Engine oil is consistently overfilled by the dealer

[BSJ]

In theory if overfilled to the point the oil hits the pistons at the bottom would be the only scenario I can think of

Well I guess if you looked at that with one eye closed and the other squinting with enough oil under the piston it could cause the rod to stretch and then kiss valves inducing rod bending....

Yeah nah. Not gunna happen.

More thinking about cavitating - bypassing the rings and "locking" = would have to be grossly overfilled but enough for it to start......

Trying to remember what exactly happened in a similar event/mishap I was asked to investigate (forget whether asked by a manufacturer or to assist BAR) - but it was years ago and the only time I'd been even remotely experienced something weird like that.....

Really, cavitating and bypassing the oil control rings.... I reckon that happens very rarely, in anycase the rings are rooted so the engine needed a rebuild anyways.

Cavitation will cause air bubbles to form in the oil (and a foam layer on top) which could lead to oil starvation in the main bearings and big end bearings. But what the he11 would you be doing to bring that on? Circuit racing? Well if so you do what you can to avoid it.....as they have done for decades.

If you have any oil passing the oil control rings it will get burnt in the combustion chamber and expelled out the exhaust as smoke, a la the millions of baht buses and trucks running around Thailand.

[WarpSpeed]

But that wasn't the question though was it Spooners? It can happen and it does, I've seen it first hand and just because all of the engine "experts" here (of which I also qualify) haven't, doesn't mean it can't or won't and not so rare as one would think just because it's not tracked down as the culprit, especially with today's engines that are increasingly being built lighter and with less metal. No one ever saw 2 massive high rise buildings come down in one day due to airplane's crashing into them before either, but guess what?

What happens in most cases is the constant pounding causes the rod to stress and fatigue over time. Fatigue also builds up heat in the metal magnifying the fatigue each time the engine runs, further weakening the metal, hence the example of metal getting hot when you continually bend it back and forth until it eventually it bends or worse case, snaps completely, though the latter is very rare in that extreme on stock engines in normal use. The result is that eventually on a compression stroke and when the rod is over-heated and softened with todays higher compression, higher revving engines it then bends and throws the entire engine out of balance and then it grenades eventually. The insidious part of that is that fatigue has already taken place, the cycle of stress already started, but the result may be months or years down the line and then who is going to think back about the time the engine was overfilled once or twice? It's a cumulative effect.

It doesn't bend significantly in most cases and sometimes it's hardly even noticeable to the naked eye but anyone who understands engines and the delicate balance they run under understands how a slight deviation from spec can take them apart. The problem is that most don't do a lot of forensics on the parts when this happens and just chalk it up to other fatigue sources and walk away, they also don't THINK reasonably about the impact forces that a revving engine can generate against a minimally-compressible liquid like motor oil when it impacts it, this entire debate is proof of that. Additionally cranks are not very strong as a rule they have multiple thin spots due to their designed offsets and oil journals running through them so they rely 100% on perfect balance to even keep them from coming apart themselves through centrifugal force.

Is it not true that crank bearings are very soft metal? The crank is technically never really supposed to touch those bearings it is supposed to ride on a thin layer of oil in perfect balance, when the crank continually contacts the oil surface at high rpms, it causes the crank and the rods to slam a bearing on each stroke eventually wearing flat spots into them and the rod bearings causing slap and this eventually throws the engine out of balance until a rod bends usually on a compression stroke and when the rod is not fully vertical, especially with the higher compression engines nowadays, because too much play has developed and it moves out of alignment for that nanosecond. I know you've taken engines apart before and noticed one or 2 sides of a given bearing having a flat (worn spot) while the rest of the bearing is almost new looking? Ever really looked into which side that was on? Ever really done in depth forensics of why that happened? It's a balance issue for whatever reason and that's the crux, most don't REALLY study the reason. Since much of my engine experience focuses on stock engines under the highest stress loads for long term endurance racing and not fully constructed race engines, so many here mistakenly think out of ignorance. As some-time works teams the manufacturer wants us to do in depth forensics and give them input and then they do their own forensics to confirm or deny our findings. We have actually intentionally run engines on dynos for hours with over filled cranks and then torn them down to evaluate any damage done.

