Turning Thai Marriage Certificate into an EU Visa

[Richard W]

What is the cheapest way of making an old Thai marriage certificate into evidence of marriage acceptable for travel of myself (British citizen) and my wife (Thai citizen) around the EEA? I am not burdened by any other EEA citizenship. The certificate together with an old certified translation is available in England; if necessary my wife could visit the office at which the marriage was registered, but without the old certificate.

[Donutz]

If you are married (doesn't matter how long) then you as EU national with Thai (non-EU) national can get a free viss easily from all embassies (countries) except the country that you yourself are a national of. So If you'd be a Swede you could get a free visa with easy for all other Schengen nations, for the UK, for Ireland, for *insert EU/EEA nation here* . You will only need to the orginal marriage certificate. Preferably also with an official translation and if you had it certified by the Thai MoFa and/or an EU embassy, even better. Registration/acknowledgement of your Thai marriage in your EU country is NOT required (though the Spanish beg to differ, thus violating the EU Directive on Freedom of Movement).

So in short:

- Marriage certificate (if possible with fancy Thai MoFA and embassy stamps and an official translation, it makes things easier even if stricly speaking you are not obligated to provide all this).

- ID's of the both of you

- Something that shows that the Thai will join you or travel with you in said EU nation. Such as a (written) statement by you, or if you bother (again not mandatory under the directive but it may make things easier in practise) some reservation of transport to the EU member state.

- Hotel bookings, insurance etc. is not required. The visa should be free and issued ASAP (for Schengen within 15 calendar days). If you need an appointment, just as with regular applications, this can be done directly at the embassy. Or if you prefer (I wouldn't know why...) you could chose to go to an appointed external service provider at the cost of a service fee.

Also see the Schengen sticky ontop. It covers all what I have written here. Unless you have more specific questions? Heading for some non Schengen, non UK EU member state? Since this all is covered by the directive 2004/38 it should be the same for all EU member states so this information and sticky should still be of use.

[Richard W]

If you are married (doesn't matter how long) then you as EU national with Thai (non-EU) national can get a free viss easily from all embassies (countries) except the country that you yourself are a national of.

As my wife won't go to the fingerprinting by herself, the free visa will cost at least £40 and may not be valid for very long. That's why I was looking at using the marriage certificate directly.

- Marriage certificate (if possible with fancy Thai MoFA and embassy stamps and an official translation, it makes things easier even if strictly speaking you are not obligated to provide all this).

That's the sort of one-off (I hope) expenditure I had in mind.

Though I really don't want to force my wife down this road, I don't suppose there's yet any hope of getting an NTL residence permit that will record that my wife is the family member of an EEA national. Or is there? (If there be, I'll be asking, ideally in a separate thread, if there is a safe way of having a BRP renewal refused despite a valid application being submitted.)

Edited October 16, 2014 by Richard W

[7by7]

You are an EEA national, your wife is the qualifying family member of an EEA national. Any visa she requires for any other EEA state, including the Schengen ones, will be free of cost and hassle.

Expenses you incur in travelling to apply for the visa are irrelevant to this. Unless you expect the relevant embassy to reimburse you; good luck with that!

Strictly speaking, she does not actually need a visa at all; as has been explained many times in topics you have participated in.

But I will repeat for the benefit of others.

From the official EU site Your Europe; Travel documents for non-EU family members

Arriving at the border without an entry visa

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

'Other means' could be a UK residence card stating she is the family member of an EEA national, or it could simply be your marriage certificate, with a certified translation if not in an EEA language.

Although, to prevent the possibility of lengthy delays at immigration while you and she do all that, it is strongly recommended that she does obtain the necessary visa. As the above quote suggests when it says "It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey."

I cannot understand why you have asked this question. Your many posts in other topics show that you know all this!

[Donutz]

I'm at loss though since Richard seems very much aware of directive 2004/38/EC. So that's why I wondered if I misundertood the question or issue at hand.

I haven't checked recently but if applying from the UK you could save yourself 40 GBP (where is that figure from Richard? Indirect costs?) by applying for a German Schengen visa. Those are handled via the post. Atleast they used to be, I don't know how the Germans intend to take biometrics (fingerprints) for the VIS database.

If obtaining a visa in advance is not an option you could head to the external Schengen border and gain entry there. Via the air might be difficult due to reluctant airliners but many people have gone via Calais-Dover / Dover-Calais. Provided they could show the borderguards that they fall under the D. 2004/38/EC.

