Thailand Haltingly Moves Toward Stability and Democracy

[ginjag]

And who decides "if needed"? You? Me? Them? Who decides the fate of the nation? At present it appears to be a tacitly supported dictatorship.

Attitude have we ??

A football referee --if in the opinion of him, he will decide.

Them---the Thais got themselves into the dung hole, they voted in their wisdom, and democratically elected some control freaks. So to get Thailand out of the mess we have THEM in charge who therefore decide who is right and wrong FOR the time being.

The Thais decided on the fate of the nation and this is the outcome. They chose and followed wrong. Clean up time folks, but you will not like this will you. ?? Intervention time. Up to Thais if they vote from their wallets and grey matter.

Good rant. Sums up the state of the nation...

Rant ?? I replied to wilicops--you jumped in with both feet in the door, and set up my rant.

Your one long liner was not the best of posts was it ?? not much rant ?? just same rhetoric here from you guys--hate the PM stuff.

[mojorison]

And who decides "if needed"? You? Me? Them? Who decides the fate of the nation? At present it appears to be a tacitly supported dictatorship.

Attitude have we ??

A football referee --if in the opinion of him, he will decide.

Them---the Thais got themselves into the dung hole, they voted in their wisdom, and democratically elected some control freaks. So to get Thailand out of the mess we have THEM in charge who therefore decide who is right and wrong FOR the time being.

The Thais decided on the fate of the nation and this is the outcome. They chose and followed wrong. Clean up time folks, but you will not like this will you. ?? Intervention time. Up to Thais if they vote from their wallets and grey matter.

Good rant. Sums up the state of the nation...

Rant ?? I replied to wilicops--you jumped in with both feet in the door, and set up my rant.

Your one long liner was not the best of posts was it ?? not much rant ?? just same rhetoric here from you guys--hate the interim PM stuff.

EFA

[heybruce]

Reply to Robby NZ...

I know what has been happening, BUT I also know that very little has changed.. yes, there have been numerous investigations, most simply fade away, my point is, and you seem to fail understanding it is that so far little has changed, everyday we still see corruption, we still see the RTP taking "tea" money, happened to my wife only last week, we still see jetski scams on Patong beach, we still see cops siding with scammers, do I need to go on. How many charges/convictions have we seen with the rice scams...very little...how many military officers investigated, how many high level RTP investigated.... you really need to open you eyes, and mind, to the truth, not believe what the junta wants you to believe. I truly hope things do change, in a positive direction, for ALL Thais, but so far...nope, all talk. Thailand needs to mature and get over this coup will fix the problems mentality... The military has been in control, since 1932, longer, close to 50% of the time, than any single political party... and look at Thailand's political system.... fail fail fail. The coups have never succeeded and so far neither has this one.

Since 1932, Nelly Dean ??? omg NOT yet after 5 months tell us in 3 years, yes give him 3 years and see if there are any improvements ?? If not I will be ante coup.

So in three years you might be anti-coup? I'm sure people feel better knowing this.

They'll feel much better if you explain how to remove a military government if it doesn't want to be removed. That might be an issue for you in three years, it's an issue for some people now.

[Thai at Heart]

ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:

mojorison, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:37, said:mojorison, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:37, said:

ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 14:51, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 14:51, said:

Those opposing are SUBJECT to prosecution--under Martial Law -different..... meaning the choice is there for them to use. NOT anyone no matter how they oppose.

They have powers if they so wish to implement, that is what it covers NOT your interpretation ---ANYTHING.

You are in touch too much OTT. Powers are there IF NEEDED----get real

And who decides "if needed"? You? Me? Them? Who decides the fate of the nation? At present it appears to be a tacitly supported dictatorship.

Attitude have we ??

A football referee --if in the opinion of him, he will decide.

Them---the Thais got themselves into the dung hole, they voted in their wisdom, and democratically elected some control freaks. So to get Thailand out of the mess we have THEM in charge who therefore decide who is right and wrong FOR the time being.

The Thais decided on the fate of the nation and this is the outcome. They chose and followed wrong. Clean up time folks, but you will not like this will you. ?? Intervention time. Up to Thais if they vote from their wallets and grey matter.

How can democracy advance, and become workable, if every few years these a military lead coup, that disrupts the process. Democracy is run by the people...NOT the military.

It can't. Very simple. The problem is the complete and utter failing of the legal system to be able to conduct itself without corruption and favour.

Of course if that started it would lock up yellows, reds, greens and blues with equal measure. And the yellows and greens can't have that, so Thailand must continue to bump along with this election/coup cycle.

[heybruce]

The article pretty much sums up the situation, whether you like it or not.

When I read the red-shirt comments on here, it reminds me just how backwards a lot of Thailand is in terms of civilisation. They sound more like undereducated schoolboys with a big chip on their shoulders. As time goes on, I realise this chip is because they perceive non red-shirts as 'rich elite' and they think they think someone should take that money and give it to them. They think Thaksin would do that by allowing them to take money through corruption as a matter of policy.

Get out of your hammock and go to Bangkok and watch the people sat in the buses and cars on their way to work every day. They are certainly not 'elite'. They are just educated people trying to earn money for a better life and despise those who would just steal it for themselves like the last shower in government were doing.

