Thailand agrees to British police help over murders

[media]

Does anyone know if they cremated the female victim yet?

The British forensic need to take their own fresh DNA from inside her.

If the Burmese sperm dna are in there and no sign of tampering its a closed case

[loonodingle]

What i would like to know is did the UK police do a forensic check on the 2 body's when the returned to the UK. This will be the deciding factor as the police in Thailand could tamper with samples.

[Jip66]

To validate DNA tests, they can obviously get a sample from the two boys. I wonder if the police still have the semen from the victims body to get a new sample from? Or just the DNA test results, which could be from somewhere else i.e. taken from the boys later on, not from the semen.

Seems like no semen no verification.

DNA samples WERE taken from both Hannah's & David's bodies upon their return to the UK, THAT is British law for any UK citizen murder abroad, period.....

[heyexile]

If this report is true, it appears there may be some divisions forming between the police and the military government as both the Nation and BP report that Somyot will "bar" investigators (in one report) and that allowing foreign investigators to become involved is "tantamount to a breach of Thailand's sovereignty" (in the other report). Pretty strong words. Wondering if Prayut and Co. have decided to break ranks with the RTP to avoid committing political suicide domestically and save what's left of Thailand's reputation internationally?

How can he break ranks with himself? Prayuth, as PM, is the Supreme Commander of Police.

His hand picked appointee. Somyot, is Police Commissioner General and is in charge of the case.

Both signed off on the "perfect investigation".

[Artisi]

Good at sniffing out porkie pies is the plod.

Indeed they are. And very good, usually, at digging out all the detail and evidence. It's the detail that often catches the criminals.

The British police won't normally allow the media or social media to influence them. They won't come with pre-decided opinions of guilt and innocence based on the wild speculations on social media sites, hearsay, and contradictory press reports allegedly based on "police sources".

I would imagine the chubby footballer with the shark tooth ring, photographed close to Hannah in a group photo on the night might be a witness they'd like to question. Along with some people on the island or those who have since moved to other parts of Thailand. The independent DNA tests will provide an answer on the 2 current suspects. Hopefully they have their own DNA samples from the victim, can confirm if there was a third sample as a Thai forensics person said on TV, and can take samples from the suspects themselves.

I'm sure the team sent will be selected very carefully.

Even Sherlock knew the way to undertake an effective investigation:

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia

[TomJoad]

My Prediction: The DNA results will match. Some will then claim the results were somehow rigged by the Thai police. The two will be convicted anyway. And so it goes..

And my prediction: The DNA results will match. The Police rigged them. The British Police will independently verify everything. The RTP will then be caught out for being the thieving, corrupt, disgusting, nasty, lying, scum they really are (yes I'm generalizing). They will also ask for the "mafia" families to supply DNA for testing. That will be refused. The suspects will "commit suicide" or simply be convicted anyway regardless of what the British Police do or say. Everyone forgets and life goes back to how it was. Welcome to Thailand - the Land of (fake) Smiles.

I've thought from the beginning that the police have the right individuals and here's why. Having lived in southern Florida for a number of years, I've seen drifters and the kinds of crimes drifters tend to commit, and this crime has had "drifter" written all over it from the beginning IMO.

As the old saying goes: a dog won't take a dump in his own backyard. I cannot easily see someone who lives on Koh Tao and makes their living there doing something like this. Maybe, but I don't think so.

[bertty]

Does anyone know if they cremated the female victim yet?

The British forensic need to take their own fresh DNA from inside her.

If the Burmese sperm dna are in there and no sign of tampering its a closed case

Go back to sleep.

[Eirene]

Very good news. Good Luck to the British Police.

Have any of you read this translation regarding the primary witness Maung Maung, friend of the accussed ? I found this on the facebook page. I find his account of the time that he found his room mates asleep very interesting as the CCTV camera that captures the runner shows the time as 5:41.

