Looming Disaster

[JRingo]

Does everyone realize that Chiangmai sits on an earthquake fault line.

And that most of the city is built with concrete post and beam construction.

During earthquakes, these types of buildings are notorious for collapsing pancake

style.

If not total collapse, often the un-reinforced masonry infill walls tumble and crush

the residents.

How much concrete is over your head?

[ThaiPauly]

I am mostly sleeping in a tent these days to avoid such a disaster befalling me

[meadish_sweetball]

You are indeed correct JRingo. That's why I spend my time on the top floor.

PS. One of the world's most densely populated areas in Southern California is also waiting for the big one. I guess we people are either very stupid, or eternal optimists. DS.

[Maejo Man]

This only just an hour or so's flight away. Maybe we should head for the hills

Yunnan quake kills 19, injures 100

Beijing (dpa) - An earthquake measuring 5.1 on the Richter scale killed at least 19 people and injured more than 100 Saturday in the southwestern Chinese province of Yunnan, the government said.

The earthquake sparked landslides and rockfalls, damaging hundreds of homes in Yunnan's mountainous Yanjin county as it struck at 9:10 am (0110 GMT) on Saturday, the provincial seismological bureau said.

bangkok post today

[sendbaht]

I hope you pitch the tent away from the wall around your home Thaipauly. Best house in the neighborhood I'd say mate, now a tent next to the pool. Haaaaa such a life.

[ThaiPauly]

I hope you pitch the tent away from the wall around your home Thaipauly. Best house in the neighborhood I'd say mate, now a tent next to the pool. Haaaaa such a life.

[sabaijai]

Does everyone realize that Chiangmai sits on an earthquake fault line.

Yes, it's a commonly known fact here. Several earthquakes are recorded in Chiang Mai chronicles, including one that topped the superstructure of Wat Chedi Luang. A network of faults runs all the way west to Bagan, Myanmar, north to Yunnan and south into the Andaman Sea. Keep your health insurance up to date ...

[Hog Head]

I did a seismic design review when constructing my new house. Does not cost much more to do it right the first time.

[Donnyboy]

I did a seismic design review when constructing my new house. Does not cost much more to do it right the first time.

did it cost more in terms of materials and added construction as apposed to the conventinal Thai way etc? Is it essentially cross supports between posts?

[mumbojumbo]

If you are a quake freak, then this a good site. More US cus the raiting is lower there, but still a good site. Unbelievable how many a day, and the depth.?

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recent.../quakes_all.php

[Hog Head]

Foundation design was a large component of the engineering and cost. My background is geotechnical engineering, and I was not comfortable with seat of the pants spread footings. Concern was liquifaction, differential settlement, and bearing failure. I used 30 x 30 x 10m piles that increased the cost by about 0.5% This is really really cheap and worth the peace of mind.

Secondary concern was shear in the columns and walls. As you say cross bracing is one way to address this. Rebar in the walls is a good idea to prevent them from simply falling down. Quality control on concrete and steel is very important, and in fact I did not know there was "full strength" and Thai quality rebar - my workers were bitching over how difficult real rebar is to bend. Take concrete samples and submit them for testing so that the Contractor will not be tempted to skimp. If using precast floors, check the loading and end connections.

I used several other non-Thai methods that are code in most countries such as vented plumbing stacks and P traps on drains, grounded electrical system, GFI outlets, low E double glazing, insulation. Exterior walls are Cool Block brand polystyrene cored block, with a 50 mm air space between local brick interior walls.

Total cost with the engineering and extras was about 10%. A waste to some, but worth it to me.

[chownah]

Aside from the Chedi falling down has there been any reported structural damage to any buildings? ever? If there are such reports is it possible to tell what type of construction is was? All brick structures are the worst but I've never seen a building in Thailand that was all brick. Two story reinforced concrete post and beam (like Thai style building) structures that are properly reinforced are actually very safe in earthquakes. The structural members might sustain some damage in a very severe earthquake but it is very unlikely that they would collapse.

[JRingo]

Aside from the Chedi falling down has there been any reported structural damage to any buildings? ever? If there are such reports is it possible to tell what type of construction is was? All brick structures are the worst but I've never seen a building in Thailand that was all brick. Two story reinforced concrete post and beam (like Thai style building) structures that are properly reinforced are actually very safe in earthquakes. The structural members might sustain some damage in a very severe earthquake but it is very unlikely that they would collapse.