In 2000 90% of government spending was in Bangkok http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21595453-both-sides-stand-must-back-down-or-risk-their-countrys-disintegration-way-out. By 2012 this amount was reduced to a still ridiculous 72% http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/05/10/thailand-public-finance-management-review-report. Who was stealing from whom?

The "backwards" Thaksin supporters realized they were being neglected for the benefit of Bangkok and they voted for political parties that changed this. Even if the junta manages to make the Shinawatras disappear from Thai politics, future elections will be won by parties that promise to correct this gross imbalance in government spending. No doubt when the traditional power structure centered in Bangkok feels threatened by this there will be another coup.

Regarding the article summing up the situation: No, it gave a partial list of things Thaksin did wrong, neglected to mention anything wrong done by any other parties, presumed to know what "most thai's" want and think, and blithely assumed the junta will bring about a wonderful new democracy in spite of its crimes against democracy. What leads anyone to think that the military is interested in having a functioning democracy in Thailand?

Edited October 27, 2014 by heybruce

[MediaWatcher]

ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:42, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:42, said:

MediaWatcher, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:13, said:MediaWatcher, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:13, said:

ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:

Attitude have we ??

A football referee --if in the opinion of him, he will decide.

Them---the Thais got themselves into the dung hole, they voted in their wisdom, and democratically elected some control freaks. So to get Thailand out of the mess we have THEM in charge who therefore decide who is right and wrong FOR the time being.

The Thais decided on the fate of the nation and this is the outcome. They chose and followed wrong. Clean up time folks, but you will not like this will you. ?? Intervention time. Up to Thais if they vote from their wallets and grey matter.

How can democracy advance, and become workable, if every few years these a military lead coup, that disrupts the process. Democracy is run by the people...NOT the military.

The people do not know what democracy means----ask any Thai--they have no idea.

Have you noticed that the people decide who runs the job (democracy) and vote for bad governance.

Why in recent years have the military intervened ??? the governments had to be slung out.

Now educate the Thais to know about democracy, and we may get some better governance.

See my comment #18... the fact most Thais do not "understand" democracy is the very reason they need to "learn" by time and experience, we would also hope, lol, that a good government would set in motion a nation wide learning program, in school and media. But with the military wanting control, every few years, nothing will change...look at the earlier history, around 1954, to get a clear picture of what the military wants and does, to gain power and control.

[ginjag]

Reply to Robby NZ...

I know what has been happening, BUT I also know that very little has changed.. yes, there have been numerous investigations, most simply fade away, my point is, and you seem to fail understanding it is that so far little has changed, everyday we still see corruption, we still see the RTP taking "tea" money, happened to my wife only last week, we still see jetski scams on Patong beach, we still see cops siding with scammers, do I need to go on. How many charges/convictions have we seen with the rice scams...very little...how many military officers investigated, how many high level RTP investigated.... you really need to open you eyes, and mind, to the truth, not believe what the junta wants you to believe. I truly hope things do change, in a positive direction, for ALL Thais, but so far...nope, all talk. Thailand needs to mature and get over this coup will fix the problems mentality... The military has been in control, since 1932, longer, close to 50% of the time, than any single political party... and look at Thailand's political system.... fail fail fail. The coups have never succeeded and so far neither has this one.

Since 1932, Nelly Dean ??? omg NOT yet after 5 months tell us in 3 years, yes give him 3 years and see if there are any improvements ?? If not I will be ante coup.

So in three years you might be anti-coup? I'm sure people feel better knowing this.

They'll feel much better if you explain how to remove a military government if it doesn't want to be removed. That might be an issue for you in three years, it's an issue for some people now.

You may well be on the ball with that. but not anti coup or anti good governance, if it turns out to be wrong I will be for the opposition.

A control freak government was removed and the military can be removed as in other countries if NEEDED.

It is not my pigeon as they say only to hope that Thais will as they are at the minute going along with things. Agreed it is an issue for SOME people now. Your lot of hate for the PM is not helping much, why not oppose the wrongs and cheer the rights. All I read from this fragmentation on TVF is doom and gloom.

[tbthailand]

ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:

mojorison, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:37, said:mojorison, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:37, said:

And who decides "if needed"? You? Me? Them? Who decides the fate of the nation? At present it appears to be a tacitly supported dictatorship.

Attitude have we ??

A football referee --if in the opinion of him, he will decide.

Them---the Thais got themselves into the dung hole, they voted in their wisdom, and democratically elected some control freaks. So to get Thailand out of the mess we have THEM in charge who therefore decide who is right and wrong FOR the time being.

The Thais decided on the fate of the nation and this is the outcome. They chose and followed wrong. Clean up time folks, but you will not like this will you. ?? Intervention time. Up to Thais if they vote from their wallets and grey matter.

How can democracy advance, and become workable, if every few years these a military lead coup, that disrupts the process. Democracy is run by the people...NOT the military.

The people do not know what democracy means----ask any Thai--they have no idea.

Have you noticed that the people decide who runs the job (democracy) and vote for bad governance.

Why in recent years have the military intervened ??? the governments had to be slung out.

Now educate the Thais to know about democracy, and we may get some better governance.

educate the thais... Great excuse to withhold democracy - so well worn it's almost a Thai elite 'tradition'

they said that in '32, in '57, in '76, in .... you get the point.

[ginjag]

ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:42, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:42, said:

MediaWatcher, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:13, said:MediaWatcher, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:13, said:

ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 17:47, said:

Attitude have we ??