MC Ko Myo Ko RFA : Where are you now ,Ko Mg Mg ?
KMM(Ko Mg Mg) : I am now Sou....(not clear)
RFA : hello . . hello . .(over the phone)
KMM : There were polices at least two or three to guard me .But last night there was no police at Sa... bangalow .So I think I am not safe and went to embassy .
RFA : What did the ask you at pre-trail yesterday ?
KMM : They asked me how much I know about the case.I answered I know what I know and I don't know what I don't know .I don't tell anything that I am not sure and tell everything what I know surely.I think they satisfied with me and accepted what I told them are truth.
RFA : why did they order you to appear as a witness and how much do you know about the case?
KMM : Because Win and Zaw are my friends and I drank beer with them near the crime scene that night.I went to my girlfriend after I finished beer .It was around 2AM .They stayed there. When I came back to my room about 5:40 ,they were sleeping. I did not know anything about the crime that night .Even in the next morning I didn't know what was happening although I saw many polices when I went to work and thought it was not my business . Polices said my hair style is like the running man on CCTV and asked me to run in front of CCTV .They released me then saying it is not me. At 1st October ,two police came to call me .I went along with them with no worries as I didn't do any wrong. Later I become a witness as I am friends of Win and Zaw and drank beer together with them.
RFA : While you were detained , were you beaten?
KMM : Yes.I was beaten three times. And I was given only two meal , a box of milk and two pieces of chaquay in three day while I was detained in Koh Tao.
RFA : How do you think about the translator when you were detained ? Can you please tell how he is?
KMM : I told him "I know I will be killed if somebody want ,but I will tell you what I know and I can't tell what I don't known.",at the very first.So, he did not threaten me and do nothing although polices beat me.
RFA : Now Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun are arrested for the murder .How do you think of them?
KMM : I don't believe they kill .Yesterday at court too ,I did not tell anything that is not true although they confessed at first .I don't believe they kill a human .And ,if you compare them with the two victims,they are a lot weaker in everything than the victims.
RFA : How do you feel about this case when your two friends are arrested and you were also detained ?
KMM : We asked Myanmars who are not concern with the case to go away before they arrest because me and many Myanmar nationals are arrested and torture by police.It is worst if you don't have a passport ,especially to Myanmars who run when they see a police as they don't have any legal documents .I have tried hard at my work,but now nothing of my hope for my life happens.
RFA : Now what do you plan to do and do you have a contact with your family?
KMM : I have determined to go back to Myanmar.My father ,mother and family are also willing me to come back and want to see me.I will go back to my village.
RFA : Where were you born ,Ko Mg Mg?
KMM : I am from Yathay Taung ,Rakhine State.
RFA : Thank you ,Ko Mg Mg for telling us .

Edited October 18, 2014 by Eirene

[JacknDanny]

Although I welcome this new development, I fear it will lead to little or nothing.

Flashback to the Kirsty Jones case in Chiang Mai.

Scapegoat arrested and charged, police torturing witnesses, British Police called in.

Just like in Koh Tao, everybody knew who was responsible in this case ( a Chiang Mai policeman). Seen at the crime scene. Refusal of DNA samples. Crime scene compromised.

Scapegoat was a foreigner, it was proven that the DNA was from a Thai, yet the police said they still believed it was the foreigner who had planted Thai semen in the victim!!!!!!!

Read the article, see the parallels. See the extent that the Thai Police will go to defend their losing of face and corruption

Unfortunatley nothing was resolved and I fear the same with this case ( I hope I am wrong).

http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2013/10/kirsty-jones-murder-communiques-could.html

[NeilSA1]

My rating for both David Cameron and General Prayuth Chan-o-cha has just stepped up a notch, very sensible approach by both men - they have done the right thing and IMO Thailand has restored "face"

Lets see how this pans out

I agree. Give credit when credit is due. Very few people are prepared to give General Prayuth any credit regardless of what ever action he takes.

[pedro01]

Soon in the news

"2 British police in shock suicide balcony jump in Koh Tao"

[wandasloan]

Does anyone know if they cremated the female victim yet?

Yes, everyone who reads the news knows.

