It is about time restaurants should change their habits.

[bkkcanuck8]

I have lived in both the UK and in the US and the culture is quite different even though they came from the same routes. English are more two-faced (similar to Japanese in some ways), while the Americans tend to be more direct.... (Canadians tend to fall somewhere in between). It has been 100s of years since they went their separate ways.

Do you mean all of the UK is two-faced to include the Scots or is it just the English that are two faced like the Japanese?

English, being a scottish descendant I don't associate Scotland with the UK

The English make up 80%+ of the UK anyways....

If a Scottish lass marries an Englishman (I know rare but .....) are their children only half two faced? What would you call them? Quarter faced or one faced?

Depends on the culture they brought up in..... they could just be called Canadian

[thailiketoo]

Do you mean all of the UK is two-faced to include the Scots or is it just the English that are two faced like the Japanese?

English, being a scottish descendant I don't associate Scotland with the UK

The English make up 80%+ of the UK anyways....

If a Scottish lass marries an Englishman (I know rare but .....) are their children only half two faced? What would you call them? Quarter faced or one faced?

Depends on the culture they brought up in..... they could just be called Canadian

You are an embarrassment to Canada. The English aren't two faced nor are the Japanese and that belief is held by no one in Canada other than yourself. Scotland is still part of the UK they just had a vote regardless of your silly ideas of geopolitical nonsense.

[bkkcanuck8]

You are an embarrassment to Canada. The English aren't two faced nor are the Japanese and that belief is held by no one in Canada other than yourself. Scotland is still part of the UK they just had a vote regardless of your silly ideas of geopolitical nonsense.

I might be an embarrassment to Canada.... but the terminology two-faced is actually terminology I picked up from observations of Japanese friends that I have, before that I did not observe it. Yes, the Japanese are two-faced - one public, one private - often say one thing, while meaning something completely different. It was also the observation of my Japanese friends that England was similar in the same ways. Americans more often will actually say what they mean (single face). I do not know if the Scottish are two faced, I don't know enough Scots (living in Scotland) only ones that left 20+ years ago. Of course when you are talking about UK outside of the UK - it is really English you are talking about since that is by far a majority of the population.

Scotland is still part of the UK, but in percentage terms their vote is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. 45% of Scots voted for independence, 25% of those that voted for independence voted that way based on being promised maximum devolution. Many voted to stay based on economic fear of the unknown (something in common with Quebec). It was lucky that many Scots were replaced by sheep..... otherwise things might have been different Basically a majority of Scots do not feel that commonality to their brethren to the south - but fear of the unknown and promise of more independance keeps them put in that "union" (a very lopsided union)

Americans tend to say what they mean - i.e. more direct. Canadians tend to fall somewhere between. There are times that I appreciate American directness, but when talking to other people (especially in person) I tend to be more two-faced myself .... I often cannot say things honestly if I don't think the other person can handle it.

Edited October 9, 2014 by bkkcanuck8

[Grindting]

if you dont consider scotland to be a part of the UNITED kingdom, who do you consider to be a part of it?

Scotland, then the EU.

The "rest of the UK" makes up 90% of the UKs population, therefore I tend to use UK and England interchangeably because UK and England are generally percentage wise English.

I do have some "English" blood on my mother's side.... which my mother lovingly calls her "bad blood". When I worked in England / London area my mother told me NOT to marry a girl from there because we already had enough bad blood in our family. I then asked are you including Scotland and she said - no.... Scottish ok, Japanese ok, Thai ok, but not English

Your mother is an ignorant fool

[thailiketoo]

You are an embarrassment to Canada. The English aren't two faced nor are the Japanese and that belief is held by no one in Canada other than yourself. Scotland is still part of the UK they just had a vote regardless of your silly ideas of geopolitical nonsense.

I might be an embarrassment to Canada.... but the terminology two-faced is actually terminology I picked up from observations of Japanese friends that I have, before that I did not observe it. Yes, the Japanese are two-faced - one public, one private - often say one thing, while meaning something completely different. It was also the observation of my Japanese friends that England was similar in the same ways. Americans more often will actually say what they mean (single face). I do not know if the Scottish are two faced, I don't know enough Scots (living in Scotland) only ones that left 20+ years ago. Of course when you are talking about UK outside of the UK - it is really English you are talking about since that is by far a majority of the population.