Edit: I also assumed Richard knows that a proof of marriage with an EU/EEA national is sufficient for a visa/entry (if you also cam ID the both of you and show that the EU national and non EU spouse will travel or join eachother). So to the question "What is the cheapest way of making an old Thai marriage certificate into evidence of marriage acceptable for travel of myself (British citizen) and my wife (Thai citizen) around the EEA?" the answer would be " you don't, proof of marriage is sufficient. Detailed for instance under article 10 among other partsand documents (the Schengen visa handbook for instance).

Edited October 17, 2014 by Donutz

[Richard W]

I'm at loss though since Richard seems very much aware of directive 2004/38/EC. So that's why I wondered if I misundertood the question or issue at hand.

I was worried that some official stamp would be required to certify the certificate or translation - a fancy stamp from the Thai MFA or an embassy, as you put it. All we have is the certification by the translation agency itself.

Proof is a very elastic concept. A marriage certificate does not prove that a couple are still married, though it might be feasible to produce evidence we hadn't divorced in Thailand.

I haven't checked recently but if applying from the UK you could save yourself 40 GBP (where is that figure from Richard? Indirect costs?) by applying for a German Schengen visa. Those are handled via the post. At least they used to be, I don't know how the Germans intend to take biometrics (fingerprints) for the VIS database.

The cost I quoted is the underestimate of the return fares for two people travelling to London.

For the German one, I couldn't work out the biometrics either. I tried filling in the postal application for my wife, expecting to be told to make a visit in person. However, I couldn't get past the questions about the UK residence permit. It needs an expiry date, and of course the vignette doesn't expire.

[Donutz]

Ah,I see. Thanks for clarifying.

Indeed you could be divorced but I've never heard that one had to provide evidence that they are currently still married. The 2004/38/EC document does not make any such specifications such as that a marriage certificate or legalisation needs to be recent (3 months old? 6?) Though as with any legal document or legalisation: even were their is an expiration date to the document itself or any stamps it carries, they too might have been outdated.

One can supply a 2-3 month old certificate of being single/married/... but as of last week that status could have changed! Checks would thus need to be made on the spot and in the worst case in a ton of databases: who says an unmarried UK-Thai couple did not marry in Denmark yesterday? Or you might have been divorced in country a but not (yet) in B, or registered the marriage in one country but not made the marriage known in the other etc. If authorities would wish to be almost 100% certain they could make things quite unworkable for applicants and themselves... I guess that is one reason why no details are specified. if false claims were made (you actually were divorced at the time of application) the whole application would be false due to fraud.

When fraud is suspected embassies may request further evidence. So if for some reason they'd genuinely believe you are not married then it would make sense to ask for more evidence such as a (recent?) legalisation. Stricly speaking this is not required by default since it's not specified in the directive. In practise certain embassies do prefer to see such legalisations though.

The -not legally binding- Schengen Handbook for the processing of visa (found at the EU Home Affairs website) covers this in more detail. Page 82: "PART III:SPECIFIC RULES RELATINGTO APPLICANTS WHO ARE FAMILYMEMBERS OF EU CITIZENS OR SWISS CITIZENS" reads:

(....)

3.
SPECIFIC DEROGATIONS FROM THE GENERAL RULES OF THE VISA CODE

This point provides for operational instructions concerning the specific derogations from the general rules of the Visa Code that are to be applied when it has
been ascertained that the visa applicant falls under the Directive and that there is no exemption from the visa requirement.

3.1.
Visa Fee
No visa fee can be charged.

3.2.
Service fee in case of outsourcing
of the collection of applications As family members should not pay any fee when submitting the application, they cannot be
obliged to obtain an appointment via a premium call line or via an external provider whose services are charged to the applicant. Fam
ily members must be allowed to lodge their application directly at the consulate without any costs. However, if family members decide
not to make use of their right to lodge their application directly at the consulate but to use the extra services, they should pay for these services.
If an appointment system is nevert heless in place, separate call lines (at ordinary local tariff) to the consulate should be put at the dispos
al of family members respecting comparable standards to those of "premium lines", i.e. the availability of such lines should be of standards
comparable to those in place for other categories of applicants and an appointment must be allocated without delay.