On the other hand, this thread illustrates fortune-telling at its worst, about what the British police WILL DO. As I write, Gen Prayut will return to Thailand in about two hours (mid-afternoon Saturday in Bangkok) and he will explain why about 95% of this thread is silly and non-operative.

So far the only people reporting this development about how British police are going to "help" are the British media. The Thai media is reporting what the British media is saying - and being quite whimsical and self-satisfied about it. This story from Cameron's spin doctors is not what most of you crime-solvers think it is. Stand by for a few hours, then recommence the comments, that's my thought.

.

Edited October 18, 2014 by wandasloan

[NCC1701A]

Ok boots on the ground. Let's see if 007 can get to the bottom of this.

[transam]

Let's all think positive to the development ..........

[JacknDanny]

My Prediction: The DNA results will match. Some will then claim the results were somehow rigged by the Thai police. The two will be convicted anyway. And so it goes..

And my prediction: The DNA results will match. The Police rigged them. The British Police will independently verify everything. The RTP will then be caught out for being the thieving, corrupt, disgusting, nasty, lying, scum they really are (yes I'm generalizing). They will also ask for the "mafia" families to supply DNA for testing. That will be refused. The suspects will "commit suicide" or simply be convicted anyway regardless of what the British Police do or say. Everyone forgets and life goes back to how it was. Welcome to Thailand - the Land of (fake) Smiles.

I've thought from the beginning that the police have the right individuals and here's why. Having lived in southern Florida for a number of years, I've seen drifters and the kinds of crimes drifters tend to commit, and this crime has had "drifter" written all over it from the beginning IMO.

As the old saying goes: a dog won't take a dump in his own backyard. I cannot easily see someone who lives on Koh Tao and makes their living there doing something like this. Maybe, but I don't think so.

Except, it would appear, the dog has had several dumps in the vicinity, over the past few years

[Artisi]

After the endless, complicated and contradictory developments and comments concerning this case, it seems to me that it all boils down to one very simple FIRST action, at this stage, for the British investigators to perform : take a DNA sample from the two Burmese guys, with enough witnesses around so that the authenticity of the samples cannot later be questioned, and then compare them with the DNA that the British investigators have taken in Britain from the body.

The only question is : did the British perform such a sampling or did the body of this poor girl go untouched after entering British soil ? I don't recall reading anywhere, clearly, that British authorities had made such a move after recovering the body.

If the DNA of the Burmese guys is compared with samples provided by the Thai police, there will be no end to suspicion of foul play.

The whole system of evidence based on DNA works on the assumption that no one tampers with the samples because the people who perform the sampling are trustworthy and eager to serve true justice. If and when the people in question become suspicious in the eyes of the public and/or the press, then the whole process amounts to nothing, and so called evidence is rightly seen as potential manipulation.

I think you will find it a matter of standard procedure that post mortems are performed with every death in the UK... Especially in the case of a crime.

No matter where it is committed, the autopsy is done and evidence is collected. That is standard procedure.

There is also an investigation opened even if it is out of their jurisdiction. British people were murdered and the police must open an investigation even if they can do nothing hands on and no matter how limited it is, evidence must be collected. That is also standard procedure.

I also read that a team of murder investigators have already been appointed weeks ago... This was mentioned in the UK press covering Hannah's funeral.

I also read at the time the repatriation of the bodies was being reported that police forensics would be taking DNA samples.

As already mentioned.... It is difficult to sanitise a body totally to remove all DNA traces... It is almost impossible to remove and replace with misleading random DNA to throw police off the scent without it showing up to the trained forensic eye. They are too well trained.

But the thing that will be a problem for the BIB if there is indeed a cover up... The bodies were released after just a few days and repatriated immediately.... At that time, police were looking for farangs if you remember?

There had been no mention about Sean McCanna or Village Headsmen's family members, or anything else that would have triggered a cover up. That came about a week after the bodies already left Thailand.

So at the time there was very little need to tamper with DNA...... But a lot happened after that. Now it is widely suspected of a cover up, and to be quite honest..... I don't think the RTP have a snowball's chance in hell of keeping it going let alone 'credible'.