Scotland is still part of the UK, but in percentage terms their vote is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. 45% of Scots voted for independence, 25% of those that voted for independence voted that way based on being promised maximum devolution. Many voted to stay based on economic fear of the unknown (something in common with Quebec). It was lucky that many Scots were replaced by sheep..... otherwise things might have been different Basically a majority of Scots do not feel that commonality to their brethren to the south - but fear of the unknown and promise of more independance keeps them put in that "union" (a very lopsided union)

Americans tend to say what they mean - i.e. more direct. Canadians tend to fall somewhere between. There are times that I appreciate American directness, but when talking to other people (especially in person) I tend to be more two-faced myself .... I often cannot say things honestly if I don't think the other person can handle it.

two-faced

adjective

adjective: two-faced

insincere and deceitful.

synonyms:

deceitful, insincere, double-dealing, Janus-faced, hypocritical, backstabbing, false, fickle, untrustworthy, duplicitous, deceiving, dissembling, dishonest.

Sorry but words are words and you can't make up your own definitions.

[bkkcanuck8]

if you dont consider scotland to be a part of the UNITED kingdom, who do you consider to be a part of it?

Scotland, then the EU.

The "rest of the UK" makes up 90% of the UKs population, therefore I tend to use UK and England interchangeably because UK and England are generally percentage wise English.

I do have some "English" blood on my mother's side.... which my mother lovingly calls her "bad blood". When I worked in England / London area my mother told me NOT to marry a girl from there because we already had enough bad blood in our family. I then asked are you including Scotland and she said - no.... Scottish ok, Japanese ok, Thai ok, but not English

Your mother is an ignorant fool

Her memories of her English grandmother are those of someone that did not give her fond memories. In fact it was someone she was always afraid of growing up, and eventually became lovingly called her "bad blood" (in a humourous manner).

[bkkcanuck8]

OOps my bad, I should have used "two faced" not "two-faced" (i.e. having more than one face). It was originally translated Japanese

I did say how I was using the term.... when I was using the term.... maybe there is a better term but it is the terminology that I learned when I was learning the observation.

Edited October 9, 2014 by bkkcanuck8

[bkkcanuck8]

The meaning I was using for "two faced" was having two faces

i.e. two faced when a person acts a certain way in one place and acts different in another.

It would be funny that you would have read that I was using what you posted as the dictionary meaning - at the same time I was saying I was two faced myself in that I cannot be completely honest about things if I think the person cannot handle the honest answer..... unless of course you were taking it that way for the pure reason that you could express faux outrage I don't see how anyone can read that one word and completely ignore the context that it was being used in unless they were deliberately trying to have something to be outraged about.

Edited October 9, 2014 by bkkcanuck8

[thailiketoo]

The meaning I was using for "two faced" was having two faces

i.e. two faced when a person acts a certain way in one place and acts different in another.

It would be funny that you would have read that I was using what you posted as the dictionary meaning - at the same time I was saying I was two faced myself in that I cannot be completely honest about things if I think the person cannot handle the honest answer..... unless of course you were taking it that way for the pure reason that you could express faux outrage I don't see how anyone can read that one word and completely ignore the context that it was being used in unless they were deliberately trying to have something to be outraged about.

There is no things such as national traits. That kind of stuff stopped being taught after the fall of the Third Reich.

[bkkcanuck8]

There is no things such as national traits. That kind of stuff stopped being taught after the fall of the Third Reich.

Really, you are trying to bring in racism into this discussion.

Every society indoctrinates its people and there are generalizations that are more predominate in one society than another. It does not mean one is good, and one is bad - just different ways of approaching things. Of course you will always have statistical outliers when you do talk in generalities. If I ask an American, I on average I will get a more direct response even if it is not the nicest of answers. For the Japanese, culturally they have great difficulty saying no, what you will get is something like "it is difficult" at which point you are suppose to be able to read inbetween the lines and understand that was actually no they can't but you are suppose to take it back so that they do not lose face at not being able to do something. The world is still very much tribal and there are things that come from our upbringing that we pass on to future generations. The increase in immigration between regions will eventually dilute those differences culturally speaking, but they still exist.

