Spouse visa to Italy (

[kopite]

Hi

My wife has booked an appointment for a visa for next month, and i would like for you to clarify what documents we need to present please. Please be aware that i am an UK citizien, my wife is a Thai citizien, and we are both living in Tenerife. My wife has spanish residency, (although it has expired and we have an appointment to renew it in November) and we both wish to join my father (italian) in italy to live.

On the website esteri.it it stats i need the following...

1. Visa application form (click here)

2. recent passport-style photo

3. Passport or travel document valid for at least three months after visa expiry date.

4. Copy of the EU or European Economic Area citizens identity document or passport along with a declaration requesting the presence of the family member in Italy and swearing to be in possession of the requisites foreseen by the law.

5. administrative documentation (marriage certificate, birth certificate, etc.) attesting to the familial relationship.

6.in the case of minor children, written permission from the child's other parent for visa to be issued.

I understand all the points except number 4. What would be a "with a declaration requesting the presence of the family member in Italy and swearing to be in possession of the requisites foreseen by the law".

And point number 5 would be our 'thai marriage certificate' accompanied with an official translation in italian..correct?

[paz]

4. is a guarantee declaration by the person that invites you in Italy.

You can use the following form, other forms are equivalent.

https://www.tlscontact.com/lb2it/upload/invitation_letter_from_host_lb_2it.it.pdf

5. Possibly you won't need an official translation, because it is not necessary to have a family relationship at all. Ask the Italian consulate.

As you probably know already, if your father is Italian, you're Italian also, and you can obtain an identity card and passport in Italy in a short time.

In that case, your wife can apply for Italian citizenship after two years if you reside in Italy, or three if you reside abroad. If you have children, these terms are halved.

Edited September 18, 2014 by paz

[kopite]

Thank you very, very much.

We will be definately going for the passport once we get there.

My daughter has dual uk/thai passports, would she be required to give one up in order to speed up my wifes application for her italian passport?

Edited September 18, 2014 by kopite

[paz]

No, Italy does not require anyone to renounce citizenship in order to acquire the Italian one.

If you have already your Italian ID card and passport, you can get them for your daughter too at the Italian consulate. She's Italian by birth. For that, at the minimum, you will need marriage and daughter birth certificate, translated and legalized.

Again with your Italian documents, in theory your wife could apply for citizenship at the the consulate. They may require that you have been registered with "AIRE" section for 18 months to prove your residency, but check with them. But since you've decided to move to Italy, it makes more sense that she applies in Italy when the time comes - one year. Be advised to follow all the bureaucracy to the letter, like stay permit, residence registration, foreign marriage registration, etc. That will give you and your family the right to the the national health service coverage. If you don't speak Italian good enough I recommend you take a smart, educated person to represent you at the offices, otherwise you may be easily taken for a ride.

Finally, note that applications for Italian citizenship (e.g. your wife, but not your daughter) have to be decided within two years, either when filed in Italy or abroad. It is known that competent authorities will tend to take all the possible time allowed by law.

Edited September 18, 2014 by paz

[kopite]

Going back to the translation, i have a thai-spanish tramslation of the marriage certificate, albeit from 2009. I have a spanish-italian translation as well. A translation of the translation lol. Not sure if either of these would be ok. Im struggling to get any info from the italian consulate.

Also do i need to book flights?

[Donutz]

1) It should be (especially of you have the orginal and both translations) but if you want to be save/sure a direct translation is an option.

2) No. See the Schengen sticky for instance, the other forum where you have an account or better yet official sources to confirm for yourself (found via the links provided on the forums). Passports+marriage certificate (and in most cases a translation)+declaration by you that you are heading for Italy together should be sufficient. No need for reservations/booking of flight, accommodation etc. no requirement for Insurance, proof of funds (during the first 3 months) or other things.

Edit: You may wish to double check and read the instructions on the embassies website, they should confirm this but various embassies do ask for more paperwork. Which they shouldn't, unless the paperwork you have does not show that you are genuinely married (doubt of true family relation). It may be faster to get any unnecessary paperwork they ask for though (and complain later with the embassy, ministry, EU etc.).

