Lessons on democracy to be taught shortly

[tbthailand]

Why do you suggest I oppose democracy ? It would seem you do, as you seem to dislike me posting

If you believe that "the coup was necessary", then that means you support it. Military coups are incompatible with democracy, so therefore you oppose democracy.

Logic is not your strongest point I guess.

I think the coup was an unfortunate necessity due to lack of a proper function democracy and due to lack of respect for a democracy as shown by political parties and protest groups.

Really? I'm flabbergasted. You just repeat what you read in The Nation. You haven't done your homework.

You have no idea of why there was a coup.

Actually this is a very interesting time in Thai history. You should read the stuff that is banned to get a balanced view.

Just another example of somebody that reads The Nation and believes that crap they print.

reads The Nation and believes that crap they print.

Unfortunately for us and our families, this is a very 'interesting' time in Thai history. We'll watch history be made.

I find it impossible to believe that posters do not understand the background and reason for the coup, but many post as if they don't. Amazing Falang.

[tbthailand]

Then there is the Stanford university's study which finds that:

Despite the seemingly strong empirical support in

previous studies for theories of majoritarian democracy,

our analyses suggest that majorities of the American

public actually have little influence over the policies our

government adopts. Americans do enjoy many features

central to democratic governance, such as regular elections,

freedom of speech and association, and a widespread

(if still contested) franchise. But we believe that if

policymaking is dominated by powerful business organizations

and a small number of affluent Americans, then

America’s claims to being a democratic society are seriously

threatened.

..... which is much closer to the Thai model anyway, isn't it?

you have an excellent point and Americans understand this - there are Americans who are shocked at recent supreme court decisions which give carte blanche to the Koch brothers and other multi billionaires to buy their candidates and to buy legislation. Many Americans like myself feel that we must eliminate the big money from politics in order to have a government which is responsive to the citizens other than the 1%.

That said, Thailand is light-years away from the USA or any of the world's leading democracies.

[rubl]

Logic is not your strongest point I guess.

I think the coup was an unfortunate necessity due to lack of a proper function democracy and due to lack of respect for a democracy as shown by political parties and protest groups.

Really? I'm flabbergasted. You just repeat what you read in The Nation. You haven't done your homework.

You have no idea of why there was a coup.

Actually this is a very interesting time in Thai history. You should read the stuff that is banned to get a balanced view.

Just another example of somebody that reads The Nation and believes that crap they print.

reads The Nation and believes that crap they print.

Unfortunately for us and our families, this is a very 'interesting' time in Thai history. We'll watch history be made.

I find it impossible to believe that posters do not understand the background and reason for the coup, but many post as if they don't. Amazing Falang.

You believe easily, don't you? Especially if you want to believe.

Following you condemn based on what you chose to believe.

Remember a coin has two sides and some even some fine print on the rim.

BTW your 'unfortunately' suggest that at least part of your family is Thai (with you being American). That should make you even more interested in objectivity as the various sides only show bias, alledgedly.

[tbthailand]

Interesting link. Thanks.

"Press Freedom Index-

"2004 Thailand ranked 59th out of 167 countries during the Thaksin Government."

"2010 Thailand's ranking fell to 153rd out of 178 during the Abasit Government."

So the index dropped almost 100 points durning Abasits term. WHOA!

And It's got to be much worse now.

No wonder you have no idea of what's really going on here.

If those numbers are true the Thai newspapers are complete BS.

Your post is somewhat suggestive.

Anyway, the manipulation of data is another lesson in democracy.

BTW the latest information "Thailand 2014", but reflecting data collected over 2013.

http://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2014/thailand-0#.VDFLxTbGmCg

Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Are you suggesting that the Press Freedom Index has been manipulated?

The last ranking prior to the coup was 130. What will happen to the ranking with a military 'intervention' and martial law is anyone's guess. Maybe it will be manipulated?

[heybruce]

Why do you suggest I oppose democracy ? It would seem you do, as you seem to dislike me posting

If you believe that "the coup was necessary", then that means you support it. Military coups are incompatible with democracy, so therefore you oppose democracy.

Logic is not your strongest point I guess.

I think the coup was an unfortunate necessity due to lack of a proper function democracy and due to lack of respect for a democracy as shown by political parties and protest groups.

New democracies often take a generation or two, without interruption from coups, to sort themselves out. Coups provide the appearance of a quick fix but never result in better government.

You should have no problem proving this wrong, just give an example of a past coup (not the current work in progress with unknown final results) that lead to a better government.

[heybruce]

What is most notable about your post rubl, is that you in no way address what tbthailand wrote. You just offer sarcasm and once again go on about Thaksin the criminal fugitive (charged by the last military junta and convicted under the government installed by that junta). How many generals would be criminal fugitives if they didn't allow themselves to rewrite constitutions and grant themselves immunity?

I think tbthailand's 'Democracy lesson 1' is the finest post on this entire thread. Although I don't think it is completely true, if I remember correctly Costa Rica is a democracy without a military. Maybe Thailand should try that, democracy Costa Rica style.

I tend to ignore questions which are off topic, loaded, or simply meant to distract or divert. Also I vaguely remember that I am under no 'democratic' obligation to answer questions like that.

As such tbthailand's lesson in democracy is a good example of how democratic principles can be used and abused by those who don't care about democracy but only about their program of obfuscation and distraction.

"I tend to ignore questions which are off topic, loaded, or simply meant to distract or divert."

And then you post stuff that is off-topic, loaded, and simply meant to distract or divert, like your above post.