I can really see a lot of people fleeing not only the island, but Thailand itself.... Including police..... and they do.

Thank you very much, WB, for this clear, extensive and re-assuring information. I am not a British national so I don't know what the standard procedure may be in that country, and I only very occasionally read the British press. So once again, thanks for your input.

One can only hope that the truth will come out fast, then.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has the creeps thinking not only about those two young tourists being savagely murdered on Koh Tao, but also about the two Burmese guys who may be innocent and perhaps deliberately framed. Now, if they are innocent and the fact is proved by reliable investigators, this country's reputation will be dealt a blow in the face like never before. And I, for one, will not be clapping my hands in joy but feel sorry for all the Thais who are not crooked, not corrupt, not invoved in mafia activities and who do not deserve to be vilified and bashed by the sad racist lot on this forum who never tire of negative generalizing about the country where they live.

WB's idea of standard procedures isn't correct. It's not standard procedure to automatically carry out a post mortem in every death. In suspicious circumstances, or where the cause of death is not readily obvious, then the police will want to check. Where the death is line with on ongoing condition, illness, and there are no signs of anything unusual the police will not request one.

There have been no reports of what examinations and tests, if any, occurred in Britain. That should become more obvious now. Hopefully they have carried out checks and have their own reports and samples available rather than relying on the information provided.

Why would the British Police be even bothered making statements as to what they are doing / done. You need to remember they aren't like the BIB mouthing off all day trying to justify, correct, second guess every statement, idea or theory they have or would like to have.

[jabis]

I'm really amazed at the reception of this news item - what the hell people - first REAL advancement to the story, and sign that the (social) media and requests/demandmends for transparency have been heard high up, and most of the comments go to Thai bashing and further conspiracy theories of how the case will evolve?

What the hell people... When WILL you be satisfied of the inquiry?

Are you looking for a specific outcome perhaps? Even if the investigators are ONLY allowed access to the evidence at hand, as it's still the only "concrete evidence" holding the case up(, and of which the sentencing will be based on), the processing of such evidence by a third party(the investigators) most certainly will moot a batch of issues already risen.

Sometimes I just don't get what people are after, but I'd like to know what the bashers are expecting of this...

What are you ranting about, ,one thing is clear, the UK police are professionals, they only need to prove one out of the numerous flaws in this case , for example the doctored cctv footage, the suspects were tortured, to mention a few.

Then we will see the outcome, that 99 % of us are waiting for !

Not to point the obvious, but my point was exactly that, and some more. Most of the comments in this thread hold no regard to the actual truth, but just to prove RTP(, and it's alleged proceedings,) is the root of all evil - no regard to justice or truth whatsoever.

I can't vouch for UK police professionalism (as I haven't witnessed even one case, not being a UK national), but I expect their investigation to be on par with other western standards, and more well equipped to analyze and interpret the evidence. As standing the aforementioned investigators will not be making a case for 'saving face', but to dig out the truth. Most of the ~400 comments suggest that the foul play will continue and there will be no resolution, eventhough it is now sanctioned that UK investigators can come in and do their respective jobs, and that stance is something that I'm against.

[Number 3]

Very good news. Good Luck to the British Police.

Have any of you read this translation regarding the primary witness Maung Maung, friend of the accussed ? I found this on the facebook page. I find his account of the time that he found his room mates asleep very interesting as the CCTV camera that captures the runner shows the time as 5:41.

MC Ko Myo Ko RFA : Where are you now ,Ko Mg Mg ?

KMM(Ko Mg Mg) : I am now Sou....(not clear)

RFA : hello . . hello . .(over the phone)

KMM : There were polices at least two or three to guard me .But last night there was no police at Sa... bangalow .So I think I am not safe and went to embassy .

RFA : What did the ask you at pre-trail yesterday ?

KMM : They asked me how much I know about the case.I answered I know what I know and I don't know what I don't know .I don't tell anything that I am not sure and tell everything what I know surely.I think they satisfied with me and accepted what I told them are truth.

