confusing /conflicting advice from visa lawyer in uk

[dirtycash]

Teebee is correct. Jay Satay is correct in most of his replies but the bit about the garda officer saying my wife can come to dundalk and apply for a passport there is i think wrong....Though i would still need to know this - can wife apply for irish passport ? Or is it better she applies for naturalisation ? Or are the two the same.

[japsportscarmad]

Teebee is correct. Jay Satay is correct in most of his replies but the bit about the garda officer saying my wife can come to dundalk and apply for a passport there is i think wrong....Though i would still need to know this - can wife apply for irish passport ? Or is it better she applies for naturalisation ? Or are the two the same.

Will they not tell you at the Irish Embassy for free so you can sort it out?

[Richard W]

Teebee is correct. Jay Satay is correct in most of his replies but the bit about the garda officer saying my wife can come to dundalk and apply for a passport there is i think wrong....Though i would still need to know this - can wife apply for irish passport ? Or is it better she applies for naturalisation ? Or are the two the same.

Jay Sata said 'Irish residence card', not 'passport'.

The other claim is that she can naturalise as Irish and then get an Irish passport. I don't know whether you would regard that as treasonable.

[tullynagardy]

Teebee is correct. Jay Satay is correct in most of his replies but the bit about the garda officer saying my wife can come to dundalk and apply for a passport there is i think wrong....Though i would still need to know this - can wife apply for irish passport ? Or is it better she applies for naturalisation ? Or are the two the same.

I thought my PM answered all that

She can apply now for naturalisation, then once a citizen she gets her passport. It will take the guts of a year for this to happen but it`s all rather simple. If you google "Irish naturalisation through marriage" there are many sites outlining what you need to do.

As for the garda officer thing it`s absolute nonsense. It`s an unusual situation (in that she is entitled to Irish citizenship through marriage but currently needs a visa to enter Ireland) but that`s the way it is. Until you do the above she is simply a Thai National married to a British National and requires a visa to enter Ireland. Ironically Dundalk is the one area she is likely to get hassle as this is where the guards often board the Enterprise Train to check visas of foreign nationals.

All the talk in the world about how relaxed Irish people are and how invisible the border is (both quite true I guess) won`t help you when at a check in desk in Suvarnabhumi trying to get home, trying to explain that you want to enter Ireland with a UK residence permit!

[dirtycash]

Tullynagardy your are absolutely correct. Just been onto inis again. I am starting process of getting her irish naturalisation. Also thanks everyone else for your help and advice in this regard.

[liddelljohn]

how does this apply to a Thai wife of a Uk citizen who is on holiday in Uk and wishes to travel via channel l tunnel to france ,, and she is the holder of a UK 10 year multi entry visa and travelling with husband and daughter who are british passport holders ...

[tullynagardy]

how does this apply to a Thai wife of a Uk citizen who is on holiday in Uk and wishes to travel via channel l tunnel to france ,, and she is the holder of a UK 10 year multi entry visa and travelling with husband and daughter who are british passport holders ...

You should really start a new thread but on the face on it I`d say she needs a schengen visitor visa. Like the Irish one these are very easy to obtain when you have the right to remain in the UK.

[Richard W]

how does this apply to a Thai wife of a Uk citizen who is on holiday in Uk and wishes to travel via channel l tunnel to france ,, and she is the holder of a UK 10 year multi entry visa and travelling with husband and daughter who are british passport holders ...

If you're already in the UK, I suggest reading Thai Wife UK to EU via Ferry without Schengen Visa. This case is different because:

• Dirtycash is also Irish, but I presume the UK citizen is not also French.
• Mrs Dirtycash has to fly from Thailand to reach Irish immigration, but in your example French immigration can be reached from the UK without special transport.

[Jay Sata]

Tullynagardy your are absolutely correct. Just been onto inis again. I am starting process of getting her irish naturalisation. Also thanks everyone else for your help and advice in this regard.

If I may claim the credit here I was the one who suggested Mrs Dirtycash can get her naturalisation and then her passport.

I believe I am the only one here who is an Eire citizen!

For others reading this thread as I have said before if you have issues with costs and timeframe getting your Thai wife back home you should explore your Irish roots.

[Jay Sata]

Teebee is correct. Jay Satay is correct in most of his replies but the bit about the garda officer saying my wife can come to dundalk and apply for a passport there is i think wrong....Though i would still need to know this - can wife apply for irish passport ? Or is it better she applies for naturalisation ? Or are the two the same.

Jay Sata said 'Irish residence card', not 'passport'.