3.3.
Granting every facility
Member States shall grant third country family members of EU citizens falling under the Directive every facility to obtain the necessary visa. This notion must be interpreted as ensuring that Member States take all appropriate measures to ensure fulfilment of the obligations arising out of the right of free move ment and afford to such visa applicants the
best conditions to obtain the entry visa.

3.4.
Processing time
The visas must be issued as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure and the procedures put in place by Member States
(with or without outsourcing) must allow to distinguish between the rights of a third country national who is a family member of an EU
citizen and other third country nationals. The former must be treated more favourably than the latter. Processing times for a visa application lodged
by a third-country national who is a family member of an EU citizen covered by the Directive going beyond 15 days should be exceptional and duly justified.

3.5.
Types of visa issued
Article 5(2) of the Directive provides that third-country nationals who are family members of EU citizens may only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001.

3.6.
Supporting documents
In order to prove that the applicant has the right to be issued with an entry visa under the Directive, he must establish that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. This is done by
presenting documents relevant for the purposes of the three questions referred to above, i.e. proving that:
• there is an EU citizen from whom the visa applicant can derive any rights;
• the visa applicant is a family member (e.g. a marriage certificate, birth certificate,proof of dependency, serious health grounds, durability of partnerships ...) and his identity (passport); and
• the visa applicant accompanies or joins an EU citizen (e.g. a proof that the EU citizen already resides in the host Member State or a confirmation that the EU citizen will travel to
the host Member State).

It is an established principle of EU law in the area of free movement that visa applicants have the right of choice of the documentary evidence by which they wish to prove that they are covered by the Directive (i.e. of the family link, dependency ...) . Member States may, however, ask for specific documents (e.g. a marriage certificate as the means of proving the existence of marriage), but should not refuse other means of proof. For further information in relation to the documentation, see Commission Communication COM (2009) 313 final 22.
.
3.7.
Burden of proof
The burden of proof applicable in the framework of the visa application under the Directive is twofold:
Firstly, it is up to the visa applicant to prove that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. He must be able to provide documentary evidence foreseen above as he must be able to present
evidence to support his claim. If he fails to provide such evidence, the consulate can conclude that the applicant is not entitled to the specific treatment under the Directive.

Additional documents may not be required regarding the purpose of travel and means of subsistence (e.g. proof of accommodation, proof of cost of travelling), which is reflected in
the exemption for family members of EU citizens from filling in the following fields of the visa application form:
Field 19: "current occupation";
Field 20 :"employer and employer's address and telephone number. For students, name and address of educational establishment";
Field 31: "surname and first name of the inviting person(s) in the Member State(s). If not applicable, name of hotel(s) or temporary a
ccommodation(s) in the Member State(s);
Field 32: "Name and address of inviting company/organisation";
Field 33: "Cost of travelling and living during the applicant's stay".

A Member State may require that the relevant documents are translated, notarised or legalised where the original document is drawn up in a language that is not understood by the
authorities of the Member State concerned or if there are doubts as to the authenticity of the document.

3.8.
Refusal to issue a visa
A family member may be refused a visa exclusively on the following grounds:
• the visa applicant failed to demonstrate that he is covered by the Directive on the basis of the visa application and attached supporting documents under point 3.6
(i.e. it is clear that the reply to at least one of the three questions referred to above is negative);
• the national authorities demonstrate that the visa applicant is a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to public policy, public security or public health; or
• the national authorities demonstrate that there was abuse or fraud.

In the latter two cases, the burden of proof lies with the national authorities as they must be able to present evidence to support their claim that the visa applicant (who has presented sufficient evidence to attest that he/she meets the criteria in the Directive) should not be issued with an entry visa on grounds of public policy, public security or public health or on grounds of abuse or fraud. The authorities must be able to build a convincing case while respecting all the safeguards of the Directive which must be correctly and fully transposed in national law. The decision refusing the visa application on grounds of public policy, public security or public health or on grounds of abuse or fraud must be notified in writing, fully justified (e.g. by listing all legal and material aspect taken into account when concluding that the marriage is a marriage of convenience or that the presented birth certificate is fake) and must specify where and when the appeal can be lodged.