A football referee --if in the opinion of him, he will decide.

Them---the Thais got themselves into the dung hole, they voted in their wisdom, and democratically elected some control freaks. So to get Thailand out of the mess we have THEM in charge who therefore decide who is right and wrong FOR the time being.

The Thais decided on the fate of the nation and this is the outcome. They chose and followed wrong. Clean up time folks, but you will not like this will you. ?? Intervention time. Up to Thais if they vote from their wallets and grey matter.

How can democracy advance, and become workable, if every few years these a military lead coup, that disrupts the process. Democracy is run by the people...NOT the military.

The people do not know what democracy means----ask any Thai--they have no idea.

Have you noticed that the people decide who runs the job (democracy) and vote for bad governance.

Why in recent years have the military intervened ??? the governments had to be slung out.

Now educate the Thais to know about democracy, and we may get some better governance.

See my comment #18... the fact most Thais do not "understand" democracy is the very reason they need to "learn" by time and experience, we would also hope, lol, that a good government would set in motion a nation wide learning program, in school and media. But with the military wanting control, every few years, nothing will change...look at the earlier history, around 1954, to get a clear picture of what the military wants and does, to gain power and control.

You started off brill then went into negative mode. Please do not ask Thais to learn through the B box--UNTIL they understand---the only hope.

You say this last time the military wanted control, if so why did they not step in when it was apparent that the PTP Shin stranglehold had already started and the amnesty was pushed at. They could have easily done it earlier, so to my mind it was intervention rather than YOUR usual every x number of years

Your member suggested 1932, so lets get your control years sorted. OMG.

[ginjag]

The people do not know what democracy means----ask any Thai--they have no idea.

Have you noticed that the people decide who runs the job (democracy) and vote for bad governance.

Why in recent years have the military intervened ??? the governments had to be slung out.

Now educate the Thais to know about democracy, and we may get some better governance.

educate the thais... Great excuse to withhold democracy - so well worn it's almost a Thai elite 'tradition'

they said that in '32, in '57, in '76, in .... you get the point.

Thais need to be controlled---by military--Thaksin or whoever is there at the time, they really do not give a fig They are followers only---yellows by who ?? reds by who ??? army by who ???? do you get it. If they had their way they would not have elections they intrude into their life and their life is one day. when they awake it is a new life get it ??

If someone pays them to riot/demonstrate/take to the streets they will do it. Followers ......Sheeple. There are a few independent minded Thais but few and far between.

Edited October 27, 2014 by ginjag

[tbthailand]

The article pretty much sums up the situation, whether you like it or not.

When I read the red-shirt comments on here, it reminds me just how backwards a lot of Thailand is in terms of civilisation. They sound more like undereducated schoolboys with a big chip on their shoulders. As time goes on, I realise this chip is because they perceive non red-shirts as 'rich elite' and they think they think someone should take that money and give it to them. They think Thaksin would do that by allowing them to take money through corruption as a matter of policy.

Get out of your hammock and go to Bangkok and watch the people sat in the buses and cars on their way to work every day. They are certainly not 'elite'. They are just educated people trying to earn money for a better life and despise those who would just steal it for themselves like the last shower in government were doing.

In 2000 90% of government spending was in Bangkok http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21595453-both-sides-stand-must-back-down-or-risk-their-countrys-disintegration-way-out. By 2012 this amount was reduced to a still ridiculous 72% http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/05/10/thailand-public-finance-management-review-report. Who was stealing from whom?

The "backwards" Thaksin supporters realized they were being neglected for the benefit of Bangkok and they voted for political parties that changed this. Even if the junta manages to make the Shinawatras disappear from Thai politics, future elections will be won by parties that promise to correct this gross imbalance in government spending. No doubt when the traditional power structure centered in Bangkok feels threatened by this there will be another coup.

Regarding the article summing up the situation: No, it gave a partial list of things Thaksin did wrong, neglected to mention anything wrong done by any other parties, presumed to know what "most thai's" want and think, and blithely assumed the junta will bring about a wonderful new democracy in spite of its crimes against democracy. What leads anyone to think that the military is interested in having a functioning democracy in Thailand?

" What leads anyone to think that the military is interested in having a functioning democracy in Thailand?"

you mean, among Thais, I presume... (1) dogma and blind faith, or ... much more likely IMO, (2) they don't give a rip about a functioning democracy as long as the other side gets crushed.

The article is straight off the PDRC stage and from the 'NCPO' propaganda. From that perspective, it just ignores reality. I was particularly disgusted at the off-hand brush-off of the military repression - not even (truly) acknowledging its existence.

But is sounds like the same line my PDRC Thai friends spout. Which is of course not the same thing that my Isaan Thai friends think. Note, in Isaan, they only think about it... they aren't saying much these days. On the other hand, in the south, they don't care - they're happy.

The 'PM' has done a lot to further divide the country, ... not to reconcile anything. Of course that was never the goal, anyway. Essentially, the Thais I know on both sides understand everything just fine - they just view it from their own perspective.

[tbthailand]

The article pretty much sums up the situation, whether you like it or not.

When I read the red-shirt comments on here, it reminds me just how backwards a lot of Thailand is in terms of civilisation. They sound more like undereducated schoolboys with a big chip on their shoulders. As time goes on, I realise this chip is because they perceive non red-shirts as 'rich elite' and they think they think someone should take that money and give it to them. They think Thaksin would do that by allowing them to take money through corruption as a matter of policy.

