, or thailand, just some kind of guessing game.

Write a letter demanding a proper investigation, there are not that many people in Koh Tao!

I've written my letter to the British embassy, maybe you should to.

[belg]

did they check people working in the bungalows? if they are so close and the workers know where to get one, to help kill the man ? possible? not ?

and they tried get rid of the bodies into the sea, but the sea pushed them back on the beach ?

[Beetlejuice]

The Thai Police have <deleted> this case. As things stand, I seriously doubt that the criminals will be caught and punished.

Despite what any of the posters on here think, you have to admit that this investigation has been a comedy of errors from the start, and even if UK Police officials were to be called in at this stage, we're several days down the line now since the murders, the attackers could be anywhere by now, further evidence could been hidden or destroyed, any witnesses could have moved on, or disappeared etc.

I hope that the family/friends of the girl have contacted the UK authorities and informed them of whoever it was that posted the details of what allegedly happened on the island to her Facebook page, as this is probably the lead that needs to be pursued now - by UK officials, not Thai.

I hope I am wrong and that this crime is solved though, fingers crossed.

When the prime minister suggested that tourists in bikinis made themselves more vulnerable – I interpret that as meaning women who walk about openly in revealing bikinis or swimwear, even if all in innocence, as well meaning safety advice and don`t believe his comments were in anyway directly aimed at the tragic victim, but only quoted in general terms, probably taking into consideration that the maniacs could still be in the vicinity.

The Thai police force can not in any-ways be compared with their Western counterparts, for reasons that they do not have adequate financing or the resources to investigate hard core complicated criminal cases efficiently. They only have the very basics of forensic equipment; they do not have the experts in the field, meaning there are no types of Quincy’s on their teams with all the state of the art resources at their disposal.

Unless there are obvious clues upon the crime scene or they receive a tip off or a suspect admits to the crime, than the Thai police are working against the odds, more or less based on fate that a breakthrough will transpire. These facts it appears is something that the western media fail to take into consideration, a complete lack of understanding of what is involved here and that the Thai police are under tremendous pressure and working flat out to quickly capture and bring these monsters to justice with the limited resources that they have available to them. A horrible and tragic state of affairs for everyone involved.

[Oww]

The Thai Police have <deleted> this case. As things stand, I seriously doubt that the criminals will be caught and punished.

Despite what any of the posters on here think, you have to admit that this investigation has been a comedy of errors from the start, and even if UK Police officials were to be called in at this stage, we're several days down the line now since the murders, the attackers could be anywhere by now, further evidence could been hidden or destroyed, any witnesses could have moved on, or disappeared etc.

I hope that the family/friends of the girl have contacted the UK authorities and informed them of whoever it was that posted the details of what allegedly happened on the island to her Facebook page, as this is probably the lead that needs to be pursued now - by UK officials, not Thai.

I hope I am wrong and that this crime is solved though, fingers crossed.

When the prime minister suggested that tourists in bikinis made themselves more vulnerable – I interpret that as meaning women who walk about openly in revealing bikinis or swimwear, even if all in innocence, as well meaning safety advice and don`t believe his comments were in anyway directly aimed at the tragic victim, but only quoted in general terms, probably taking into consideration that the maniacs could still be in the vicinity.

The Thai police force can not in any-ways be compared with their Western counterparts, for reasons that they do not have adequate financing or the resources to investigate hard core complicated criminal cases efficiently. They only have the very basics of forensic equipment; they do not have the experts in the field, meaning there are no types of Quincy’s on their teams with all the state of the art resources at their disposal.

Unless there are obvious clues upon the crime scene or they receive a tip off or a suspect admits to the crime, than the Thai police are working against the odds, more or less based on fate that a breakthrough will transpire. These facts it appears is something that the western media fail to take into consideration, a complete lack of understanding of what is involved here and that the Thai police are under tremendous pressure and working flat out to quickly capture and bring these monsters to justice with the limited resources that they have available to them. A horrible and tragic state of affairs for everyone involved.

How many saliva/dna swabs did the police do in the first 4 hours? How many police officers would it take to swab a few hundred people in 4 hours? Not that many. If they didn't think of doing it 'inadequate resources' can't be blamed. The cost of dna testing could be worked out later. But if they don't have the samples it doesn't much matter. Cotton swabs are 90 baht for 1,000.

[DekDaeng]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

If you had bothered to read your own link you would find (in red) DNA CANNOT: Determine the age or race of the donor

With respect, BullShit.