The refusal to issue an entry visa under the conditions of the Directive must be notified in writing, fully justified (e.g. by referring to the missing evidence), and specify where and when an appeal can be lodged.
A visa may not be refused on the sole ground that the applicant is a person for whom an alert has been entered into the SIS for the purpose of refusing entry into the territory of the
Member States. . Before refusing to issue a visa where there is an alert in the SIS, in any event it must be verified whether the person concerned represents a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to public policy, and public security. For further information, see Commission Communication COM (2009) 313 final 24
.
3.9.
Notification and motivation of a refusal
Article 30 of the Directive provides that family members must be notified in writing of the refusal. Irrespective of the mandatory notification and motivation of refusals as provided by
the Visa Code (applicable from 5 April 2011) , refusal to issue a visa to a family member of an EU citizen must always be fully reasoned and list all the specific f
actual and legal grounds on which the negative decision was taken, so that the person concerned may take effective steps to ensure his defence
.
The refusal must also specify the court or administrative authority with which the person concerned may lodge an appeal and the time limit for the appeal. Forms may be used to notify a negative decision but the motivation given must always allow for a full justification of the grounds of which the decision was taken, and therefore indication of one or more of several options by only ticking the boxes in the standard form set out in Annex VI to the Visa Code is not sufficient in the case of refusal to issue a visa to a family member of an EU citizen.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Donutz

[7by7]

<snip>

I was worried that some official stamp would be required to certify the certificate or translation - a fancy stamp from the Thai MFA or an embassy, as you put it. All we have is the certification by the translation agency itself.

My understanding is that whilst a certificate by the translator alone is sufficient for all UK purposes, most, if not all, Schengen states prefer the translation to be certified by the Thai MFA; either in Bangkok or at a Thai embassy; e.g. the RTE in Kensington.

This is, based upon what I have read from those who have done so, certainly seems to be the case when applying in Bangkok. But I have no experience or knowledge of how strict Schengen embassies in the UK are about this.

Proof is a very elastic concept. A marriage certificate does not prove that a couple are still married, though it might be feasible to produce evidence we hadn't divorced in Thailand.

Any document submitted in a visa, or any other, application could have expired, no longer be relevant or even be a forgery!

Unless the embassy concerned has reason to suspect that you are no longer married I can think of no reason why they would not accept your marriage certificate as genuine nor that you marriage is still extant.

How does a couple prove they have not divorced? There is no such thing, to my knowledge, as a certificate to show a couple have not divorced.

Though I suppose that if you are really worried about this point you and your wife could sign a sworn statement to that effect and have it notarised by a commissioner of oaths.

[DrChopper]

Guys forgive me asking a possibly basic question. I have tried to clarify this previously but could not.

Does the apply regardless of country of residence? I thought the non EU partner needing to have EU residency, but this thread suggest otherwise.

Specifically I am from the UK, wife is Thai, we live in Singapore and we wish to travel to Italy.

[7by7]

I'm sorry; I don't fully understand your question.

If you are asking about proof of marriage needed to obtain a Schengen visa for your wife to travel to Italy with you, then your marriage certificate, with a certified translation if not in an EEA language, should suffice.

Edit removed due to following post; see my answer to that.

Edited October 29, 2014 by 7by7

[DrChopper]

I'm sorry; I don't understand your question.

If you are asking about proof of marriage needed to obtain a Schengen visa for your wife to travel to Italy with you, then your marriage certificate, with a certified translation if not in an EU language, should suffice.

Sorry, I think I phrased my question poorly. I had thought that a further requirement to the marriage certificate (ours is translated and certified by the ministry) was a residency visa for the non EU national in an EU country, but I do not see that anywhere in this thread. So, the qn is: does this right to a visa with no cost and fewer requirements of proof apply to non EU spouses of EU nationals (including non schengen countries) regardless of where they live?

If so my wife should simply go to the Italian embassy in Singapore with proof of both ID, proof of marriage and proof we will travel to Italy together?

[7by7]

There is no need for the EEA national partner to be living in the EEA. No matter where in the world they live, their qualifying family member has the same freedom of movement rights as they do; provided the non EEA national is travelling with or to join the EEA national.

So your wife travelling to Italy from Singapore with you has those rights and so can apply to the Italian embassy in Singapore for her Schengen visa with just the supporting documents listed by Donutz above; i.e.:-

3.6.
Supporting documents
In order to prove that the applicant has the right to be issued with an entry visa under the Directive, he must establish that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. This is done by
presenting documents relevant for the purposes of the three questions referred to above, i.e. proving that:
• there is an EU citizen from whom the visa applicant can derive any rights;
• the visa applicant is a family member (e.g. a marriage certificate, birth certificate,proof of dependency, serious health grounds, durability of partnerships ...) and his identity (passport); and
• the visa applicant accompanies or joins an EU citizen (e.g. a proof that the EU citizen already resides in the host Member State or a confirmation that the EU citizen will travel to the host Member State)
(My emphasis)

This confirmation need not be booked tickets or similar; written confirmation from you that you and your wife will be travelling together should suffice.