I'll tell you exactly what we found with Honda B18c type R engines, they fatigue the rod cap bolts first and then the bearing's fail and the engine comes apart or the cap bolts just snap altogether. The thing is, the engines were still pulling like a horse even at those Rpm's so we wanted that higher revving advantage. This was a problem with the engines if shifting over 9000 RPM's too much also, (we didn't have rev limiters, only a light to notify) generally we like to shift @ about 8600 but that comes pretty quickly with those engines, at any rate the rod bolts fracturing was magnified and accelerated when the crank was over-filled, it took about half as long as just over revving alone. Our solution (besides the obvious of not over filling) was simply to keep track of the number of over-revs with our data and simply remove the oil pan and change the rod bolts regularly and problem solved, from that point on those engines were virtually bullet proof in stock form, and we got insane running hours between rebuilds thus cutting our costs significantly too but in the end they were not purpose built racing engines.

One last note, we also added a sump tank, we were overfilling unknowingly thinking it was harmless, because those engines were known for using a lot of oil just in normal operation and when the oil pressure dropped to a certain point (approx 25PSI) while cornering they had a safety that would not allow the V-tec to kick in and we were endurance racing them so this was a problem.

Edited October 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Well I guess if you looked at that with one eye closed and the other squinting with enough oil under the piston it could cause the rod to stretch and then kiss valves inducing rod bending....

Yeah nah. Not gunna happen.

More thinking about cavitating - bypassing the rings and "locking" = would have to be grossly overfilled but enough for it to start......

Trying to remember what exactly happened in a similar event/mishap I was asked to investigate (forget whether asked by a manufacturer or to assist BAR) - but it was years ago and the only time I'd been even remotely experienced something weird like that.....

Really, cavitating and bypassing the oil control rings.... I reckon that happens very rarely, in anycase the rings are rooted so the engine needed a rebuild anyways.

Cavitation will cause air bubbles to form in the oil (and a foam layer on top) which could lead to oil starvation in the main bearings and big end bearings. But what the he11 would you be doing to bring that on? Circuit racing? Well if so you do what you can to avoid it.....as they have done for decades.

If you have any oil passing the oil control rings it will get burnt in the combustion chamber and expelled out the exhaust as smoke, a la the millions of baht buses and trucks running around Thailand.

You don't need to be circuit racing, people here are so hung up on that because (and I'm sorry there is no way around saying this firmly, but they are ignorant about what is learned from racing that directly applies to daily driving, these threads and all of the mindless shots taken are a perfect example of that) highway driving will definitely cause that, without question. All circuit racing does is provide a testing and proving ground of extreme examples and accelerated conditions to what equipment faces daily or over a vehicles lifetime and it's WHY so many manufacturers participate, it makes the breed stronger, especially STOCK based series.

Edited October 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[pgrahmm]

In theory if overfilled to the point the oil hits the pistons at the bottom would be the only scenario I can think of

Well I guess if you looked at that with one eye closed and the other squinting with enough oil under the piston it could cause the rod to stretch and then kiss valves inducing rod bending....

Yeah nah. Not gunna happen.

More thinking about cavitating - bypassing the rings and "locking" = would have to be grossly overfilled but enough for it to start......

Trying to remember what exactly happened in a similar event/mishap I was asked to investigate (forget whether asked by a manufacturer or to assist BAR) - but it was years ago and the only time I'd been even remotely experienced something weird like that.....

Really, cavitating and bypassing the oil control rings.... I reckon that happens very rarely, in anycase the rings are rooted so the engine needed a rebuild anyways.

Wife is watching some Thai dubbed movie.....thinking back on this....

I think this is how it happened - been awhile - but was so obscure....kind of the opposite of what we'd think......Parents buy HS age kid a new economy car as a coming of age gift....new driver - new car.....kid tried to be consciencous and and check the fluid levels...of course they can see the the brake fluid, steering reservoir, etc......but - upon taking the oil filler cap off to check the oil level does not see any oil..... no clue about a dipstick so the kid proceeds to put in what they think is the right amount of oil to top of the engine......kid is out driving the car and blam.....has to be towed in to the dealership.....