"A branch of Frudakis' company called AncestryByDNA aims to help genealogists explore the racial mix of their family trees with a simple DNA test. Unlike other DNA-testing kits, AncestryByDNA does not rely on Y-chromosome tests (which only males can use) or mitochondrial DNA. Instead, it looks at a person's Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs, or "snips" for short)—think of them as collections of letters among the long sentences of the human genome. Then, AncestryByDNA compares your SNPs to a database of results representing four main human racial groups, based on continent of origin: sub-Saharan African, Indo-European (Europeans, Middle Easterners and South Asians, such as Indians), East Asian (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Pacific Islanders) and Native American (ancient migrants to both North and South America). Originally, the test used six groups, distinguishing South Asian from European and Pacific Islander from East Asian, but the current version retreats from that until further refinement in an upcoming version 3.0."

familytreemagazine.

[DekDaeng]

How can we trust DNA tests being performed in Thailand ? When you know how the police works here , I do not trust this test , The murders will never be solved unless someone comes forward.

A 5 mill baht reward for information leading to ........... would probably do the trick -

[apalink_thailand]

It sounds to me as though there might have been multiple killers because of the sea water found in the male victim's lungs and evidence of a struggle by wounds on his body. One or more assailants was possibly attacking him including dragging him into the water, while one or more assailants was attacking the girl. The semen does not match the DNA of any of the suspects currently, and sound more like the actions of a local gang.

What possibly started as a rape ended in a double murder perhaps. Based on this and the murder weapon (the hoe), the investigation should also focus on local Thai suspects, as they have avoided even the mention of this for tourism reasons thus far only vaguely referring to one Asian-looking suspect.

I am not a policeman but isn't it possible that the victim was knocked unconscious and then aspirated the water? Sounds like he got a heavy blow to the back of the head.

[halloween]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

If you had bothered to read your own link you would find (in red) DNA CANNOT: Determine the age or race of the donor

With respect, BullShit.

"A branch of Frudakis' company called AncestryByDNA aims to help genealogists explore the racial mix of their family trees with a simple DNA test. Unlike other DNA-testing kits, AncestryByDNA does not rely on Y-chromosome tests (which only males can use) or mitochondrial DNA. Instead, it looks at a person's Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs, or "snips" for short)—think of them as collections of letters among the long sentences of the human genome. Then, AncestryByDNA compares your SNPs to a database of results representing four main human racial groups, based on continent of origin: sub-Saharan African, Indo-European (Europeans, Middle Easterners and South Asians, such as Indians), East Asian (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Pacific Islanders) and Native American (ancient migrants to both North and South America). Originally, the test used six groups, distinguishing South Asian from European and Pacific Islander from East Asian, but the current version retreats from that until further refinement in an upcoming version 3.0."

familytreemagazine.

With equal respect, you have quoted a sales pitch from a company quite willing to blow smoke up your bum in exchange fro real money. Has any reputable police force EVER cited a person's race from DNA evidence alone?

[ClutchClark]

DNA tests would show the ethnicity. DNA tests could easily be linked to relatives of any suspect from Koh Tao.

This smells very much like locals did it and the police can't or won't investigate or arrest them.

And that is why the British Embassy (joke) should insist on Scotland Yard Investigators, both Police and Forensic teams should be called in. Although probably to late for forensics, as the area is probably sufficiently contaminated by now?

jb1

Thailand is a sovereign nation.

If the crime occurred to a Thai couple vacationing in Britain would the Thai Embassy have a "right" to insist it be investigated by the Thai Police?

Ofcourse not.

But most certainly a lot of pressure can and should be applied. Especially if the police force of the country involved were/are pronven to be Inept.

Which isn't Rocket science in this case.

jb1

The Thai Police Force has done quite excellent detective work in the past involving violent crime.

[Jip66]

Two Ronnies 1976 Hardware Shop (Fork Handles) Sketch

Classic, just what I needed to cheer me up after 'recent events' in Thailand

[Beetlejuice]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

If you had bothered to read your own link you would find (in red) DNA CANNOT: Determine the age or race of the donor

With respect, BullShit.

"A branch of Frudakis' company called AncestryByDNA aims to help genealogists explore the racial mix of their family trees with a simple DNA test. Unlike other DNA-testing kits, AncestryByDNA does not rely on Y-chromosome tests (which only males can use) or mitochondrial DNA. Instead, it looks at a person's Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs, or "snips" for short)—think of them as collections of letters among the long sentences of the human genome. Then, AncestryByDNA compares your SNPs to a database of results representing four main human racial groups, based on continent of origin: sub-Saharan African, Indo-European (Europeans, Middle Easterners and South Asians, such as Indians), East Asian (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Pacific Islanders) and Native American (ancient migrants to both North and South America). Originally, the test used six groups, distinguishing South Asian from European and Pacific Islander from East Asian, but the current version retreats from that until further refinement in an upcoming version 3.0."

familytreemagazine.