Hmmm...here is some post and beam construction:

http://www.air-worldwide.com/_public/NewsD...0035/Turkey.asp

[p1p]

We sustained some structural damage in an earthquake way back in the late '70s. A few big cracks and broken tiles with a new 2 inch step in part of the house.

[Hog Head]

Chownah

Part of the problem is the quality of the materials is questionable, quality control is usually non-existant, and the workmanship may be shoddy. One needs to keep a very keen eye on this, or hire your own Engineer to work for you, as the Contractor may have other intrests. Standard design is not the best and is easily rectified.

I would encourage anyone to have their architects or contractors design reviewed by an Engineer with an eye to structural issues and sesmic review. It really does not cost a lot to do it right.

One the other hand, if you live through it, just buy insurance. We are buying insurance for the new house today, and earthquake coverage is only 300 B per million/year. Not sure what this covers exactly and am about to find out.

We sustained some structural damage in an earthquake way back in the late '70s. A few big cracks and broken tiles with a new 2 inch step in part of the house.

[chownah]

Aside from the Chedi falling down has there been any reported structural damage to any buildings? ever? If there are such reports is it possible to tell what type of construction is was? All brick structures are the worst but I've never seen a building in Thailand that was all brick. Two story reinforced concrete post and beam (like Thai style building) structures that are properly reinforced are actually very safe in earthquakes. The structural members might sustain some damage in a very severe earthquake but it is very unlikely that they would collapse.

Hmmm...here is some post and beam construction:

http://www.air-worldwide.com/_public/NewsD...0035/Turkey.asp

JRingo,

It means nothing to me if you want to spread your paranoia and my sympathies go out to all those whe become entangled therein.....but please....if you reply to my posts please post something that is relevant to my post. The picture does not seem to be a two story Thai style post and beam construction...also right front and center in the picture is evidence that the beam to column connections are not properly reinforced even by Thai standards...so clearly your picture has nothing to do with my post.

Also, this thread is about Thailand...not Turkey....the severity of earthquakes in Turkey is much greater than Thailand. If you want to get really paranoid here is a fact.....it would be unbelievably expensive to build a building that would withstand the worst possible earthquake...it is virtually impossible.....OH NO....we're going to die!!!

Chownah

Edited July 26, 2006 by chownah

[chownah]

Chownah

Part of the problem is the quality of the materials is questionable, quality control is usually non-existant, and the workmanship may be shoddy. One needs to keep a very keen eye on this, or hire your own Engineer to work for you, as the Contractor may have other intrests. Standard design is not the best and is easily rectified.

I would encourage anyone to have their architects or contractors design reviewed by an Engineer with an eye to structural issues and sesmic review. It really does not cost a lot to do it right.

One the other hand, if you live through it, just buy insurance. We are buying insurance for the new house today, and earthquake coverage is only 300 B per million/year. Not sure what this covers exactly and am about to find out.

We sustained some structural damage in an earthquake way back in the late '70s. A few big cracks and broken tiles with a new 2 inch step in part of the house.

Hog Head,

Sure, if its convenient then might as well design for earthquakes...but in my opinion it is not needed. Of course doing whatever you can do assure that your home is constructed properly and with quality materials is always a good idea....regardless of earthshakes.

Chownah

To All,

Can anyone document a death in Chiangmai from an earthquake?.....or even a serious injury? P1p's experience is about what I would expect for an earthquake's effect on a two story properly reinforced concrete post and beam residence.

Chownah

[The Dan Sai Kid]

I had 3 final year geology students in a class at the end of last year and they said that Chiang Mai is a very, very low risk for a major earthquake. It was something to do with the kind of plates that CM is on.

When I suggested a major earthquake in Chiang Mai, they said it was near impossible.

[chownah]

If you are building a house or will be building a house soon and you want to do something to help to make your building more resistant to earthquakes and you for one reason or another don't get an engineer to do an earthquake resistant design....then here is something you can do that is an accepted engineering practice that will significantly strengthen your concrete columns (cement posts) so that they resist collapsing:

The reinforcement steel for a column consists of verticle steel rebars (there are usually either 4, 6, or 8 of these per column) and square pieces of rebar that go around the verticle members and sort of hold them together into a bundle. These square pieces of rebar are tied around the verticles about every 20 cm's starting at the bottom and extending to the top. If you want to give extra protection against column collapse durilng an earthquake then place extras of these squares...place them every 5 cm's instead of the 20 cm's.

