Australian PM orders parliamentary burka ban rethink

[Ombra]

Arabs expect Westerners to dress and act in an appropriate way in the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia, but they themselves expect to be able to behave like Arabs in the West. They don't understand - or care about - the notion of 'when in Rome ...'

[Alwyn]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Firstly I'd love to see you substantiate that claim that nuns ever wore full face covering habits! Secondly, nuns are women of God. They are devout ladies who are celibate and consider themselves married to God. You cannot even compare a nun with a common and garden Muslim woman with 10 kids and and an abusive husband. The deal with banning the burqa is a security issue. Burqas have no connection at all with Islam; There is nothing in the Koran or Haddith that suggests a woman must have her face covered, the face covering was originally for protection against sand storms, now it's an excuse for Muslim men to subordinate their women and start rows like this.

[arjunadawn]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Catholic nuns are not trying to carve out sharia compliant states. Catholic nuns are not seeking court precedents for special rights under the law, not equal rights. Catholic preists are not motivating the lay to violence, murder, and inciting violence to enable sharia throughout nearly every country on the earth. The catholic lay are not demanding special catholic rights throughout the world, while limiting others'. In a narrow snapshot, without context, your point is understandable. People have fear because... they are waking up!

It most certainly is newsworthy.

[opalred]

i do have to add you can have a say what you like on tvf but in muslim country cannt take at moment there is a program coming on history channel a story about the bible IT HAS BEEN BANNED IN MALAYASIA we donnt ban any muslim program to those who want to watch

[MJP]

Should be compulsory if ugly.

[EnglishJohn]

I come to Thailand under the full understanding that it is my responsibility to fit in with the Thai way of life. If the traditions of the country say I wear full length trousers in a temple then I wear them. I do not complain to everyone I can find that I should be allowed to follow the traditions of my own country. If I don't like it, I accept it is my responsibility to move somewhere else. That's exactly what Muslims who emigrate to another country should do. These people accept everything the state can give them and still fundamentally hate the people they are taking it from. I for one am sick of them shouting 'racist' when they are the most racist of the lot. Though no one dare tell them because heads will start to roll. I have many friends who think the same way - but there is no outlet for 'Nationalism' any more : you are immediately thrown in the same bucket as the out-and-out racist bigots.

[arjunadawn]

I come to Thailand under the full understanding that it is my responsibility to fit in with the Thai way of life. If the traditions of the country say I wear full length trousers in a temple then I wear them. I do not complain to everyone I can find that I should be allowed to follow the traditions of my own country. If I don't like it, I accept it is my responsibility to move somewhere else. That's exactly what Muslims who emigrate to another country should do. These people accept everything the state can give them and still fundamentally hate the people they are taking it from. I for one am sick of them shouting 'racist' when they are the most racist of the lot. Though no one dare tell them because heads will start to roll. I have many friends who think the same way - but there is no outlet for 'Nationalism' any more : you are immediately thrown in the same bucket as the out-and-out racist bigots.

This is a great post, thanks. And the saying "heads will start to roll" could not have been more perfect.

[simple1]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

This is a stupid comment, nuns show their faces the last time I looked, in fact many dress western nowadays. In addition a nun serves god not an idiot Muslim man, just wake up.

Muslims serve Allah, not Mohammed.

What is missing in the responses to the OP is that anyone trying to enter Parliament, with full face covering, must go through two security checks. Abbott's response is to the proposal that anyone wearing a Burka must sit in a room, separated from the Chamber by a sealed glass wall. This is the measure he is saying is discriminatory & divisive and should be rescinded.

[rjcampbe]

Put a big cross around your neck or female wear a singlet in any Arab country and see what happens.

It's about time West stops being " politically correct"

They made a choice to migrate to Western world , then dress and act like it's acceptable in the West.

If you want to live by your own ways, then stay in your country or move to another with the same values

I agree with that western countries should stop trying to be so politically correct.

However, I don't think this is about religion at all. I think it is about common sense and Mr. Abbott is on the wrong side of this one.