Edited September 29, 2014 by Donutz

[paz]

Going back to the translation, i have a thai-spanish tramslation of the marriage certificate, albeit from 2009. I have a spanish-italian translation as well. A translation of the translation lol. Not sure if either of these would be ok. Im struggling to get any info from the italian consulate.

I recommend you get a direct translation from an agency approved by the consulate. And have the consulate legalize it. The reason it that you may also need it to register your marriage and residence in Italy, thing that is necessary for .. a lot of reasons. Doing that will be cheaper in Thailand than in Italy.

Also do i need to book flights?

No.

Edited September 29, 2014 by paz

[kopite]

Im in spain paz. The canary islands to be specific. So im kinda stuck on translation options!

[paz]

They can be picky on what they accept.

If you rwife does not have the original with her, she can request a reprint of the marriage certificate at the amphur and have it stamped, then translate and legalize either.

All that assuming you as Italian citizen are the one supporting the application, otherwise the fact that you are married is pointless.

[kopite]

i am a UK citizien, not italian. we have original marriage certificate, translation into spanish from when we originally applied for a schenguen visa, and a translation of that dicument into italian. i have just received a email from the consulate.

Dear Mr Kopite,

the marriage certificate has to be with Apostille and then translated in Italian.

The declaration is from the European citizen requesting the presence of the family member with him/her in Italy. You have to fill it and sign it and add a copy of your document.

Best regards

Paola Notturno Granieri

Cancelliere Amministrativo

Ufficio Visti/Cittadinanza

Ambasciata d’Italia Madrid – Cancelleria consolare

[paz]

If you father is Italian, you are Italian, only you do not have obtained yet your Italian documents. But you're an European citizen, so for the purpose of the declaration, you can fill it instead of your father. Note when you will be in Italy, your rights as European are similar but not exactly the same as for Italians, so you should work on getting your Italian papers in full order if you intend to reside in Italy, and allow Italian/European citizenship for your wife.

Thailand doesn't do apostille. The Madrid office is mentioning that assuming you have a Spanish marriage certificate. For Thai documents, apostille is replaced by legalization, I think it can be done either at the Minister of Foreign affairs, or at a Thai consulate abroad. Do not try to take shortcuts with the Italian bureaucracy.

Edited September 30, 2014 by paz

[kopite]

Which means i need to legalize the italian translation of a our thai marriage certificate at a thai consulate. Correct?

[paz]

Which means i need to legalize the italian translation of a our thai marriage certificate at a thai consulate. Correct?

Actually after reading further, I believe the only place where you can legalize your Thai marriage certificate translation is in Bangkok:

Legalization Division

Department of Consular Affairs

Ministry of Foreign Affairs

123 Chaeng Wattana Road, 3rd Floor

Tung Song Hong, Laksi, Bangkok

Tel.: 02-575-1056 or 02-575-1057

I think you can do that with an agency, e.g.

http://www.consularservices.asia/legalization-verification-translation-documents-thailand/

Note, once you enter Italy, to legally stay longer than three months as EU citizen, you and your wife will need a stay permit. For that you will need to first be registered as resident and if not working, have income of at least 8,300 Eur per year (that includes your wife), plus certification of EU state or private health insurance. The applicable law is "D.Lgs. 30/2007". For this reason I underline again the need for you to reclaim your Italian citizenship, I understand it may not look important or prioritary to you, but believe me when you're in Italy, you will need it.

Edited September 30, 2014 by paz

[Donutz]

If Kopite enters Italy as a non Italian EU citizen and applies as an EU citizen traveling -exercising directive 2004/39/EC- with non EU family (spouse) then he cannot be legally obligated to provide certified (legalized) copies of the papers. The original documents that show family relation are sufficient. In the case of a spouse this would be the marital papers and incase of a child the birth certificate.