Now - we have a set of really pissed off parents - the new car they just bought and gave to their child as a gift stranded their baby.....the child tells the parents they had to put oil in the car because it left the dealer with no oil..... now fingers are being pointed at the dealer and some are back on their heels - others are aggressive (parents).....dealer cannot give out a loaner car because the child is under 21-25 and parents don't want to swap cars - and of course it's all the dealers/cars fault (what happened to the oil in the brand new car) in their eyes.....

A total good intentioned non win situation.....

Finally - the truth comes out with tear down/inspection (pictures and double checks in case of lawsuit) and questioning the kid....parents do an about face - kid (and parents) feel stupid as does everyone involved by this time.....but - they are liable for repairs for the damage their kid did - spoke with parents and - if needed they give OK for repairs costs - new car/new engine & not cheap (I can't make any promises).....bottom line - we got the repairs done as goodwill policy - the parents are then happy without a loaner car and are more than patient with the time frame of the repair.....the kid I'm sure heard it from all sides.....

The parents & kid are good people and there is an educational happy ending.....

[Spoonman]

waffle waffle dribble crap waffle waffle

I'll tell you exactly what we found with Honda B18c type R engines, they fatigue the rod cap bolts first and then the bearing's fail and the engine comes apart or the cap bolts just snap altogether. The thing is, the engines were still pulling like a horse even at those Rpm's so we wanted that higher revving advantage. This was a problem with the engines if shifting over 9000 RPM's too much also, (we didn't have rev limiters, only a light to notify) generally we like to shift @ about 8600 but that comes pretty quickly with those engines, at any rate the rod bolts fracturing was magnified and accelerated when the crank was over-filled, it took about half as long as just over revving alone. Our solution was simply to keep track of the number of over-revs with our data and simply remove the oil pan and change the rod bolts regularly and problem solved, from that point on those engines were virtually bullet proof in stock form, and we got insane running hours between rebuilds thus cutting our costs significantly too but in the end they were not purpose built racing engines.

So your racing class restricted you to stock rod bolts ?

And no rev limiter and over filled sump..... what sort of amateur set-up was it ?

Edited October 3, 2014 by Spoonman

[WarpSpeed]

It is STOCK racing, not EVERY type of pro class is exorbitantly expensive. The classes are full, the competition is way better then ANY form of racing I know of and gives the driver more opportunity to display their skills because it's more about drivers talents then it is their wallet size. We disconnected the rev limiter, no need for it and left it to the drivers and have a light only to warn of shift limits, usually set at 8800RPM's. Nothing at all amateur about it, just a different form of racing. Many of todays performance street cars for the most part have more power and better handling then even recent past F1 cars have had, it's a much greater driver challenge not to have all the aids and expensive technology and be on DOT street legal tires then it is to drive a perfectly compliant car that nearly drives itself.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see your crass and ignorant remarks about waffling you must have edited after posting, so you want to start with me?? That was a perfectly concise and well worded explanation of what occurs so now my respect for you has waned as I expected you of people would be capable of understanding it..

Edited October 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[Spoonman]

It is STOCK racing, not EVERY type of pro class is exorbitantly expensive. The classes are full, the competition is way better then ANY form of racing I know of and gives the driver more opportunity to display their skills because it's more about drivers talents then it is their wallet size. We disconnected the rev limiter, no need for it and left it to the drivers and have a light only to warn of shift limits, usually set at 8800RPM's. Nothing at all amateur about it, just a different form of racing. Many of todays performance street cars for the most part have more power and better handling then even recent past F1 cars have had, it's a much greater driver challenge not to have all the aids and expensive technology and be on DOT street legal tires then it is to drive a perfectly compliant car that nearly drives itself.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see your crass and ignorant remarks about waffling you must have put up after posting, so you want to start with me?? That was a perfectly concise and well worded explanation of what occurs so now you have lost any respect I had for you if your that incapable of understanding it..