For how to apply you should contact the Italian embassy in Singapore.

Edited October 29, 2014 by 7by7

[DrChopper]

There is no need for the EEA national partner to be living in the EEA. No matter where in the world they live, their qualifying family member has the same freedom of movement rights as they do; provided the non EEA national is travelling with or to join the EEA national.

So your wife travelling to Italy from Singapore with you has those rights and so can apply to the Italian embassy in Singapore for her Schengen visa with just the supporting documents listed by Donutz above; i.e.:-

3.6.

Supporting documents

In order to prove that the applicant has the right to be issued with an entry visa under the Directive, he must establish that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. This is done by

presenting documents relevant for the purposes of the three questions referred to above, i.e. proving that:

• there is an EU citizen from whom the visa applicant can derive any rights;

• the visa applicant is a family member (e.g. a marriage certificate, birth certificate,proof of dependency, serious health grounds, durability of partnerships ...) and his identity (passport); and

• the visa applicant accompanies or joins an EU citizen (e.g. a proof that the EU citizen already resides in the host Member State or a confirmation that the EU citizen will travel to the host Member State)

(My emphasis)

This confirmation need not be booked tickets or similar; written confirmation from you that you and your wife will be travelling together should suffice.

For how to apply you should contact the Italian embassy in Singapore.

This is fabulous for us, thank you so much for your help. This being the case I am much more comfortable grabbing any great flight deals that we see between now and when she can apply. Thank you again!

[Richard W]

<snip>

the visa applicant accompanies or joins an EU citizen (e.g. a proof that the EU citizen already resides in the host Member State or a confirmation that the EU citizen will travel to the host Member State)

(My emphasis)

This confirmation need not be booked tickets or similar; written confirmation from you that you and your wife will be travelling together should suffice.

While booked tickets are not required, a hotel booking may be required instead to demonstrate that you are travelling together. His written confirmation might only be adequate in law.

While I think the OP has it together, he should also first check on the legalisation requirements for the marriage certificate and its translation. For example, it might have to be translated in Singapore, and I'm not sure that he was married in Singapore.

For example, look at the 'information' for applicants from the UK at http://it.vfsglobal.co.uk/eea_eu_family.html . It states, "All supporting documents must not be older than 1 month". While that can't literally be true, time limits on legalisations are applied in some contexts.

[Donutz]

<snip>

the visa applicant accompanies or joins an EU citizen (e.g. a proof that the EU citizen already resides in the host Member State or a confirmation that the EU citizen will travel to the host Member State)

(My emphasis)

This confirmation need not be booked tickets or similar; written confirmation from you that you and your wife will be travelling together should suffice.

While booked tickets are not required, a hotel booking may be required instead to demonstrate that you are travelling together. His written confirmation might only be adequate in law.

While I think the OP has it together, he should also first check on the legalisation requirements for the marriage certificate and its translation. For example, it might have to be translated in Singapore, and I'm not sure that he was married in Singapore.

For example, look at the 'information' for applicants from the UK at http://it.vfsglobal.co.uk/eea_eu_family.html . It states, "All supporting documents must not be older than 1 month". While that can't literally be true, time limits on legalisations are applied in some contexts.

In individual cases they may request additional documentation if there is sufficient reason to believe that the primairy documentation is not sufficient proof of marriage, travelnig together and identification of the couple. But normally any evidence of intention to travel together shuld do including a statement by the EU spouse. If you have transport or accomodation booked you can ofcourse submit those but there should be no need to to supply these by default. Some embassies do ask for such documents by default which is a violation of the EU guidelines.

The Schengen handbook (also posted in this thread) makes this quite clear aswell.

The age of a legalisation (of the maritial papers) shouldn't be an issue for a marriage certificate unless in individual cases there is sufficient reason to doubt that the marriage is still valid. Same reason as above, so the Italian information is in violation of the rules.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Donutz

[Richard W]

While booked tickets are not required, a hotel booking may be required instead to demonstrate that you are travelling together. His written confirmation might only be adequate in law.

