A Rose By Any Other Name: A story of naive tourists, desperate parents, and negligent police

[mike324]

We should praise the police for actually doing their job and putting one of the hundreds of "bosses" behind jail. Its a good start nonetheless.

[GertrudeL]

Can anyone state the problem? Are you against kids working? What's your solution?

The suggestion: govermant must take care of us is not acceptable! Why it should take care of you? Did not you vote for democracy and capitalism? Capitalism is not socialism, you are free to take care if yourself! Goverment only protects you from criminal!

Edited October 3, 2014 by GertrudeL

[Farfetched]

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This thread has turned into Thai bashing...

I have bought roses from children...I will never miss a few baht...some destitute family may have food on the table because of their child selling roses...

So you support child labor and seem to be proud of it!

Let's suppose for just a minute, that people begin not buying the flowers, or gum or whatever. At the end of the night does the handler simply shrug his shoulders and tell the child not to worry, tomorrow will be a better day? Does he send them back home to Burma, or Chang Rai, or where ever when they can't produce anymore? I would guess not. I don't see their handlers being that compassionate. No, I do not condone this practice and the government need to step in and eliminate it. Severe penalties need to be put into place. Yes, I have donated to these children. I have also bought them food and given it to them, or a drink. I will continue to do so.

[Eliot Rosewater]

What a pussy society we created... Have a look on a picture of TRUE man! He will grow up as gentleman and not another justin bieber! I did my first buiness than I was 7!!! and I am happy as I was doing my little business. Selling goods in street develops personality and ability to justify your ideas. Japanese are forcing their team leaders to stand in the middle of station and tell (loudly) their biography!

You are comparing apples to oranges; you come from a culture where hard work, perseverance and gumption are all cherished qualities.

NOT SO HERE; a burmese street seller will NEVER, NEVER, (let me shout that one more time) NEVER raise their status in Thai society (and probably not in Burma either) as you are describing.

Open your eyes please

[DogNo1]

I am visiting southern California right now. There are Mexicans (or maybe South Americans from some other country) selling grapes and other stuff at the intersections in SW Los Angeles. Not as many as you see over the border in Tijuana though. Some of them are rather young. Granted that the plight of these sellers is not bad as that of the children selling flowers in Bangkok but it's a dangerous and desperate way to make a living. Over in Mexico, many of the sellers are children. So it's not only in Thailand!

[Bangkok Herps]

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This thread has turned into Thai bashing...

I have bought roses from children...I will never miss a few baht...some destitute family may have food on the table because of their child selling roses...

Or, according to the article; some destitute family may have lost a son or daughter because of the roses you (and others like you) have bought.

Think about that alt=clap2.gif>

This is exactly correct. I have worked with NGOs who served kids like this, and I will tell you with certainly that the more money these kids get, the harder it is to get them off the streets. And if they stay on the streets, the consequences can be really bad. A lot of those kids end up getting abused, and my best friend among them died on those streets last year.

All the Rose selling children should be ban from the street, or be arrested.

Exactly what good will arresting the children do? I hope you have a meaningful game plan after that.

[Bangkok Herps]

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This thread has turned into Thai bashing...

I have bought roses from children...I will never miss a few baht...some destitute family may have food on the table because of their child selling roses...

So you support child labor and seem to be proud of it!

Let's suppose for just a minute, that people begin not buying the flowers, or gum or whatever. At the end of the night does the handler simply shrug his shoulders and tell the child not to worry, tomorrow will be a better day? Does he send them back home to Burma, or Chang Rai, or where ever when they can't produce anymore? I would guess not. I don't see their handlers being that compassionate. No, I do not condone this practice and the government need to step in and eliminate it. Severe penalties need to be put into place. Yes, I have donated to these children. I have also bought them food and given it to them, or a drink. I will continue to do so.

At the very least, if you refuse to buy from them you're reducing the chances that they'll keep bringing more kids over. When you buy from them and keep their profits high, you're ensuring that child after child will be brought over in the future.

As far as the kids working right now go, as I said in the previous comment, the more profits they make the harder it is for the NGOs trying to help them to get them off the streets. There are NGOs trying to offer options to children like these, but as long as they are profit-machines then there's no chance to pry them from the handlers' grip. You stop paying them, the handlers will start looking for a different business, and then they'll take the options the NGOs are giving them.

Or, if you really want to help, you could join one of the NGOs helping the kids, or start your own. A lot better than padding the pockets of child traffickers and praying the money will trickle down somehow.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Bangkok Herps

[sotsira]

This thread has turned into Thai bashing...

