Police says its Koh Tao tourist murder case file solid for prosecution

[jdinasia]

Slowly but surely we are moving towards the general acceptance of the guilt of the two Burmese as a certainty.

So over 90% of our expatriate community will have to decide a public apology or be silent forever.

I await the moment with relish.

But finally, I'll bet they will not do neither the one nor the other...

We are not moving toward public acceptance of this case, we are not moving toward a third party verification, and that is what most expatriates want.

How can you await anything with relish? Thais don't use relish, or horseradish, or brown mustard or......HP sauce or.......

The whole fiasco is fishy smelling, like a blue diamond, or stale red bull, or month old somtam.

What most expats want is irrelevant.

[jdinasia]

Slowly but surely we are moving towards the general acceptance of the guilt of the two Burmese as a certainty.

So over 90% of our expatriate community will have to decide a public apology or be silent forever.

I await the moment with relish.

But finally, I'll bet they will not do neither the one nor the other...

We are not moving toward public acceptance of this case, we are not moving toward a third party verification, and that is what most expatriates want.

How can you await anything with relish? Thais don't use relish, or horseradish, or brown mustard or......HP sauce or.......

The whole fiasco is fishy smelling, like a blue diamond, or stale red bull, or month old somtam.

If the BIB where smart considering all the controversy they would invite representatives of the British police force to come to Thailand to review the case to date this has not been put on the table, now all one can say is why ?

Is it a face thing ?...We don't want foreigners involved ?

or there has been a cover up and they are sh*t scared outside involvement is going open the can worms

Or the simple fact that they were not needed and have no jurisdiction?

[Soutpeel]

Or the simple fact that they were not needed and have no jurisdiction?

Where did I infer they had jurisdiction ?....I didn't and they don't

The fact is considering all the conspiracy theories and "headlines" on this one could suggest than now more than ever they are needed and oversight might be good idea, as it will get an independent assessment and put a lot of questions to bed, so it could benefit the RTP, it would be smart PR move on their part.

[jaiyen17]

Well, after my recent google search, (this article is 2 hrs old) the case may still have lots of holes....but with these two telling their counsel they were "very drunk" and still saying "they committed the murders" (if this is indeed true) the rest of the evidence may not make much difference.

http://www.dvb.no/news/koh-tao-murderers-were-tortured-says-burmese-embassy-lawyer-burma-myanmar/44781

Lawyer Aung Myo Thant said the pair, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, both 21, from the Arakanese town of Kyaukphyu, told a Burmese embassy legal team they had murdered English tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller by bludgeoning them to death with a hoe on 15 September. However, he said, their stories were “somewhat inconsistent” and “their faces portrayed fear”.
“From what we have learned, there are inconsistencies with both the forensic report and evidence provided in the case,” said Aung Myo Thant.

“The defendants kept repeating that they were very drunk that night. Based on what we have been told, it seems to us like this case is a set-up and not based on hard facts.”

Speaking to DVB on Monday, Kyaw Thaung, a representative of the Myanmar Association in Thailand, who attended the interview with the defendants, said, “We went to the prison [on Koh Samui] and were allowed to meet with the two freely. They confessed to committing the crime under the influence of alcohol. When asked for further details, they said they bashed the victims two or three times each with the blunt end of a hoe, but not with the sharp end. They said they did it because they were drunk but did not intend to kill the couple.

Htun Aye said the Burmese legal team were denied permission to talk to a third detainee, Maung Maung

[jdinasia]

Or the simple fact that they were not needed and have no jurisdiction?

Where did I infer they had jurisdiction ?....I didn't and they don't

The fact is considering all the conspiracy theories and "headlines" on this one could suggest than now more than ever they are needed and oversight might be good idea, as it will get an independent assessment and put a lot of questions to bed, so it could benefit the RTP, it would be smart PR move on their part.

My reply was not to you , it was to hisseho.

Edit: smart PR is whatever works for Thai people. If the RTP can point to the acceptance of the investigation by the UK FO... All will be fine here.