Get out of your hammock and go to Bangkok and watch the people sat in the buses and cars on their way to work every day. They are certainly not 'elite'. They are just educated people trying to earn money for a better life and despise those who would just steal it for themselves like the last shower in government were doing.

In 2000 90% of government spending was in Bangkok http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21595453-both-sides-stand-must-back-down-or-risk-their-countrys-disintegration-way-out. By 2012 this amount was reduced to a still ridiculous 72% http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/05/10/thailand-public-finance-management-review-report. Who was stealing from whom?

The "backwards" Thaksin supporters realized they were being neglected for the benefit of Bangkok and they voted for political parties that changed this. Even if the junta manages to make the Shinawatras disappear from Thai politics, future elections will be won by parties that promise to correct this gross imbalance in government spending. No doubt when the traditional power structure centered in Bangkok feels threatened by this there will be another coup.

Regarding the article summing up the situation: No, it gave a partial list of things Thaksin did wrong, neglected to mention anything wrong done by any other parties, presumed to know what "most thai's" want and think, and blithely assumed the junta will bring about a wonderful new democracy in spite of its crimes against democracy. What leads anyone to think that the military is interested in having a functioning democracy in Thailand?

" What leads anyone to think that the military is interested in having a functioning democracy in Thailand?"

you mean, among Thais, I presume... (1) dogma and blind faith, or ... much more likely IMO, (2) they don't give a rip about a functioning democracy as long as the other side gets crushed.

The article is straight off the PDRC stage and from the 'NCPO' propaganda. From that perspective, it just ignores reality. I was particularly disgusted at the off-hand brush-off of the military repression - not even (truly) acknowledging its existence.

But is sounds like the same line my PDRC Thai friends spout. Which is of course not the same thing that my Isaan Thai friends think. Note, in Isaan, they only think about it... they aren't saying much these days. On the other hand, in the south, they don't care - they're happy.

The 'PM' has done a lot to further divide the country, ... not to reconcile anything. Of course that was never the goal, anyway. Essentially, the Thais I know on both sides understand everything just fine - they just view it from their own perspective.

[MediaWatcher]

ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 19:49, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 19:49, said:

MediaWatcher, on 27 Oct 2014 - 19:34, said:MediaWatcher, on 27 Oct 2014 - 19:34, said:

ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:42, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:42, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:42, said:ginjag, on 27 Oct 2014 - 18:42, said:

The people do not know what democracy means----ask any Thai--they have no idea.

Have you noticed that the people decide who runs the job (democracy) and vote for bad governance.

Why in recent years have the military intervened ??? the governments had to be slung out.

Now educate the Thais to know about democracy, and we may get some better governance.

See my comment #18... the fact most Thais do not "understand" democracy is the very reason they need to "learn" by time and experience, we would also hope, lol, that a good government would set in motion a nation wide learning program, in school and media. But with the military wanting control, every few years, nothing will change...look at the earlier history, around 1954, to get a clear picture of what the military wants and does, to gain power and control.

You started off brill then went into negative mode. Please do not ask Thais to learn through the B box--UNTIL they understand---the only hope.

You say this last time the military wanted control, if so why did they not step in when it was apparent that the PTP Shin stranglehold had already started and the amnesty was pushed at. They could have easily done it earlier, so to my mind it was intervention rather than YOUR usual every x number of years

Your member suggested 1932, so lets get your control years sorted. OMG.

My typo...it should be 1951, I suggest to read all about, so as to know what the military is about, and how they love power. I have no idea what you are on about re, "control years." The military stepped in, this coup, because they are in fact sided with the yellows, every one knows that, that stand off between red and yellow simply gave them the excuse. The military allows the government to govern, as long as it does NOT infringe on the powers of the military. Hell would break loose if the "people" tried to remove some of the militaries power... as I have already said.. go read up on the 1951 coup, where the military showed little respect to the people, the government or in fact the crown.

[heybruce]

Reply to Robby NZ...

I know what has been happening, BUT I also know that very little has changed.. yes, there have been numerous investigations, most simply fade away, my point is, and you seem to fail understanding it is that so far little has changed, everyday we still see corruption, we still see the RTP taking "tea" money, happened to my wife only last week, we still see jetski scams on Patong beach, we still see cops siding with scammers, do I need to go on. How many charges/convictions have we seen with the rice scams...very little...how many military officers investigated, how many high level RTP investigated.... you really need to open you eyes, and mind, to the truth, not believe what the junta wants you to believe. I truly hope things do change, in a positive direction, for ALL Thais, but so far...nope, all talk. Thailand needs to mature and get over this coup will fix the problems mentality... The military has been in control, since 1932, longer, close to 50% of the time, than any single political party... and look at Thailand's political system.... fail fail fail. The coups have never succeeded and so far neither has this one.

Since 1932, Nelly Dean ??? omg NOT yet after 5 months tell us in 3 years, yes give him 3 years and see if there are any improvements ?? If not I will be ante coup.

So in three years you might be anti-coup? I'm sure people feel better knowing this.

They'll feel much better if you explain how to remove a military government if it doesn't want to be removed. That might be an issue for you in three years, it's an issue for some people now.

