The New York Waldorf Astoria sale- a Chinese spy story in the making?

[craigt3365]

I bought a North Face jacket in China several years ago. I knew it was fake as it was probably 1/5th of what a real one would cost. But it was nice. The label was perfect. YKK zippers. Strong stitching. Perfect in every detail. Except...it was much heavier. Not the same materials. But it looked great! Unfortunately, left it on an overnight bus in Peru. So...had to buy another knockoff while I was there! LOL

[squarethecircle]

About the "quality" problem, my experience there is it likes to play a game with you, people that successfully cheat are considered "clever", so it's like a game of one-upping people. No wonder its talented people (along with its crooks and their families) want out.

More bad news about the PRC, this time about extraction of resources from Africa:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/308a133a-1db8-11e4-b927-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3Gk1hLRkP

PRC does well in countries like in SE Asia (as in Thailand where a PRC military linked telecommunications company recently bought a 20% share in nationwide infrastructure, Malaysia has insulated itself better) or Africa, where the non-existent rule-of-law makes it so it can pay off corrupt leaders and milk the local resources while locals remain destitute. But yes I don't think it will have the kind of "success" it aims for in countries with proper rule of law. At least I hope not b/c as a nerd your lunch money is not safe in PRC (and it has shown that considers other countries' nerds lunch money up for the taking as well).

Really a nasty form of hypocrisy, I have read some of the Party indoctrination materials which teach that China was "humiliated" in the past, it is time for the greatness of China to emerge, blah blah blah, meanwhile it goes on implementing the nasty sort of imperialism it complains about. I think it will show its true colours in the future, and perhaps face a second century of humiliation.

Also recall the response to the New York Times' report on the PRC's prime minister's wealth accumulation. One wonders how the people in China would respond if they were fully aware of all this - I recall Mao said something to the effect that Chinese would be weak and easy to repress, perhaps they will prove him wrong as it seems like HK's young people are doing now?

Edited October 21, 2014 by squarethecircle

[LawrenceChee]

I believe quality is price point for skill set and materials used

Personally I use a Bally travel wallet as I like the design and the stitching and the craftsmanship.

It's $890 I paid for in Sydney duty free ...you can also buy a muji one for $17 in Central or $2.50 at the night market in CM ...

People should pay what they choose in life and there is a market for all price points of products as the diversity & choices of the consumers is vast

[LawrenceChee]

It was refreshing to see Publicus acknowledge a great Chinese corporate success in the case of Lenovo in this thread. CEO Yang was named by Barrons as one of the world's best CEOs last year, and not without good reason. They took an ailing IBM unit and turned it into the world's largest PC vendor, and are looking to do the same with Smartphones (more difficult task).

In other words, The Chinese have proven themselves adept at taking on a former great asset and revamping, improving and restoring it to greatness once again. I don't see any reason they can't and won't do the same with the Waldorf-Astoria.

After last month witnessing the largest IPO in world history, Alibaba (the Chinese e-commerce) company (another visionary CEO whom I know), it is somewhat naiive and outdated to refer to Chinese acquisitions or business interests in the US or elsewhere as being motivated by nefarious espionage. I can see the legitimate national security reasons for blocking the sale of a key logistics port, but a tired old art-deco historical hotel?

Alibaba has some major problems:

http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/11/technology/alibaba-counterfeit-ipo/

"Some of [our clients] would estimate up to 80% of [their] goods found on Taobao ... are counterfeit."

John Motley, director of intellectual property at Columbia Sportswear, said that counterfeits on Alibaba's sites are a major problem. In hundreds of Taobao test purchases made last year, 82% of the products sporting the Columbia brand were actually fakes.

It's actually even more complex than that. Many of the products are actually produced in licensed factories and are OEM spec in every way, but production runs in extra secret shifts and shuffled out the back door to be sold by traders on Alibaba. In fact, it is becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish real from fake and that is in deed a huge problem.

This is a rampant problem with no real solution in sight. Boils down to upbringing and character of honesty

Edited October 21, 2014 by LawrenceChee

[LawrenceChee]

The good news is again the growth engine of China is finally slowing down as its latest data released is at 7.3%

I would figure 6-6.5% will bring us to a balanced pace of growth and slow reduction to pollution in the major cities

This is a matter of much urgency and more importance than a hotel purchase/ hotel stay in NY at the moment in the standing committee discussion happening this month

[squarethecircle]

"It's actually even more complex than that. Many of the products are actually produced in licensed factories and are OEM spec in every way, but production runs in extra secret shifts and shuffled out the back door to be sold by traders on Alibaba. In fact, it is becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish real from fake and that is in deed a huge problem."