With equal respect, you have quoted a sales pitch from a company quite willing to blow smoke up your bum in exchange fro real money. Has any reputable police force EVER cited a person's race from DNA evidence alone?

It does seem you are correct, that comes as a surprise to me. Check this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9912822/DNA-ancestry-tests-branded-meaningless.html

This means that the police are going to have an even more difficult task of finding the murderers.

[SantiSuk]

It would be nice to know if the DNA found in the semen was connected to the shared cigarette or the unshared one (or the lipstick one, but they didn't say they found DNA on that one). And what was the sex of the DNA found. If the shared one, then you have a strong suggestion of at least two attackers.

A hoe as a murder weapon seems to imply local people because tourists don't usually have access to hoes at night on the beach. Nor would they be likely to use one as a weapon, being unfamiliar with it.

Nor is it a common fishing boat tool....

The hoe being left at the crime scene definately points to a Thai female being involved in the crime. Thai men, as a rule, do not perform work that reqires a hoe or shovel. This work is left for the women.

Maybe where you come from and maybe if you are just looking in fields. Round here men labouring wield them all the time. Its the first thing my BILs pickup when they are doing stuff around the house and garden (mine and theirs) and what would be called groundworkers in the UK use them here all the time (Lower Isaan)

[SantiSuk]

Sky just ran a Skype interview with a Bangkok-based journo called Allesandro Uris (not sure I got the surname completely right). Reports on BBC and Sky had hitherto been very straight bat with neither of the two Jonathons saying anything that could possibly be detrimental to Thailand.

I thought Allesandro did a good job in painting Thai culture in terms of the likelihood of police here to 'find solutions' that do not reflect badly on Thailand and explaining that the Generals undiplomatic remarks are partly symptomatic of a culture which is patriarchal and forgiving on men when it comes to issues like rape and harrassment of women.

British viewers beginning to get a more complete picture of the situation and likelihood now that the case will remain unsolved.

[DekDaeng]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

If you had bothered to read your own link you would find (in red) DNA CANNOT: Determine the age or race of the donor

With respect, BullShit.

"A branch of Frudakis' company called AncestryByDNA aims to help genealogists explore the racial mix of their family trees with a simple DNA test. Unlike other DNA-testing kits, AncestryByDNA does not rely on Y-chromosome tests (which only males can use) or mitochondrial DNA. Instead, it looks at a person's Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs, or "snips" for short)—think of them as collections of letters among the long sentences of the human genome. Then, AncestryByDNA compares your SNPs to a database of results representing four main human racial groups, based on continent of origin: sub-Saharan African, Indo-European (Europeans, Middle Easterners and South Asians, such as Indians), East Asian (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Pacific Islanders) and Native American (ancient migrants to both North and South America). Originally, the test used six groups, distinguishing South Asian from European and Pacific Islander from East Asian, but the current version retreats from that until further refinement in an upcoming version 3.0."

familytreemagazine.

With equal respect, you have quoted a sales pitch from a company quite willing to blow smoke up your bum in exchange fro real money. Has any reputable police force EVER cited a person's race from DNA evidence alone?

Yes.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-16-dna_x.htm?csp=34

"Has the science for the AncestrybyDNA™ test been published in the scientific literature?

1. Parra, E., Marcini, A., Akey, J., Martinson, J., Batzer, M., Cooper, R., Forrester, T., Allison, D., Deka, R., Ferrell, R. and M. Shriver. 1998. Estimating African American Admixture Proportions by Use of Population Specific Alleles.Am. J. Hum. Genet. 63:1839-1851.
2. Pfaff, C., Parra, E., Bonilla, C., Hiester, K., McKeigue, P., Kamboh, M., Hutchinson, R., Ferrell, R., Boerwinkle, E., and M. Shriver.2001. Population Structure in Admixed Populations: Effect of Admixture Dynamics on the Pattern of Linkage Disequilibrium.Am. J. Hum. Genet. 68:198-207.
3. Parra, E., Kittles, R., Argyropoulos, G., Pfaff, C., Hiester, K., Bonilla, C., Sylvester, N., Parrish-Gause, C., Garvey, W., Jin, L., McKeigue, P., Kamboh, M., Ferrell, R., Pollitzer, W., and M. Shriver.2001. Ancestral Proportions and Admixture Dynamics in Geographically Defined African Americans Living in South Carolina.American Journal of Physical Anthropology 114:18-29.
4. Frudakis, T., V Kondragunta, M Thomas, Z Gaskin, S Ginjupalli, S Gunturi, V Ponnuswamy, S Natarajan, and P Nachimuthu. 2003. A Classifier for SNP-Based Inference of Ancestry. Journal of Forensics Sciences. 48(4):771-82."