You may well be on the ball with that. but not anti coup or anti good governance, if it turns out to be wrong I will be for the opposition.

A control freak government was removed and the military can be removed as in other countries if NEEDED.

It is not my pigeon as they say only to hope that Thais will as they are at the minute going along with things. Agreed it is an issue for SOME people now. Your lot of hate for the PM is not helping much, why not oppose the wrongs and cheer the rights. All I read from this fragmentation on TVF is doom and gloom.

Of course you have ignored the obvious point; when there were elections there was a peaceful method to change government. There is no peaceful method to remove a military junta that doesn't want to go.

Describing the last government as a "control freak government" is as funny as a coup leader criticizing politicians for abusing power. There is no greater abuse of power for a military officer than staging a coup, and the current government takes paranoid control freak policies to the extreme.

Those of us who oppose the junta are opposing the wrongs. We're amazed at the number of people from western democracies who celebrate the coup and support the military junta.

[ginjag]

What would TV be without jingag? Very entertaining character with a double ? key on his keyboard. Every time I read one of his posts I imagine a person with a chang beer in one hand and a tin foil hat in the other.

Sorry not a beer swiller or a whisky downer. Keep on topic and not worry about me, you guys are the real doom and gloom guys.

We want to get personal do we-------I do not mind but refuse to be banned because of a post like this. sorry mate try another.

[ginjag]

So in three years you might be anti-coup? I'm sure people feel better knowing this.

They'll feel much better if you explain how to remove a military government if it doesn't want to be removed. That might be an issue for you in three years, it's an issue for some people now.

You may well be on the ball with that. but not anti coup or anti good governance, if it turns out to be wrong I will be for the opposition.

A control freak government was removed and the military can be removed as in other countries if NEEDED.

It is not my pigeon as they say only to hope that Thais will as they are at the minute going along with things. Agreed it is an issue for SOME people now. Your lot of hate for the PM is not helping much, why not oppose the wrongs and cheer the rights. All I read from this fragmentation on TVF is doom and gloom.

Of course you have ignored the obvious point; when there were elections there was a peaceful method to change government. There is no peaceful method to remove a military junta that doesn't want to go.

Describing the last government as a "control freak government" is as funny as a coup leader criticizing politicians for abusing power. There is no greater abuse of power for a military officer than staging a coup, and the current government takes paranoid control freak policies to the extreme.

Those of us who oppose the junta are opposing the wrongs. We're amazed at the number of people from western democracies who celebrate the coup and support the military junta.

What are you trying to tell me in your post ??? something new ???

The amnesty push at 3am wasn't that a bit control freakish ??? it was that stupid it instigated the vast unrest and intervention.

Again then name every mega achievement the PTP government can claim as brilliant in the 3 years, cannot ??? then why slag off the PM in 5 months of clean up. Your absolute negative rhetoric amazes me.

[tbthailand]

So in three years you might be anti-coup? I'm sure people feel better knowing this.

They'll feel much better if you explain how to remove a military government if it doesn't want to be removed. That might be an issue for you in three years, it's an issue for some people now.

You may well be on the ball with that. but not anti coup or anti good governance, if it turns out to be wrong I will be for the opposition.

A control freak government was removed and the military can be removed as in other countries if NEEDED.

It is not my pigeon as they say only to hope that Thais will as they are at the minute going along with things. Agreed it is an issue for SOME people now. Your lot of hate for the PM is not helping much, why not oppose the wrongs and cheer the rights. All I read from this fragmentation on TVF is doom and gloom.

Of course you have ignored the obvious point; when there were elections there was a peaceful method to change government. There is no peaceful method to remove a military junta that doesn't want to go.

Describing the last government as a "control freak government" is as funny as a coup leader criticizing politicians for abusing power. There is no greater abuse of power for a military officer than staging a coup, and the current government takes paranoid control freak policies to the extreme.

Those of us who oppose the junta are opposing the wrongs. We're amazed at the number of people from western democracies who celebrate the coup and support the military junta.

What are you trying to tell me in your post ??? something new ???

The amnesty push at 3am wasn't that a bit control freakish ??? it was that stupid it instigated the vast unrest and intervention.

Again then name every mega achievement the PTP government can claim as brilliant in the 3 years, cannot ??? then why slag off the PM in 5 months of clean up. Your absolute negative rhetoric amazes me.

you are somehow amazed that people with a history and culture of democracy and self-governance would speak in 'less-than-glowing' terms about our wonderful 'NCPO' ?

I find that amazing ... to tell you the truth.

The bruce-man has patiently and consistently pointed out that not all is well in LOS.

I have mentioned that Thai history tells you exactly what is going on right now.

You seem to ignore both the current events and the historical path that brought us here. I could be wrong about that but your posts indicate a willing detachment from Thailand's reality.

[heybruce]

So in three years you might be anti-coup? I'm sure people feel better knowing this.

They'll feel much better if you explain how to remove a military government if it doesn't want to be removed. That might be an issue for you in three years, it's an issue for some people now.

You may well be on the ball with that. but not anti coup or anti good governance, if it turns out to be wrong I will be for the opposition.

A control freak government was removed and the military can be removed as in other countries if NEEDED.

It is not my pigeon as they say only to hope that Thais will as they are at the minute going along with things. Agreed it is an issue for SOME people now. Your lot of hate for the PM is not helping much, why not oppose the wrongs and cheer the rights. All I read from this fragmentation on TVF is doom and gloom.