RFA : why did they order you to appear as a witness and how much do you know about the case?

KMM : Because Win and Zaw are my friends and I drank beer with them near the crime scene that night.I went to my girlfriend after I finished beer .It was around 2AM .They stayed there. When I came back to my room about 5:40 ,they were sleeping. I did not know anything about the crime that night .Even in the next morning I didn't know what was happening although I saw many polices when I went to work and thought it was not my business . Polices said my hair style is like the running man on CCTV and asked me to run in front of CCTV .They released me then saying it is not me. At 1st October ,two police came to call me .I went along with them with no worries as I didn't do any wrong. Later I become a witness as I am friends of Win and Zaw and drank beer together with them.

RFA : While you were detained , were you beaten?

KMM : Yes.I was beaten three times. And I was given only two meal , a box of milk and two pieces of chaquay in three day while I was detained in Koh Tao.

RFA : How do you think about the translator when you were detained ? Can you please tell how he is?

KMM : I told him "I know I will be killed if somebody want ,but I will tell you what I know and I can't tell what I don't known.",at the very first.So, he did not threaten me and do nothing although polices beat me.

RFA : Now Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun are arrested for the murder .How do you think of them?

KMM : I don't believe they kill .Yesterday at court too ,I did not tell anything that is not true although they confessed at first .I don't believe they kill a human .And ,if you compare them with the two victims,they are a lot weaker in everything than the victims.

RFA : How do you feel about this case when your two friends are arrested and you were also detained ?

KMM : We asked Myanmars who are not concern with the case to go away before they arrest because me and many Myanmar nationals are arrested and torture by police.It is worst if you don't have a passport ,especially to Myanmars who run when they see a police as they don't have any legal documents .I have tried hard at my work,but now nothing of my hope for my life happens.

RFA : Now what do you plan to do and do you have a contact with your family?

KMM : I have determined to go back to Myanmar.My father ,mother and family are also willing me to come back and want to see me.I will go back to my village.

RFA : Where were you born ,Ko Mg Mg?

KMM : I am from Yathay Taung ,Rakhine State.

RFA : Thank you ,Ko Mg Mg for telling us .

Deplorable.

What is there left to say about the treatment of these lads.

[Graham8888]

OH YEAA

This is what we wanted all along, objective reached.

BIG thanks to everyone who made a fuss and helped get the word out.

For once its one up to the good guys.

It's not over till the fat lady sings!

She'll sing. Whether it will be the "the family did it!" song or "how corrupt was that?" song only time will tell.

It's not over till nonsod sings?!

[lildragon]

Probably not the right thread for this but I was just wondering, how has Koh Toh been this last month? Are people avoiding places like AC bar? I guess not 100% of the tourists will know (or care, unfortunately) about the case. I just can't imagine it being business as usual down there.

[allan michaud]

My rating for both David Cameron and General Prayuth Chan-o-cha has just stepped up a notch, very sensible approach by both men - they have done the right thing and IMO Thailand has restored "face"

Lets see how this pans out

You are jumping the gun a bit mate, nothing has happened yet. I will only agree with your sentiments when our (UK) investigators make their final report and we hear that the Thai's have fully cooperated. Only then can you claim that 'face' has been restored.

I hope the General will make a public statement in the Thai media to clarify this, having made disgraceful claims a couple of days back that the Brits had not summoned the Thai rep in London and in fact the Thai rep had simply gone to update them on the situation. That was clearly a bare faced lie.

[Artisi]

Proving it's not these two Burmese lads is fairly easy. Once it's proved it's not them then, hopefully the real culprits are caught....

Unlike you Franky, the British police won't decide who is guilty or innocent before actually knowing.

They already know. MI6 exists for a reason & they are not fools.

That's correct, just give Ms Moneypenny a quick call so she can get you up to speed.