Here's how it works. When usual design is used the common collapse mechanism for a column is that at some place in the column the concrete will shatter and the pieces of broken concrete will fall away (spalling) allowing the verticle rebars to bend since they are unsupported and thus the top part of the column is no longer restrained in movement and it can move vertically, laterally, or rotationally without encumberance leading to collapse. If the extra squares of rebar are used so that they are 5 cm' apart...then when the concrete in the column shatters (it will still shatter in a strong earthquake) the pieces will not fall away...the extra rebar creates a cage and most of the concrete pieces will be held (restrained) inside the cage of rebar at the interior of the column thus giving enough support so that the rebar can maintain its position and continue to restrain the movement of the upper half of the column....even though some movement will occur total collapse will be avoided....unless of course the magnitude of the earthquake imparts enough energy to the upper half of the column that even this connection is broken. Using the extra rebar to restrain the broken pieces of concrete is similar to the action of a gabion...(google it).

Chownah

P.S. In actual practice, when building a highway bridge column to resist seismic collapse, instead of using alot of pieces of rebar closely spaced they use a long piece of rebar that is wrapped around the verticle steel like a spiral...its stronger this way and at least for round columns it is easier and faster to construct.

Chownah

[JRingo]

If you are building a house or will be building a house soon and you want to do something to help to make your building more resistant to earthquakes and you for one reason or another don't get an engineer to do an earthquake resistant design....then here is something you can do that is an accepted engineering practice that will significantly strengthen your concrete columns (cement posts) so that they resist collapsing:

The reinforcement steel for a column consists of verticle steel rebars (there are usually either 4, 6, or 8 of these per column) and square pieces of rebar that go around the verticle members and sort of hold them together into a bundle. These square pieces of rebar are tied around the verticles about every 20 cm's starting at the bottom and extending to the top. If you want to give extra protection against column collapse durilng an earthquake then place extras of these squares...place them every 5 cm's instead of the 20 cm's.

Here's how it works. When usual design is used the common collapse mechanism for a column is that at some place in the column the concrete will shatter and the pieces of broken concrete will fall away (spalling) allowing the verticle rebars to bend since they are unsupported and thus the top part of the column is no longer restrained in movement and it can move vertically, laterally, or rotationally without encumberance leading to collapse. If the extra squares of rebar are used so that they are 5 cm' apart...then when the concrete in the column shatters (it will still shatter in a strong earthquake) the pieces will not fall away...the extra rebar creates a cage and most of the concrete pieces will be held (restrained) inside the cage of rebar at the interior of the column thus giving enough support so that the rebar can maintain its position and continue to restrain the movement of the upper half of the column....even though some movement will occur total collapse will be avoided....unless of course the magnitude of the earthquake imparts enough energy to the upper half of the column that even this connection is broken. Using the extra rebar to restrain the broken pieces of concrete is similar to the action of a gabion...(google it).

Chownah

P.S. In actual practice, when building a highway bridge column to resist seismic collapse, instead of using alot of pieces of rebar closely spaced they use a long piece of rebar that is wrapped around the verticle steel like a spiral...its stronger this way and at least for round columns it is easier and faster to construct.

Chownah

Yes, very good.

However, here are some problems in Chiangmai.

Much of the steel used in construction is low grade.

Much of the steel is undersized.

Most of the concrete is not tested.

Most of the concrete is hand poured meaning there are cold joints everywhere in structural columns.

Most of the buildings in Chiang mai pre-date any engineering concerns for earthquakes.

Most jobs are not inspected and if they are it is "get around" problems.

Chiangmai does indeed sit on active fault line. It goes from Chaingmai to MaeSai.

The area is littered with broken faults, just look at the recent quake in Yunnan.

Yes I know Thailand is not Turkey, but the same conditions exist for a major disaster.

[BigMac]

Chiang Mai City has been around for 700 years or more and the most damage that it has incurred over the years is that done by the raiding Burmese many many years ago.

Earth tremors occur from time to time. No-one has died as a result of these.

So JRingo bugger off with your doomsday predictions. Why don't you go somewhere where serious earthquakes occur and start spreading your crap there?

Edited July 26, 2006 by BigMac

[JRingo]

Chiang Mai City has been around for 700 years or more and the most damage that it has incurred over the years is that done by the raiding Burmese many many years ago.

Earth tremors occur from time to time. No-one has died as a result of these.

So JRingo bugger off with your doomsday predictions. Why don't you go somewhere where serious earthquakes occur and start spreading your crap there?