I have bought roses from children...I will never miss a few baht...some destitute family may have food on the table because of their child selling roses...

And the other side to this coin is, that you are contributing to the problem, by funding the child's boss

or traffickers to continue to put these poor children in to slavery that profits only the gang leaders and traffickers.

[takkatan in the land]

This thread has turned into Thai bashing...

I have bought roses from children...I will never miss a few baht...some destitute family may have food on the table because of their child selling roses...

I don't think so this is thai bashing, I bet we'd all be agree in critizing this forms of youth work in others parts of the world,

why should be different when we are talking about thailand?

[northernjohn]

I understand now, It is not the fault of the people bringing the children from Burma to enslave them. It is the Thai peoples fault, and always has been, since the beginning of time. The stupidity of posts (posters) just overwhelms me. Good going police..One down and in prison and many more to go. Would love to see a country wide crackdown on this problem. OK, beat me up now.

I applaud you.

I have read enough to realize the posters don't give a hoot about the kids. They are just interested in Thai bashing. So far not a one has said what can I do to help the child. Sending them back to where their parents can not afford to support them is no help.

It is not a nice situation but people should stop and consider what is the best for the child. In many cases they are (sad to say) better off selling roses.

[northernjohn]

So stinky bull story... Written to impress foreigners... <deleted> trafficking? Are you kidding me?

I remember the case of some Chinese workers found in European country working illegally at some factory. How Europeans helped them? You are right, they make them free from slavery and send them BACK to their country to die from starving...

Those poor kids will grow up as prostitutes in those shelters (read hundreds true stories about shelters). Instead force their bosses gave those kids proper food, working hours, higher profit share and may be some education (as requirement). In that case you will help those kids get better life!

Great post.

I had read enough to stop reading them as I saw the way they were going. I support your opinion 100%.

[bangon04]

This thread has turned into Thai bashing...

I have bought roses from children...I will never miss a few baht...some destitute family may have food on the table because of their child selling roses...

give them something to eat that their handlers cannot sell. You don't need to buy roses.....

[GertrudeL]

This thread has turned into Thai bashing...

I have bought roses from children...I will never miss a few baht...some destitute family may have food on the table because of their child selling roses...

give them something to eat that their handlers cannot sell. You don't need to buy roses.....

I did the same couple of times (there is always 7/11 and family mart nearby), the kid seemed surprised but her true smile makes me believe she liked it more than money ^^ If you spend couple of minutes with kid, ask her name, where she is from, you will help her learn/practice English, which may help her in the future. There are mo bad kids, there are bad adults

[balo]

Another Thai bashing thread on Thaivisa.

What about a little bit of Myanmar bashing , since they are poor they don't deserve it ?

[northernjohn]

This thread has turned into Thai bashing...

I have bought roses from children...I will never miss a few baht...some destitute family may have food on the table because of their child selling roses...

give them something to eat that their handlers cannot sell. You don't need to buy roses.....

and are you also going to give them a roof over there head?

There handlers are.

[Bangkok Herps]

This thread has turned into Thai bashing...

I have bought roses from children...I will never miss a few baht...some destitute family may have food on the table because of their child selling roses...

give them something to eat that their handlers cannot sell. You don't need to buy roses.....

and are you also going to give them a roof over there head?

There handlers are.

Do you even understand what you are saying?

"Hey kid, come work for me and I'll feed you and give you a roof over your head. All you have to do is beg from rich people and sell them little stuff for me, and now and then let yourself get molested by the pedophiles here. You won't have a real family, you won't get an education, you'll probably transition into sex work, and I'll throw you out to fend for yourself when you're too old to make money for me, at which point you'll have no meaningful skills to improve your education or get a legal job. But hey, roof over your head!"

[Bangkok Herps]

As I said before, I was with an organization that worked with these kids, and I WAS IN A POSITION TO GIVE THEM A ROOF OVER THEIR HEADS. Not only that, but get them away from the streets, into school, and a job set up for their caretakers.

And it didn't happen, in multiple cases. You know why? BECAUSE THEY WERE MAKING TOO MUCH MONEY FOR THEIR HANDLERS.

And this goes both for the cases where their "handlers" were human traffickers unrelated to them and for cases where their "handlers" were their own parents or a single mom.