I often find that people that yell racism are in fact closet racists..... you cannot see things in things without having that within you to begin with.

[thailiketoo]

There is no things such as national traits. That kind of stuff stopped being taught after the fall of the Third Reich.

Really, you are trying to bring in racism into this discussion.

Every society indoctrinates its people and there are generalizations that are more predominate in one society than another. It does not mean one is good, and one is bad - just different ways of approaching things. Of course you will always have statistical outliers when you do talk in generalities. If I ask an American, I on average I will get a more direct response even if it is not the nicest of answers. For the Japanese, culturally they have great difficulty saying no, what you will get is something like "it is difficult" at which point you are suppose to be able to read inbetween the lines and understand that was actually no they can't but you are suppose to take it back so that they do not lose face at not being able to do something. The world is still very much tribal and there are things that come from our upbringing that we pass on to future generations. The increase in immigration between regions will eventually dilute those differences culturally speaking, but they still exist.

I often find that people that yell racism are in fact closet racists..... you cannot see things in things without having that within you to begin with.

Racism has nothing to do with nationalities and I didn't bring it up. Your idea of national characteristics is nonsense and higher educations stopped teaching it after the fall of the Third Reich.

[bkkcanuck8]

There is no things such as national traits. That kind of stuff stopped being taught after the fall of the Third Reich.

Really, you are trying to bring in racism into this discussion.

Every society indoctrinates its people and there are generalizations that are more predominate in one society than another. It does not mean one is good, and one is bad - just different ways of approaching things. Of course you will always have statistical outliers when you do talk in generalities. If I ask an American, I on average I will get a more direct response even if it is not the nicest of answers. For the Japanese, culturally they have great difficulty saying no, what you will get is something like "it is difficult" at which point you are suppose to be able to read inbetween the lines and understand that was actually no they can't but you are suppose to take it back so that they do not lose face at not being able to do something. The world is still very much tribal and there are things that come from our upbringing that we pass on to future generations. The increase in immigration between regions will eventually dilute those differences culturally speaking, but they still exist.

I often find that people that yell racism are in fact closet racists..... you cannot see things in things without having that within you to begin with.

Racism has nothing to do with nationalities and I didn't bring it up. Your idea of national characteristics is nonsense and higher educations stopped teaching it after the fall of the Third Reich.

References to the "Third Reich" are generally made to indicate that you are racist intentions... the "national characteristics" you are talking about are racial supremacy / genetics and not to the ways one is "socialized" (aka indoctrinated into society). It was done through purification of the blood through the practice of eugenics because the only way for society to advance was to use genocide to get rid of the wrong genes.

Edited October 9, 2014 by bkkcanuck8

[thailiketoo]

Racism has nothing to do with nationalities and I didn't bring it up. Your idea of national characteristics is nonsense and higher educations stopped teaching it after the fall of the Third Reich.

References to the "Third Reich" are generally made to indicate that you are racist intentions... the "national characteristics" you are talking about are racial supremacy / genetics and not to the ways one is "socialized" (aka indoctrinated into society). It was done through purification of the blood through the practice of eugenics because the only way for society to advance was to use genocide to get rid of the wrong genes.

You wrote, "Every society indoctrinates its people and there are generalizations that are more predominate in one society than another." That is nonsense and the last universities of higher education to teach such trash were in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's.

The few wacko's that do believe things like that are usually out of the education system by the end of high school.

It's bad enough that Thais are influenced by this outmoded philosophy but certainly it is no longer tolerated in Western schools. Regardless to your references to "bad blood" it is not a humorous concept.

Edited October 9, 2014 by thailiketoo

[bkkcanuck8]

You wrote, "Every society indoctrinates its people and there are generalizations that are more predominate in one society than another." That is nonsense and the last universities of higher education to teach such trash were in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's.

The few wacko's that do believe things like that are usually out of the education system by the end of high school.

What do you think happens every time someone has a child, they teach their children what they learned when they were a child. They bring them to the same church, they will get married in the same church and then baptise their children in the same church. When a society in a specific region is 80% of the same religion then it is almost automatic. More recent immigration where there societies mix, and there is not that dominance.... it is not as automatic....