Of course you have ignored the obvious point; when there were elections there was a peaceful method to change government. There is no peaceful method to remove a military junta that doesn't want to go.

Describing the last government as a "control freak government" is as funny as a coup leader criticizing politicians for abusing power. There is no greater abuse of power for a military officer than staging a coup, and the current government takes paranoid control freak policies to the extreme.

Those of us who oppose the junta are opposing the wrongs. We're amazed at the number of people from western democracies who celebrate the coup and support the military junta.

What are you trying to tell me in your post ??? something new ???

The amnesty push at 3am wasn't that a bit control freakish ??? it was that stupid it instigated the vast unrest and intervention.

Again then name every mega achievement the PTP government can claim as brilliant in the 3 years, cannot ??? then why slag off the PM in 5 months of clean up. Your absolute negative rhetoric amazes me.

So you think the attempt at an amnesty bill was more control freakish than martial law, censorship, bans of political gatherings, bans on calls for elections, suspending the constitution, dissolving all elected assemblies, rule by decree, etc. Not everyone agrees with you.

Two significant achievements of the PTP government--they were elected and they attempted to give the people of Thailand the chance to elect another government. Nothing that the junta does will ever match that.

You're right about me being negative. As I've explained to you before, I'm a retired from a military that doesn't stage coups, and Thailand's coup and military government disgust me. I'm also amazed and appalled at the number of people from western democracies that support this outrage.

[millwall_fan]

'American thinker' in this case appears to be an oxymoron. Next business.

[ginjag]

What are you trying to tell me in your post ??? something new ???

The amnesty push at 3am wasn't that a bit control freakish ??? it was that stupid it instigated the vast unrest and intervention.

Again then name every mega achievement the PTP government can claim as brilliant in the 3 years, cannot ??? then why slag off the PM in 5 months of clean up. Your absolute negative rhetoric amazes me.

So you think the attempt at an amnesty bill was more control freakish than martial law, censorship, bans of political gatherings, bans on calls for elections, suspending the constitution, dissolving all elected assemblies, rule by decree, etc. Not everyone agrees with you.

Two significant achievements of the PTP government--they were elected and they attempted to give the people of Thailand the chance to elect another government. Nothing that the junta does will ever match that.

You're right about me being negative. As I've explained to you before, I'm a retired from a military that doesn't stage coups, and Thailand's coup and military government disgust me. I'm also amazed and appalled at the number of people from western democracies that support this outrage.

You have skipped the question--I have asked for the last 6 months, this is. What mega achievements did the PTP give to the People in their 3 years ?????????????

Your answer 5555555 They were elected 555555555555555 AND attempted to give the people the chance to elect another government ????? 55555555555555

I am retired from a government that usually does it's best to govern and I am amazed at the number of westerners that condoned and make excuses for PTP. LIKE you who cannot give me any mega achievements of the 3 years of PTP.

You and the other propaganda merchants have NEVER answered it.

I will be non biased now and will try to answer it myself BUT I cannot, and I am being honest and serious about the question.

In your role as a military man -wasn't discipline a strong point ??? where was the discipline in the last government.

We are at this crazy stage now at trying to put the pieces together and all we are getting from you few. I don't like military interventions, and have no faith in the PM...............Any answer on the mega achievements. ??? I'll bet a poster will put a new twist on the question.

[ginjag]

What are you trying to tell me in your post ??? something new ???

The amnesty push at 3am wasn't that a bit control freakish ??? it was that stupid it instigated the vast unrest and intervention.

Again then name every mega achievement the PTP government can claim as brilliant in the 3 years, cannot ??? then why slag off the PM in 5 months of clean up. Your absolute negative rhetoric amazes me.

you are somehow amazed that people with a history and culture of democracy and self-governance would speak in 'less-than-glowing' terms about our wonderful 'NCPO' ?

I find that amazing ... to tell you the truth.

The bruce-man has patiently and consistently pointed out that not all is well in LOS.

I have mentioned that Thai history tells you exactly what is going on right now.

You seem to ignore both the current events and the historical path that brought us here. I could be wrong about that but your posts indicate a willing detachment from Thailand's reality.

Reality NOW is we are in a precarious situation, blame the history of coup's if you like and I am aware of them. I am also aware of the last 2 Shin governments were kicked into touch because of their lousy governance.

I agree with the Bruce man about not all is well here everyone knows without him telling us. I do not ignore the historical facts, the same I do not ignore the UK history, but were here at this stage, reality is we are trying to repair a torn nation and history has just been proved who tore it up. PTP.

[JOC]

.

You have skipped the question--I have asked for the last 6 months, this is. What mega achievements did the PTP give to the People in their 3 years ?????????????

Your answer 5555555 They were elected 555555555555555 AND attempted to give the people the chance to elect another government ????? 55555555555555

I am retired from a government that usually does it's best to govern and I am amazed at the number of westerners that condoned and make excuses for PTP. LIKE you who cannot give me any mega achievements of the 3 years of PTP.

You and the other propaganda merchants have NEVER answered it.

I will be non biased now and will try to answer it myself BUT I cannot, and I am being honest and serious about the question.

In your role as a military man -wasn't discipline a strong point ??? where was the discipline in the last government.