So, anything you disagree with without being able to say more than 'incorrect' or 'distract/diverting', shouldn't be posted?

Thanks for the lesson in democracy

tbthailand's post:

"good point

I will stand in awe of your brilliance if you can prove there are NRC members advocating serious reform of the military.

Democracy lesson 1, kiddies,

Every democracy in the world has a professional military under control of a civilian government. There are no exceptions to rule number one."

Your reply:

"I will stand in awe when you show concern for common Thai people, rather than obfuscating and showing concern for a faulty democracy which seemingly allowed a criminal fugitive to control 'his' country from afar through a clone PM and a cabinet / group of 'his' party MPS who regularly came for praise and new orders.

Democracy 'brucy' style anyone? Maybe 'tbthailand style' ? Last offer, all thrown together, real cheap, anyone ?"

It looks to me like you're the one off-topic and obfuscating. But as I wrote before, just because you have nothing to post doesn't keep you from posting.

[heybruce]

"Anyway, you seem like an ivory tower airchair 'democracy' warrior who doesn't know any common or poor Thai. Only concerned with 'amart', faulty 'democracy' and zigzagging along. From afar, safely away from that dangerous place called Thailand."

Wrong, but funny. Having nothing to post doesn't keep you from posting.

Democracy does seem to have its drawbacks, now doesn't it

Is that why you oppose it?

Why do you suggest I oppose democracy ? It would seem you do, as you seem to dislike me posting

That's not democracy, that's freedom of speech. While I consider both important and complementary, they are not the same thing. It's funny that someone who is quick to lecture others on democracy doesn't know that.

Going back to your earlier post, why don't you show us the post where I used 'amart'. It might take you a while to find it, but I have faith in you--you never would have accused me of concern with 'amart' if it wasn't out there somewhere. Have fun looking.

[tbthailand]

Logic is not your strongest point I guess.

I think the coup was an unfortunate necessity due to lack of a proper function democracy and due to lack of respect for a democracy as shown by political parties and protest groups.

Really? I'm flabbergasted. You just repeat what you read in The Nation. You haven't done your homework.

You have no idea of why there was a coup.

Actually this is a very interesting time in Thai history. You should read the stuff that is banned to get a balanced view.

Just another example of somebody that reads The Nation and believes that crap they print.

reads The Nation and believes that crap they print.

Unfortunately for us and our families, this is a very 'interesting' time in Thai history. We'll watch history be made.

I find it impossible to believe that posters do not understand the background and reason for the coup, but many post as if they don't. Amazing Falang.

You believe easily, don't you? Especially if you want to believe.

Following you condemn based on what you chose to believe.

Remember a coin has two sides and some even some fine print on the rim.

BTW your 'unfortunately' suggest that at least part of your family is Thai (with you being American). That should make you even more interested in objectivity as the various sides only show bias, alledgedly.

in case you didn't notice, you are trolling again.

[kriswillems]

I suggest they buy a dictionary:

de·moc·ra·cy noun \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\

: a form of government in which people choose leaders by voting

If they teach this bullshit to my son, I will tear up the lesson.

Edited October 5, 2014 by kriswillems

[rubl]

Interesting link. Thanks.

"Press Freedom Index-

"2004 Thailand ranked 59th out of 167 countries during the Thaksin Government."

"2010 Thailand's ranking fell to 153rd out of 178 during the Abasit Government."

So the index dropped almost 100 points durning Abasits term. WHOA!

And It's got to be much worse now.

No wonder you have no idea of what's really going on here.

If those numbers are true the Thai newspapers are complete BS.

Your post is somewhat suggestive.

Anyway, the manipulation of data is another lesson in democracy.

BTW the latest information "Thailand 2014", but reflecting data collected over 2013.

http://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2014/thailand-0#.VDFLxTbGmCg

Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Are you suggesting that the Press Freedom Index has been manipulated?

The last ranking prior to the coup was 130. What will happen to the ranking with a military 'intervention' and martial law is anyone's guess. Maybe it will be manipulated?

My dear TB, you start to annoy me. You don't want to understand what I write, you ask a loaded question, you assume the answer and more or less accuse me for the answer you assume.

KJJ posted two lines on statistics, expressly selected, no link, no explanation, only some nonsense. That's suggestive. I provided a link to the latest report from the site were you can also find the other years.

Now if you had followed the link to see what was written, you would have found a.o.

" In November, the lower house of parliament passed a PTP-backed bill that would have provided blanket amnesty to military personnel, politicians, protesters, and even thugs who played active roles during Thailand’s political crises of 2004–2010. The bill was widely seen as an attempt to allow Yingluck’s brother, former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, to return to Thailand; he had gone into self-imposed exile after being deposed in a 2006 military coup, and faced a two-year jail term for corruption if he were to return. Still, many red shirts joined a public outcry against the proposed amnesty, as it applied amnesty to their opponents as well."

[rubl]

Why do you suggest I oppose democracy ? It would seem you do, as you seem to dislike me posting

If you believe that "the coup was necessary", then that means you support it. Military coups are incompatible with democracy, so therefore you oppose democracy.

Logic is not your strongest point I guess.

I think the coup was an unfortunate necessity due to lack of a proper function democracy and due to lack of respect for a democracy as shown by political parties and protest groups.

New democracies often take a generation or two, without interruption from coups, to sort themselves out. Coups provide the appearance of a quick fix but never result in better government.