Yes I know about "stock" racing.

I have been involved with cars for this type of class in both Australia and Thailand.

They have very strict limitations, stock camshaft/stock valves/stock throttle body/stock (looking) intake manifold/stock stroke/stock bore..any other intake or exhaust or engine mod is free.

Baffles me why if you have identified the rod bolts as a weak link you would not upgrade them (unless it is specified in the rules you cannot, which you ignored when asked about).

On a bright note though good to see you added 200rpm to your shift light point from one post to the next..... what else will you "adjust" to suit your story ?

At the end of the day all of this is pointless in answering the OP though.

[transam]

Rods will not fail through over filling the oil level......Rods fail via whats happening above the piston.

If some clown has over filled the sump so the piston contacts it it will just push the oil into the cylinder where the piston is on it's way up.....Let's move on eh...

[Spoonman]

Rods will not fail through over filling the oil level......Rods fail via whats happening above the piston.

If some clown has over filled the sump so the piston contacts it it will just push the oil into the cylinder where the piston is on it's way up.....Let's move on eh...

But but.... some clown has experience to prove otherwise................

[transam]

Rods will not fail through over filling the oil level......Rods fail via whats happening above the piston.

If some clown has over filled the sump so the piston contacts it it will just push the oil into the cylinder where the piston is on it's way up.....Let's move on eh...

But but.... some clown has experience to prove otherwise................

We wait for the explanation then..........

[WarpSpeed]

It is STOCK racing, not EVERY type of pro class is exorbitantly expensive. The classes are full, the competition is way better then ANY form of racing I know of and gives the driver more opportunity to display their skills because it's more about drivers talents then it is their wallet size. We disconnected the rev limiter, no need for it and left it to the drivers and have a light only to warn of shift limits, usually set at 8800RPM's. Nothing at all amateur about it, just a different form of racing. Many of todays performance street cars for the most part have more power and better handling then even recent past F1 cars have had, it's a much greater driver challenge not to have all the aids and expensive technology and be on DOT street legal tires then it is to drive a perfectly compliant car that nearly drives itself.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see your crass and ignorant remarks about waffling you must have put up after posting, so you want to start with me?? That was a perfectly concise and well worded explanation of what occurs so now you have lost any respect I had for you if your that incapable of understanding it..

Yes I know about "stock" racing.

I have been involved with cars for this type of class in both Australia and Thailand.

They have very strict limitations, stock camshaft/stock valves/stock throttle body/stock (looking) intake manifold/stock stroke/stock bore..any other intake or exhaust or engine mod is free.

Baffles me why if you have identified the rod bolts as a weak link you would not upgrade them (unless it is specified in the rules you cannot, which you ignored when asked about).

On a bright note though good to see you added 200rpm to your shift light point from one post to the next..... what else will you "adjust" to suit your story ?

At the end of the day all of this is pointless in answering the OP though.

I didn't ignore it, you can't upgrade to aftermarket because that deviates from "stock", I.E. no the rules don't allow it, and yes I knew you were involved with stock racing which is also why I respected your opinion on so many topics here, you have an understanding most here don't and I can relate to that. Until now at least..

The reasoning behind not allowing upgrades is so that one manufacturer can't get over on another and over-complicate tech inspections, but also built in weak points as it were, which is why we had to find our own solution within the rules which is the really challenging aspect of stock racing where most vehicles are so equal and especially within brands and models, far from unprofessional like other series where you can just out spend the competition. Additionally so that the rules don't creep into really expensive upgrades to compete. The Acura type R was dominating in stock form so they were very strict on what could and couldn't be done, the following year they even disallowed headers as they were giving them too much power over the competition. We won 9 out of 11 races which is a series record and the championship.

Edited October 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Rods will not fail through over filling the oil level......Rods fail via whats happening above the piston.

If some clown has over filled the sump so the piston contacts it it will just push the oil into the cylinder where the piston is on it's way up.....Let's move on eh...