[bruceybonus]

Well, after my recent google search, (this article is 2 hrs old) the case may still have lots of holes....but with these two telling their counsel they were "very drunk" and still saying "they committed the murders" (if this is indeed true) the rest of the evidence may not make much difference.

http://www.dvb.no/news/koh-tao-murderers-were-tortured-says-burmese-embassy-lawyer-burma-myanmar/44781

Lawyer Aung Myo Thant said the pair, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, both 21, from the Arakanese town of Kyaukphyu, told a Burmese embassy legal team they had murdered English tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller by bludgeoning them to death with a hoe on 15 September. However, he said, their stories were “somewhat inconsistent” and “their faces portrayed fear”.

“From what we have learned, there are inconsistencies with both the forensic report and evidence provided in the case,” said Aung Myo Thant.

“The defendants kept repeating that they were very drunk that night. Based on what we have been told, it seems to us like this case is a set-up and not based on hard facts.”

Speaking to DVB on Monday, Kyaw Thaung, a representative of the Myanmar Association in Thailand, who attended the interview with the defendants, said, “We went to the prison [on Koh Samui] and were allowed to meet with the two freely. They confessed to committing the crime under the influence of alcohol. When asked for further details, they said they bashed the victims two or three times each with the blunt end of a hoe, but not with the sharp end. They said they did it because they were drunk but did not intend to kill the couple.

Htun Aye said the Burmese legal team were denied permission to talk to a third detainee, Maung Maung

The mind boggles! What a crock of shit!

[templedog]

I guess we all kinda jumped on this. Perhaps it was the Burmese. True Thais try to blame them for many things unfairly, and in many cases murders of foreigners has not be prosecuted fairly. But it doesnt stand to reason that Burmese never murder tourists. Its pretty far fetched that the police could force 2 innocent people to confess in this case when it can carry death penalty. Its an international affair with NGOs, International media and Burmese embassy involved. Just how influential could some "mafia" or "well connected" bar owning family on a tiny island could be?

Im still confused about the foreign busker guy.. could just be hes totally paranoid and on drugs? Or an idiot trying to make a sensationalist story to get hits to his blog or whatever

I agree with you , even the big headman on this tiny island can't control RTP outside his own territory . In Bangkok ,the P.M and politicians running this country want to catch the real killers, it doesnt matter if he is a wealthy thai person or a poor Burmese really.

I can understand the mafia on the island can control the local police but not outsiders who's been in charge of most of the investigation .

.

It seems you either don't understand Thai culture, or conveniently ignore it.

Your posts have droned on and on, Balo, defending incompetence and corruption that is at a level that can only be described as evil.

It's not the influence of the local mafia, it's the influence of the local senior police.

It's also, much more so, about Face. At a national level.

Never seen a post like that which is so ignorant of how Thailand function, in all walks of life not just in this instance. Maybe a trip to the law courts might help.

Why do some invest so much emotional energy in denying what is evident almost everyday in Thailand.

This is just on a grander scale.

The people are nice it's the institutions and the hierarchical nature that is wrong. Most Thais I know don't even find other Thais as a whole trust worthy.

Plus all the other cases that also happened to be migrant workers .

At this rate it would appear to be more dangerous to visit Burma !

There is way more to consider than "some local mafia" guy on a little island. It is about "Thai image", as the RTP have said over and over again. Does anyone here think that the local police are NOT in cahoots with the local mafia, that is how they make the bulk of their income. If the mafia guys go down, you can be sure they take the po-po with them. AND, that will make the whole thing unravel and be an even bigger loss of face, for local police and national police, and it would ruin the Thai image even more.. Possibly, losing billions in tourist dollars...or pounds....or baht. Just speculation based on the history of past events and actual experiences with the police here, making my speculation a hellava lot more believable than that police investigation.

[bruceybonus]

Welcome to "open season" on all westerners!!

[Phuketboy]

I think the consular team especially if they bring in their own investigative lawyers that are not Thai, will dig deeper than any Thai lawyer would. I have heard and on one occasion seen that the Thai lawyers are more mediators than actual lawyers. They tend to mediate rather than fight and defend the person they are representing. That is not how a lawyer should work. These two victims of the RTP should be allowed outside council as well as both a Thai and foreign translator. I would not be trusting anyone Thai at the present time in this case.

[catweazle]

Not the first "solid" blast of diarrhea I have seen in Thailand, but certainly the one with the most pungent stench...