NEWS

Chiang Mai Mail June 2, 2006

Getting ready for the earthquakes

Nopniwat Krailerg

To prepare the citizens of Chiang Mai, to be prepared for all disasters, is a mammoth task. However, the Joint Civil Affairs, in association with the Ministries of Defense and the Interior are attempting to do this with training courses to be held between May 31 and June 2, 2006 to learn about how to manage a disaster headquarters (CPX); followed by fieldwork training (FTX) on June 5-7, 2006.

The training will simulate an earthquake and collapsed buildings, taking place firstly in the city of Chiang Mai; and then outside of Chiang Mai when the province will call for help from central HQ to deal with the disaster.

The training will take the form of rehearsing certain techniques, rescue demonstrations and medical attention being swiftly applied to those rescued by the medical teams of Chiang Mai province, region and central administration. The purpose of this training is to get ready to confront any situation and to coordinate the actions of local organizations and central administration.

The training courses will be held in Chiang Mai Municipality Stadium and the Physical Institute of Chiang Mai will be set up as administration HQ.

There will also be demonstrations by the municipal Fire Department of how to extinguish fires, as well as how to locate victims buried under fallen buildings.

[Ajarn]

Chiang Mai City has been around for 700 years or more and the most damage that it has incurred over the years is that done by the raiding Burmese many many years ago.

Earth tremors occur from time to time. No-one has died as a result of these.

So JRingo bugger off with your doomsday predictions. Why don't you go somewhere where serious earthquakes occur and start spreading your crap there?

NEWS

Chiang Mai Mail June 2, 2006

Getting ready for the earthquakes

Nopniwat Krailerg

To prepare the citizens of Chiang Mai, to be prepared for all disasters, is a mammoth task. However, the Joint Civil Affairs, in association with the Ministries of Defense and the Interior are attempting to do this with training courses to be held between May 31 and June 2, 2006 to learn about how to manage a disaster headquarters (CPX); followed by fieldwork training (FTX) on June 5-7, 2006.

The training will simulate an earthquake and collapsed buildings, taking place firstly in the city of Chiang Mai; and then outside of Chiang Mai when the province will call for help from central HQ to deal with the disaster.

The training will take the form of rehearsing certain techniques, rescue demonstrations and medical attention being swiftly applied to those rescued by the medical teams of Chiang Mai province, region and central administration. The purpose of this training is to get ready to confront any situation and to coordinate the actions of local organizations and central administration.

The training courses will be held in Chiang Mai Municipality Stadium and the Physical Institute of Chiang Mai will be set up as administration HQ.

There will also be demonstrations by the municipal Fire Department of how to extinguish fires, as well as how to locate victims buried under fallen buildings.

Just stuff to make some people less paranoid about living here... One must wonder when it is going to happen, since it hasn't happened in at least 700 years...

Edited July 27, 2006 by Ajarn

[JRingo]

Chiang Mai City has been around for 700 years or more and the most damage that it has incurred over the years is that done by the raiding Burmese many many years ago.

Earth tremors occur from time to time. No-one has died as a result of these.

So JRingo bugger off with your doomsday predictions. Why don't you go somewhere where serious earthquakes occur and start spreading your crap there?

NEWS

Chiang Mai Mail June 2, 2006

Getting ready for the earthquakes

Nopniwat Krailerg

To prepare the citizens of Chiang Mai, to be prepared for all disasters, is a mammoth task. However, the Joint Civil Affairs, in association with the Ministries of Defense and the Interior are attempting to do this with training courses to be held between May 31 and June 2, 2006 to learn about how to manage a disaster headquarters (CPX); followed by fieldwork training (FTX) on June 5-7, 2006.

The training will simulate an earthquake and collapsed buildings, taking place firstly in the city of Chiang Mai; and then outside of Chiang Mai when the province will call for help from central HQ to deal with the disaster.

The training will take the form of rehearsing certain techniques, rescue demonstrations and medical attention being swiftly applied to those rescued by the medical teams of Chiang Mai province, region and central administration. The purpose of this training is to get ready to confront any situation and to coordinate the actions of local organizations and central administration.

The training courses will be held in Chiang Mai Municipality Stadium and the Physical Institute of Chiang Mai will be set up as administration HQ.

There will also be demonstrations by the municipal Fire Department of how to extinguish fires, as well as how to locate victims buried under fallen buildings.

Just stuff to make some people less paranoid about living here... One must wonder when it is going to happen, since it hasn't happened in at least 700 years...