The problem historically speaking is not that societies had differences, it is that people (especially in groups) tend to be arrogant and not very tolerant in their viewpoint where their way is right and therefore everyone else that is not the same is wrong.

There are whole University degrees that are based on studying societal social norms etc (social sciences). Yes, I agree with you that people taking these degrees are whacko -- but many take it anyways.

Which brings us back into the original topic of this thread, the arrogance of thinking your way is right and the Thai way of doing things are wrong and must be changed.

It's bad enough that Thais are influenced by this outmoded philosophy but certainly it is no longer tolerated in Western schools.

Hence, your superiority is showing again!

Regardless to your references to "bad blood" it is not a humorous concept.

It is my bad blood - I can talk about it - but not you

Edited October 9, 2014 by bkkcanuck8

[SoiBiker]

So anyway - should they bring the soup at the beginning of the meal or what?

[bkkcanuck8]

So anyway - should they bring the soup at the beginning of the meal or what?

I prefer the Thai way of bring everything and sharing everything. European way of serving appetizers, your own plate of meat and 3 veg and then desert is just the most boring way to enjoy food.

[thailiketoo]

A guy by the name of Phibun began Thailand on a ultra nationalistic campaign in the 1930's. It is still effecting Thai attitudes of Thai style and Thainess. He led them to believe they were a super power with super abilities. It was the whole Greater Asia co prosperity sphere that began when Australia convinced the league of nations to reject Japan on the basis of non equality of Asian peoples. Australian Prime Minister Billy Hughes clarified his opposition and announced at a meeting that ninety-five out of one hundred Australians rejected the very idea of equality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_Equality_Proposal

Well, that started the Japanese off and they started Phibun and the Thais off and we have the mess in Thai schools that we have today.

Thais feel that any attempt by Westerners to change anything in Thailand that is not sanctioned by Thailand is a negative.

That's the real basis of the serving food problem. Phibun started the Thais eating with a spoon and fork if only he would have included some serving instructions along with all his other cultural mandates we would be getting food in the correct order today.

[SoiBiker]

That's the real basis of the serving food problem.

How is it a problem? They serve food the way they do because they eat the way they do. Why should they give a shit if a few farangs don't like it?

[thailiketoo]

That's the real basis of the serving food problem.

How is it a problem? They serve food the way they do because they eat the way they do. Why should they give a shit if a few farangs don't like it?

It's a French thing (French being the food authority). There are different styles of service that go with different food.

http://www.slideshare.net/jha69/types-of-food-and-beverage-services

It's like the international rules of etiquette. Certain things are proper regardless of your background or culture. Everybody knows you don't poop on the table. Everybody. Some things just are not done in human society.

[SoiBiker]

You want things done like they do in Europe? Go live in Europe.

[bkkcanuck8]

The Thai use of fork and spoon is more logical. The fact that they don't use a knife at the table is cultural (asian) -- knives are used for fighting not for eating.

The spoon is better able to hold food (chopped, rice etc.) on than a fork would which allows the food to roll off.

Oh great, another European culture / country is again apparently superior.... self-appointedly so....

Thailand was never colonized by a European power and Thais are proud of that fact.

I really hate sitting down to a setting where you have 15 utensils.... (forks, knives, spoons etc.).

Edited October 9, 2014 by bkkcanuck8

[benalibina]

You want things done like they do in Europe? Go live in Europe.

You are unbeatable.......btw, i heard the Tour de France is coming to Thailand.

[SoiBiker]

You want things done like they do in Europe? Go live in Europe.

You are unbeatable.......btw, i heard the Tour de France is coming to Thailand.

No idea. I have no interest in cycle racing.

[thailiketoo]

The Thai use of fork and spoon is more logical. The fact that they don't use a knife at the table is cultural (asian) -- knives are used for fighting not for eating.

The spoon is better able to hold food (chopped, rice etc.) on than a fork would which allows the food to roll off.

Oh great, another European culture / country is again apparently superior.... self-appointedly so....

Thailand was never colonized by a European power and Thais are proud of that fact.

I really hate sitting down to a setting where you have 15 utensils.... (forks, knives, spoons etc.).

I doubt will be much of a problem.