[jdinasia]

Welcome to "open season" on all westerners!!

Welcome to dramatic hyperbole by a fringe element of conspiracy theorists.

[bruceybonus]

Welcome to "open season" on all westerners!!

Welcome to dramatic hyperbole by a fringe element of conspiracy theorists.

let's see!

[bruceybonus]

Welcome to "open season" on all westerners!!

Welcome to dramatic hyperbole by a fringe element of conspiracy theorists.

let's see!

2 violent rapes in the 2 weeks after the incident. Danish and Russian. One of the perps said he couldn't control himself!

[Bleacher Bum East]

Well okay then. Should be no problem passing the evidence to the UK coroner for pier review.

Huh????

The evidence? That will not be handed over to anyone else. The defense may have a right to retesting it but the chain of custody will never include people outside the Thai justice system.

Actually, the UK coroner has a very important piece of evidence already.

They have David and Hannah's bodies, which in Hannah's case contains the DNA of the suspects, and in both cases contains evidence of what type of weapon inflicted the wounds, whether they had been drugged, etc.

Therefore, the defense lawyers could take their own DNA sample of the suspects, establish their own provable chain of custody through an independent third party, and send the samples to the UK for comparison with the DNA specimens found on Hannah's body---with the comparison to be done by either the official UK coroner or a highly credible independent lab. Then if the DNA samples did not match, they could use it as part of their defense. In any event, it would put to rest much of the speculation, one way or the other.

In addition, in determining cause of death, the coroner could provide an expert opinion regarding the nature of the wounds and the type of weapons that inflicted the wounds, and could provide a toxicology report on what relevant substances were found in David and Hannah's bodies (I'm not talking about testing them for recreational drugs, but for date rape drugs).

It would be hard to imagine why any good defense attorney would not request this, and why any of the government's involved would not approve and welcome it if they are really after the truth.

I'm not saying one way or another whether the confessions are valid, just what an option for helping establish the truth for all to agree on would be.

[bruceybonus]

Welcome to "open season" on all westerners!!

Welcome to dramatic hyperbole by a fringe element of conspiracy theorists.

Must be nice to live in your emotionless, unsympathetic world where everything is black and white!

[jdinasia]

Well okay then. Should be no problem passing the evidence to the UK coroner for pier review.

Huh????

The evidence? That will not be handed over to anyone else. The defense may have a right to retesting it but the chain of custody will never include people outside the Thai justice system.

Actually, the UK coroner has a very important piece of evidence already.

They have David and Hannah's bodies, which in Hannah's case contains the DNA of the suspects, and in both cases contains evidence of what type of weapon inflicted the wounds, whether they had been drugged, etc.

Therefore, the defense lawyers could take their own DNA sample of the suspects, establish their own provable chain of custody through an independent third party, and send the samples to the UK for comparison with the DNA specimens found on Hannah's body---with the comparison to be done by either the official UK coroner or a highly credible independent lab. Then if the DNA samples did not match, they could use it as part of their defense. In any event, it would put to rest much of the speculation, one way or the other.

In addition, in determining cause of death, the coroner could provide an expert opinion regarding the nature of the wounds and the type of weapons that inflicted the wounds, and could provide a toxicology report on what relevant substances were found in David and Hannah's bodies (I'm not talking about testing them for recreational drugs, but for date rape drugs).

It would be hard to imagine why any good defense attorney would not request this, and why any of the government's involved would not approve and welcome it if they are really after the truth.

I'm not saying one way or another whether the confessions are valid, just what an option for helping establish the truth for all to agree on would be.

No chain of custody is present for the bodies.

[jdinasia]

Welcome to "open season" on all westerners!!

Welcome to dramatic hyperbole by a fringe element of conspiracy theorists.

Must be nice to live in your emotionless, unsympathetic world where everything is black and white!

Just because I don't participate in hyperbolic conspiracy theories does not make my world either emotionless nor unsympathetic.

[jdinasia]

Welcome to "open season" on all westerners!!

Welcome to dramatic hyperbole by a fringe element of conspiracy theorists.

let's see!

2 violent rapes in the 2 weeks after the incident. Danish and Russian. One of the perps said he couldn't control himself!

And your point is?