I have ridden motorcycles my whole life and I tend to wear full face helmets... Just try to board an airplane, or walk into a bank, or a court building, or even a 7-11 wearing a full face helmet and see how that goes for you.

While you are at it, try it with a ski mask... There are places you just can't go without showing your face and in some cases valid ID.

If I want to go into the bank, I take off the helmet first, and it's the same with any other place with a heightened security profile.

There is no rational reason why the same requirement shouldn't apply to everyone... And that has NOTHING to do with religious bias.

The fact is that the entire world is not going to conform to any one person or groups rules. People need to adapt to the cultural norms of the place they live in. When in Rome...

[Scott]

Troll post and replies deleted.

[louse1953]

Burquas should be banned in all the Western World when they pose security issues.. That would include in my view all places where people gather, banks, shops, restaurants and all public transport. No doubt many more places. When a crime is committed, witnesses are usually able to give a description of the criminal. What information can you provide when the suspect is adorned in a burqua.

Let the wearers remember whose country it is...and then consider abiding by that countries rules!

.

What info can be given when a crime is committed wearing a hoody,balaclava etc.Whose country is it,Muslim Ozzies born or who have gained citizenship,that's who.There is no law in Oz banning burquas and it is redneck racist Australians who are abusing women and even spitting at them who are breaking the law.What kind of person attacks women,a gutless one.Don't see them abusing Muslim men,unless it's in a car speeding away.

[louse1953]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Here's where the problem lie, no nun is ever known to strap an explosive belt to her self

and blow it in a crowded place just because someone told her that Allah said so, Nuns

don't do that...

now if the burquas were a face/head cover for ANY OTHER RELIGION in the world, there

will not be a problem at all, is just that burquas wearing people are strongly associated

with a religion that see nothing wrong and have no qualm in blowing other people to bits

( or behead them ) even though those people done nothing to deserve it...

So Ozzy pilots will soon be bombing and killing a lot of children,even though they don't deserve it,just because Abbott said they could,you got a problem with that.

[louse1953]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

This is a stupid comment, nuns show their faces the last time I looked, in fact many dress western nowadays. In addition a nun serves god not an idiot Muslim man, just wake up.

Allah is God,same same,not different.You can go back to sleep now.

[Gillyflower]

I'm very sorry, but for many years (in Australia) when I was a child and a teenager, nuns wore long black gowns and a head-dress that covered the head,, leaving only the face bare. I was always told that they had their heads shaved.

I see many women wearing the burka on baking hot days - you can see their jeans, whilst they are accompanied by their hubbies wearing shorts and a t-shirt if not a singlet.

[louse1953]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Catholic nuns are not trying to carve out sharia compliant states. Catholic nuns are not seeking court precedents for special rights under the law, not equal rights. Catholic preists are not motivating the lay to violence, murder, and inciting violence to enable sharia throughout nearly every country on the earth. The catholic lay are not demanding special catholic rights throughout the world, while limiting others'. In a narrow snapshot, without context, your point is understandable. People have fear because... they are waking up!

It most certainly is newsworthy.

Catholic priests aren't doing it now doing it now,but just go back a few hundred years.What about not using contraception,how many women have contracted AIDS and died because of that.If you think Catholic cardinals don't influence politics you should think again.A pox on all religions.

[Gillyflower]

In France, wearing the scarf etc has been banned for some time. Quite often I see on TV, western women married to muslims who don the burkabe cause they 'supposedly" want to and 'supposedly' believe in it. Good luck to them. It is no different to the fact that a whole lot of young women (15 and 16) run away from home to go to Turkey to join the jihadistes. And that is a fact.

[arjunadawn]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Catholic nuns are not trying to carve out sharia compliant states. Catholic nuns are not seeking court precedents for special rights under the law, not equal rights. Catholic preists are not motivating the lay to violence, murder, and inciting violence to enable sharia throughout nearly every country on the earth. The catholic lay are not demanding special catholic rights throughout the world, while limiting others'. In a narrow snapshot, without context, your point is understandable. People have fear because... they are waking up!