We are at this crazy stage now at trying to put the pieces together and all we are getting from you few. I don't like military interventions, and have no faith in the PM...............Any answer on the mega achievements. ??? I'll bet a poster will put a new twist on the question.

Come on guys, the PTP's mega achievement is ofcourse the rice-pledging!!

In 3 years they managed to:

Move Thailand from 1 first place to third place in world rice-exporters

Make some middlemen and millers very rich

Made a few farmers commit suicide, because they were not paid

Indept Thailand in scale 500-700 billion baht, interests to be paid by the grandchildren

Spoil the good name of Thai rice

Lying their heads off about the real numbers from the scam

All that in only 3 years!!

Despite that I am all for elections, and if the Thai people are stupid enough to re-elect PTP, then they have got the government they deserve!!

[ginjag]

.

You have skipped the question--I have asked for the last 6 months, this is. What mega achievements did the PTP give to the People in their 3 years ?????????????

Your answer 5555555 They were elected 555555555555555 AND attempted to give the people the chance to elect another government ????? 55555555555555

I am retired from a government that usually does it's best to govern and I am amazed at the number of westerners that condoned and make excuses for PTP. LIKE you who cannot give me any mega achievements of the 3 years of PTP.

You and the other propaganda merchants have NEVER answered it.

I will be non biased now and will try to answer it myself BUT I cannot, and I am being honest and serious about the question.

In your role as a military man -wasn't discipline a strong point ??? where was the discipline in the last government.

We are at this crazy stage now at trying to put the pieces together and all we are getting from you few. I don't like military interventions, and have no faith in the PM...............Any answer on the mega achievements. ??? I'll bet a poster will put a new twist on the question.

Come on guys, the PTP's mega achievement is ofcourse the rice-pledging!!

In 3 years they managed to:

Move Thailand from 1 first place to third place in world rice-exporters

Make some middlemen and millers very rich

Made a few farmers commit suicide, because they were not paid

Indept Thailand in scale 500-700 billion baht, interests to be paid by the grandchildren

Spoil the good name of Thai rice

Lying their heads off about the real numbers from the scam

All that in only 3 years!!

Despite that I am all for elections, and if the Thai people are stupid enough to re-elect PTP, then they have got the government they deserve!!

LOVE IT MATE.

[tbthailand]

What are you trying to tell me in your post ??? something new ???

The amnesty push at 3am wasn't that a bit control freakish ??? it was that stupid it instigated the vast unrest and intervention.

Again then name every mega achievement the PTP government can claim as brilliant in the 3 years, cannot ??? then why slag off the PM in 5 months of clean up. Your absolute negative rhetoric amazes me.

you are somehow amazed that people with a history and culture of democracy and self-governance would speak in 'less-than-glowing' terms about our wonderful 'NCPO' ?

I find that amazing ... to tell you the truth.

The bruce-man has patiently and consistently pointed out that not all is well in LOS.

I have mentioned that Thai history tells you exactly what is going on right now.

You seem to ignore both the current events and the historical path that brought us here. I could be wrong about that but your posts indicate a willing detachment from Thailand's reality.

Reality NOW is we are in a precarious situation, blame the history of coup's if you like and I am aware of them. I am also aware of the last 2 Shin governments were kicked into touch because of their lousy governance.

I agree with the Bruce man about not all is well here everyone knows without him telling us. I do not ignore the historical facts, the same I do not ignore the UK history, but were here at this stage, reality is we are trying to repair a torn nation and history has just been proved who tore it up. PTP.

your answer does a great job of telling the rest of us that you don't understand the events in Thai history that you personally witnessed over the last 30-plus years.

The first point is that the 'Shin governments' were not overthrown (3 times, btw) because of bad governance.

The second point is your claim that the PTP tore up the country. The PTP has been around just a few years. Even if you count the last 15 years since Thaksin really came into the foreground, it would be ludicrous logic to blame everything on Thaksin, much less to blame it on Thai voters as some here try to do. Thaksin and his political parties were a major player in Thailand for the last 15 years... but he is hardly at fault for everything that has happened. It takes two to tango

Martial law as well as Art 112 and the rules of this forum prohibit a clear discussion of Thai history and current events. Without the ability to talk openly, our discussion on the forum depends on people being informed on their own.

However, it can be mentioned that Thaksin has been around politically since the mid-90s, and a reasonably open democratic structure was in place from 1997 to 2006. On the other hand, the elite+military alliance has been actively undermining democratic movements in Thailand since the middle of the last century. If you review those events with real history books, then you can see that the current elite+military alliance hasn't done anything new in the last 9 years - they are using the same playbook which they developed in the last century.

There is nothing new about this 'intervention' and the 'PM' doesn't have any new ideas, and the justification for this 'intervention' is the same as the last half-dozen or more 'interventions'. Given that all the other 'interventions' were obviously not actually done in order to benefit the Thai people, to clean up corruption, or to establish a more democratic and just society, why would anyone believe that this 'intervention' is somehow different?

[tbthailand]

.

You have skipped the question--I have asked for the last 6 months, this is. What mega achievements did the PTP give to the People in their 3 years ?????????????

Your answer 5555555 They were elected 555555555555555 AND attempted to give the people the chance to elect another government ????? 55555555555555

I am retired from a government that usually does it's best to govern and I am amazed at the number of westerners that condoned and make excuses for PTP. LIKE you who cannot give me any mega achievements of the 3 years of PTP.