[kkup]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Well okay then. Should be no problem passing the evidence to the UK coroner for pier review.

Huh????

The evidence? That will not be handed over to anyone else. The defense may have a right to retesting it but the chain of custody will never include people outside the Thai justice system.

Actually, the UK coroner has a very important piece of evidence already.

They have David and Hannah's bodies, which in Hannah's case contains the DNA of the suspects, and in both cases contains evidence of what type of weapon inflicted the wounds, whether they had been drugged, etc.

Therefore, the defense lawyers could take their own DNA sample of the suspects, establish their own provable chain of custody through an independent third party, and send the samples to the UK for comparison with the DNA specimens found on Hannah's body---with the comparison to be done by either the official UK coroner or a highly credible independent lab. Then if the DNA samples did not match, they could use it as part of their defense. In any event, it would put to rest much of the speculation, one way or the other.

In addition, in determining cause of death, the coroner could provide an expert opinion regarding the nature of the wounds and the type of weapons that inflicted the wounds, and could provide a toxicology report on what relevant substances were found in David and Hannah's bodies (I'm not talking about testing them for recreational drugs, but for date rape drugs).

It would be hard to imagine why any good defense attorney would not request this, and why any of the government's involved would not approve and welcome it if they are really after the truth.

I'm not saying one way or another whether the confessions are valid, just what an option for helping establish the truth for all to agree on would be.

Exactly.. The UK government doesn't have to do anything.. The attorney can request all DNA samples and get everything re tested independently.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

Welcome to "open season" on all westerners!!

Welcome to dramatic hyperbole by a fringe element of conspiracy theorists.

let's see!

2 violent rapes in the 2 weeks after the incident. Danish and Russian. One of the perps said he couldn't control himself!

No 3 rapes, there was a Spanish girl raped in a Bangkok Taxi also (not to mention 2 westerners drifting up on Phuket and Koh Samet beaches, did I miss any? )

[HaleySabai]

I dont Think the UK police or government has requested the files and I doubt they will. The ambassador here in thailand is confident the police is doing there work properly

Your ambassador has NO balls.

[Banzai99]

So, how many TV CSI Armchair Detectives and Special Agents that have been slagging off the Thais from day one are willing to go to protest outside a court of law against this travesty of justice ?

Thought so.

[bruceybonus]

Welcome to "open season" on all westerners!!

Welcome to dramatic hyperbole by a fringe element of conspiracy theorists.

Must be nice to live in your emotionless, unsympathetic world where everything is black and white!

Just because I don't participate in hyperbolic conspiracy theories does not make my world either emotionless nor unsympathetic.

A conspiracy theory has no substance whatsoever. A conspiracy casts doubts using evidence & opinion.

Lots of cases in law use expert witnesses opinion to prove innocence/guilt.

Let's get away from all the black/white. Do you honestly believe this case beyond all reasonable doubt?? Please answer honestly

[SICHONSTEVE]

Well okay then. Should be no problem passing the evidence to the UK coroner for pier review.

I dont Think the UK police or government has requested the files and I doubt they will. The ambassador here in thailand is confident the police is doing there work properly

...............and so say a small minority of us!!

It is looking more and more that We will be proved right and that you lot (the majority of amateur sleuths) are going to be disappointed.

The human right's team were happy that everything has been conducted properly so out go all of the mistreatment conspiracies and scapegoat theories.

They have AGAIN admitted that they were the killers when they had the opportunity to say that it was forced out of them through torture.

Then there is the semen DNA results, the police wouldn't dare lie about or tamper with such a relevant and poignant aspect of the evidence that can be checked so easily.

This phone debacle is nothing but a red herring that has been jumped upon and muddied the waters and created confusion after the police muddled the evidence put forward about the two phones!!

Are you all ready to jump ship now and hang-em-high??/

[bigjules007]

So, how many TV CSI Armchair Detectives and Special Agents that have been slagging off the Thais from day one are willing to go to protest outside a court of law against this travesty of justice ?

Thought so.

Are you totally gormless?

You just dont get this do you!

It is people like you who are slagging off the Thais by going along with this blatant deception and thinking that the Thai people are stupid enough to believe this farcical display of police work.

We are disputing inconsistencies in this shambolic police investigation.