[thailiketoo]

You want things done like they do in Europe? Go live in Europe.

There are rules for serving high tea that even the barbarians in the wilds of Victoria Island Canada follow.

There are rules for eating Japanese food with chopsticks and how to brew Japanese and serve Japanese tea and sake. There are also rules for drinking and eating in Korea and Thailand that should be followed when eating at Korean or Thai restaurants.

The same can be said for many different cuisines. One does not put ketchup on Pizza nor roll it up in a little balls and pop it in your mouth.

You don't have to go to Europe to be polite and well mannered. When eating from a menu one should follow the serving dictates of the style of food on that menu. That's just being polite and well mannered.

[SoiBiker]

That's just being polite and well mannered.

You're trying to apply a western idea of politeness and manners in an asian setting. These things are not universal, no matter how superior you think your way of doing things might be.

[thailiketoo]

The Thai use of fork and spoon is more logical. The fact that they don't use a knife at the table is cultural (asian) -- knives are used for fighting not for eating.

Aw come on. Link that one. I can't wait.

Do you really want to know why or do you want to continue to make up stuff?

Look up Thai cultural mandates "people were encouraged to eat with a fork and spoon, rather than with their hands as was customary. Phibunsongkhram saw these policies as necessary, in the interest of progressivism, to change Thailand in the minds of foreigners from an undeveloped and barbaric country into a civilized and modernized one."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaek_Phibunsongkhram

[bkkcanuck8]

The Thai use of fork and spoon is more logical. The fact that they don't use a knife at the table is cultural (asian) -- knives are used for fighting not for eating.

Aw come on. Link that one. I can't wait.

Do you really want to know why or do you want to continue to make up stuff?

Look up Thai cultural mandates "people were encouraged to eat with a fork and spoon, rather than with their hands as was customary. Phibunsongkhram saw these policies as necessary, in the interest of progressivism, to change Thailand in the minds of foreigners from an undeveloped and barbaric country into a civilized and modernized one."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaek_Phibunsongkhram

Just logic, forks might work for mashed potatoes - but when you scoop little bits of rice and sauce with a fork it is not the most efficient and is more likely to have stuff fall off the fork (unless you put very little in the middle).

I was brought up that you sat straight, put your spoon in the soup which is left on the table and bring that spoon back up. Japanese customs would see that as impolite. Slurping noodles in Europe is considered impolite, slurping noodles in Japan is polite (silence is not appreciated). Politeness is dictated by the society you are in, not the restaurant you are in.

[thailiketoo]

That's just being polite and well mannered.

You're trying to apply a western idea of politeness and manners in an asian setting. These things are not universal, no matter how superior you think your way of doing things might be.

Nonsense. How do you think a Japanese person would react if you began to eat rice with your hands in a good restaurant in Japan? Is that Western? Is it OK to ball up sticky rice and eat it with your hands in a Thai restaurant? Sure. Is that Western? No. These things are universal. Being polite is universal. When you eat my food eat it correctly. Thailand you can eat rice by hand in America you can eat french fries by hand.

You probably think politeness is a Western concept but I assure you it is not.

[thailiketoo]

The Thai use of fork and spoon is more logical. The fact that they don't use a knife at the table is cultural (asian) -- knives are used for fighting not for eating.

Aw come on. Link that one. I can't wait.

Do you really want to know why or do you want to continue to make up stuff?

Look up Thai cultural mandates "people were encouraged to eat with a fork and spoon, rather than with their hands as was customary. Phibunsongkhram saw these policies as necessary, in the interest of progressivism, to change Thailand in the minds of foreigners from an undeveloped and barbaric country into a civilized and modernized one."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaek_Phibunsongkhram

Just logic, forks might work for mashed potatoes - but when you scoop little bits of rice and sauce with a fork it is not the most efficient and is more likely to have stuff fall off the fork (unless you put very little in the middle).

I was brought up that you sat straight, put your spoon in the soup which is left on the table and bring that spoon back up. Japanese customs would see that as impolite. Slurping noodles in Europe is considered impolite, slurping noodles in Japan is polite (silence is not appreciated). Politeness is dictated by the society you are in, not the restaurant you are in.

Nonsenses. Do you eat the same at MacDonald's as the Ritz Carlton?