What?? You supposedly "knowledgeable" people really have no clue about hydraulics do you? You realize that oil is only minutely compressible? With the pace that a rotating crank strikes oil even at idle if it is high enough to do so, the oil will do nothing but sit there and be smashed by the rods and crank, it is going to splash but not displace if you understand the difference between those terms..Splashing by the way is AFTER a very hard impact with the standing oil equal to hammering against any hard object, how long do you think a crank and or rods can take that sort of pounding?..Never mind, rhetorical question and probably like usual, a wasted one, because one has to have open minded, abstract thought and perception to consider a reasoned answer.

Edited October 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Rods will not fail through over filling the oil level......Rods fail via whats happening above the piston.

If some clown has over filled the sump so the piston contacts it it will just push the oil into the cylinder where the piston is on it's way up.....Let's move on eh...

But but.... some clown has experience to prove otherwise................

And some clowns don't know when to just sit, be quite and listen (or read) and learn from more experienced people. Not everything in life is absolute but you must be young still so you haven't realized that yet..

[WarpSpeed]

Rods will not fail through over filling the oil level......Rods fail via whats happening above the piston.

If some clown has over filled the sump so the piston contacts it it will just push the oil into the cylinder where the piston is on it's way up.....Let's move on eh...

But but.... some clown has experience to prove otherwise................

We wait for the explanation then..........

You've gotten the explanation already have you even bothered to READ it? Or is just over your head like so much I post on this forum usually is for so many here..

Edited October 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[transam]

Rods will not fail through over filling the oil level......Rods fail via whats happening above the piston.

If some clown has over filled the sump so the piston contacts it it will just push the oil into the cylinder where the piston is on it's way up.....Let's move on eh...

But but.... some clown has experience to prove otherwise................

And some clowns don't know when to just sit, be quite and listen (or read) and learn from more experienced people. Not everything in life is absolute but you must be young still so you haven't realized that yet..

You are saying a rod will bend/break when the CRANK hits oil................

Do you actually know what a big end is......?

Edited October 3, 2014 by transam

[Spoonman]

It is STOCK racing, not EVERY type of pro class is exorbitantly expensive. The classes are full, the competition is way better then ANY form of racing I know of and gives the driver more opportunity to display their skills because it's more about drivers talents then it is their wallet size. We disconnected the rev limiter, no need for it and left it to the drivers and have a light only to warn of shift limits, usually set at 8800RPM's. Nothing at all amateur about it, just a different form of racing. Many of todays performance street cars for the most part have more power and better handling then even recent past F1 cars have had, it's a much greater driver challenge not to have all the aids and expensive technology and be on DOT street legal tires then it is to drive a perfectly compliant car that nearly drives itself.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see your crass and ignorant remarks about waffling you must have put up after posting, so you want to start with me?? That was a perfectly concise and well worded explanation of what occurs so now you have lost any respect I had for you if your that incapable of understanding it..

Yes I know about "stock" racing.

I have been involved with cars for this type of class in both Australia and Thailand.

They have very strict limitations, stock camshaft/stock valves/stock throttle body/stock (looking) intake manifold/stock stroke/stock bore..any other intake or exhaust or engine mod is free.

Baffles me why if you have identified the rod bolts as a weak link you would not upgrade them (unless it is specified in the rules you cannot, which you ignored when asked about).

On a bright note though good to see you added 200rpm to your shift light point from one post to the next..... what else will you "adjust" to suit your story ?

At the end of the day all of this is pointless in answering the OP though.

I didn't ignore it, you can't upgrade to aftermarket because that deviates from "stock", I.E. no the rules don't allow it,

Ok so you must run stock rod bolts.

why the overfill of the sump ?

And also the extra 200rpm in your story.

Interesting stock class with these restrictions, are the rules online that I can look at ?

[WarpSpeed]

^^I'm saying that steel bends against hard objects when it impacts them, can you not understand that when it impacts oil at those speeds it is hitting it with impact forces that equal it hitting concrete or something equally as hard? If you can't understand that basic concept then you can't have this discussion it's over your head..

Edited October 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[Spoonman]

^^I'm saying that steel bends against hard objects when it impacts them, can you not understand that when it impacts oil at those speeds it is hitting it with impact forces that equal it hitting concrete or something equally as hard? If you can't understand that basic concept then you can't have this discussion it's over your head..

how full is this sump of oil you are talking about and why did you experience this rod bending with your engines.....

you do know when you fill an engine with oil it is to the suggested marks on the dipstick yeah......

Stil cannot understand how an over filled sump can bend a conrod unless it was that full somehow the oil made it's way into the combustion chamber.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Spoonman

[WarpSpeed]

It is STOCK racing, not EVERY type of pro class is exorbitantly expensive. The classes are full, the competition is way better then ANY form of racing I know of and gives the driver more opportunity to display their skills because it's more about drivers talents then it is their wallet size. We disconnected the rev limiter, no need for it and left it to the drivers and have a light only to warn of shift limits, usually set at 8800RPM's. Nothing at all amateur about it, just a different form of racing. Many of todays performance street cars for the most part have more power and better handling then even recent past F1 cars have had, it's a much greater driver challenge not to have all the aids and expensive technology and be on DOT street legal tires then it is to drive a perfectly compliant car that nearly drives itself.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see your crass and ignorant remarks about waffling you must have put up after posting, so you want to start with me?? That was a perfectly concise and well worded explanation of what occurs so now you have lost any respect I had for you if your that incapable of understanding it..

Yes I know about "stock" racing.

I have been involved with cars for this type of class in both Australia and Thailand.

They have very strict limitations, stock camshaft/stock valves/stock throttle body/stock (looking) intake manifold/stock stroke/stock bore..any other intake or exhaust or engine mod is free.

Baffles me why if you have identified the rod bolts as a weak link you would not upgrade them (unless it is specified in the rules you cannot, which you ignored when asked about).

On a bright note though good to see you added 200rpm to your shift light point from one post to the next..... what else will you "adjust" to suit your story ?

At the end of the day all of this is pointless in answering the OP though.

I didn't ignore it, you can't upgrade to aftermarket because that deviates from "stock", I.E. no the rules don't allow it,

Ok so you must run stock rod bolts.

why the overfill of the sump ?

And also the extra 200rpm in your story.

Interesting stock class with these restrictions, are the rules online that I can look at ?

I explained that while running endurance races anything from 2 to 24 hours, the type R uses a lot of oil more than most engines, silly us, like the rest of you, at the time, we naively thought and were told by other "experts" it would not do any harm so we would overfill in order to avoid stopping and having to do it during a given race, even though we would also loose a bit of hp doing this, temporarily, until it dropped to a reasonable level it was also not worth the lost time to refill as that's a time consuming process when talking about the average pit stop but we found out it was damaging the engines and causing rod failures and bolts more quickly. We then went to an Accusump to provide enough oil an pre-lube prior to start up, initially we didn't want to add the extra weight but the advantages far outweighed the weight added, especially in endurance racing.

I also need to include that we had taken a trick from drag racing and used the exhaust flow to extract air pressure from within the crank case instead of the usual PCV vacuum so as not to pull dirty air through the engine again but initially since this design was only used for short runs and had never been used on endurance cars the vacuum created was incredible when not building up and it sucked out large quantities of oil and dropped our levels very quickly and dangerously. So I used a modified PCV valve in the O2 sensor hole to prevent back flow during pressure changes while shifting and deceleration and installed a breather with an adjustable valve and gauge on it to adjust how much vacuum was generated and the rest went to waste. This was eventually modified again though and I moved it more downstream and put more of an angle on the bung to improve exhaust flow and provide less possibility for back flow.

Xtra 200 rpm's? No idea what you're talking about? The cars stock red line was 8500 usually limited to about 8200, it could easily do 9000 safely and still pulling hard so being a small bore engine we wanted that xtra for torque and less shifting, we unlimited the rpm's and added a shift light and chip to notify @ 8800 in case you were engaged in racing or whatever and couldn't physically view the tach or hear your engine note in traffic. That was our preferred shifting point just prior to 9000, where's the confusion?

Personally I hate limiters would rather go over occasionally if necessary and not have the engine cutting out on me at critical times like possibly passing, exceeding max rpm's on most engines only occasionally and for brief moments does them little harm, floating valves is generally not a concern, you may just loose power curve but not nearly as much as if the limiter kicks in and I also believe throwing the engine out of balance at high speed by intentionally causing misfires does it more harm than good, common sense should dictate that.

Edited October 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

^^I'm saying that steel bends against hard objects when it impacts them, can you not understand that when it impacts oil at those speeds it is hitting it with impact forces that equal it hitting concrete or something equally as hard? If you can't understand that basic concept then you can't have this discussion it's over your head..

how full is this sump of oil you are talking about and why did you experience this rod bending with your engines.....

you do know when you fill an engine with oil it is to the suggested marks on the dipstick yeah......

Stil cannot understand how an over filled sump can bend a conrod unless it was that full somehow the oil made it's way into the combustion chamber.

I gave a comprehensive explanation of the process that happens internally and I'm guessing either you failed to read it thoroughly blindly dismissing it out of hand or you didn't digest the contents but either way I already posed the circumstances under which it happens without entering the combustion chamber. The other queries you have, have also been answered and answered now again in my most recent post.

[whaleboneman]

When people have funny ideas they usually get flustered if you ask them to point out even one credible source. Really, it's no use arguing with them.

If the engine can start with overfilled sump, the oil will be pushed out of the way by the rods and crank webs and therefore there will be little oil in the way to impact.

There is no documented evidence of rods bending from hitting oil in a sump.

[WarpSpeed]

When people have funny ideas they usually get flustered if you ask them to point out even one credible source. Really, it's no use arguing with them.

If the engine can start with overfilled sump, the oil will be pushed out of the way by the rods and crank webs and therefore there will be little oil in the way to impact.

There is no documented evidence of rods bending from hitting oil in a sump.

Also when people are locked in their ways and have no sources to prove otherwise they look foolish challenging people who have empirical experience and nothing of substance to counter it with. It wasn't that long ago when the masses were saying there was no way you could get 100 or more HP out of a 1l engine either, but Ford does.. Get what I'm saying? ............. Doubtful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lLdjn5Y6AU

[Spoonman]

^^I'm saying that steel bends against hard objects when it impacts them, can you not understand that when it impacts oil at those speeds it is hitting it with impact forces that equal it hitting concrete or something equally as hard? If you can't understand that basic concept then you can't have this discussion it's over your head..

how full is this sump of oil you are talking about and why did you experience this rod bending with your engines.....

you do know when you fill an engine with oil it is to the suggested marks on the dipstick yeah......

Stil cannot understand how an over filled sump can bend a conrod unless it was that full somehow the oil made it's way into the combustion chamber.

I gave a comprehensive explanation of the process that happens internally and I'm guessing either you failed to read it thoroughly blindly dismissing it out of hand or you didn't digest the contents but either way I already posed the circumstances under which it happens without entering the combustion chamber. The other queries you have, have also been answered and answered now again in my most recent post.

I never blindly dismissed anything other some diatribe about some race car (that is not a race car) which the author spews forth crap about nothing that impacts the daily running of a vanilla vehicle.

And said crap spewed forth makes one scratch head about the actual race operation given it seems to be the sole basis for the wealth (good or bad presented) of knowledge.

[WarpSpeed]

What will it take? Even with you? IT IS A STOCK ENGINE IN EVERY SENSE.. The only thing racing does is magnify a real world condition.. Every thing is 100% applicable in every sense....END OF............... OK so now go about disproving my presentation with sensible knowledge and application and not some more personal, dismissive, rhetoric. Never mind, it's beyond you and others who can only call for internet sources as if it was the be all end all of the informed world as if there is no posted in the web?..Displaying even more ignorance to rely so heavily on that source. You know what? It occurs to me though, I tried searching for a procedure I wanted to do on a car I purchased the other day and guess what? No info. so I guess it doesn't exist? So no point..

So it's not a race car then? BS...Now you've really displayed your backside.. Guess all this time I gave you too much unearned credit.

Edited October 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[Lickey]

Diesels of 30/40 years ago had an excess fuel button on the injector pump, in-cab, you had to press full throttle, pull the handle, release throttle and start, once started it would go to normal running,

Later, this was done automaticlly, excess fuel at cranking speed, engine starts, normal fueling, easy, but emission laws stopped this, now its all pre-heat stuff,,

Oil overfill? this is difficult, reason is 15 years ago i had to rebuild a V12 Dorman 1.5kv gen set engine which had seized due to one of the auto shutdown sensors not working, 6 weeks later, after pistons,heads,turbos,water pumps,hoses,injectors, all was ready to test, in the 30 min first test we had to test all the shut down stuff,low water,low oil/pressure,air louvres not opening, [containerized gen set] each test would bring in the air shut-off gates to the turbos, the 24 ltr engine would stop in under 2 secs, preventing damage to the 200k dollar lump, so, ready for the 24 hr test now, all the levels were good to go, 3 thermal load banks were ready to match the 1.5kv output, i was a bit worried about oil consumption, being a basically new engine, the workshop manual said to add 5 gallons in increments over the 24 hours, which i did, the last of wch was when it was 30mins into its full power test, it was like standing inside a jet engine, the noise, the wind, anyway, 15 min slowdown, check all levels, leaks ect, the oil, spot on,,

Many industrial oil/fuel filters of the upside down type had a spring loaded plate in the threaded part, you can open this with a biro or something and get the fluid in,

[WarpSpeed]

It is STOCK racing, not EVERY type of pro class is exorbitantly expensive. The classes are full, the competition is way better then ANY form of racing I know of and gives the driver more opportunity to display their skills because it's more about drivers talents then it is their wallet size. We disconnected the rev limiter, no need for it and left it to the drivers and have a light only to warn of shift limits, usually set at 8800RPM's. Nothing at all amateur about it, just a different form of racing. Many of todays performance street cars for the most part have more power and better handling then even recent past F1 cars have had, it's a much greater driver challenge not to have all the aids and expensive technology and be on DOT street legal tires then it is to drive a perfectly compliant car that nearly drives itself.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see your crass and ignorant remarks about waffling you must have put up after posting, so you want to start with me?? That was a perfectly concise and well worded explanation of what occurs so now you have lost any respect I had for you if your that incapable of understanding it..

Yes I know about "stock" racing.

I have been involved with cars for this type of class in both Australia and Thailand.

They have very strict limitations, stock camshaft/stock valves/stock throttle body/stock (looking) intake manifold/stock stroke/stock bore..any other intake or exhaust or engine mod is free.

Baffles me why if you have identified the rod bolts as a weak link you would not upgrade them (unless it is specified in the rules you cannot, which you ignored when asked about).

On a bright note though good to see you added 200rpm to your shift light point from one post to the next..... what else will you "adjust" to suit your story ?

At the end of the day all of this is pointless in answering the OP though.

So I've read, so in your case though pick up trucks and Fiestas apparently are race cars (?) even though you've never seen and never will see in either of those vehicles anything even close to the speeds that my (not a racing, mostly stock, Acura type R) saw regularly at Daytona alone as well as other tracks which was well up to 150mph (even more if drafting) for a stock based car. 200 RPM's seriously? You're that much of a nut case?

Edited October 5, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[Spoonman]

So you geared your little stock 4cyl to run 150mph on a big oval track.... your point is ?

[Ace of Pop]

Seems like the Tyre Fitter arguing with Stig the Driver to Me.

[Spoonman]

Seems like the Tyre Fitter arguing with Stig the Driver to Me.

I have a feeling your "Stig The Driver" cut his racing teeth playing Gran Turismo and Forza on the Xbox and never actually made it to a real track.

[kartman]

Seems like the Tyre Fitter arguing with Stig the Driver to Me.

I have a feeling your "Stig The Driver" cut his racing teeth playing Gran Turismo and Forza on the Xbox and never actually made it to a real track.

He can always post undoctered photos / videos of the racing/cars the same way Murf bravely does.