[mikosan]

The British Police, particularly those from New Scotland Yard, who will probably make up the team coming here to help with the investigation, have plenty of experience in investigating murders and other major incidents overseas. They will be fully aware of the difficulties, prospective barriers and truth avoidance procedures the RTP will put in place. It's our best hope for a thorough investigation in any case and anything is probably better than we have had to date. I can think of more than one occasion when the British Police have helped with investigations in Thailand, the Tsunami is an obvious one, many were sent over to help with victim identification etc. so they are not setting a precedent here. Good luck guys, please get the the bottom of this awful incident.

[bongoz]

The only question is : did the British perform such a sampling or did the body of this poor girl go untouched after entering British soil ? I don't recall reading anywhere, clearly, that British authorities had made such a move after recovering the body.

Of course they did. They are complete pro's, just like American cops, German cops, etc. Just because they didn't inform you or anyone else in the media - they always do their job.

Knock the Brits, the Americans, the Aussies, etc. all you want. But one thing for sure, they all have well-trained professional cops.

A bit off topic but most western police forces would not be threatened by another force asking for assistance or even to be involved in a case. Their aim is to put away the bad guys...

[KunMatt]

...but they already have two suspects, matching DNA AND confessions

Let's wait and see what a decent uncorrupted police force makes of these two suspects, the real DNA results and what they do with those confessions shall we? Edited October 18, 2014 by KunMatt

[greenchair]

My Prediction: The DNA results will match. Some will then claim the results were somehow rigged by the Thai police. The two will be convicted anyway. And so it goes..

And my prediction: The DNA results will match. The Police rigged them. The British Police will independently verify everything. The RTP will then be caught out for being the thieving, corrupt, disgusting, nasty, lying, scum they really are (yes I'm generalizing). They will also ask for the "mafia" families to supply DNA for testing. That will be refused. The suspects will "commit suicide" or simply be convicted anyway regardless of what the British Police do or say. Everyone forgets and life goes back to how it was. Welcome to Thailand - the Land of (fake) Smiles.

I've thought from the beginning that the police have the right individuals and here's why. Having lived in southern Florida for a number of years, I've seen drifters and the kinds of crimes drifters tend to commit, and this crime has had "drifter" written all over it from the beginning IMO.

As the old saying goes: a dog won't take a dump in his own backyard. I cannot easily see someone who lives on Koh Tao and makes their living there doing something like this. Maybe, but I don't think so.

Well with the two Canadian girls who said they were raped on that island.

And the brave young thai lady who was raped on that island.

And the numerous pictures of female tourists obviously date drugged, lying around on the ground.

I would say somebody has been

sh--ting in their own yard for a very long time.

[kaobang]

My rating for both David Cameron and General Prayuth Chan-o-cha has just stepped up a notch, very sensible approach by both men - they have done the right thing and IMO Thailand has restored "face"

Lets see how this pans out

You are jumping the gun a bit mate, nothing has happened yet. I will only agree with your sentiments when our (UK) investigators make their final report and we hear that the Thai's have fully cooperated. Only then can you claim that 'face' has been restored.

I hope the General will make a public statement in the Thai media to clarify this, having made disgraceful claims a couple of days back that the Brits had not summoned the Thai rep in London and in fact the Thai rep had simply gone to update them on the situation. That was clearly a bare faced lie.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=720083368069391&set=vb.596740650403664&type=2&theater

[jaapfries]

OH YEAA

This is what we wanted all along, objective reached.

BIG thanks to everyone who made a fuss and helped get the word out.

For once its one up to the good guys.

It's not over till the fat lady sings!

I hope that the Brits will subject the alleged perpetrators AND the Thai Police who conducted the "interrogations" to a bona-fide Lie-Detector for starters. This will give them a very quick & accurate indication of what transpired. Then it is of the utmost importance to verify the integrity of the DNA testing process. After this, we will all know the truth.

[greenchair]

No where to run to sean.

No where to hide.

The brits are coming.

If you are innocent 100%

You will now be free of this nightmare.

But by god , if you are guilty, even 1%, you are gonna get what's coming

[kinmaew]

Bow down to Farang you must because you are incompetent and most of all lazy.