And yes, those kids did get sexually molested. And their handlers take money for that. And when they get older, some of them do end up in that work full time. And when you're been molested since you were a little kid and started real sex work in your early teens, I don't consider that to be a true "voluntary choice", no matter how long they end up doing it because they don't know anything else.

[GertrudeL]

As I said before, I was with an organization that worked with these kids, and I WAS IN A POSITION TO GIVE THEM A ROOF OVER THEIR HEADS. Not only that, but get them away from the streets, into school, and a job set up for their caretakers.

And it didn't happen, in multiple cases. You know why? BECAUSE THEY WERE MAKING TOO MUCH MONEY FOR THEIR HANDLERS.

And this goes both for the cases where their "handlers" were human traffickers unrelated to them and for cases where their "handlers" were their own parents or a single mom.

And yes, those kids did get sexually molested. And their handlers take money for that. And when they get older, some of them do end up in that work full time. And when you're been molested since you were a little kid and started real sex work in your early teens, I don't consider that to be a true "voluntary choice", no matter how long they end up doing it because they don't know anything else.

That's the problem... you were trying it yourself (organization). The solution is in cooperation between goverment and such organisations. You have no right to force anyone do anything (even for good sake). From the other point, goverment may not have enought resoureces to handle that much kids. If those two help each other, then kids will benefit from it... I fully agree with your statements but in the original story, sending those kids back home is not a solution... I would probably say that here they have little but still chance to get better life while at home they will die form hunger or become prositute anyway... Is not it better at least try here?

What I really do not understand - why those families do not have food? It's so simple to make food for living... they are not well economically educated but they should get some basic knowledge from their parents how to take care of chikens, caws, harvest rice and etc. I feel more like they are simply lazy and prefer die form hunger than work... or wait for us, europeans feel sorry and 'help' them...

[GertrudeL]

Do you even understand what you are saying?

"Hey kid, come work for me and I'll feed you and give you a roof over your head. All you have to do is beg from rich people and sell them little stuff for me, and now and then let yourself get molested by the pedophiles here. You won't have a real family, you won't get an education, you'll probably transition into sex work, and I'll throw you out to fend for yourself when you're too old to make money for me, at which point you'll have no meaningful skills to improve your education or get a legal job. But hey, roof over your head!"

What's the problem working for a rich man? Why do you expect rich man treat equally? Do not tell me about bull ... European equality!!! Even in embassy the skin color, nationality and religion are taken in an account to assign a visa!!! In other words, if there is a potential murderer but with American nationality it will get any EU visa AUTOMATICALLY. At the same time, honest, hard working guy from African country MUST justify that he is good guy, where is your f...ing equality?

Once kids will prove that he understand the responsibility of being human, she/he will be treated as equal human being. The problem is that most of them do not have even basic knowledge of etiquette (nowadays even in Europe). If you help them they will treat that as you weakness! They will say 'see how stupid this foreigner is, I cheated on him, I charged him 10x more than this flowers costs', do not expect them to understand your kindness... omg, it's so complicated but I doubt that you understand even 10% of what I said...

[Bangkok Herps]

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As I said before, I was with an organization that worked with these kids, and I WAS IN A POSITION TO GIVE THEM A ROOF OVER THEIR HEADS. Not only that, but get them away from the streets, into school, and a job set up for their caretakers.

And it didn't happen, in multiple cases. You know why? BECAUSE THEY WERE MAKING TOO MUCH MONEY FOR THEIR HANDLERS.

And this goes both for the cases where their "handlers" were human traffickers unrelated to them and for cases where their "handlers" were their own parents or a single mom.

And yes, those kids did get sexually molested. And their handlers take money for that. And when they get older, some of them do end up in that work full time. And when you're been molested since you were a little kid and started real sex work in your early teens, I don't consider that to be a true "voluntary choice", no matter how long they end up doing it because they don't know anything else.

That's the problem... you were trying it yourself (organization). The solution is in cooperation between goverment and such organisations. You have no right to force anyone do anything (even for good sake). From the other point, goverment may not have enought resoureces to handle that much kids. If those two help each other, then kids will benefit from it... I fully agree with your statements but in the original story, sending those kids back home is not a solution... I would probably say that here they have little but still chance to get better life while at home they will die form hunger or become prositute anyway... Is not it better at least try here?

What I really do not understand - why those families do not have food? It's so simple to make food for living... they are not well economically educated but they should get some basic knowledge from their parents how to take care of chikens, caws, harvest rice and etc. I feel more like they are simply lazy and prefer die form hunger than work... or wait for us, europeans feel sorry and 'help' them...