It most certainly is newsworthy.

Catholic priests aren't doing it now doing it now,but just go back a few hundred years.What about not using contraception,how many women have contracted AIDS and died because of that.If you think Catholic cardinals don't influence politics you should think again.A pox on all religions.

Of course; however we are not discussing hundreds of years ago, nor are we discussing contraception. We are not even discussing the dreadful AIDs virus. Whether or not cardinals influence politics is also irrelevant. Why? Becuase the analogy of burkas and nuns/priests and imamsis obviously made because of religious commonground; but the similarities end here. The policies being considered regarding burkas, regarding immigration, regarding incitement to sedition, terrorism, fighting in IS ranks, etc., from AU to UK, to US, to numerous places, are taking place because Islam has by its recent record (if not total) created the profile of clear and present danger to life, liberty, and western civilization's way of life.

So, whether or not nuns do this, cardinals are political, etc., it cannot stand as analogous. The glue that binds catholicism is not, in this century, posing an overwhelming threat to life and liberty.

There are three basic tools in evaluating threat: 1) Proximity 2) Capability and 3) Intent

We are aware of the endless stream of scriptural authorization commanding jihadis to do such actions. We are aware that jihad has a soft element too; migration jihad, marriage jihad, reproduction jihad, and jihad "Lawfare" (where muslims choke up host country legal system with every manner of charge). Thus we are aware of the Intent.

People posing such threats, such charges of divine mandate to destroy us, are less a risk overseas, but polls and indeed actions are increasingly informing us that there many jihadis or sympathizers amongst us, often finessing the line between sedition and insurgency. The Proximity of the threat, secondary to self destructive immigration laws and the stalking horse "Human Rights" plea, has much of this threat very close to our homes.

Lastly, we have Capability. Two of the Three elments exist. Capability aims to lessen through smart laws and policies the fuel for radicals, the means to traffic easily, the limitation on hate speech, and identifying those among us who pose a potential or immediate risk.

I am uncertain if the burka ban is smart or appropriately concieved in this instance. However, the reasons for lawmakers scrambling around the world is because they have left the back door open so long that the issue of "Proximity" is overwhelming, and overnight an alien culture has sprung up insisting on the destruction of our own, under the color of law.

Islamic law is based on a few simple books but the exegeis of Islamic Law and fatwas is exhausting. I dont recall reading any primary source justification of women wearing burkas (it is infered from Gabriel's conversation with Mohhamed and the requirement his wife cover). I suggest evidence of this is the various muslims regions implementing this differently; If someone knows, please share. The burka is one of the stalking horses to force different upon us as privledged.

[landslide]

This is just political directness run amok. We are facing the same thing here in the US. It is a security issue, pure and simple. Muslim immigrants come to a country that has freedom, unlike the countries that they left, and immediately complain about laws and customs that do not comform to their version of Muslim life. If you don't like the laws and customms of the country you immigrate to, don't immigrate.

[hard124get]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

As a student of history, I would be very interested in seeing a photo of these full face coverings of Nuns in Australia as I have no recollection of ever having seen them in my study. Mind, not questioning, just wanting to learn. Can you post at least one photo of this?

"Before the Vatican II Council the trademark of Catholic nuns used to be their habit, consisting of flowing robes and veils that covered the entire body, leaving only the face and hands visible.

But the design of the habits of the many orders of nuns has varied over the ages. During various times in history it has been practices among some orders to have their nuns to also veil their faces. Today this tradition is very uncommon and only a few orders mandates this practice.

Most of the times the nuns used veils similar to the burqa used by some Muslim women." https://www.flickr.com/photos/23168191@N00/sets/72157601647382234/

Edited October 3, 2014 by hard124get

[Thorgal]

A burqa is not a nicab...but in terms of justice they will finally end up as Lady Godiva...