In individual cases they may request additional documentation if there is sufficient reason to believe that the primairy documentation is not sufficient proof of marriage, travelnig together and identification of the couple. But normally any evidence of intention to travel together shuld do including a statement by the EU spouse. If you have transport or accomodation booked you can ofcourse submit those but there should be no need to to supply these by default. Some embassies do ask for such documents by default which is a violation of the EU guidelines.

The Schengen handbook (also posted in this thread) makes this quite clear aswell.

Perhaps I should relax 'hotel booking' to 'hotel reservation', but I'm not sure that this actually makes any practical difference.

Unfortunately, Forum Rule 13 prevents me giving a link to the post I get the following from. However, I have found the following communication from the Irish SOLVIT:

Dear Mr ZZZZZZ,

The German SOLVIT Centre have come back to me regarding your complaint.

Having contacted the Embassy they inform us that the right to be issued with an entry visa is derived from the family link with an EU citizen and the procedure of getting an entry visa has to conform with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law as specified in Article 5 (2) Directive 2004/38/EC.

Bearing this in mind, the Embassy explain that applicants have to prove identity, the family link and that they are joining the EU family member on the trip. The EU Directive does not grant rights for the non-EU family member to travel alone so the Embassy asked for travel plans and the purpose of the travel to determine whether the application should be considered under the Directive. The Embassy inform the German SOLVIT Centre that they did not request flight or hotel bookings, only itineraries of intended flights or hotel reservations.

Regarding the behaviour of the Embassy in tracking your wife's application, as Ireland is not part of Schengen I asked the German SOLVIT Centre for an explanation on this point. They have explained that Schengen-cooperation is based on the ground that internal borders dont exist and all States only have one external border. So you only have one control and can travel with one Schengen visa to all Schengen Member States. However, as a security precaution Schengen-coordination, allows the Member States to communicate with each other where they have doubts about an application. This cooperation is referred to in the European Visa Code Regulation 810/2009.

They explain that in your specific case some embassies had doubts about the information provided (I understand a document from SOLVIT Belgium and a refusal by the Britain embassy) and therefore the intention of the application and asked the other embassies if they had received similar correspondence. As mentioned above, this information exchange between embassies is covered by the principle of cooperation by all Schengen Member States.

As the right to freedom of movement depends on the family link and that the non-EU family member will accompany or join the European citizen, the German SOLVIT Centre believe that the embassy acted in line with EU rules.

I hope this clarifies the situation and why the German Embassy were aware of your other visa enquiries.

Kind Regards

XXXXXX

Irish SOLVIT Centre

I did encounter a clearer case of SOLVIT not helping over the evidence of travel together, but I couldn't refind it.

Some countries, e.g. Spain, can be very restrictive on the visa validity. For example, they may limit the validity to accord with an itinerary given. I don't know whether such restrictions on the length of stay are actually legal.

[Donutz]

In individual cases they may ask for proof of accomodation such as a reservation or booking, by default they cannot (if the EU and non EU spouse declare their intentions of traveling together to the memberstate in writing), you do not even have to fill in the name of the hotel or person you will be staying with (this question is marked with an * on the Schengen visa applicationform and can be skipped).

I think the handbook is quite clear on this, and it's the same I heard from experienced immigration lawyers*. In practise embassies may ask nearly every individual, claiming to doubt the couples intentions, which would be silly, but then it would be most efficient to provide them with a wortless option/reservation (easily cancelled so useless for those who indeed make a false application).

Edit: also mind that you would be fully entitled to seek accomodation after arrival (common for backpackers) or go camping in the wild (where allowed) etc. I myself rarely book or make a reservation for a hotel. So asking for a reservation of accomodation is just silly. If an embassy insists I'd advice to supply them with such worthless evidence. If the attitude of the embassy leaves a lot ti be desired, file a complain afterwards with the relevant authorities.

* other (NL) forum on immig. & visa.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Donutz

[7by7]

<snip>

I have found the following communication from the Irish SOLVIT:

<snip>

The Embassy inform the German SOLVIT Centre that they did not request flight or hotel bookings, only itineraries of intended flights or hotel reservations.

Itineraries of intended flights or hotel reservations. Not actual bookings or even actual reservations.

So Solvit seem to be saying that a letter from the OP confirming where he and his wife are going and that they are travelling together will suffice.

Edit: Not the OP, that's you, Richard! I meant Dr Chopper.

Edited October 31, 2014 by 7by7