Also I read there is major issue with lack of work satisfaction among PRChinese people. I guess when you're slaving away and easily replaced by 10 other migrants waiting for your job, for a bully who runs off to the west with the cash you made for him, you don't take satisfaction in what you're doing, don't put soul in your work. This is manifested in the final product. Korea and Japan have similar ways of running things (reverse-engineer/copy then find a way to improve it) but have been more successful on the quality side, Samsung with reverse-engineering Apple for example.

Edited October 21, 2014 by squarethecircle

[ableguy]

Anybody aware that this is where crisps were invented ( potato crisps ) by a chef pissed off by a customer who twice sent his potatoes back to the kitchen claiming they were under cooked. Waldorf Astoria stayed there several times, now run down as stated earlier.

[Publicus]

The good news is again the growth engine of China is finally slowing down as its latest data released is at 7.3%

I would figure 6-6.5% will bring us to a balanced pace of growth and slow reduction to pollution in the major cities

This is a matter of much urgency and more importance than a hotel purchase/ hotel stay in NY at the moment in the standing committee discussion happening this month

The CCP Standing Committee are the 7 people at the very top of the CCP-PRC yet the seven are as divided as are Obama and the Republicans in Congress. It's Xi Jinping and PM LI Kejing against the other five with each side looking out for itself only. It's been a Washington standoff in Beijing that has no end in sight.

The CCP's economy meanwhile needs to grow at 9% annually to satisfy the labor market but has been growing below that rate since something like 2009.

The place is still holding together as the present 7.3% rate of GDP growth becomes the new reality. The further new reality is that growth of 6%-6.5% is imminent, perhaps as soon as next year.

Nomura Holdings which was the first to call the present property bubble bursting in the PRC says that a PRChina recession is defined as 5% growth over five consecutive quarters. It is bizarre that there can be a recession while there is still GDP growth, and 5% growth besides, but that's the nature of the CCP and its PRC.

Economists agree that the CCP's economy is like the Keanu Reeves-Linda Hamilton movie Speed, in which a lunatic strapped a bomb under a bus that would explode if the bus travelled below 55 mph. The CCP Boyz are irreversibly losing speed and are grinding down to the threshold double nickel.

China’s property bubble has burst: Economists

MAY 7, 2014

BEIJING — China’s property bubble has burst and growth in Asia’s largest economy could slow sharply to less than 6 per cent this year unless the government steps in with fresh stimulus measures, economists at Nomura securities brokerage warned yesterday.

“It is no longer a question of ‘if’, but rather ‘how severe’ the property market correction will be. We are convinced that the property sector has passed a turning point,” the economists said in their research report.

Nomura said four provinces in north China — Heilongjiang, Jilin, Inner Mongolia and Gansu — are leading indicators of the deepening problems in the real estate sector, with property investment having turned negative in the first quarter while industrial output slowed. In Heilongjiang and Jilin, property investment plunged by more than 25 per cent from the previous year.

http://www.todayonline.com/business/chinas-property-bubble-has-burst-economists

[LawrenceChee]

It's amazing that a school teacher can describe a meeting of the top standing committee of any government with such clarity as a standoff almost as if he is present in the meetings.

I guess that's the beauty of imagination and I always give credit to the west for that as their animation and creativity in movies are astounding (no sarcasm meant..I really meant this comment as it is)

That is the difference where a president BJ adventures with an intern or having a credit card declined is newsworthy and considered fair game by the press for reporting in the west

The governance of asian nations is different and at times perhaps the west can learn from as any infighting is never reported and a united front is always presented to the country as a disjointed government causes discomfort in Asia if the direction is unclear.

China needs to slow down for its own sake and has been cautioning that for years ; the new leadership is at the right junction and at the right time to implement this now for the country.

I would like to see a stable China at 5% growth and reduce the pollution levels ...somehow in my dreams I long to see the green fields again of hangzhou with the famed longjing tea replicated in the bigger cities but we may never see those again ....but there is hope in the tier 2/3 cities to still make a difference.

In the meantime the businessman representing China can slow down on their overseas acquisition and relax and enjoy a bit of the life balance ...chill like the west do its a good balance.

For me that's a KFC meal with my best friend in Chiang Mai Big C ...

Edited October 21, 2014 by LawrenceChee

[Publicus]

The fact is the enormous property bubble in the PRChina has begun its bursting and a bursting bubble never ends well.