The other claim is that she can naturalise as Irish and then get an Irish passport. I don't know whether you would regard that as treasonable.

That is exactly what I suggested Richard. Many thanks as I feel others are having a go for me outlining what is possible.

[soundman]

Post containing a personal attack and subsequent replies removed.

[tullynagardy]

If I may claim the credit here I was the one who suggested Mrs Dirtycash can get her naturalisation and then her passport.

Well done little buddy, you`re one smart cookie. Treat yourself to a potato

I believe I am the only one here who is an Eire citizen!

I think it`s rather obvious both myself and the OP are Irish citizens. Anyway tell us more about this Guarda mate of yours in Dundalk, he sounds a hoot

[Jay Sata]

And we both know the politics so why ask that question?

I'll be happy to reveal some more of his off the cuff remarks over a Guinness next time I land at the UFC in Newtownards

My advice to Mrs Dirtycash is deal with INIS in Dublin regarding visas and the great people in

Tipperary town who will sort out your wife's naturalisation.

In the case of the latter you will discover the wonderful Irish personal service unlike the shambles in

Croydon.

On a final note experience of a country as an Irish citizen and passport holder is I suggest worth a lot more than advice from some who has never crossed the Irish Sea or indeed lived in the Republic.

I am more than happy to be taken to task for any incorrect info I may have posted but if you don't live in Eire or know how the system works from experience on the ground please do not use google for replies or advice.

For what it is worth my wife is a Thai and Irish citizen.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

<snip>

My advice to Mrs Dirtycash is deal with INIS in Dublin regarding visas.............

He did deal them, and their eventual reply was that his wife needs a visa and has to apply for it to the Irish embassy in London.

Which is basically what those of us whom you dismiss advised from the start of this topic, and the opposite of your original advice.

You originally stated that she didn't need a visa at all, then when proven wrong on that point you advised her to drive down to Dublin to get it!

Not the first time that you have given incorrect advice and then later claimed that you were right all along and everyone else was wrong.

That you feel the need to claim the credit for the advice given by other people is your problem. The truth is there for all who read the entire topic, and the others where you have done the same, to see.

Nothing more to say to you, I'm not going to indulge your fantasies any further.

Edited November 9, 2014 by 7by7

[Liquorice]

Point scoring is childish and achieves nothing.

The OP achieved his goal from the advice and opinions of everyone.

It was never totally identified that Mrs DC needed a Visa to satisfy Irish Immigration, but to satisfy the airline for her return flight.

It was a very informative thread, leave it at that!

Edited November 9, 2014 by Faz

[tullynagardy]

It was never totally identified that Mrs DC needed a Visa to satisfy Irish Immigration,

You must have missed the bit where he wrote the Irish Naturalisation & Immigration Service said he did, posters like myself with direct experience confirmed it, and links to government websites saying he did.

The idea (as Jay Sata says) you should ignore official government directions because "it`s different on the ground" is insane regardless of what country you are from. Saying to border guards "some guy on this forum I read says ......... " is never going to work when it contradict government advice.

Happy to see the poster following in the same path as my wife, meaning his wife can avoid all the English test and Life in UK &lt;deleted&gt;.

[Liquorice]

Naturalisation will indeed solve further problems, I totally agree.

However as the wife of an EU citizen holding a 'Residency Card of an EU citizen' under article10 of Directive 2004/38/EC she doesn't need a Visa to enter Ireland.

Maybe I missed something?

[tullynagardy]

However as the wife of an EU citizen holding a 'Residency Card of an EU citizen' under article10 of Directive 2004/38/EC she doesn't need a Visa to enter Ireland.

I see what you mean and perhaps some more into this than me will answer but my experience is -

- I write to you from Malta, my wife needed a Schengen visa, as she did when we visited France.

- When we enter the RoI to travel to Thailand we need a visa.

The only difference is we don`t have to pay and they require minimal evidenced and they are basically a formality, but it seems the countries can and do ask for visas.

[dirtycash]

Ive got dome great info from sll everyone of you even if dome was wrong it at leadt gave me insight into how things could or can work when dealing with inis. Still a bit confused as to apply for a visa ( at uk embassy or inis in dublin ) but anyway im going to apply for her naturalisation now so its all sorted. Thanks

[Jay Sata]

Ive got dome great info from sll everyone of you even if dome was wrong it at leadt gave me insight into how things could or can work when dealing with inis. Still a bit confused as to apply for a visa ( at uk embassy or inis in dublin ) but anyway im going to apply for her naturalisation now so its all sorted. Thanks

Despite others suggesting you apply via London your application will still be forwarded to Dublin.