Like ive said in previous posts, its not the first time that the RTP have performed such shenanigans so why are you sure that this is any different?

Read, research use your own brain and then come back and post.

[Bleacher Bum East]

Well okay then. Should be no problem passing the evidence to the UK coroner for pier review.

Huh????

The evidence? That will not be handed over to anyone else. The defense may have a right to retesting it but the chain of custody will never include people outside the Thai justice system.

Actually, the UK coroner has a very important piece of evidence already.

They have David and Hannah's bodies, which in Hannah's case contains the DNA of the suspects, and in both cases contains evidence of what type of weapon inflicted the wounds, whether they had been drugged, etc.

Therefore, the defense lawyers could take their own DNA sample of the suspects, establish their own provable chain of custody through an independent third party, and send the samples to the UK for comparison with the DNA specimens found on Hannah's body---with the comparison to be done by either the official UK coroner or a highly credible independent lab. Then if the DNA samples did not match, they could use it as part of their defense. In any event, it would put to rest much of the speculation, one way or the other.

In addition, in determining cause of death, the coroner could provide an expert opinion regarding the nature of the wounds and the type of weapons that inflicted the wounds, and could provide a toxicology report on what relevant substances were found in David and Hannah's bodies (I'm not talking about testing them for recreational drugs, but for date rape drugs).

It would be hard to imagine why any good defense attorney would not request this, and why any of the government's involved would not approve and welcome it if they are really after the truth.

I'm not saying one way or another whether the confessions are valid, just what an option for helping establish the truth for all to agree on would be.

No chain of custody is present for the bodies.

I don't believe that is true.

Certainly the Thai police and prosecutors would claim there is a chain of custody with respect to Hannah and David’s bodies all the way up until the time they were handed over to the UK authorities (I presume this is what happened) to be shipped back to England (because if there was no such chain of custody, the Thai authorities would undermine much of their own evidence). And it should not be difficult to establish a credible chain of custody from the time the UK authorities took possession of the bodies and delivered them to the coroner. So assuming everything was kosher on the Thai end, it should not be difficult at all to establish a credible chain of custody of the bodies up until the present time. Maybe this is not an official "always within the Thai police's control" chain of custody, but it is a very credible one that a defense team can use--if the Thai prosecutors want to challenge it they can do so, but I don't think this would be a successful line of attack since the British authorities controlled the bodies at every instance the Thai authorities did not.

The UK coroner can lift all the external DNA found on Hannah’s body, which presumably has already been done. Then the coroner can compare it with new samples of the suspects’ DNA provided by the defense. If they match, then that is very strong evidence in favor of guilt. If they don’t match, then it will appear the confessions are in doubt—especially if the UK coroner finds the DNA of two persons other than the Arakanese suspects on the body.

In any event, it is all about credibility—both in court and in the eyes of public opinion (and both do matter). And it seems that this type of test in the UK is the best way to establish whether the confessions are credible. Why would anyone object to that?

BTW, if the concepts of preservation of evidence and chain of custody were to be applied in the sense found in courts in many countries, then much of the evidence found at the crime scene would be either inadmissible or highly suspect, including the DNA samples taken from Hannah’s body, because of the way the crime scene was trampled (including by a man who was once a suspect). That’s not a judgment about which way the case should swing, it’s just a fact of the law of Evidence in most Western countries (I know this is the case in the U.S., and believe it is true in the UK).

[jdinasia]

Welcome to "open season" on all westerners!!

Welcome to dramatic hyperbole by a fringe element of conspiracy theorists.

Must be nice to live in your emotionless, unsympathetic world where everything is black and white!

Just because I don't participate in hyperbolic conspiracy theories does not make my world either emotionless nor unsympathetic.

A conspiracy theory has no substance whatsoever. A conspiracy casts doubts using evidence & opinion.

Lots of cases in law use expert witnesses opinion to prove innocence/guilt.

Let's get away from all the black/white. Do you honestly believe this case beyond all reasonable doubt?? Please answer honestly

Not an issue I have to consider. Neither you nor I have seen all of the evidence and the court of public opinion isn't particularly relevant. This is for a Thai court to decide.

[jdinasia]

Well okay then. Should be no problem passing the evidence to the UK coroner for pier review.