Why are you assuming that I'm European?

Why are you assuming that we didn't work with the government? We collaborated with the government whenever it was in the best interest of the people that we were trying to help. However, if you were at all familiar with how the Thai government treats street kids who are not of Thai nationality, you'd really that there are many situations in which it is not in the child's best interest to involve the government.

Why are you assuming that we forced anyone to do anything? Unlike the government, or these handlers, we never forced the children to do anything. Everything we did was always with the consent of the children and their parents/handlers. Unfortunately, that meant that the most significant help we could offer was turned down - because the children were making so much money for their handlers.

As far as the rest of what you say, it is rather ridiculous and shows that you simply don't understand their situation in the least. But yes, calling other people lazy, or assuming that they are stupid and don't know basic skills, is a very easy way out.

Do you even understand what you are saying?

"Hey kid, come work for me and I'll feed you and give you a roof over your head. All you have to do is beg from rich people and sell them little stuff for me, and now and then let yourself get molested by the pedophiles here. You won't have a real family, you won't get an education, you'll probably transition into sex work, and I'll throw you out to fend for yourself when you're too old to make money for me, at which point you'll have no meaningful skills to improve your education or get a legal job. But hey, roof over your head!"

What's the problem working for a rich man? Why do you expect rich man treat equally? Do not tell me about bull ... European equality!!! Even in embassy the skin color, nationality and religion are taken in an account to assign a visa!!! In other words, if there is a potential murderer but with American nationality it will get any EU visa AUTOMATICALLY. At the same time, honest, hard working guy from African country MUST justify that he is good guy, where is your f...ing equality?

Once kids will prove that he understand the responsibility of being human, she/he will be treated as equal human being. The problem is that most of them do not have even basic knowledge of etiquette (nowadays even in Europe). If you help them they will treat that as you weakness! They will say 'see how stupid this foreigner is, I cheated on him, I charged him 10x more than this flowers costs', do not expect them to understand your kindness... omg, it's so complicated but I doubt that you understand even 10% of what I said...

I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're talking about. Did you even read what I said? I'd say that not getting to grow up in a family, being forced into child labor, not getting an education, and being subjected to sexual abuse would probably be the biggest problems with "working for a rich man". Do you not see the problem in that? And you want to keep funneling money to these rich men?

[GertrudeL]

Why are you assuming that I'm European?

Why are you assuming that we didn't work with the government? We collaborated with the government whenever it was in the best interest of the people that we were trying to help. However, if you were at all familiar with how the Thai government treats street kids who are not of Thai nationality, you'd really that there are many situations in which it is not in the child's best interest to involve the government.

Why are you assuming that we forced anyone to do anything? Unlike the government, or these handlers, we never forced the children to do anything. Everything we did was always with the consent of the children and their parents/handlers. Unfortunately, that meant that the most significant help we could offer was turned down - because the children were making so much money for their handlers.

As far as the rest of what you say, it is rather ridiculous and shows that you simply don't understand their situation in the least. But yes, calling other people lazy, or assuming that they are stupid and don't know basic skills, is a very easy way out.

I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're talking about. Did you even read what I said? I'd say that not getting to grow up in a family, being forced into child labor, not getting an education, and being subjected to sexual abuse would probably be the biggest problems with "working for a rich man". Do you not see the problem in that? And you want to keep funneling money to these rich men?

1) Your country does not make any difference... There are no equality in WHOLE world... and never be! It's a bull ... term created to make some people feel they have right to do/say something. Do you want do/say? Then fight for it! (law of natural selection)

2) Working with govermant does not mean working 'on paper'... When I am saying WORKING I mean really WORKING. With your attitude (we do not force anyone, omg) you will NEVER do any progress... (unfortuantely).

3) Where did I say you 'force'? IMHO only hard work (forced) could evolve monkey into a human (uncle Darwin confirmed it). If parents refuse your help and keep forcing kid to work that means they do not need help, they need easy money, send them to prison! (I do not tolerate lazy people)

4) I do not understand them???? hahaha What if I tell you that I was grow up in much worse conditions and my dreams as child was to buy a book? hahaha We are poor, we have no money for food... this is bull ... argument for people like you, who believes them hahaha BTW you do not help them, you make them lazy!