You should have no problem proving this wrong, just give an example of a past coup (not the current work in progress with unknown final results) that lead to a better government.

New democracies?

BTW your faith in me is touching. Note though I may have to disappoint you as no coup I know of was thorough enough. Every time those pesky politicians came back to screw things up again. I'm slowly starting to understand that a democracy doesn't need politicians.

But thanks, another Brucy lesson in Democracy. Suggest frequently that history teaches you something while ignoring its lessons.

Edited October 5, 2014 by rubl

[rubl]

reads The Nation and believes that crap they print.

Unfortunately for us and our families, this is a very 'interesting' time in Thai history. We'll watch history be made.

I find it impossible to believe that posters do not understand the background and reason for the coup, but many post as if they don't. Amazing Falang.

You believe easily, don't you? Especially if you want to believe.

Following you condemn based on what you chose to believe.

Remember a coin has two sides and some even some fine print on the rim.

BTW your 'unfortunately' suggest that at least part of your family is Thai (with you being American). That should make you even more interested in objectivity as the various sides only show bias, alledgedly.

in case you didn't notice, you are trolling again.

Trolling? You're the one rolling over the floor, You're the one telling us to be surprised with what others think without giving any objective reasoning why their thinking should amaze or be incorrect.

So, yet another lesson in democracy, this time thanks to tbthailand. Laugh a lot at what others write, suggest its funny, misguided, unbelievable. Suggest that you know better and others should know that too.

[rubl]

Why do you suggest I oppose democracy ? It would seem you do, as you seem to dislike me posting

That's not democracy, that's freedom of speech. While I consider both important and complementary, they are not the same thing. It's funny that someone who is quick to lecture others on democracy doesn't know that.

Going back to your earlier post, why don't you show us the post where I used 'amart'. It might take you a while to find it, but I have faith in you--you never would have accused me of concern with 'amart' if it wasn't out there somewhere. Have fun looking.

I have to check, but either you, tbthailand, or one of the other 'democracy lovers' have tried to explain to me that 'freedom of speech' and 'freedom of the press' are part of the foundation, corner stones of democracy as we accept or know it today.

As for 'amart' you didn't use that word, but its the same as 'unelected elite' I'm told.

[tbthailand]

Interesting link. Thanks.

"Press Freedom Index-

"2004 Thailand ranked 59th out of 167 countries during the Thaksin Government."

"2010 Thailand's ranking fell to 153rd out of 178 during the Abasit Government."

So the index dropped almost 100 points durning Abasits term. WHOA!

And It's got to be much worse now.

No wonder you have no idea of what's really going on here.

If those numbers are true the Thai newspapers are complete BS.

Your post is somewhat suggestive.

Anyway, the manipulation of data is another lesson in democracy.

BTW the latest information "Thailand 2014", but reflecting data collected over 2013.

http://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2014/thailand-0#.VDFLxTbGmCg

Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Are you suggesting that the Press Freedom Index has been manipulated?

The last ranking prior to the coup was 130. What will happen to the ranking with a military 'intervention' and martial law is anyone's guess. Maybe it will be manipulated?

My dear TB, you start to annoy me. You don't want to understand what I write, you ask a loaded question, you assume the answer and more or less accuse me for the answer you assume.

KJJ posted two lines on statistics, expressly selected, no link, no explanation, only some nonsense. That's suggestive. I provided a link to the latest report from the site were you can also find the other years.

Now if you had followed the link to see what was written, you would have found a.o.

" In November, the lower house of parliament passed a PTP-backed bill that would have provided blanket amnesty to military personnel, politicians, protesters, and even thugs who played active roles during Thailand’s political crises of 2004–2010. The bill was widely seen as an attempt to allow Yingluck’s brother, former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, to return to Thailand; he had gone into self-imposed exile after being deposed in a 2006 military coup, and faced a two-year jail term for corruption if he were to return. Still, many red shirts joined a public outcry against the proposed amnesty, as it applied amnesty to their opponents as well."

Actually, I asked those questions because I did not want to assume something that you did not write. While I thought you were disagreeing, it was possible to read it two ways.

I read the freedom house and certainly did not miss the reference that you just posted, but of course there was nothing in your post that indicated that particular passage as your point of reference in a couple thousand words of information.

As for the KJJ post, the information is easily googled from what he posted, so that should not be a problem. As for his meaning, it was clear that he was referring to your statement that you don't read what is banned in Thailand and his post pointed out that freedom of the press has been getting worse and therefore you may not have information that is otherwise available. That seems like a reasonable post and btw, I would recommend that you search out a bit more information that is banned in Thailand and there are simple ways to do that.

So I guess from your posts now, that you disagree with KJJ and that leaves my other question based on your statement which is do you think that the Press Freedom index is manipulated? Your post would suggest that you do think that, but I am taking the opportunity to ask.

[tbthailand]

reads The Nation and believes that crap they print.

Unfortunately for us and our families, this is a very 'interesting' time in Thai history. We'll watch history be made.

I find it impossible to believe that posters do not understand the background and reason for the coup, but many post as if they don't. Amazing Falang.

You believe easily, don't you? Especially if you want to believe.

Following you condemn based on what you chose to believe.

Remember a coin has two sides and some even some fine print on the rim.

BTW your 'unfortunately' suggest that at least part of your family is Thai (with you being American). That should make you even more interested in objectivity as the various sides only show bias, alledgedly.

in case you didn't notice, you are trolling again.

Trolling? You're the one rolling over the floor, You're the one telling us to be surprised with what others think without giving any objective reasoning why their thinking should amaze or be incorrect.