Huh????

The evidence? That will not be handed over to anyone else. The defense may have a right to retesting it but the chain of custody will never include people outside the Thai justice system.

Actually, the UK coroner has a very important piece of evidence already.

They have David and Hannah's bodies, which in Hannah's case contains the DNA of the suspects, and in both cases contains evidence of what type of weapon inflicted the wounds, whether they had been drugged, etc.

Therefore, the defense lawyers could take their own DNA sample of the suspects, establish their own provable chain of custody through an independent third party, and send the samples to the UK for comparison with the DNA specimens found on Hannah's body---with the comparison to be done by either the official UK coroner or a highly credible independent lab. Then if the DNA samples did not match, they could use it as part of their defense. In any event, it would put to rest much of the speculation, one way or the other.

In addition, in determining cause of death, the coroner could provide an expert opinion regarding the nature of the wounds and the type of weapons that inflicted the wounds, and could provide a toxicology report on what relevant substances were found in David and Hannah's bodies (I'm not talking about testing them for recreational drugs, but for date rape drugs).

It would be hard to imagine why any good defense attorney would not request this, and why any of the government's involved would not approve and welcome it if they are really after the truth.

I'm not saying one way or another whether the confessions are valid, just what an option for helping establish the truth for all to agree on would be.

No chain of custody is present for the bodies.

I don't believe that is true.

Certainly the Thai police and prosecutors would claim there is a chain of custody with respect to Hannah and David’s bodies all the way up until the time they were handed over to the UK authorities (I presume this is what happened) to be shipped back to England (because if there was no such chain of custody, the Thai authorities would undermine much of their own evidence). And it should not be difficult to establish a credible chain of custody from the time the UK authorities took possession of the bodies and delivered them to the coroner. So assuming everything was kosher on the Thai end, it should not be difficult at all to establish a credible chain of custody of the bodies up until the present time. Maybe this is not an official "always within the Thai police's control" chain of custody, but it is a very credible one that a defense team can use--if the Thai prosecutors want to challenge it they can do so, but I don't think this would be a successful line of attack since the British authorities controlled the bodies at every instance the Thai authorities did not.

The UK coroner can lift all the external DNA found on Hannah’s body, which presumably has already been done. Then the coroner can compare it with new samples of the suspects’ DNA provided by the defense. If they match, then that is very strong evidence in favor of guilt. If they don’t match, then it will appear the confessions are in doubt—especially if the UK coroner finds the DNA of two persons other than the Arakanese suspects on the body.

In any event, it is all about credibility—both in court and in the eyes of public opinion (and both do matter). And it seems that this type of test in the UK is the best way to establish whether the confessions are credible. Why would anyone object to that?

BTW, if the concepts of preservation of evidence and chain of custody were to be applied in the sense found in courts in many countries, then much of the evidence found at the crime scene would be either inadmissible or highly suspect, including the DNA samples taken from Hannah’s body, because of the way the crime scene was trampled (including by a man who was once a suspect). That’s not a judgment about which way the case should swing, it’s just a fact of the law of Evidence in most Western countries (I know this is the case in the U.S., and believe it is true in the UK).

What you believe is irrelevant. As soon as the bodies left custody of the RTP / THAI authorities there is no chain of custody.

[bertty]

Why wernt the team allowed to visit the 3rd person being held ?

He has not yet been fully brain washed into admitting it, and has far to many bruises in places that can be seen.

[Banzai99]

So, how many TV CSI Armchair Detectives and Special Agents that have been slagging off the Thais from day one are willing to go to protest outside a court of law against this travesty of justice ?

Thought so.

Are you totally gormless?

You just dont get this do you!

It is people like you who are slagging off the Thais by going along with this blatant deception and thinking that the Thai people are stupid enough to believe this farcical display of police work.

We are disputing inconsistencies in this shambolic police investigation.

Like ive said in previous posts, its not the first time that the RTP have performed such shenanigans so why are you sure that this is any different?

Read, research use your own brain and then come back and post.

So, instead of spouting off totally useless posts on an anonymous forum, have some conviction, get yourselves together, form a protest group and go and protest.

Go and do something constructive, instead of pointless whining and whinging, do something tangible for once !!