[DekDaeng]

With respect, BullShit.

"A branch of Frudakis' company called AncestryByDNA aims to help genealogists explore the racial mix of their family trees with a simple DNA test. Unlike other DNA-testing kits, AncestryByDNA does not rely on Y-chromosome tests (which only males can use) or mitochondrial DNA. Instead, it looks at a person's Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs, or "snips" for short)—think of them as collections of letters among the long sentences of the human genome. Then, AncestryByDNA compares your SNPs to a database of results representing four main human racial groups, based on continent of origin: sub-Saharan African, Indo-European (Europeans, Middle Easterners and South Asians, such as Indians), East Asian (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Pacific Islanders) and Native American (ancient migrants to both North and South America). Originally, the test used six groups, distinguishing South Asian from European and Pacific Islander from East Asian, but the current version retreats from that until further refinement in an upcoming version 3.0."

familytreemagazine.

With equal respect, you have quoted a sales pitch from a company quite willing to blow smoke up your bum in exchange fro real money. Has any reputable police force EVER cited a person's race from DNA evidence alone?

It does seem you are correct, that comes as a surprise to me. Check this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9912822/DNA-ancestry-tests-branded-meaningless.html

This means that the police are going to have an even more difficult task of finding the murderers.

No; that is referring to determination of e.g. a famous possible ancestor. Nothing to do with race. It doesn't matter how many say it can't be done, one person who can reliably and repeatably do it 'blind', disproves all the others.

[tingtongfarang]

Has it been established that Dave and Hannah were even together or romantically linked prior to the night they were murdered? David had a girlfriend back in the UK according to some news articles, who said he was the love of her life, that struck me as a bit odd, as the feeling wasn't reciprocated if there was indeed a romantic connection between the deceased, and it must be quite distressing for the lass left at home wondering why?

For all intensive purposes, he could very easily have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, and was simply being a good samaritan and making sure Hannah got back to her hotel that night, IF there's any merit and truth about the unwanted attentions of a local Thai.

I'm sure that his travelling companions would have been able to shed light on the matter more.

The comments that came from the Chief of Police that his friend who was assisiting in the inquiries, that Chris was a homosexual and more or less implied he killed his life long friend needs to be looked at more closely, it was almost as if the Chief wasn't willing to see past the tree's and this would have been a simple case closed, fortunately for Chris the DNA didn't match, and the "blood" traces on his clothing was ruled out as a chemical and not blood at all (according to some other articles I've read).

Someone, or some persons murdered that couple, and everyone needs to put their prejudices aside, and sit back and let the investigation continue, the Police have been sadly lacking in my opinion, and have been the cause of so much misinformation, everyone on that Island is a suspect, Tourists, workers and locals alike, even the local coppers should be suspects..

For the armed, masked and uniformed mafia in such cases their interests are not finding the murderers but rather paid damage control.

[Jip66]

For those that think DNA can NOT prove race, I just read this from a BBC report concerning the Kirsty Jones murder in CM in 2000

Section: 'Positive steps' paragraph 7

"Police have a DNA profile of the suspect or somebody who helped them - the indications are that it was a person of south east Asian origin."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-23581393

[changnaam]

Looking at CCTV footage of the Asian guy who is now a suspect. He has scruffy shorts, no shirt and nothing on his feet. I would guess this is a migrant worker who has seen something trying to get as far away as possible.

Locals chasing western girls around the bars would not be dressed like this.

I am sure this guy knows something but doesn't want to be next in line.

This is absolutely sickening, I am sure many know who the culprits are, but too scared to come forward. This country gets worse, and the example being set from the top will only make it even worse.

[samuijimmy]

I am at a loss as to why a garden hoe would be on the beach except for one of the local food places using it when they set there tables up on the beach they bury electrical cable in the sand for the lights, it also stated that the female victim had blonde hair strands in her hair whilst it shows the British suspect having dark hair in the photo released . My fear is that due to the incompetence of the Thai police the killer/Killers will never be found which is not uncommon the only thing the local police are good at is taking fines off tourists for failing to wear a crash helmet they do not have the expertise or experience into such tragic circumstances

That's why they have sent in police from BKK... to carry out the investigation... they are not relying in the local police....

[Beetlejuice]

With respect, BullShit.