You might as well save time and post it direct.

I take it you have read the info pack for applying online?

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Online%20Visa%20Application

Good luck with getting your wife her Irish citizenship. Much quicker,cheaper and easier than the UK.

For others interested here is the info

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Citizenship%20Application%20Forms

Edited November 11, 2014 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

<snip>

Still a bit confused as to apply for a visa ( at uk embassy or inis in dublin ) but anyway im going to apply for her naturalisation now so its all sorted. Thanks

Despite others suggesting you apply via London your application will still be forwarded to Dublin.

You might as well save time and post it direct.

Except for the fact that INIS have already told you, Dirtycash, that your wife has to submit the application to London!

Thank you for your enquiry.

I am directed by the Minister for Justice and Equality to refer to your

correspondence of 21/10/2014.

You will not be required to pay for the visa. You will need to contact the

Visa Office in London, where your application will be processed, to find

out their current processing times.

Kind regards,

Visa Customer Services

Visa Office, Dublin

Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service

Visa Mail

Mail-In Query

From :

To: Visa Mail ,

cc:

Date : 21/10/2014

Subject: Re: visa status for EEA permit holder

(My emphasis)

The website of the INIS confirms this

Q.4 I am legally resident in Northern Ireland, where can I apply for an Irish visa?

You must apply online. For information on applying for a visa, please click here. Your application will be processed by the Visa Office, Embassy of Ireland, London.

See Embassy of Ireland, Great Britain; Visas for Ireland.

Were you to post it direct to Dublin I have no idea whether it would be processed or returned with instructions to send it to London or even simply ignored; and I suspect that Jay Sata hasn't either.

But as all the information from INIS tells you to submit it to London, that is what I would do in your position.

[7by7]

Naturalisation will indeed solve further problems, I totally agree.

However as the wife of an EU citizen holding a 'Residency Card of an EU citizen' under article10 of Directive 2004/38/EC she doesn't need a Visa to enter Ireland.

Maybe I missed something?

Yes, I think that you have.

Dirtycash is a dual Irish/British citizen and the freedom of movement directives do not apply when the non EEA national family member is travelling to a state of which the EEA national family member is a citizen.

Except in certain circumstances such as Surinder Singh.

However, even if the directive does apply, the official advice is to obtain a visa anyway. See Arriving at the border without an entry visa at Travel documents for non-EU family members.

Plus, as discussed at length earlier in the topic, on her return from Thailand would Mrs Dirtycash even get to Irish immigration at Dublin? The airline may very well refuse to carry her without an irish visa of some sort and so she'd be stuck at Suvarnabhumi!

[Liquorice]

dirtycash, on 11 Nov 2014 - 16:16, said:

Ive got dome great info from sll everyone of you even if dome was wrong it at leadt gave me insight into how things could or can work when dealing with inis. Still a bit confused as to apply for a visa ( at uk embassy or inis in dublin ) but anyway im going to apply for her naturalisation now so its all sorted. Thanks

This site may help you:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/coming_to_live_in_ireland/visa_requirements_for_entering_ireland.html

Apply at:

Visa Office

Department of Justice and Equality

Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service

13-14 Burgh Quay

Dublin 2

Ireland

Homepage: http://www.inis.gov.ie/

Email: [email protected]

Also from the same site:

Who else can land in Ireland without a visa?

• You hold either a valid residence card 4 EU FAM or a valid permanent residence card 4 EU FAM issued by the Garda National Immigration Bureau under the European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) (No. 2) Regulations 2006 (SI 656/2006).
• You are a family member of an EU citizen and you hold a document called "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" as referred to in article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC (pdf).

Not sure what documentation your wife holds DC.

[Jay Sata]

This may also help you Dirtycash if you want to send the stuff to Dublin.

17. Q I am legally resident in Northern Ireland, where can I apply for an Irish visa?

A You may submit your application by post either to the Irish Embassy in London or to the Visa Section in Dublin

If applying through London any fees payable must be paid in pounds sterling (bank draft, money order, or postal order).

If applying through Dublin they must be paid in Euro (bank draft or postal order only).

Personal cheques are not accepted by either office

The relevant addresses are:

​

Visa Office

​Embassy of Ireland

​106 Brompton Road

​London SW3 1JJ

Or

​Visa Section (Ground Floor)

​Irish Naturalisation & Immigration Service

​13-14 Burgh Quay

​Dublin 2

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/VisaFAQsJan2007.doc/Files/VisaFAQsJan2007.doc

[Richard W]

However as the wife of an EU citizen holding a 'Residency Card of an EU citizen' under article10 of Directive 2004/38/EC she doesn't need a Visa to enter Ireland.