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/burqa-ban-a-political-excuse-for-persecution-20141002-10p0mc.html

[hard124get]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Firstly I'd love to see you substantiate that claim that nuns ever wore full face covering habits! Secondly, nuns are women of God. They are devout ladies who are celibate and consider themselves married to God. You cannot even compare a nun with a common and garden Muslim woman with 10 kids and and an abusive husband. The deal with banning the burqa is a security issue. Burqas have no connection at all with Islam; There is nothing in the Koran or Haddith that suggests a woman must have her face covered, the face covering was originally for protection against sand storms, now it's an excuse for Muslim men to subordinate their women and start rows like this.

Firstly: https://www.flickr.com/photos/23168191@N00/sets/72157601647382234/

Secondly: How does having 10 kids and an abusive husband make you a security risk?

[Thorgal]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Catholic nuns are not trying to carve out sharia compliant states. Catholic nuns are not seeking court precedents for special rights under the law, not equal rights. Catholic preists are not motivating the lay to violence, murder, and inciting violence to enable sharia throughout nearly every country on the earth. The catholic lay are not demanding special catholic rights throughout the world, while limiting others'. In a narrow snapshot, without context, your point is understandable. People have fear because... they are waking up!

It most certainly is newsworthy.

Catholic priests aren't doing it now doing it now,but just go back a few hundred years.What about not using contraception,how many women have contracted AIDS and died because of that.If you think Catholic cardinals don't influence politics you should think again.A pox on all religions.

Of course; however we are not discussing hundreds of years ago, nor are we discussing contraception. We are not even discussing the dreadful AIDs virus. Whether or not cardinals influence politics is also irrelevant. Why? Becuase the analogy of burkas and nuns/priests and imamsis obviously made because of religious commonground; but the similarities end here. The policies being considered regarding burkas, regarding immigration, regarding incitement to sedition, terrorism, fighting in IS ranks, etc., from AU to UK, to US, to numerous places, are taking place because Islam has by its recent record (if not total) created the profile of clear and present danger to life, liberty, and western civilization's way of life.

So, whether or not nuns do this, cardinals are political, etc., it cannot stand as analogous. The glue that binds catholicism is not, in this century, posing an overwhelming threat to life and liberty.

There are three basic tools in evaluating threat: 1) Proximity 2) Capability and 3) Intent

We are aware of the endless stream of scriptural authorization commanding jihadis to do such actions. We are aware that jihad has a soft element too; migration jihad, marriage jihad, reproduction jihad, and jihad "Lawfare" (where muslims choke up host country legal system with every manner of charge). Thus we are aware of the Intent.

People posing such threats, such charges of divine mandate to destroy us, are less a risk overseas, but polls and indeed actions are increasingly informing us that there many jihadis or sympathizers amongst us, often finessing the line between sedition and insurgency. The Proximity of the threat, secondary to self destructive immigration laws and the stalking horse "Human Rights" plea, has much of this threat very close to our homes.

Lastly, we have Capability. Two of the Three elments exist. Capability aims to lessen through smart laws and policies the fuel for radicals, the means to traffic easily, the limitation on hate speech, and identifying those among us who pose a potential or immediate risk.

I am uncertain if the burka ban is smart or appropriately concieved in this instance. However, the reasons for lawmakers scrambling around the world is because they have left the back door open so long that the issue of "Proximity" is overwhelming, and overnight an alien culture has sprung up insisting on the destruction of our own, under the color of law.

Islamic law is based on a few simple books but the exegeis of Islamic Law and fatwas is exhausting. I dont recall reading any primary source justification of women wearing burkas (it is infered from Gabriel's conversation with Mohhamed and the requirement his wife cover). I suggest evidence of this is the various muslims regions implementing this differently; If someone knows, please share. The burka is one of the stalking horses to force different upon us as privledged.