"A branch of Frudakis' company called AncestryByDNA aims to help genealogists explore the racial mix of their family trees with a simple DNA test. Unlike other DNA-testing kits, AncestryByDNA does not rely on Y-chromosome tests (which only males can use) or mitochondrial DNA. Instead, it looks at a person's Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs, or "snips" for short)—think of them as collections of letters among the long sentences of the human genome. Then, AncestryByDNA compares your SNPs to a database of results representing four main human racial groups, based on continent of origin: sub-Saharan African, Indo-European (Europeans, Middle Easterners and South Asians, such as Indians), East Asian (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Pacific Islanders) and Native American (ancient migrants to both North and South America). Originally, the test used six groups, distinguishing South Asian from European and Pacific Islander from East Asian, but the current version retreats from that until further refinement in an upcoming version 3.0."

familytreemagazine.

With equal respect, you have quoted a sales pitch from a company quite willing to blow smoke up your bum in exchange fro real money. Has any reputable police force EVER cited a person's race from DNA evidence alone?

It does seem you are correct, that comes as a surprise to me. Check this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9912822/DNA-ancestry-tests-branded-meaningless.html

This means that the police are going to have an even more difficult task of finding the murderers.

No; that is referring to determination of e.g. a famous possible ancestor. Nothing to do with race. It doesn't matter how many say it can't be done, one person who can reliably and repeatably do it 'blind', disproves all the others.

Yes, this is all very confusing.

I can remember when I lived in the States that there was a rape and tragically the victim was also murdered. It was all over the news where we lived. At that time DNA testing was still in the experimental stage.

This rape was one of the first lot of cases where DNA samples were taken and the tests said that the rapist was an African American man. Later an African American suspect was caught and the DNA samples taken from the victim and the suspect matched and the man was found guilty on DNA evidence.

To be honest I really am not sure, so are there any DNA experts in the house? As I would be very interested to know myself.

[katana]

They still haven't said if the blood on the hoe matched that of the victims. I would think they should be coming out with that first. They are trying to hard to blame someone and make arrests for the sake of it. It's also interesting that BBC are still stating the pair were captured on cctv when it was retracted earlier on, and also they mention that a motive may be that they were having sex on the beach which is taboo in Thai culture!

I seem to remember reading a report in the Thai press yesterday that DNA analysis confirmed that blood on the hoe matched that of the female victim.

[katana]

How you can say sounds like a local gang is beyond me. How in the heck can you deduct that ? Boggles the mind.

Err, because the island has a local gang problem. Maybe the same group who did this http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2014/09/17/islander-who-was-glassed-in-murder-island-koh-tao-tells-of-his-lucky-escape/

Or this http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11326687

If all the other suspects have been ruled out by DNA, the likely deduction is a local gang. That, and them overcoming two victims after a struggle that included being in the ocean for some time, plus reports of several sources of semen in the girl.

Interesting link (the second one) of what happened on Koh Phangan island when a British couple were caught having sex in the sea:

"...Charles, a 27-year-old who runs his own events company in London, recalls the sun rising on one such party in Koh Phangan. "There was this English couple who were having sex in the water, which was obviously incredibly disrespectful to the locals, but everybody went nuts. One Thai guy ran in there and just started attacking the man, then about 20 others followed and beat the absolute hell out of him, to the point where he was lifeless and face-down in the water. These Thai people came and drove a pick-up truck on to the beach, and then they just threw him into the back of it and drove off...."

[ClutchClark]

"...Charles, a 27-year-old who runs his own events company in London, recalls the sun rising on one such party in Koh Phangan. "There was this English couple who were having sex in the water, which was obviously incredibly disrespectful to the locals, but everybody went nuts. One Thai guy ran in there and just started attacking the man, then about 20 others followed and beat the absolute hell out of him, to the point where he was lifeless and face-down in the water. These Thai people came and drove a pick-up truck on to the beach, and then they just threw him into the back of it and drove off...."

When a person travels to a different country with a different culture then they should respect the ways of that culture or be prepared to face the punishment that culture has every right to exact.

If a foreign tourist couple starting "getting it on" right in front of my children in front of my house you can bet I would deal with it accordingly.

TIT, ihow they choose to run their country and express their culture is 100% their right.

[Bwanatickey]

So one day you happen to be in a situation where a Backpacker needs your advice, as he is scared and knows that you know something about Thailand and the locals, you are a seasoned dive instructor, and you think you know the locals.

He tells you that his best friend and girlfriend have been reportedly murdered, and he knows that they have not returned to the shared digs, and the night before there had been an altercation with a local boy.

Advice.

What advice would you give him ?

Go to the local police and tell them what had happened at the party, and they will know who to question as a possible suspect.

OR

Run, get the hell out of here, get back home as fast as possible.