This bursting bubble will set off the cascading of the several other bubbles in banking and finance and throughout the CCP's economy.

Local and provincial governments have established their own development corporations that are heavily invested in the property and banking bubbles which will leave those governments busted too.

The list of calamities befalling the CCP's PRC gets very long.

These realities and others would be known and acknowledged by any modern nomad business consultant to leisure world who isn't in need of smelling salts.

[LawrenceChee]

At the local mining loading station and very good to see the slowdown in exports to China

Empty carts and the unions and mgt here tells me it's hard times ahead as their orders for 2015 is slashed ...looks like these Aussies in the western state won't have fat bonuses this year for their happy beer times

I am happy to see the slowdown ...we needed that and now we have strong leadership who wants to make it happen to tackle the pollution that is destroying China's landscape

Another slow month of October in data just released ...

Edited November 2, 2014 by LawrenceChee

[squarethecircle]

Well meanwhile here in Loei the North Star shines bright in the night sky, but the hotel has numerous Chinese "businessmen" working here in the gold mining business. It is an ideal situation for them as they are relatively free to extract the wealth of the country, have paid off various generals to allow them to do so, meanwhile the locals have seen nothing of it besides the left-over pollution (and I recall the "businessmen" paid various thugs to assault locals protesting it). It is good that the US has the rule of law to keep such crooks from having power, and I will be writing my senator to request his oversight over this hotel matter as the PRC government needs to stay in China, where the environment matches the ethics.

Edited November 5, 2014 by squarethecircle

[LawrenceChee]

Well meanwhile here in Loei the North Star shines bright in the night sky, but the hotel has numerous Chinese "businessmen" working here in the gold mining business. It is an ideal situation for them as they are relatively free to extract the wealth of the country, have paid off various generals to allow them to do so, meanwhile the locals have seen nothing of it besides the left-over pollution (and I recall the "businessmen" paid various thugs to assault locals protesting it). It is good that the US has the rule of law to keep such crooks from having power, and I will be writing my senator to request his oversight over this hotel matter as the PRC government needs to stay in China, where the environment matches the ethics.

It may be better to ask your senator to have apple and other corporations pay the right taxes first and help your economy ...could help eliminate some hatred for the current success of Chinese businessman in places you see ...may well help some in this spooking business Edited November 5, 2014 by LawrenceChee

[MJP]

Just wait til they get the estimate for re-wiring and plumbing!

[LawrenceChee]

Just wait til they get the estimate for re-wiring and plumbing!

13.9 million ...it's not a lot for a complete rehaul of an old iconic building

Edited November 6, 2014 by LawrenceChee

[Publicus]

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1414907896.755273.jpg

At the local mining loading station and very good to see the slowdown in exports to China

Empty carts and the unions and mgt here tells me it's hard times ahead as their orders for 2015 is slashed ...looks like these Aussies in the western state won't have fat bonuses this year for their happy beer times

I am happy to see the slowdown ...we needed that and now we have strong leadership who wants to make it happen to tackle the pollution that is destroying China's landscape

Another slow month of October in data just released ...

The CCP's economy is going down so it doesn't help anyone who repeatedly claims a certain business acumen to deny it. The first of many bubbles has already begun to burst with a cascade of other bubbles in line to inevitably follow.

Corporations and governments globally are quietly preparing for the crash and 2016 has been the expected year for a long time now. It will be a punch to the gut for the global economy and for many people but we'll straighten back up and China will still be there too.

http://www.internationalpolicydigest.org/2014/02/02/coming-collapse-china/

[LawrenceChee]

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1414907896.755273.jpg

At the local mining loading station and very good to see the slowdown in exports to China

Empty carts and the unions and mgt here tells me it's hard times ahead as their orders for 2015 is slashed ...looks like these Aussies in the western state won't have fat bonuses this year for their happy beer times

I am happy to see the slowdown ...we needed that and now we have strong leadership who wants to make it happen to tackle the pollution that is destroying China's landscape

Another slow month of October in data just released ...

The CCP's economy is going down so it doesn't help anyone who repeatedly claims a certain business acumen to deny it. The first of many bubbles has already begun to burst with a cascade of other bubbles in line to inevitably follow.

Corporations and governments globally are quietly preparing for the crash and 2016 has been the expected year for a long time now. It will be a punch to the gut for the global economy and for many people but we'll straighten back up and China will still be there too.

http://www.internationalpolicydigest.org/2014/02/02/coming-collapse-china/

It's not a collapse...it's a slowdown of economy for the Chinese and led by the CCP leadership for the long term growth of the country

I would hope many here would not be affected adversely here by these in the years to come especially the pensioners ; for those who have planned ahead they are all good

[MJP]

Just wait til they get the estimate for re-wiring and plumbing!