So, yet another lesson in democracy, this time thanks to tbthailand. Laugh a lot at what others write, suggest its funny, misguided, unbelievable. Suggest that you know better and others should know that too.

I was replying directly to another's post. That is hardly trolling.

[heybruce]

Why do you suggest I oppose democracy ? It would seem you do, as you seem to dislike me posting

That's not democracy, that's freedom of speech. While I consider both important and complementary, they are not the same thing. It's funny that someone who is quick to lecture others on democracy doesn't know that.

Going back to your earlier post, why don't you show us the post where I used 'amart'. It might take you a while to find it, but I have faith in you--you never would have accused me of concern with 'amart' if it wasn't out there somewhere. Have fun looking.

I have to check, but either you, tbthailand, or one of the other 'democracy lovers' have tried to explain to me that 'freedom of speech' and 'freedom of the press' are part of the foundation, corner stones of democracy as we accept or know it today.

As for 'amart' you didn't use that word, but its the same as 'unelected elite' I'm told.

Yes, and wheels are part of the 'foundation' of cars, but most people know the difference between a wheel and a car.

[heybruce]

If you believe that "the coup was necessary", then that means you support it. Military coups are incompatible with democracy, so therefore you oppose democracy.

Logic is not your strongest point I guess.

I think the coup was an unfortunate necessity due to lack of a proper function democracy and due to lack of respect for a democracy as shown by political parties and protest groups.

New democracies often take a generation or two, without interruption from coups, to sort themselves out. Coups provide the appearance of a quick fix but never result in better government.

You should have no problem proving this wrong, just give an example of a past coup (not the current work in progress with unknown final results) that lead to a better government.

New democracies?

BTW your faith in me is touching. Note though I may have to disappoint you as no coup I know of was thorough enough. Every time those pesky politicians came back to screw things up again. I'm slowly starting to understand that a democracy doesn't need politicians.

But thanks, another Brucy lesson in Democracy. Suggest frequently that history teaches you something while ignoring its lessons.

Yes, new democracies. That's what you have after the military topples the government and writes a new constitution before allowing elections.

I didn't limit you to coups in Thailand, name a coup anywhere in the world that led to a better government.

"no coup I know of was thorough enough"

Oh, you want extreme military government. For some reason I don't find this encouraging. Perhaps its the military's lack of interest or qualification in bringing about democracy.

"Every time those pesky politicians came back to screw things up again."

No, the juntas of the past were never afraid of politicians, they were afraid of the people and their enlisted troops drafted from the people. After the corruption and incompetence of past juntas became intolerable, and the junta leaders had secured enough wealth, the junta would step aside for a limited form of democracy.

As far as somebody ignoring the lessons of history, you should check a mirror.

[rubl]

Actually, I asked those questions because I did not want to assume something that you did not write. While I thought you were disagreeing, it was possible to read it two ways.

I read the freedom house and certainly did not miss the reference that you just posted, but of course there was nothing in your post that indicated that particular passage as your point of reference in a couple thousand words of information.

As for the KJJ post, the information is easily googled from what he posted, so that should not be a problem. As for his meaning, it was clear that he was referring to your statement that you don't read what is banned in Thailand and his post pointed out that freedom of the press has been getting worse and therefore you may not have information that is otherwise available. That seems like a reasonable post and btw, I would recommend that you search out a bit more information that is banned in Thailand and there are simple ways to do that.

So I guess from your posts now, that you disagree with KJJ and that leaves my other question based on your statement which is do you think that the Press Freedom index is manipulated? Your post would suggest that you do think that, but I am taking the opportunity to ask.

At times I wonder if you would have less problems understanding my posts if I wrote in Dutch.

Anyway I wrote that KJJ was very suggestive in his short selection of

""Press Freedom Index-

"2004 Thailand ranked 59th out of 167 countries during the Thaksin Government."

"2010 Thailand's ranking fell to 153rd out of 178 during the Abasit Government." "

Following I provided a link to the latest information, a link which also allows you to find other years on that side.

Now how does this fit in the topic of "lessons on democracy"? Simple.

Pick titbits out of the jar and use them to prove your point. Ignore the bits you don't like or which don't fit your philosophy or program. Don't let people glance at the other side of the coin as your side is better and more shiny.

BTW the part of the "Thailand 2014" article I quoted is also very interesting, Thailand democracy wise. It says that many red-shirts 'joined' the 'public outcry' against the blanket amnesty bill only because they didn't want 'the others' to be included. Now that's very democratic of course. No problem with "blanket amnesty to military personnel, politicians, protesters, and even thugs who played active roles during Thailand’s political crises of 2004–2010." Now that explains why the Pheu Thai MPs and UDD leaders had no problem diverting the red-shirts anger to the anti-government protests which threatened 'their' government.

[rubl]

New democracies?

BTW your faith in me is touching. Note though I may have to disappoint you as no coup I know of was thorough enough. Every time those pesky politicians came back to screw things up again. I'm slowly starting to understand that a democracy doesn't need politicians.

But thanks, another Brucy lesson in Democracy. Suggest frequently that history teaches you something while ignoring its lessons.

Yes, new democracies. That's what you have after the military topples the government and writes a new constitution before allowing elections.

I didn't limit you to coups in Thailand, name a coup anywhere in the world that led to a better government.

"no coup I know of was thorough enough"

Oh, you want extreme military government. For some reason I don't find this encouraging. Perhaps its the military's lack of interest or qualification in bringing about democracy.