Well, I think that was the attitude here as well:

http://www.air-worldwide.com/_public/NewsD...0035/Turkey.asp

How would you like to buried under that concrete?

This is a good example of what happens to unreinforced masonry even in a moderate quake.

See the brickwork under the post and beam structure that has failed?

Well, this building method is all over Chaingmai and if you happen to be sleeping under

one of those unreinforced in-fill walls when it collaspes...well good night Irene.

This is also common in houses, single story as well as two story in Chiangmai.

[JRingo]

Many of Izmit's buildings were falsely believed to be earthquake resistant. Shoddy construction and materials led to their collapse in the quake.

[Gonzo the Face]

Reading all of this surely can make one wonder.

One thing is for certain and that is, "If you live long enough IT will get you".

Now "it" may be the next ice age, or it may be Global Warming roasting your cookies, and chances are much greater, if you live around here, that you will be hit by a drug crazed motorcycle driver and be killed.

I think it should be inheirant on each individual one of us to view your surroundings and determine if it is safe enough, in your own belief to provide and protect for your own family, for a comfortable and reasonable life style. If it isn't , don't come here, or don't stay here, go somewhere else where you do feel comfortable.

That is your job as a responsible wife, husband or family head.

One place has too many murders; another too great a danger of flood; maybe another too great a chance of military or terrorist action.

We've all got to be someplace, but generally we have the ability to choose, and one cannot provide protection against every danger, just prudent, common sense.

I choose Chiang Mai, because I am entirely comfortable here. My idea is to live my life, not spend all my life trying to protect against all perils, and never get a chance to experience what life is all about.

But it comes to me from a very reliable source. " Living will surely cause death"

Gonzo

Edited July 27, 2006 by Gonzo the Face

[JRingo]

Reading all of this surely can make one wonder.

One thing is for certain and that is, "If you live long enough IT will get you".

Now "it" may be the next ice age, or it may be Global Warming roasting your cookies, and chances are much greater, if you live around here, that you will be hit by a drug crazed motorcycle driver and be killed.

I think it should be inheirant on each individual one of us to view your surroundings and determine if it is safe enough, in your own belief to provide and protect for your own family, for a comfortable and reasonably life style. If it isn't , don't come here, or don't stay here, go somewhere else where you do feel comfortable.

That is your job as a responsible wife, husband or family head.

One place has too many murders; another too great a danger of flood; maybe another too great a chance of military or terrorist action.

We've all got to be someplace, but generally we have the ability to choose, and one cannot provide protection against every danger, just prudent, common sense.

I choose Chiang Mai, because I am entirely comfortable here. My idea is to live my life, not spend all my life trying to protect against all perils, and never get a chance to experience what life is all about.

But it comes to me from a very reliable source. " Living will surely cause death"

Gonzo

Absolutely, I agree...but also choose not to sleep under a couple hundred tons of unreinforced concrete. Geez, what a way to go.

[RamdomChances]

I think they should build houses in Ching Mai out of jelly, then when there is an earthquake they would just wobble

[Maejo Man]

NEWS

Chiang Mai Mail June 2, 2006

Getting ready for the earthquakes

The taxpayer's baht would be far better served in training for flood disaster control, and how to react quickly to the dangers of "flash flooding" or establishing trauma units for road accidents.

The last recorded earthquake in Chiangmai occured in 1545 with noteable damage to Wat Chedi Luang and little else.

I see no reason to adopt the "Chicken Little" attitude on earthquakes in Chiangmai!

[chownah]

NEWS

Chiang Mai Mail June 2, 2006

Getting ready for the earthquakes

Nopniwat Krailerg

To prepare the citizens of Chiang Mai, to be prepared for all disasters, is a mammoth task. However, the Joint Civil Affairs, in association with the Ministries of Defense and the Interior are attempting to do this with training courses to be held between May 31 and June 2, 2006 to learn about how to manage a disaster headquarters (CPX); followed by fieldwork training (FTX) on June 5-7, 2006.

The training will simulate an earthquake and collapsed buildings, taking place firstly in the city of Chiang Mai; and then outside of Chiang Mai when the province will call for help from central HQ to deal with the disaster.

..........."

They were actually preparing for an aerial and artillery assault of Chaing Mai....Thailand does have a rather militaristic neighbor who could create such a mess in under an hour....so....even if you build your buildings to the strictest seismic building code you can never sleep well at night knowing that you could come under military attack at any time and there is absolutely nothing in place stopping this from happening.

Sweet Dreams,

Chownah