13.9 million ...it's not a lot for a complete rehaul of an old iconic building

Just wait for the no shows and work stopages.

[LawrenceChee]

Just wait til they get the estimate for re-wiring and plumbing!

13.9 million ...it's not a lot for a complete rehaul of an old iconic building

Just wait for the no shows and work stopages.

True ... the beauty of hotel building in China is you never have to deal with unions ....especially the hard core ones who just enjoying ranting

[MJP]

Just wait til they get the estimate for re-wiring and plumbing!

13.9 million ...it's not a lot for a complete rehaul of an old iconic building

Just wait for the no shows and work stopages.

True ... the beauty of hotel building in China is you never have to deal with unions ....especially the hard core ones who just enjoying ranting

Then the asbestos. Don't forget the asbestos.

[squarethecircle]

Well meanwhile here in Loei the North Star shines bright in the night sky, but the hotel has numerous Chinese "businessmen" working here in the gold mining business. It is an ideal situation for them as they are relatively free to extract the wealth of the country, have paid off various generals to allow them to do so, meanwhile the locals have seen nothing of it besides the left-over pollution (and I recall the "businessmen" paid various thugs to assault locals protesting it). It is good that the US has the rule of law to keep such crooks from having power, and I will be writing my senator to request his oversight over this hotel matter as the PRC government needs to stay in China, where the environment matches the ethics.

It may be better to ask your senator to have apple and other corporations pay the right taxes first and help your economy ...could help eliminate some hatred for the current success of Chinese businessman in places you see ...may well help some in this spooking business

Well that's mean. As far as I see the hatred for Chinese "businessmen" in SE Asia comes from their slave-owner mentality and crooked ways (like paying off corrupt local officials so they can extract local resources) rather than jealousy. Corrupt and arrogant bullies are disliked the world over.

[LawrenceChee]

Well meanwhile here in Loei the North Star shines bright in the night sky, but the hotel has numerous Chinese "businessmen" working here in the gold mining business. It is an ideal situation for them as they are relatively free to extract the wealth of the country, have paid off various generals to allow them to do so, meanwhile the locals have seen nothing of it besides the left-over pollution (and I recall the "businessmen" paid various thugs to assault locals protesting it). It is good that the US has the rule of law to keep such crooks from having power, and I will be writing my senator to request his oversight over this hotel matter as the PRC government needs to stay in China, where the environment matches the ethics.

It may be better to ask your senator to have apple and other corporations pay the right taxes first and help your economy ...could help eliminate some hatred for the current success of Chinese businessman in places you see ...may well help some in this spooking business

Well that's mean. As far as I see the hatred for Chinese "businessmen" in SE Asia comes from their slave-owner mentality and crooked ways (like paying off corrupt local officials so they can extract local resources) rather than jealousy. Corrupt and arrogant bullies are disliked the world over.

If this statement is true and a few selected OPs who love to do China bashing ....

I guess the idiom the Chinese copied everything is true when they saw how Nike, Coca Cola, Adidas and all other western slaver owner were running their factories in Vietnam and Bangladesh etc etc

The logical minded knows there are horrible bosses in every country and culture and it's not self limiting

Edited November 7, 2014 by LawrenceChee

[Publicus]

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1414907896.755273.jpg

At the local mining loading station and very good to see the slowdown in exports to China

Empty carts and the unions and mgt here tells me it's hard times ahead as their orders for 2015 is slashed ...looks like these Aussies in the western state won't have fat bonuses this year for their happy beer times

I am happy to see the slowdown ...we needed that and now we have strong leadership who wants to make it happen to tackle the pollution that is destroying China's landscape

Another slow month of October in data just released ...

The CCP's economy is going down so it doesn't help anyone who repeatedly claims a certain business acumen to deny it. The first of many bubbles has already begun to burst with a cascade of other bubbles in line to inevitably follow.

Corporations and governments globally are quietly preparing for the crash and 2016 has been the expected year for a long time now. It will be a punch to the gut for the global economy and for many people but we'll straighten back up and China will still be there too.

http://www.internationalpolicydigest.org/2014/02/02/coming-collapse-china/

It's not a collapse...it's a slowdown of economy for the Chinese and led by the CCP leadership for the long term growth of the country

I would hope many here would not be affected adversely here by these in the years to come especially the pensioners ; for those who have planned ahead they are all good

You need to say that to the global markets then try to convince them every factor they're looking at is not real.