"Every time those pesky politicians came back to screw things up again."

No, the juntas of the past were never afraid of politicians, they were afraid of the people and their enlisted troops drafted from the people. After the corruption and incompetence of past juntas became intolerable, and the junta leaders had secured enough wealth, the junta would step aside for a limited form of democracy.

As far as somebody ignoring the lessons of history, you should check a mirror.

History teaches us that anything is possible. If that was not the case we wouldn't have progress, now would we ?

[khunjamesjohnson]

New democracies?

BTW your faith in me is touching. Note though I may have to disappoint you as no coup I know of was thorough enough. Every time those pesky politicians came back to screw things up again. I'm slowly starting to understand that a democracy doesn't need politicians.

But thanks, another Brucy lesson in Democracy. Suggest frequently that history teaches you something while ignoring its lessons.

Yes, new democracies. That's what you have after the military topples the government and writes a new constitution before allowing elections.

I didn't limit you to coups in Thailand, name a coup anywhere in the world that led to a better government.

"no coup I know of was thorough enough"

Oh, you want extreme military government. For some reason I don't find this encouraging. Perhaps its the military's lack of interest or qualification in bringing about democracy.

"Every time those pesky politicians came back to screw things up again."

No, the juntas of the past were never afraid of politicians, they were afraid of the people and their enlisted troops drafted from the people. After the corruption and incompetence of past juntas became intolerable, and the junta leaders had secured enough wealth, the junta would step aside for a limited form of democracy.

As far as somebody ignoring the lessons of history, you should check a mirror.

History teaches us that anything is possible. If that was not the case we wouldn't have progress, now would we ?

You do know there are 2 versions of Thai history.

One version you are not allowed to read (in Thailand) and one version the Junta wants you to read.

Are they blocking it because its false or are they blocking it because it's true?

Now be a good little north korean and support the junta.

[rubl]

History teaches us that anything is possible. If that was not the case we wouldn't have progress, now would we ?

You do know there are 2 versions of Thai history.

One version you are not allowed to read (in Thailand) and one version the Junta wants you to read.

Are they blocking it because its false or are they blocking it because it's true?

Now be a good little north korean and support the junta.

Rumour has it that even the version you suggest we've not allowed to read has Thai special aspects. Plus the ugly other side of the coin, of course.

Anyway, you seem to have missed some news items. With the Thai government supporting Western World actions in boycott of North Korea, any 'good little North Korean' supporting this junta might find himself in need of 'voluntary' and immediate re-education. Allegedly of course.

[khunjamesjohnson]

We disagree.

I would never support a military junta that would throw me in jail for reading.

Now be a good little North Korean, play dumb and recite the dear Generals poem.

[heybruce]

New democracies?

BTW your faith in me is touching. Note though I may have to disappoint you as no coup I know of was thorough enough. Every time those pesky politicians came back to screw things up again. I'm slowly starting to understand that a democracy doesn't need politicians.

But thanks, another Brucy lesson in Democracy. Suggest frequently that history teaches you something while ignoring its lessons.

Yes, new democracies. That's what you have after the military topples the government and writes a new constitution before allowing elections.

I didn't limit you to coups in Thailand, name a coup anywhere in the world that led to a better government.

"no coup I know of was thorough enough"

Oh, you want extreme military government. For some reason I don't find this encouraging. Perhaps its the military's lack of interest or qualification in bringing about democracy.

"Every time those pesky politicians came back to screw things up again."

No, the juntas of the past were never afraid of politicians, they were afraid of the people and their enlisted troops drafted from the people. After the corruption and incompetence of past juntas became intolerable, and the junta leaders had secured enough wealth, the junta would step aside for a limited form of democracy.

As far as somebody ignoring the lessons of history, you should check a mirror.

History teaches us that anything is possible. If that was not the case we wouldn't have progress, now would we ?

So if Thailand keeps having coups eventually one will work out well?

Albert Einstein is credited with saying: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”.

[willyumiii]

Why do people insist on call it a democracy when in reality it is a republic?

A democracy only functions on a very small scale.

The government of the U.S.A. is a republic, but 98% of Americans wil tell you it is a democracy.

98% can not tell you what a republic is.

Can you?

[tbthailand]

Actually, I asked those questions because I did not want to assume something that you did not write. While I thought you were disagreeing, it was possible to read it two ways.

I read the freedom house and certainly did not miss the reference that you just posted, but of course there was nothing in your post that indicated that particular passage as your point of reference in a couple thousand words of information.

As for the KJJ post, the information is easily googled from what he posted, so that should not be a problem. As for his meaning, it was clear that he was referring to your statement that you don't read what is banned in Thailand and his post pointed out that freedom of the press has been getting worse and therefore you may not have information that is otherwise available. That seems like a reasonable post and btw, I would recommend that you search out a bit more information that is banned in Thailand and there are simple ways to do that.

So I guess from your posts now, that you disagree with KJJ and that leaves my other question based on your statement which is do you think that the Press Freedom index is manipulated? Your post would suggest that you do think that, but I am taking the opportunity to ask.

At times I wonder if you would have less problems understanding my posts if I wrote in Dutch.

Anyway I wrote that KJJ was very suggestive in his short selection of

""Press Freedom Index-

"2004 Thailand ranked 59th out of 167 countries during the Thaksin Government."

"2010 Thailand's ranking fell to 153rd out of 178 during the Abasit Government." "

Following I provided a link to the latest information, a link which also allows you to find other years on that side.

Now how does this fit in the topic of "lessons on democracy"? Simple.

Pick titbits out of the jar and use them to prove your point. Ignore the bits you don't like or which don't fit your philosophy or program. Don't let people glance at the other side of the coin as your side is better and more shiny.

BTW the part of the "Thailand 2014" article I quoted is also very interesting, Thailand democracy wise. It says that many red-shirts 'joined' the 'public outcry' against the blanket amnesty bill only because they didn't want 'the others' to be included. Now that's very democratic of course. No problem with "blanket amnesty to military personnel, politicians, protesters, and even thugs who played active roles during Thailand’s political crises of 2004–2010." Now that explains why the Pheu Thai MPs and UDD leaders had no problem diverting the red-shirts anger to the anti-government protests which threatened 'their' government.

so I take the time to ask you to state explicitly what you meant and you don't take the opportunity to reply.

I do honestly believe that I understand (most of) your posts. Some are unintelligible, however. Others like this one, just avoid direct question, don't continue to weave around using other new points (known as changing the subject, or in your words zig-zagging).

1) do you think the Press Freedom index is manipulated or not? I don't think so.

2) the Freedom House paper has a lot of information and rates Thailand as partially free. I did not pick any points from it, but let me go ahead and do that.

You began with this point

In November, the lower house of parliament passed a PTP-backed bill that would have provided blanket amnesty to military personnel, politicians, protesters, and even thugs who played active roles during Thailand’s political crises of 2004–2010. The bill was widely seen as an attempt to allow Yingluck’s brother, former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, to return to Thailand; he had gone into self-imposed exile after being deposed in a 2006 military coup, and faced a two-year jail term for corruption if he were to return. Still, many red shirts joined a public outcry against the proposed amnesty, as it applied amnesty to their opponents as well.

and somehow want to describe it as the other side of the coin and something that (somehow) refutes my position... In fact, I have stated myself that I do not and did not support the amnesty. On the other hand, it was (1) within the framework of the constitution for the PTP to propose it, and (2) they ran on this as part of their campaign and were elected in a landslide - whether partly due to this proposal or in spite of it. I think it was a poor policy, but it was fully within the framework of the constitution.

What was not within said framework was the counter proposal from the opposition to replace the government with an unelected reform council and re-write the constitution with the PDRC 'reforms'.

Along those lines, the Freedom House also states:

the Constitutional Court on November 20 struck down the constitutional amendment that would have made the Senate a wholly elected body on the grounds that the amendment undermined Thailand’s checks and balances; the amendment had been passed by both houses of parliament.

An elected Senate would have been a step in improving the democratic structure of the Thai government, don't you think? After all, the half-appointed Senate was created precisely to provide the unelected royalist elite more control over the government and therefore the 'little people who vote'. You can see that this did not sit well with the anti-democratic elites. They used their other tools of control, in this case the court, a creation of the last military junta, to stop what had been passed under the rules of the 2007 constitution. This echoes the resistance in the other attempts to amend the constitution in previous years. Again, done under the rules of the constitution.

The report goes on to detail briefly how that occurred. Then the report added this information on how the 2007 constitution further reduced the value of targeted segments of Thai society:

For the 500-seat lower chamber, the House of Representatives, the new constitution altered the system of proportional representation to curtail the voting power of the northern and northeastern provinces, where support for Thaksin remains strong.

They continue with a point which the military finally resolved to fix in 2014, whcih is:

elections were called for July 2011. The voting was considered relatively free and fair, yielding a strong victory for pro-Thaksin forces, this time reconstituted as the PTP. The party took 265 of 500 seats in the lower house, followed by the DP with 159; small parties divided the remainder. Although the influential military weighed in against the PTP prior to the vote, it was unable to decisively affect the outcome.

Freedom House points out that the Yingluck government made an effort to go along with the military - one could view this as recognition of the military's ability to oust the government and could be seen as an effort to appease the military leaders:

Yingluck had sought to work with the military ... , avoiding highly contentious issues and confrontational stances regarding antigovernment protests. In September, Yingluck authorized a military reshuffle that, despite the military’s stated goal of reducing top-level positions, increased the number of senior figures, including the addition of 215 new generals. Observers saw the move as another indicator of rapprochement between the military and the prime minister’s office.

They point out that corruption exists and knows no party affiliation.

Corruption is widespread at all levels of Thai society. Both the DP and PTP include numerous lawmakers who have faced persistent corruption allegations

Part of what makes Thailand 'partially free' comes from other laws such as

defamation charges are often used by politicians to silence opponents, critics, and activists.

Where they point out:

In August, a posting on Facebook citing rumors of a military coup resulted in police questioning of four individuals, including an editor of a public television channel. A senior police official announced to the media that anyone who “likes” the post on Facebook would face charges. In December, the Thai Navy filed criminal defamation and computer crime charges against two journalists, one Thai and one Australian, for an article they wrote alleging the trafficking of Muslim Rohingya asylum seekers by Thai Navy personnel. The case was pending at year’s end.

Which shows how dangerous simple, normal activities online can be in Thailand. This is clearly restrictions on people's freedom of expression. It is quite clear that restrictions on freedom of speech have been enforced by all political parties especially with regards to lese majeste:

The government in 2013 continued the practice of blocking websites for allegedly insulting the monarchy

And I was shocked to read how extensive the enforcement has been when they note:

Aggressive enforcement of Thailand’s lèse-majesté laws since the 2006 coup has created widespread anxiety and stifled freedom of expression not just online, but also in print and broadcast media and even at public events, such as film festivals. Due to the secrecy surrounding most lèse-majesté cases, it is unclear how many went to trial in 2013, though the annual figure is believed to be in the hundreds, and has increased steadily since the 2006 coup. It is estimated the number of lèse-majesté cases rose from 33 in 2005 to 478 in 2010.

And there was also this little detail which I am familiar with:

Individuals and the media cannot report on the offending content in such cases, as they would risk being prosecuted as well

A key point on the courts is included:

The Thai courts have played a decisive role in determining the outcome of political disputes, generating complaints of judicial activism and political bias.

And they add:

Since the coup, courts have voided an election won by Thaksin’s party; disbanded two parties linked to him (TRT and PPP); disqualified about 200 of his allies from assuming office; sentenced Thaksin to jail in absentia; and seized 46 billion baht ($1.6 billion) of his wealth.

There are other points, but let me end with an issue related to workers and human trafficking which has continued to be in recent news.

A March 2013 report by the Environmental Justice Foundation pointed to restrictive labor laws, expensive immigration processes, and government indifference as reasons for the expansion of migrant smuggling networks. Thai military and immigration officers were accused in 2013 of trafficking Rohingya refugees from western Burma

Now, these are several of the main points from the report. I do not see where I would need to cherry-pick points in order to somehow justify an unjustifiable position. The report points out the freedoms Thai people had and identifies the major restrictions of freedom and democracy. I do not disagree with the findings.

While Freedom House ranked Thailand as partly free, the less-free aspects of society tend to revolve around the changes made in 2006 and 2007 as well as the restrictive Article 112 and the long-standing involvement of the military in politics.

At no point does Freedom House recommend a military 'intervention' as a means of making Thailand 'more free'.

While a lengthy response, it seemed necessary. I hope that this responds adequately to your charge of "picking tidbits out of the jar".

[tbthailand]

New democracies?

BTW your faith in me is touching. Note though I may have to disappoint you as no coup I know of was thorough enough. Every time those pesky politicians came back to screw things up again. I'm slowly starting to understand that a democracy doesn't need politicians.

But thanks, another Brucy lesson in Democracy. Suggest frequently that history teaches you something while ignoring its lessons.

Yes, new democracies. That's what you have after the military topples the government and writes a new constitution before allowing elections.

I didn't limit you to coups in Thailand, name a coup anywhere in the world that led to a better government.

"no coup I know of was thorough enough"

Oh, you want extreme military government. For some reason I don't find this encouraging. Perhaps its the military's lack of interest or qualification in bringing about democracy.

"Every time those pesky politicians came back to screw things up again."

No, the juntas of the past were never afraid of politicians, they were afraid of the people and their enlisted troops drafted from the people. After the corruption and incompetence of past juntas became intolerable, and the junta leaders had secured enough wealth, the junta would step aside for a limited form of democracy.

As far as somebody ignoring the lessons of history, you should check a mirror.

History teaches us that anything is possible. If that was not the case we wouldn't have progress, now would we ?

History also teaches us that military juntas do not create more democratic societies.

[rubl]

Actually, I asked those questions because I did not want to assume something that you did not write. While I thought you were disagreeing, it was possible to read it two ways.

I read the freedom house and certainly did not miss the reference that you just posted, but of course there was nothing in your post that indicated that particular passage as your point of reference in a couple thousand words of information.

As for the KJJ post, the information is easily googled from what he posted, so that should not be a problem. As for his meaning, it was clear that he was referring to your statement that you don't read what is banned in Thailand and his post pointed out that freedom of the press has been getting worse and therefore you may not have information that is otherwise available. That seems like a reasonable post and btw, I would recommend that you search out a bit more information that is banned in Thailand and there are simple ways to do that.

So I guess from your posts now, that you disagree with KJJ and that leaves my other question based on your statement which is do you think that the Press Freedom index is manipulated? Your post would suggest that you do think that, but I am taking the opportunity to ask.

At times I wonder if you would have less problems understanding my posts if I wrote in Dutch.

Anyway I wrote that KJJ was very suggestive in his short selection of

""Press Freedom Index-

"2004 Thailand ranked 59th out of 167 countries during the Thaksin Government."

"2010 Thailand's ranking fell to 153rd out of 178 during the Abasit Government." "

Following I provided a link to the latest information, a link which also allows you to find other years on that side.

Now how does this fit in the topic of "lessons on democracy"? Simple.

Pick titbits out of the jar and use them to prove your point. Ignore the bits you don't like or which don't fit your philosophy or program. Don't let people glance at the other side of the coin as your side is better and more shiny.

BTW the part of the "Thailand 2014" article I quoted is also very interesting, Thailand democracy wise. It says that many red-shirts 'joined' the 'public outcry' against the blanket amnesty bill only because they didn't want 'the others' to be included. Now that's very democratic of course. No problem with "blanket amnesty to military personnel, politicians, protesters, and even thugs who played active roles during Thailand’s political crises of 2004–2010." Now that explains why the Pheu Thai MPs and UDD leaders had no problem diverting the red-shirts anger to the anti-government protests which threatened 'their' government.

... a very long and winding reply remove, click on the marker in the post header to see it ...

- "so I take the time to ask you to state explicitly what you meant and you don't take the opportunity to reply."

I did, it seems you didn't like it to the point of ignoring it.

following some blablabla. Next a question

"1) do you think the Press Freedom index is manipulated or not? I don't think so."

which I answered, as I said but you didn't seem to like the answer and continue ignoring it.

"2) the Freedom House paper has a lot of information and rates Thailand as partially free. I did not pick any points from it, but let me go ahead and do that."

Then followsa long list with dubious interpretations. Even the writers of the article complain about the blanket amnesty bill.

"At no point does Freedom House recommend a military 'intervention' as a means of making Thailand 'more free'."

Well, neither did they nor I.

"While a lengthy response, it seemed necessary. I hope that this responds adequately to your charge of "picking tidbits out of the jar". "

Au contrare, my dear chap. This just confirms it.

[rubl]

History teaches us that anything is possible. If that was not the case we wouldn't have progress, now would we ?

History also teaches us that military juntas do not create more democratic societies.

History teaches us that anything is possible.

For example, in January 2012 the hand picked Minister of Education in the clone PM Yingluck cabinet published his policy on education starting with the philosophy behind it. That philosophy started with something a criminal fugitive had said.

Of course history really likes criminals to influence the education of our kids.

[heybruce]

History teaches us that anything is possible. If that was not the case we wouldn't have progress, now would we ?

History also teaches us that military juntas do not create more democratic societies.

History teaches us that anything is possible.

For example, in January 2012 the hand picked Minister of Education in the clone PM Yingluck cabinet published his policy on education starting with the philosophy behind it. That philosophy started with something a criminal fugitive had said.

Of course history really likes criminals to influence the education of our kids.

Be careful about posting anything educational rubl. The junta wants their people to teach democracy, they don't want anyone else doing so:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/10/03/junta-suppression-academic-talk-democracy-exposes-cracks-in-thailand-peaceful/

The same story was covered by these three press organizations, and probably others:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/thailands-military-junta-raids-university-seminar-on-democracy-arresting-seven-9745933.html

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1609036/no-hope-rights-thai-professors-say-after-junta-halts-democracy-seminar

http://japanfocus.org/-Tyrell-Haberkorn/4199

I wonder if and how the Thailand press reported on this.

I found the following paragraph especially informative:

"The coup leader, Prayuth Chan-ocha, has been unapologetic. He views criticism of the junta as divisive and unhelpful. He said any group that wants to hold such seminars must get approval first, so the content can be screened — because "if it's about democracy or elections, or how the government is today, this they can't discuss.""

[tbthailand]

Actually, I asked those questions because I did not want to assume something that you did not write. While I thought you were disagreeing, it was possible to read it two ways.

I read the freedom house and certainly did not miss the reference that you just posted, but of course there was nothing in your post that indicated that particular passage as your point of reference in a couple thousand words of information.

As for the KJJ post, the information is easily googled from what he posted, so that should not be a problem. As for his meaning, it was clear that he was referring to your statement that you don't read what is banned in Thailand and his post pointed out that freedom of the press has been getting worse and therefore you may not have information that is otherwise available. That seems like a reasonable post and btw, I would recommend that you search out a bit more information that is banned in Thailand and there are simple ways to do that.

So I guess from your posts now, that you disagree with KJJ and that leaves my other question based on your statement which is do you think that the Press Freedom index is manipulated? Your post would suggest that you do think that, but I am taking the opportunity to ask.

At times I wonder if you would have less problems understanding my posts if I wrote in Dutch.

Anyway I wrote that KJJ was very suggestive in his short selection of

""Press Freedom Index-

"2004 Thailand ranked 59th out of 167 countries during the Thaksin Government."

"2010 Thailand's ranking fell to 153rd out of 178 during the Abasit Government." "

Following I provided a link to the latest information, a link which also allows you to find other years on that side.

Now how does this fit in the topic of "lessons on democracy"? Simple.

Pick titbits out of the jar and use them to prove your point. Ignore the bits you don't like or which don't fit your philosophy or program. Don't let people glance at the other side of the coin as your side is better and more shiny.

BTW the part of the "Thailand 2014" article I quoted is also very interesting, Thailand democracy wise. It says that many red-shirts 'joined' the 'public outcry' against the blanket amnesty bill only because they didn't want 'the others' to be included. Now that's very democratic of course. No problem with "blanket amnesty to military personnel, politicians, protesters, and even thugs who played active roles during Thailand’s political crises of 2004–2010." Now that explains why the Pheu Thai MPs and UDD leaders had no problem diverting the red-shirts anger to the anti-government protests which threatened 'their' government.

... a very long and winding reply remove, click on the marker in the post header to see it ...

- "so I take the time to ask you to state explicitly what you meant and you don't take the opportunity to reply."

I did, it seems you didn't like it to the point of ignoring it.

following some blablabla. Next a question

"1) do you think the Press Freedom index is manipulated or not? I don't think so."

which I answered, as I said but you didn't seem to like the answer and continue ignoring it.

"2) the Freedom House paper has a lot of information and rates Thailand as partially free. I did not pick any points from it, but let me go ahead and do that."

Then followsa long list with dubious interpretations. Even the writers of the article complain about the blanket amnesty bill.

"At no point does Freedom House recommend a military 'intervention' as a means of making Thailand 'more free'."

Well, neither did they nor I.

"While a lengthy response, it seemed necessary. I hope that this responds adequately to your charge of "picking tidbits out of the jar". "

Au contrare, my dear chap. This just confirms it.

so if you answered the question, then I obviously missed your answer. Humor me and answer one more time, please.

Do you think the Press Freedom Index is manipulated?

Thanks