5) Finally... the example about visa... it's live example of 'equality' in real world... you have to be born in Africa or any other poor country, to understand what does 'equality' means

[Bangkok Herps]

Gertrude, you are one strange cat, I'll give you that much.

p.s. - I don't think you understand Darwin, and I can certain assure you that Darwin has nothing to do with this conversation.

p.p.s. - You're the only one in the conversation talking about "equality", I never mentioned it. And I only mentioned "force" in response to you. You seem to be arguing with yourself.

[marcusd]

Lovely parents. How devoted and caring. Shoot them. A holes!

[GertrudeL]

Gertrude, you are one strange cat, I'll give you that much.

p.s. - I don't think you understand Darwin, and I can certain assure you that Darwin has nothing to do with this conversation.

p.p.s. - You're the only one in the conversation talking about "equality", I never mentioned it. And I only mentioned "force" in response to you. You seem to be arguing with yourself.

What's the purpose of your charity/help - make world better am I right? (so am I) How can you make it better place if you do not understand human beings?

It's VERY difficult to help properly... teaching poor without preparing them for that knowledge, is the same as giving a grenade to a monkey... (it will kill itself and others)

'All you have to do is beg from rich people and sell them little stuff for me' - does not it mean that rich guy should treat those kids as from the same social level?

Once I read interesting fiction/philosophy book, the people from future were trying to help people from middle century develop... the guys said:

"the poor/slaves do not respect us (liberators) as they cannot imagine themselves doing it for no reason (free), however they worship their masters as they can easily imagine themselves on their place..."

[Bangkok Herps]

I ask that they have some chance at a reasonable future as adults, that they not be sold to pedophiles, nor be put into situations where they are almost certain to be sexually abused by pedophiles.

You are using some ridiculous pop philosophy to try to defend the people who are doing exactly that.

I think we've taken our particular argument as far as it's going to go.

[GertrudeL]

I ask that they have some chance at a reasonable future as adults, that they not be sold to pedophiles, nor be put into situations where they are almost certain to be sexually abused by pedophiles.

You are using some ridiculous pop philosophy to try to defend the people who are doing exactly that.

I think we've taken our particular argument as far as it's going to go.

Actually we both are trying to help... do you have any counter argument against my 'ridiculous' theory? Getting back to the topic:

I do not see any problem if kids will do some easy 'job', selling flowers/souvenirs, singing, performing... IMHO the most important is that kids should benefit from that work (at least understand how selling/show business works). Even if bosses will send ALL money to her/his parents, it does not guarantee that kids will benefit from it! It does not matter how much money she will make, they (parents) will still spend more than she will make (the main reason why many girls stuck with prostitution and cannot give up). Once again, we cannot discuss topic without getting deep in culture.

As far as I can see, kids in Asia are treated as SLAVES, they were grown with that idea: do what ever you want but please your parents (including stealing, prostitution, cheating...), do not worry, when you will have yours, you will turn them into your own slaves too =)

If you want to help those kids, try to make them understand that they are FREE, helping parents does not mean turning oneself into a SLAVE. I tried many times but whenever I helped them setup their own business, they end up sending ALL money to their parents (who waste them) and destroying the business.

Also, why do you think that kids who are selling flowers are sexually abused? At least in this particular story, the case was 'child labor'...

Edited October 5, 2014 by GertrudeL

[Bangkok Herps]

Very happy to see that Kailash Satyarthi, a lifelong activist against child labour, just won the Nobel Peace Prize. Here is an article he wrote that shows where he stands, and why it's so important to stand up for children in these circumstances rather than simply facilitating their handlers:

"Child labour perpetuates illiteracy, poverty, and corruption"

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/281292/child-labour-perpetuates-illiteracy-poverty.html

Edited October 12, 2014 by Bangkok Herps

[slipperx]

I understand now, It is not the fault of the people bringing the children from Burma to enslave them. It is the Thai peoples fault, and always has been, since the beginning of time. The stupidity of posts (posters) just overwhelms me. Good going police..One down and in prison and many more to go. Would love to see a country wide crackdown on this problem. OK, beat me up now.

It's both. They two issues are connected not mutually exclusive.

[inzman]

When you buy roses from these "cute" street kids, they don't get the money. The parents don't get the money, the mob boss gets the money. You are propagating this immoral and illegal act, and your actions are ensuring that there is a market for enslaving these "cute" street kids. Is that what you want? Think about it next time one approaches you. Get your head out of the sand.

[tim armstrong]

Ironically Thailand is a signatory to several international agreements designed to protect children and stop could be mounted by the police, they've done it with drugs. So the question this time is why not? They have the legal, and moral authority to step in. But as always the money trail maybe a problem.