British authorities at Koh Tao crime scene

[jdinasia]

I did not have that pleasure, back in the motherland

So who were you at the last TVF get together?

Well you only joined this Forum 2 weeks after the incident so who's to say?

I rather doubt he is in Thailand at all.

This line of discussion is quite off topic.

[BoristheBlade]

I did indeed, this subject and the murders had a great effect on me,

I want justice and I am not prepared to see innocent men take the wrap for this

Thailand is a feudalism state, whatever the official line is....ok protect the rich/elite but why destroy two innocent lives (Burmese) ...That to me is an EVIL act, worse than the murders itself.

May I also add..I find the incident with the Red Bull relative and the Policeman equally repulsive. If the RTP won't serve justice when one of there own is slain, what chance do any of us have?>

I did not have that pleasure, back in the motherland

So who were you at the last TVF get together?

Well you only joined this Forum 2 weeks after the incident so who's to say?

Edited October 28, 2014 by BoristheBlade

[JacknDanny]

Jack

I am not the topic.

The quotes show up fine on my iPhone using the app. Feel free to discuss this in the forum support section.

I won't be answering questions with the "yes/no" restrictions you put on them.

So either you are trolling or trying to derail the thread. Just as I thought. Hope to meet you one day jd.

I think it is despicable what you are doing.

2 innocent kids have been murdered. Dont forget that!

HUH??

You try to make it about me. Not the conspiracy theories.

You add a veiled threat.

You ignore that I want a trial with a vigorous defense for the accused.

I attend TVF events and organize gatherings so I am certainly meetable

I asked you 3 simple questions, that if answered would make it crystal clear. You refused.

Veiled threat? I said I hoped to meet you.

This is not about you or me but about the victims.

Its not about winning arguements, but about bringing justice for the victims.

[Rykbanlor]

I finally found the ignore preference.

Got 2 on it already.

Happy times.

[jdinasia]

Jack

I am not the topic.

The quotes show up fine on my iPhone using the app. Feel free to discuss this in the forum support section.

I won't be answering questions with the "yes/no" restrictions you put on them.

So either you are trolling or trying to derail the thread. Just as I thought. Hope to meet you one day jd.

I think it is despicable what you are doing.

2 innocent kids have been murdered. Dont forget that!

HUH??

You try to make it about me. Not the conspiracy theories.

You add a veiled threat.

You ignore that I want a trial with a vigorous defense for the accused.

I attend TVF events and organize gatherings so I am certainly meetable

I asked you 3 simple questions, that if answered would make it crystal clear. You refused.

Veiled threat? I said I hoped to meet you.

This is not about you or me but about the victims.

Its not about winning arguements, but about bringing justice for the victims.

A trial is the first step in that process.

Restricting answers to "yes/no"?? Absolutely rubbish and you know it.

I will either be doing a group ride at New Year break, or in the islands to celebrate the birth of a friend's first child. Again I am certainly meetable

[BoristheBlade]

Why off topic?

Something to hide?

I did not have that pleasure, back in the motherland

So who were you at the last TVF get together?

Well you only joined this Forum 2 weeks after the incident so who's to say?

I rather doubt he is in Thailand at all.

This line of discussion is quite off topic.

[JLCrab]

So you ... want justice and I am not prepared to see innocent men take the wrap for this.

Great. What I am waiting for is for someone in that convoluted chain who has modified or deleted airplane, telephone, or banking records to come forward and spill his or her gut or someone on the island who knows who did it to come forward with credible information and do the same. It only takes one and I would guess Rupert Murdoch would reward them handsomely for their exclusive story.

Or as the late Ben Bradlee (character) of The Washington Post said in the movie All The Presidents Men:

--godda_nit, when's somebody gonna go on the record on this story--

Edited October 28, 2014 by JLCrab

[Rykbanlor]

May have to amend that later, i've got the feeling it will become a little dull if one only preaches to the choir.

[joebrown]

To the post one above: A good lawyer in a criminal matter can make a case either for the prosecution or the defendant. Arguing one side or another on here IMHO does not mean 'support' of anything -- just arguing the merits of either side of the case.

"A good lawyer in a criminal matter can make a case either for the prosecution or the defendant."

That is absolutely correct . . . And in fact, a good prosecutor needs to be able to make the case for the defense, and a good defense attorney needs to be able to make the case for the prosecution. If a lawyer cannot see and understand the strengths and weaknesses of both sides (and there are always strengths and weaknesses on both sides) then he is not a good lawyer and will not be able to do his job properly---whether that is representing the state as prosecutor or representing the accused as a defense attorney.

"Arguing one side or another on here IMHO does not mean 'support' of anything -- just arguing the merits of either side of the case."

In theory, that should be the case. But in reality, a vast majority of those posting on both sides of the TVC debate have put on blinders and (unlike a good lawyer or independent observer) can only see one side of the case. This, among other things, is why a vast majority of the posts (although not all) are worthless and maddeningly repetitive (seriously, to both sides, how many times a day do you need to say the exact same thing on TVC? Do you really think this helps your cause?).

A good lawyer also needs to be able to separate provable fact from inference, and be able to separate reasonable inference (reasonably derived from known facts and circumstances, and which help his or her argument) from wildly speculative guesses (not derived from known facts and circumstances, or unreasonably derived, and which actually hurt his or her argument).

All of us on TVC have very few known facts to base our arguments or inferences on . . . and I mean very few.

All that being said, at the investigation stage, it is OK for investigators for the state and for the defense to follow speculative assertions to see where they lead ... but good investigators have an experienced professional sense of which speculations are worth following up on, and which are a waste of time.

Finally, a good judge will be able to see the strengths and weaknesses of both sides, determine what is fact, what is reasonable inference that should be considered, and what is speculation that should not be considered. Then a good judge will weigh all of this and decide if the prosecution has met the burden of proof.

In my opinion, there a very few good armchair lawyers, judges, investigators, or even debaters on these TVC threads (on either side), which is why those posting are confined to a handful of people shouting in an echo chamber---and why very few "outsiders" are willing to throw themselves into the mud pit of these threads. