Lpg/ngv

[mijan24]

There is no doubt that either LPG or NGV can be dangerous in the wrong situation.

I notice that some public (blue & white) buses are NG powered lets hope all safety is or has or will be applied.

On the subject of LPG lets hope they stop referring to this as cooking gas (recent article in an English Language newspaper did exactly that) yesterdays Nation referred to people trying to syphon from their cooking gas bottles into the LPG vehicle - All I could think was Jesus H Christ are they trying to beat the USA & China to Mars.

[Gary A]

I'm curious why you think LPG is so dangerous. At least if you have a leak it dissipates into the air. I would think that gasoline leaks would be more dangerous because it saturates materials and puddles on the ground. PNG due to the very high storage pressure would make me nervous. Diesel must be the safest of them all.

There is no doubt that either LPG or NGV can be dangerous in the wrong situation.

I notice that some public (blue & white) buses are NG powered lets hope all safety is or has or will be applied.

On the subject of LPG lets hope they stop referring to this as cooking gas (recent article in an English Language newspaper did exactly that) yesterdays Nation referred to people trying to syphon from their cooking gas bottles into the LPG vehicle - All I could think was Jesus H Christ are they trying to beat the USA & China to Mars.

[Plus]

In case of a leak, LPG - liquified gas, will stay, CNG(NGV) - compressed gas, will evaporate.

The problems (read explosions and fires) usually happen because of installation problems - just last month there was a report of yet another LPG car cathing fire. Many garages without any experience have jumpled on the bandwagon recently, should be careful with those.

It would be nice if we had more cars specifically designed for CNG - they are safe and they claim the same acceleration and power in on either fuel. Now we have 4mil Benz only. I read about Volvo and Colorado pickup coming soon.

[monty]

Guess they refer to LPG as cooking gas, because thats exactly what it is in Thailand.

When I go fill up on LPG, there's always lots of people queing up to get their cooking gastanks refilled!

All LPG stations have the necesary adapters to fill up any conventional gas tank used in Thailand...

I've seen adapters in America to allow you to refill your car tank (or most often RV tank) from a standard cooking gastank. Only problem is that you have to lift up the tank upside down and higher than the tank you are filling...

Plus, why do you think LPG does not evaporate? It's only liquid inside the bottle because it's under pressure! Outside it reverts to gas immediately. Only thing is it's heavier then air, so it stays on the ground...

[Plus]

That's probably exactly what it means - it will stay in pools of gas in your boot.

[wilko]

Petrol does not lie around in pools...it is highly volatile and forms a deadly highly explosive fuel/air mixture....for the whole story see the thread on mobile phones at Gas Stations.

Edited July 23, 2006 by wilko

[mijan24]

I'm curious why you think LPG is so dangerous. At least if you have a leak it dissipates into the air. I would think that gasoline leaks would be more dangerous because it saturates materials and puddles on the ground. PNG due to the very high storage pressure would make me nervous. Diesel must be the safest of them all.

There is no doubt that either LPG or NGV can be dangerous in the wrong situation.

I notice that some public (blue & white) buses are NG powered lets hope all safety is or has or will be applied.

On the subject of LPG lets hope they stop referring to this as cooking gas (recent article in an English Language newspaper did exactly that) yesterdays Nation referred to people trying to syphon from their cooking gas bottles into the LPG vehicle - All I could think was Jesus H Christ are they trying to beat the USA & China to Mars.

LPG can be very dangerous as some posters have touched on - Its not dangerous when installed and maintained correctly. Mis-Use is probably the biggest problem here in LoS

EG: of safe use

LPG has been used safely in Australia for many decades. The Australian standards for LPG equipment, appliances and their installation and for storage and handling are among the world’s best. Every aspect of the LPG industry is covered by a National Code or Standard and also by similar or additional State Regulations.

Modern Autogas engine systems are designed to be safe in use, safe to repair and safe in a vehicle accident. All LPG tanks are rigorously tested and much stronger than conventional petrol tanks. In a crash, they can withstand enormous impact forces without deforming or leaking.

Other mandated safety features include:

Two electronically controlled shut-off solenoids (on cylinder and under bonnet) which stop the flow of gas to the engine if the engine stops for any reason

Pressure relief valves for the tank and the system, to prevent any pressure build up that may damage the system, or be hazardous

Double back-check valves to ensure gas tight filling

Sealed compartments and venting around valves and pipe-work to ensure no LPG enters the interior of the vehicle.

Is or will be the same type of standards in Thailand ???

Edited July 24, 2006 by mijan24

[Plus]

Two worrying things - Thais are never great on safety, and there are too many brand new LPG shops around to have necessary training and experience.

"Brand new" means filthy little roadside shops with hand painted signs.

"Petrol does not...." - we were talking about LPG, not petrol

[mijan24]

Two worrying things - Thais are never great on safety, and there are too many brand new LPG shops around to have necessary training and experience.

"Brand new" means filthy little roadside shops with hand painted signs.

"Petrol does not...." - we were talking about LPG, not petrol

Plus -- YES right on the button it was discussed in one of the english language papers recently and SAFETY is a must with LPG and registered fit shops are or should be a MUST so if you are going to have LPG check out the fitting shops credentials or your next check could be a check-in at the pearly gates so to speak.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/progs/ddow...?afdc/FAQ/8/0/0

Edited July 27, 2006 by mijan24

[JAS21]

Two worrying things - Thais are never great on safety, and there are too many brand new LPG shops around to have necessary training and experience.

"Brand new" means filthy little roadside shops with hand painted signs.

"Petrol does not...." - we were talking about LPG, not petrol

Plus -- YES right on the button it was discussed in one of the english language papers recently and SAFETY is a must with LPG and registered fit shops are or should be a MUST so if you are going to have LPG check out the fitting shops credentials or your next check could be a check-in at the pearly gates so to speak.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/progs/ddow...?afdc/FAQ/8/0/0

We have just got our Mazda back today. Had it converted at a local garage Nonthaburi, who has been doing conversions for a few years now. I see newish Mercs Audi etc in there being converted.

It took three and a half days. Had the Itallian manufacturer..forgot the name..injection system not the suck system.

I was quite impressed with the workman ship..unusual for Thailand. I saw work on other cars before getting ours done. The cost 34000Baht think that is about the going price talking to taxi drivers. My wife got the price before I viewed the garage.

No idea about the credentials but its a neat installation and the garage appeared proficient.

I'll update how the car is in a week or so.

Edited July 27, 2006 by John45

[Plus]

Was it LPG or CNG/NGV? How does it run? Is there 10% drop in power?

[mijan24]

Two worrying things - Thais are never great on safety, and there are too many brand new LPG shops around to have necessary training and experience.

"Brand new" means filthy little roadside shops with hand painted signs.

"Petrol does not...." - we were talking about LPG, not petrol

Plus -- YES right on the button it was discussed in one of the english language papers recently and SAFETY is a must with LPG and registered fit shops are or should be a MUST so if you are going to have LPG check out the fitting shops credentials or your next check could be a check-in at the pearly gates so to speak.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/progs/ddow...?afdc/FAQ/8/0/0

We have just got our Mazda back today. Had it converted at a local garage Nonthaburi, who has been doing conversions for a few years now. I see newish Mercs Audi etc in there being converted.

It took three and a half days. Had the Itallian manufacturer..forgot the name..injection system not the suck system.

I was quite impressed with the workman ship..unusual for Thailand. I saw work on other cars before getting ours done. The cost 34000Baht think that is about the going price talking to taxi drivers. My wife got the price before I viewed the garage.

No idea about the credentials but its a neat installation and the garage appeared proficient.

I'll update how the car is in a week or so.

34000 a bit on the expensive side LPG with good size tank about 20000 should be the max.

[GoodHeart]

....just got our Mazda back today. Had it converted at a local garage Nonthaburi, who has been doing conversions for a few years now.

34000 a bit on the expensive side LPG with good size tank about 20000 should be the max.

Whooops.... You forgot to factor in his peace of mind: which is priceless.

[monty]

Not to expensive when they indeed used a third generation LPG injection system.

These are computer controlled, have an oxigensensor in the exhaust to continiously correct the amount of gas injected. Much less powerloss and consequently a much smaller increase in consumption.

The regular 15,000 to 20,000 Baht installations in Thailand still use the first generation, vacuum-controlled lpg systems. Basically at the price of LPG in Thailand, it would take way to long just to recuperate the extra investment on the 3th generation equipment.

[JAS21]

Was it LPG or CNG/NGV? How does it run? Is there 10% drop in power?

We had LPG The reason being that you can buy it in most provinces. The supply of CNG, as I understand from many taxi drivers, is limited to 200 petrol station in BK and few on none in other provinces.

As stated by others there are three generations on LPG conversions.. Many taxis now use 2nd generation injection systems

1st the 'sucker' system used to cost about 12000 baht but now is more like 16-18000 Baht. Not really suitable for large cars.

2nd is the injection system, this is the one we have. You can easily read all about the system by typing LPG concersion into Google. Several UK companys describe their system and you can even calculate the pay back. but you must put into the calculatio the relative price of gasoline/LPG in thailand..so put 33p/ltr as the LPG price and devide saving by 3.

In principle this system is slightly more economical than the sucker system. Also the engine should be slightly smoother.

Initial calculation shows just about 1baht/Ltr..this was only over 270 kilometers with a little driving in BK but mainly to Sumpanburi and back.

The engine had a flat spot and yesterday it went back for some re-tuning. I know that the garage does mainly Audi/VWs etc. Mazda's, been a Jap car is a little rarer. Anyway it was re-tumed..on LPG of course it has its own EMU so you can basically do anything you want. He did give the car a little more gas at low rpm and I believe a slight change to timing at low rpm. Last night it seemed much better..daughter has it for work today..she does about 80-90 Kilometers each day. Last year the car was doing 10Kms/Ltr on the open road..I suspect much much less than that in traffic (maybe 6ish!!). I expect that LPG consumption may be slightly higher now than it was at first due to more low down power . Out of interest she was using 240Baht of gasoline each day. I hope for a big reduction!

I will give an update on how everththing is in a couple of weeks..anything else you want to know PM me if you like.

The Mazda, whilst on gasoline, does have an O2 sensor but it is not used on our conversion. I understand that the 3rd generation conversion is quite expensive. I am happy with the quality of work and the consumption..a slight lack of power is no problem to me..I find 100-120 Kms adequate on the open road...espeially when you find cars coming towards you as the police have closed the other carriagway...and no warning signs. Also the car is nearly 10 years old.

Edited August 1, 2006 by John45

[Who, me ?]

Bringing an old topic back to life

What would you guys recommend ? NGV or LPG ? Let's say on a 2,400 V6 engine ? 100,000 Kms approx

Also, must the tank be inside the car ? Or can it be underneath ?

Thanks all

[Gary A]

Bringing an old topic back to life

What would you guys recommend ? NGV or LPG ? Let's say on a 2,400 V6 engine ? 100,000 Kms approx

Also, must the tank be inside the car ? Or can it be underneath ?

Thanks all

Every conversion I have seen has the fuel tank in the trunk, boot to some of you. LPG will go further on a tankful and it is easier to find gas stations. Apparently the CNG is cheaper but up country you will find it difficult to find gas stations that have it. If you live in an area that has CNG available, that would most likely be the cheapest way.

[Who, me ?]

Bringing an old topic back to life

What would you guys recommend ? NGV or LPG ? Let's say on a 2,400 V6 engine ? 100,000 Kms approx

Also, must the tank be inside the car ? Or can it be underneath ?

Thanks all

Every conversion I have seen has the fuel tank in the trunk, boot to some of you. LPG will go further on a tankful and it is easier to find gas stations. Apparently the CNG is cheaper but up country you will find it difficult to find gas stations that have it. If you live in an area that has CNG available, that would most likely be the cheapest way.

Thanks Gary A.

Being in Bangkok, I believe it should be no problem...

[monty]

CNG installations are much more expensive then LPG installations, although the new hight tech computer controlled LPG installations aren't cheap either (35,000 Baht)

Biggest drawback for me with CNG is the limited radius. Not too big of a problem with economic fuel sipping corolla's, but on a bigger engine like yours, range can be limited to between 150 and 200 km!

The filling up of a CNG tank also takes a long time, while filling up your LPG tank is comparable to filling up with gasoline!

For the car/owner, there is not much advantage in using CNG, apart from slightly lower fuel costs. The saving is maybe 50-100 Baht/1000 KM over LPG, taking maybe 100,000 or more km's to recuperate the extra installation cost!

The biggest advantage is for the government, since CNG is produced from natural gas, something Thailand has quite a lot of, while LPG is a byproduct of oil, something Thailand has to import!