'Two Scotlands have emerged'

[webfact]

Scottish Referendum: 'Two Scotlands have emerged'
By Allan Little
BBC News

(BBC) Questions of national identity have been raised after Scotland's referendum. BBC special correspondent Allan Little considers the campaign and its fallout.

The Scotland my grandparents, born in the first decade of the 20th Century, lived in, was the Scotland of the Empire.

Even in our remote little village, which seemed impossibly distant even from Glasgow, was connected intimately to the great wide world through the shared global enterprise of the British Empire.

My parents' generation, born in the 1930s, lived as children through the Second World War, from which Britain emerged with immense moral and international stature.

Theirs was also the Britain of the post-war welfare state. In the Scotland of my youth, the British state was still digging coal, building ships, milling steel.

Empire, industry, world war, welfare state: those were the powerful things that locked Scotland into the Union, that gave generations of Scottish people a sense of partnership in a common purpose.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29300724


-- BBC 2014-09-22

[Ulysses G.]

Scotland is part of the UK. Case closed.

[icare999]

As an englishman i wanted Scotland to vote yes since I'm fed up with their winging and moaning about being governed by english when in fact its english governed by them if Labour win next election. Since UK is going to give Scotland even more powers time for England to have its own government and parliament. I note Labour party say they rule out a federal UK and reason is obvious since they would never IMO get elected in England.

To ensure no part is much much bigger or stronger than rest we should go rob a federal system with england also being split into 4-6 federal states. Of COurse London and South east will dominate since thats where money is but i dont see why the north east north west West and say midlands could not have their own devolved parliaments with same powers we are giving to Scotland.

TO do otherwise would be totally unfair to English and many IMO will vote UKIP if english dont get a proper share. But of course thats also what Labour party want to split main.ly right wing vote

I left UK in 70's because of awful socialist governments then. Dead left unburied, rubbish not collected and rotting in streets. sick man of europe and UK having to go cap in hand to IMF Tax rates at 98% and exchange controls so you could not even have freedom to take your money out. People have a very short memory.

[BATHIK]

Identity cannot be legislated, the loss in the referendum must have affected everyone to some degree but the article talks about 40% of voters crossing into independence camp in a space of only fifteen years.

A couple more screwups by London and the issue will come up again, and who knows how it would turn out next time around.

The fact is that there are 1.6 million people there who do not identify themselves with united Britain, you can't change it with "period".

[mommysboy]

Scotland already has its own clear identity and most Scots want to be independent but remain within UK. If Scots had been given the option of devo max the vote would have been as much as 66%.

As it is despite a very leading question and all factors favouring the yes camp it still could not muster more than 45%.

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[Chicog]

Identity cannot be legislated, the loss in the referendum must have affected everyone to some degree but the article talks about 40% of voters crossing into independence camp in a space of only fifteen years.

A couple more screwups by London and the issue will come up again, and who knows how it would turn out next time around.

The fact is that there are 1.6 million people there who do not identify themselves with united Britain, you can't change it with "period".

Maybe they should consider returning to Ireland.

[BATHIK]

Maybe they should consider returning to Ireland.

Or maybe they should consider that not every their wish needs to be granted.

Now it's the time for the English to re-examine their attitudes. If Britain stays united it is for the reasons different from fifty years ago and London should reflect that in its policies.

[Chicog]

Federalism is the way to go.

[JockPieandBeans]

Maybe they should consider returning to Ireland.

Or maybe they should consider that not every their wish needs to be granted.

Now it's the time for the English to re-examine their attitudes. If Britain stays united it is for the reasons different from fifty years ago and London should reflect that in its policies.

Instead of pointing fingers at the people of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Have a look at the real reasons for the state of the UK.

The Political system. Until that is addressed, and radically changed, nothing will change in the UK.

[coma]

Maybe a few pro independence Jocks will be looking for some advice from ex IRA Paddys in how to conduct seperatist operations.

By the savageness of the fisty cuffs after the result it sure wouldn't surprise.

[mommysboy]

The real problem is poor representation within UK parliament. Not being English or Tory nearly every decision effectively means no real franchise for Scotland. SNP are truly clueless and do not offer an alternative IMHO.

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[gamini]

As an englishman i wanted Scotland to vote yes since I'm fed up with their winging and moaning about being governed by english when in fact its english governed by them if Labour win next election. Since UK is going to give Scotland even more powers time for England to have its own government and parliament. I note Labour party say they rule out a federal UK and reason is obvious since they would never IMO get elected in England.

To ensure no part is much much bigger or stronger than rest we should go rob a federal system with england also being split into 4-6 federal states. Of COurse London and South east will dominate since thats where money is but i dont see why the north east north west West and say midlands could not have their own devolved parliaments with same powers we are giving to Scotland.

TO do otherwise would be totally unfair to English and many IMO will vote UKIP if english dont get a proper share. But of course thats also what Labour party want to split main.ly right wing vote

I left UK in 70's because of awful socialist governments then. Dead left unburied, rubbish not collected and rotting in streets. sick man of europe and UK having to go cap in hand to IMF Tax rates at 98% and exchange controls so you could not even have freedom to take your money out. People have a very short memory.

I was sad that Scotland did not vote yes. We could then be assured of no more dreadful labour governments many of which nearly turned the UK into a banaa repupulic.

[mcmillr7]

i think its about a country being ruled by a government that nobody voted for,as there is only one tory MP in scotland?

[emilymat]

I'm probably going to get hauled over the coals for my remarks, but here goes.......

The more the campaigning went on, to me it became less about politics and at times more like a football match. Just 'them' and 'us'. It certainly gave many of the younger generation something fairly simple to latch on to, although of course the 'yes' votes spanned all generations. Either you risk the rosy future outlined by many of the 'yes' campaign or you decided on the dull 'status quo' of the 'no's' . (before anyone responds, I am positively stating that I don't regard the younger generation to be simplistic, not at all.) It's just the 'jam tomorrow' can be portrayed as an exciting. I see the 'yes' campaing was bankrolled to a large extent by multi millionaire lottery winners. Well, it's not such a risk when you are in that position.

I greatly applaud the Scots involvement, and particularly the incredible turn-out, but I fear that such turn-outs will not be replicated at the general election, when manifesto's and policies will need to be considered in more detail. Hence, I think the statements about the future massive involvement in politics by the electorate is yet to be proven and sustained. I hope it's true.

I remember working in Wick and being told by some local's that Inverness and Glasgow were those two big cities way down south that didn't quite understand the needs of people. So, London could have been on Mars.

Maybe, just maybe, positive electoral reform could come out of this. Many Scots say they vote/SNP or Labour and get a Tory government. That's true, but equally it could apply to the Welsh mining areas with Labour landslides.

I'm pretty convinced that the UK has to move to some system of electoral reform which includes some PR. At present, whilst the Scots complain about not being represented in the UK parliament it is a fact that large proportions of the UK electorate is disenfranchised - i.e. you vote Tory in a Labour stronghold or Labour in a Tory stronghold.

I know the arguments against this, you will always get coalition governments. That's why the main parties don't want it, whereas the Liberals and UKIP etc do.

Someone said that a 55/45% is marginal. Well, at present, only about 10% of the electorate (the swing voters) decide our governments. You will remember the 'swing ometer" on TV.

I hope the politicians honour the promises of more devolution to the Scots. I hope the people bury any differences in that country. Maybe, just maybe, this referendum will be the spark to much wider reforms in the UK as a whole. Lets hope so.

I wonder, if, and it's a big if, the In/Out referendum for the EU promised by the Conservatives as a 'vote winner' will generate the same enthusiasm. If we get it, let's have the 16/17 year olds included in that one.

[Pattaya Lous]

Scotland is part of the UK. Case closed.

Yes Scotland is but 45% of the Scottish people do not want to be part of the UK - " Fact "

Which I believe will cause further issues

[cacruden]

I think it ironic that many of those that argue against Scotland's independence will turn around and argue the opposite visa vie the England/UK and the European Union. A lot of argument for staying in the UK was negative - you will burn in hell; your economy will blow up; we could never have a currency union because it would not work.... The truth generally is that with separation there would be some dislocation / adjustments -- but generally the adjustment is made over-time and a separate Scotland would not have been as dire as those that would argue it so. Yes, there are a lot of unknowns but then there are always unknowns when changing course. England now argues that they are half in half out, so Scotland being half in half out of the UK should be no difference based on common logic. If the UK was full in and not half out of the EU then of course the UK is an unnecessary level of government (3 levels where 2 would be better).

Negative campaigns like that do not build a common purpose or destiny. It only serves to delay the changes from taking place. Maybe the No campaign had nothing better to offer fear, maybe there is too little in common after all. It is basically what campaigns like that are telling people. (and no I am not Scottish).

[cacruden]

Scotland is part of the UK. Case closed.

Yes Scotland is but 45% of the Scottish people do not want to be part of the UK - " Fact "

Which I believe will cause further issues

And 25% that voted no -- voted no because they said they believed that the promises of "devo max" gave them most of what they wanted without the fear of the unknown (according to poll data).

[Bernard Flint]

SIRS

This whole lot is hilarious, reminds me of the film,, LIFE OF BRIAN.

What have the auld enemy done for us

[Bernard Flint]

Scotland is part of the UK. Case closed.

Yes Scotland is but 45% of the Scottish people do not want to be part of the UK - " Fact "

Which I believe will cause further issues

Well tough titty hahahahahaha

[Bernard Flint]

Maybe a few pro independence Jocks will be looking for some advice from ex IRA Paddys in how to conduct seperatist operations.

By the savageness of the fisty cuffs after the result it sure wouldn't surprise.

Not as silly as first thought. The pro IRA are still alive and kicking in Glasgow

[RickyJB]

it´s not finished yet, we will get our independence

[JockPieandBeans]

it´s not finished yet, we will get our independence

Please explain, in your own words. How you can possibly be Independent and a fully integrated member of the EU ?

[MILT]

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Identity cannot be legislated, the loss in the referendum must have affected everyone to some degree but the article talks about 40% of voters crossing into independence camp in a space of only fifteen years.

A couple more screwups by London and the issue will come up again, and who knows how it would turn out next time around.

The fact is that there are 1.6 million people there who do not identify themselves with united Britain, you can't change it with "period".

Maybe they should consider returning to Ireland.

Maybe they should be vikings again.

[cacruden]

it´s not finished yet, we will get our independence

Please explain, in your own words. How you can possibly be Independent and a fully integrated member of the EU ?

Think France, Germany or any other EU nation sans UK. They are considered independent yet fully integrated.

There would be no necessity of a UK based government if England, Scotland were fully integrated members of the EU....

Countries often celebrate independence as a point/day in time that a country becomes independent -- but reality is that most of the commonwealth countries became independent over a period of decades. Officially Canada was a country in 1867, but in reality it was not fully achieved until shortly before World War II.

The UK should move towards a Canadian style confederate (2 constitutionally equal levels of government responsible for different things. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should have their own elected legislatures responsible for all everything except things like Defence, trade, currency. While most of the day to day "social items" (health care, education, transportation, agriculture) should reside within the domain of the local governments.

[Benmart]

Scotland is part of the UK. Case closed.

I would imagine, in times past, the same was said about India, Ireland, Ceylon, Canada, The United States, Kenya and so on.

No case is closed when the minds of a free people are open to change.

[Benmart]

Scotland is part of the UK. Case closed.

Yes Scotland is but 45% of the Scottish people do not want to be part of the UK - " Fact "

Which I believe will cause further issues

Well tough titty hahahahahaha

I've found that adolescent outbursts on my part have come back full circle to prove my character defects.

[bkk_mike]

Scotland already has its own clear identity and most Scots want to be independent but remain within UK. If Scots had been given the option of devo max the vote would have been as much as 66%.

As it is despite a very leading question and all factors favouring the yes camp it still could not muster more than 45%.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 1 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

What you have is 45% that wanted to leave the UK even with the promises in the last two weeks of the referendum campaign, and this included a majority (just) of the under 65s.

The No win is the result of pensioners overwhelmingly voting No at something like a 3:1 ratio. Remember that 55% that voted No includes a lot who really just wanted more devolution, and who will be really angry if it doesn't arrive on the promised schedule, or something close to it.

Demographics are on the yes side for next time.

Also remember this is on the BBC. It's hardly been the arbiter of impartiality that it's supposed to be.

After all, this seems to be a more representative picture of No celebrating their win.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/gs7.jpg

http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/gs4.jpg

Admittedly, that could just be Rangers supporters using the opportunity to celebrate something. There haven't been a lot of old firm games recently.

[JockPieandBeans]

it´s not finished yet, we will get our independence

Please explain, in your own words. How you can possibly be Independent and a fully integrated member of the EU ?

Think France, Germany or any other EU nation sans UK. They are considered independent yet fully integrated.

There would be no necessity of a UK based government if England, Scotland were fully integrated members of the EU....

Countries often celebrate independence as a point/day in time that a country becomes independent -- but reality is that most of the commonwealth countries became independent over a period of decades. Officially Canada was a country in 1867, but in reality it was not fully achieved until shortly before World War II.

The UK should move towards a Canadian style confederate (2 constitutionally equal levels of government responsible for different things. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should have their own elected legislatures responsible for all everything except things like Defence, trade, currency. While most of the day to day "social items" (health care, education, transportation, agriculture) should reside within the domain of the local governments.

1. Germany controls the " EU "

2. Then why the necessity to have Scottish / Welsh / NI Assemblies or Parliaments ?

3. I agree that UK politics needs ripped apart and rebuilt.

I think there is enough column inches in regards to the " EU " stiffing the UK Government. I will just give 1 example. Abu Hamza. How many years and millions of pounds did it cost to get rid of that piece of dirt ? All because of the EU.

[RickyJB]

it´s not finished yet, we will get our independence

Please explain, in your own words. How you can possibly be Independent and a fully integrated member of the EU ?

eh?? when did i mention wanting to be part of EU ?? im against joining the EU...whats the point of leaving britain to be INDEPENDENT then being dependent of the rest of europe..

[cacruden]

it´s not finished yet, we will get our independence

Please explain, in your own words. How you can possibly be Independent and a fully integrated member of the EU ?

eh?? when did i mention wanting to be part of EU ?? im against joining the EU...whats the point of leaving britain to be INDEPENDENT then being dependent of the rest of europe..

If you become "independant" you negotiate your relations on your terms, if you aren't independant you have to wait for scraps from the masters table. No country is completely independent - it is an illusion.