[squarethecircle]

"If this statement is true and a few selected OPs who love to do China bashing ....

I guess the idiom the Chinese copied everything is true when they saw how Nike, Coca Cola, Adidas and all other western slaver owner were running their factories in Vietnam and Bangladesh etc etc

The logical minded knows there are horrible bosses in every country and culture and it's not self limiting "

Well two wrongs don't make a right, but if you look at the slave owners in SE Asia, such as the fishing ships in S Thailand, and look who are the bosses, you will find in every case they are ethnic Chinese, whether Thai-Chinese or whatever. Same in Singapore, which judging by your last name is I'm guessing where you come from, Mr. Chee. Perhaps you consider this Chinese bashing but this is exactly what locals have told me from Laos/Thailand/Myanmar/Malaysia, it is SE Asian opinion, you will not escape it except by shutting it up with force, and of course this is what the tyrants of PRChina know very well. This is relevant to the OP as it is important to keep the rule of law in force, as corruption in SE Asia has made it easy for such tyrants to take foot here.

[LawrenceChee]

It's a strange thought that a few corrupt bosses means all are bad.

Thankfully I met a few loudmouth bigot and self centered Americans and don't assume all are the same and continue to engage them in conversations

So are we saying now all non Chinese Bosses are the best ?

I just went to a ceremony honoring top hr practitioners in Asia and most of them are Chinese working in western MNC ...doing their jobs professionally and ensuring workers are happy...didn't spot any slaves

What I did spot in a recent trip to Bangladesh is how many western registered ship owners would dump their ships on these ship graves where thousands of children and adults have to dismantle the ship piece by piece by hand and no PPE ...creating rightly an Asian slave culture with no sense of responsibility from the western critiques who created the problem and the source

Makes me a little mad at times at the irony

Edited November 8, 2014 by LawrenceChee

[squarethecircle]

"So are we saying now all non Chinese Bosses are the best ?

I just went to a ceremony honoring top hr practitioners in Asia and most of them are Chinese working in western MNC ...doing their jobs professionally and ensuring workers are happy...didn't spot any slaves "

Nope you're twisting my words, but the primary ones coming out of PRC are no good, that we do know, and the "race card" will not work here. I always had very good experiences with ethnic Chinese friends, coworkers, managers in the US, decent and smart people. Was very surprised to hear the sort of things friends in SE Asia were saying about China, given my good experiences. But a corrupt authoritarianism is what's dominant out of PRC these days, the bad reputation is there for a reason.

And just now I read a report in a Myanmar-based news organization, from a Tanzanian government anti-wildlife-poaching source, that Emperor Xi's aides purchased a massive amount of illegal ivory from Tanzania and used diplomatic bags to smuggle it aboard his plane back to China:

http://www.irrawaddy.org/asia/tanzania-probes-alleged-ivory-smuggling-chinese-state-visit.html

No westerners or gweilos involved there. And these are the sort of people supposed to lead the clean-up-China anti-corruption crusade? The place is crooked to the very top.

Edited November 9, 2014 by squarethecircle

[Scott]

The very top in a lot of places is crooked because they can and they have the power. It is how far down the chain the corruption goes that is the most telling.

[LawrenceChee]

The very top in a lot of places is crooked because they can and they have the power. It is how far down the chain the corruption goes that is the most telling.

Agreed whether it's at the governance or corporate level

Indeed China has learnt over the years the sweet words of diplomacy is redundant in some ways and they are better off finding their own grounds and methods to achieve their objectives

The last 2 years have seen the biggest anti corruption drive with no stones unturned at every level past or present and yet somehow not only does the west doubt the sincerity , they classify it mainly as an opportunity from Xi to remove more liberal indeed cadre members ...

Calling him names like emperor or boyz in Beijing as some posters indicate as well it's a meaningless exercise to try to convince those cynics

in comparison the Chinese are also learning fast while the west likes to compare governance to a saintly level , rarely do they ever have the moral courage to actually do it ...whether is the watergate incident or a president getting a BJ from an intern it seems at every level a slippery interpretation of the law means no one is ever persecuted beyond a drag thru the papers and media.

Indeed when they see the last military campaigns , the decisions made by these commanders mirrors that of the top politicians ...totally clueless of the big picture and what's the main objective and that's being a tad harsh or over generalization but I would find it hard to say the last few campaigns has achieved its intended purpose of peace and democracy

Edited November 9, 2014 by LawrenceChee