You forgot to provide the link :

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_threat

[arjunadawn]

You forgot to provide the link :

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_threat

No, I didn't forget. I'd only ever seen that link now. Thanks. I'd no idea this was a geopolitical theory but makes sense, and still applies. I'd learned that from great instructors teaching high threat protection- defense only. Thku. Edited October 4, 2014 by arjunadawn

[halloween]

Mary Mackillop, Australian canonized nun, only some of face showing

Google her name, get 8 images with face uncovered. Click "more images" and get literally hundreds, not one with face covered.

[halloween]

So Ozzy pilots will soon be bombing and killing a lot of children,even though they don't deserve it,just because Abbott said they could,you got a problem with that.

Too right. That is interfering in their god-given right to kill each other.

[halloween]

In France, wearing the scarf etc has been banned for some time. Quite often I see on TV, western women married to muslims who don the burkabe cause they 'supposedly" want to and 'supposedly' believe in it. Good luck to them. It is no different to the fact that a whole lot of young women (15 and 16) run away from home to go to Turkey to join the jihadistes. And that is a fact.

That is what happens when brainwash susceptible children. If teaching religion was banned until teenage years, religions would disappear within a few generations, because people capable of rational thought find it much harder to accept as fact illogical and baseless dogma with no supporting evidence.

[simple1]

So Ozzy pilots will soon be bombing and killing a lot of children,even though they don't deserve it,just because Abbott said they could,you got a problem with that.

Too right. That is interfering in their god-given right to kill each other.

So its OK by you for innocent civilians (including non Muslims) being raped, tortured, enslaved and murdered in their thousands, without any intervention?

[halloween]

So Ozzy pilots will soon be bombing and killing a lot of children,even though they don't deserve it,just because Abbott said they could,you got a problem with that.

Too right. That is interfering in their god-given right to kill each other.

So its OK by you for innocent civilians (including non Muslims) being raped, tortured, enslaved and murdered in their thousands, without any intervention?

Your sarcasm meter needs recalibrating.

[samran]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Catholic nuns are not trying to carve out sharia compliant states. Catholic nuns are not seeking court precedents for special rights under the law, not equal rights. Catholic preists are not motivating the lay to violence, murder, and inciting violence to enable sharia throughout nearly every country on the earth. The catholic lay are not demanding special catholic rights throughout the world, while limiting others'. In a narrow snapshot, without context, your point is understandable. People have fear because... they are waking up!

It most certainly is newsworthy.

No, only tax free status for one or the richest organisations in the world, the sanctity of the confessional from legal scrutiny and in Australia at least, seperate funding streams for catholic schools.

Add to this putting chaplains in public schools in OZ.

So what were you saying about the Catholic Church trying to be above the law?

In the US, it wasn't so long ago that conservatives were scared of a catholic president. They. Were worried that he'd be serving a foreign power (Ie the pope and the Vatican) above his own. You still see evangelicals trot this line out.

Nb, I'm catholic.

Edited October 4, 2014 by samran

[wwest5829]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

As a student of history, I would be very interested in seeing a photo of these full face coverings of Nuns in Australia as I have no recollection of ever having seen them in my study. Mind, not questioning, just wanting to learn. Can you post at least one photo of this?

"Before the Vatican II Council the trademark of Catholic nuns used to be their habit, consisting of flowing robes and veils that covered the entire body, leaving only the face and hands visible.

But the design of the habits of the many orders of nuns has varied over the ages. During various times in history it has been practices among some orders to have their nuns to also veil their faces. Today this tradition is very uncommon and only a few orders mandates this practice.

Most of the times the nuns used veils similar to the burqa used by some Muslim women." https://www.flickr.com/photos/23168191@N00/sets/72157601647382234/

Thank you for replying. I visited the Flickr website with the photos. I do see that some denominations used a full covering. Apologize for being limited by my cultural experience, although I was around from before Vatican II. As I said, I have not been familiar with the Nun's Habit. In part due to this, I cannot agree with, " most of the time nuns used veils similar to the burqa...". I'll keep looking but thus far I am getting the impression that this was an exception in some denominations rather than used widely in Christianity. I deal with this as an academic exercise not arguing religious beliefs.