You and the other propaganda merchants have NEVER answered it.

I will be non biased now and will try to answer it myself BUT I cannot, and I am being honest and serious about the question.

In your role as a military man -wasn't discipline a strong point ??? where was the discipline in the last government.

We are at this crazy stage now at trying to put the pieces together and all we are getting from you few. I don't like military interventions, and have no faith in the PM...............Any answer on the mega achievements. ??? I'll bet a poster will put a new twist on the question.

Come on guys, the PTP's mega achievement is ofcourse the rice-pledging!!

In 3 years they managed to:

Move Thailand from 1 first place to third place in world rice-exporters

Make some middlemen and millers very rich

Made a few farmers commit suicide, because they were not paid

Indept Thailand in scale 500-700 billion baht, interests to be paid by the grandchildren

Spoil the good name of Thai rice

Lying their heads off about the real numbers from the scam

All that in only 3 years!!

Despite that I am all for elections, and if the Thai people are stupid enough to re-elect PTP, then they have got the government they deserve!!

LOVE IT MATE.

love it? He just sarcastically exposed the irrelevance of you insisting on proving the PTP's accomplishments.

Cause see, in the free world, bad governments are removed by the people not the generals.

[heybruce]

What are you trying to tell me in your post ??? something new ???

The amnesty push at 3am wasn't that a bit control freakish ??? it was that stupid it instigated the vast unrest and intervention.

Again then name every mega achievement the PTP government can claim as brilliant in the 3 years, cannot ??? then why slag off the PM in 5 months of clean up. Your absolute negative rhetoric amazes me.

So you think the attempt at an amnesty bill was more control freakish than martial law, censorship, bans of political gatherings, bans on calls for elections, suspending the constitution, dissolving all elected assemblies, rule by decree, etc. Not everyone agrees with you.

Two significant achievements of the PTP government--they were elected and they attempted to give the people of Thailand the chance to elect another government. Nothing that the junta does will ever match that.

You're right about me being negative. As I've explained to you before, I'm a retired from a military that doesn't stage coups, and Thailand's coup and military government disgust me. I'm also amazed and appalled at the number of people from western democracies that support this outrage.

You have skipped the question--I have asked for the last 6 months, this is. What mega achievements did the PTP give to the People in their 3 years ?????????????

Your answer 5555555 They were elected 555555555555555 AND attempted to give the people the chance to elect another government ????? 55555555555555

I am retired from a government that usually does it's best to govern and I am amazed at the number of westerners that condoned and make excuses for PTP. LIKE you who cannot give me any mega achievements of the 3 years of PTP.

You and the other propaganda merchants have NEVER answered it.

I will be non biased now and will try to answer it myself BUT I cannot, and I am being honest and serious about the question.

In your role as a military man -wasn't discipline a strong point ??? where was the discipline in the last government.

We are at this crazy stage now at trying to put the pieces together and all we are getting from you few. I don't like military interventions, and have no faith in the PM...............Any answer on the mega achievements. ??? I'll bet a poster will put a new twist on the question.

"What mega achievements did the PTP give to the People in their 3 years ?????????????

Your answer 5555555 They were elected 555555555555555 AND attempted to give the people the chance to elect another government ????? 55555555555555"

Are you drunk? Are you actually proud of your words? Do you think democracy is a joke?

Yes, they were elected. That is a mega-achievement the Democrats haven't come close to, and the junta won't even try for. More to the point, mega-achievements don't matter; the PTP had the right to govern granted to them by Thailand's voters, the junta has no right other than that granted by the gun. That doesn't seem to matter to you, which speaks very poorly of you. You are defending a military dictatorship ginjag, are you proud of that?

I haven't been making excuses for the PTP, I've been condemning the coup and the junta. I've explained that to you before, but you choose to ignore it.

Where was the discipline in the last government? Well they didn't tell the police to open fire on illegal protests in the face of extreme provocation. I suspect that was a source of great frustration for Suthep, he wanted an extreme reaction to the protest to justify a military coup. As it was the military was sufficiently keen on changing the government without the uncertainty of elections to take action two weeks after the courts removed Yingluck from office but didn't remove the PTP.

We are at this crazy stage now of delaying elections until certain things happen, using the time until then to write a constitution that will give the appearance of democracy while protecting select people and interests.

My only praise for the PTP was that they were elected and tried to give the people of Thailand the chance to elect a new government. That doesn't make the PTP great in government, but it makes them far superior to what Thailand has now.

Why are you defending the junta? What have they done that is worth defending? Do you really believe they will reduce corruption or create a functioning democracy? If so, what do you base this faith on? What makes you such an enthusiastic supporter of the dictatorship?

[wilcopops]

The are some posters here notable for their lack of abilities in putting forward a reasoned opinion.

One of their more amusing - or aggravating - tactics is to ask an irrelevant question and then repeatedly ask for an answer, as if the whole discussion now rotates around that one vacuous remark. The fact that they have to try to dichotomise any discussion shows that they don't really have a grasp of the range of issues involved and in an attempt to make it comprehensible to themselves, they stick to single - usually irrelevant - issues.

All they they are actually achieve is demonstrate to others how little they understand about the subject under discussion and how hopeless they are at forming a proper opinion.

Edited October 29, 2014 by wilcopops