Maybe I missed something?

Yes, two things. Firstly, she holds a permanent residence card, which is issued under Article 20, not Article 10. Secondly, British permanent residence cards are issued to people who are not entitled to them under EU law, such as Mrs Dirtycash. The British EEA regulations do not withdraw the rights from people who were previously thought to be covered by EU law, and so benefited from them, but in fact never had those rights.

The Schengen countries accord holders of Article 20 cards the same privileges as holders of Article 10 cards, but Britain and Ireland do not.

[7by7]

This may also help you Dirtycash if you want to send the stuff to Dublin.

17. Q I am legally resident in Northern Ireland, where can I apply for an Irish visa?

A You may submit your application by post either to the Irish Embassy in London or to the Visa Section in Dublin........

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/VisaFAQsJan2007.doc/Files/VisaFAQsJan2007.doc

That document is nearly 8 years old and contains the following disclaimer

This document will be updated from time to time as procedures and policies change, therefore applicants are advised to refer to the up to date version of these questions on the website before submitting any applications or documents.

(my emphasis)

The up to date version of this particular question on the INIS website says says

Q.4 I am legally resident in Northern Ireland, where can I apply for an Irish visa?

You must apply online. For information on applying for a visa, please click here. Your application will be processed by the Visa Office, Embassy of Ireland, London.

Furthermore, the email Dirtycash received from INIS said

.....You will need to contact the Visa Office in London, where your application will be processed.......

Up to you, Dirtycash, whether you want to rely on old information which appears to be out of date or on that currently being given out by the INIS on their website and in their email to you.

If your wife does decide to apply by post to Dublin, please let us know what happens; I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this point as it will, obviously, make it easier for future posters in your wife's position.

[Jay Sata]

Well have just had the following email from INIS Dirtycash

'It should be borne in mind however that the information contained on the

website is intended to act as a guideline only. It does not limit the

discretion of the Visa Officer in dealing with individual applications.'

Which is exactly what I have been trying to underline all the way through this thread

Happy to pm you the whole message Dirtycash.

The Irish immigration service and Garda are much easier to deal with and a lot less officious than their UK counterparts.

7by7 is relying entirely on what he can find online and from his lack of knowledge in the past , such as suggesting there were flights between Dublin and Belfast,has never even been to Ireland.

In contrast I am an Irish citizen who spends considerable time in Dublin and has a Thai wife who also holds an Irish passport. I have been through all the visa and naturalisation process so speak from experience.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Jay Sata

[bobrussell]

7by7 is relying on the INIS website, which seems sensible and helpful rather than to be criticised IMO.

Very odd and a bit surprising that the only flights between Dublin and Belfast are via London or Inverness and take about 4 hours! Perhaps someone should start some flights. Train takes about 3 hours but I got that from the internet as I have never been to Ireland either.

The gist of the advice was that a visa is a good idea to allow smooth boarding of the plane in Bangkok and to fully comply with the rules. This was good advice given in the third post of the thread, many pages ago.

[Jay Sata]

7by7 is relying on the INIS website, which seems sensible and helpful rather than to be criticised IMO.

Very odd and a bit surprising that the only flights between Dublin and Belfast are via London or Inverness and take about 4 hours! Perhaps someone should start some flights. Train takes about 3 hours but I got that from the internet as I have never been to Ireland either.

The gist of the advice was that a visa is a good idea to allow smooth boarding of the plane in Bangkok and to fully comply with the rules. This was good advice given in the third post of the thread, many pages ago.

I am not criticising 7by7 for highlighting the INIS website as it was me who pointed him to it in previous threads. However he sometime adopts the forum expert approach and castigates someone like me who is posting from experience.

You will see the quote I posted earlier from INIS which says the site is for information and not cast in stone rules. There are still Irish citizens in the north who for long standing political reasons would never accept having to post anything to do with Eire via a London office. INIS and other parts of Ireland's civil service would equally have political fall out if an Irish citizen created a fuss over being forced to use a London address for

a matter relating to the Republic.

You say it is very odd that there are no flights between Dublin and Belfast but if you ever get to drive between the two you'll discover why. There is an excellent road which means it is just over a two hour trip. The train will take you three if you are lucky but frankly is not reliable.

INIS and the Irish Naturalisation unit in Tipperary are very consumer friendly and in the case of the latter happy to take phone calls if you want to progress chase a partners application.

[dirtycash]

I will keep you guys posted on this issue. And any further correspondance from inis.