Obviously authorities will generally prefer and ask for a (official) translation and they often wish to see fancy stamps too. Though you are not obligated to, it does make things easier if you do provide items they request. Blogs such as http://eumovement.wordpress.com/ and http://www.freemovement.org.uk/ provide more information, as do dedicated forums (one of which Kopite is also a member). And ofcourse official sources such as EU webpages on travel and settlement/labour in other EU countries. http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm (Your Europe, Solvit, both can be contacted through there). Details on settlement are covered elsewhere on the Europa.eu page.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Donutz

[paz]

If Kopite enters Italy as a non Italian EU citizen and applies as an EU citizen traveling -exercising directive 2004/39/EC- with non EU family (spouse) then he cannot be legally obligated to provide certified (legalized) copies of the papers. The original documents that show family relation are sufficient. In the case of a spouse this would be the marital papers and incase of a child the birth certificate.

Correct. The thing is that in practice when leaving at the airport, the airline may want to see (for OP wife) a valid Schengen visa or residency papers as opposed to foreign/translated marriage papers. They may leave the matter to the Spanish border police (that will not care) or flat refuse boarding, or allow them, who knows. So, also considering that OP wife's Spanish residency has expired, I recommend she obtains a visa from the Italian consulate first. This way she will be in the best legal position possible.

[kopite]

Thai consulate in madrid have said they can not legalise any translation of the marriage certificate.

Edited September 30, 2014 by kopite

[paz]

Thai consulate in madrid have said they can not legalise any translation of the marriage certificate.

Correct, you have to do that in Bangkok.

[kopite]

So we cant do it then?

[paz]

So we cant do it then?

Check my post above that has the link to an agency (there may be others) that can do the paperwork for you.

[kopite]

Appointment on tuesday morning lol

[Donutz]

I agree, I'd either try to get the Spanish residence card renewed (I am loss why it doesn't state that his wife is a family member of an EU/EEA national, it should but this could be a mistake from a wrong application or oversight of the Spanish immigration department). and failing that, get a visa so that any border staff and airline checkin staff will see that his wife has every right to enter Italy and other EU/Schengen countries.

I do not know about Italian immigration and what would be wiser. Generally the EU/EEA freedom of movement rights are the way to go since it removes many obligations. Aslong as you do not rely on welfare they should be able to stay with very few other obligations. But in the long or short run an Italian application might be better of.. (if Italian immigration laws are that easy on applicants... I doubt it but I simply do not know). Kopite could read about the EU/EEA route under the Freedom of Movement directive and compare this to the other alternatives/routes open to him and decide what seems the preferred ( best, easiest, fastest) approach for him. I also do not know how stubborn the Italians are in proper application of the EU directive 2004/38/EC, such as asking for way too many documents or fancy stamps. If you can get them easily, I'd get them just to save arguing with officials who do not know or pretend not to know your rights. Being in the right is one thing, being granted your rights is a whole other and dragging things out in complaint letters or court may not be a nice experience (slow, ineffective in the short run etc.).

[paz]

Appointment on tuesday morning lol

Postpone or go and try anyway. Apostille/legalization are remnants of old times but the bureaucrats still hang to that.

In the worst case if you can make it to Italy even without a visa for your wife, you will have the same rights, because at the end of day, apostille or not, you're married.

[kopite]

Funny thing is, i sent the original email on the 16th of september and didnt receive a reply until today. Two weeks lol!

Hows that for efficiency!

We may go anyway, and if it fails ill drive to italy! F*** em!

Edited September 30, 2014 by kopite

[paz]

Well, the rules go in your favor, because there has been a clarification from the Italian MoE to say that family members of EU citizens do not need a visa to enter Italy, alone or together with you.

http://www.stranieriinitalia.it/ministero_degli_affari_esteri-cittadini_ue._ingressi_piu_semplici_per_i_familiari_extraue_17758.html

You both will still need to obtain a stay permit if staying longer than 3 months.

Edited September 30, 2014 by paz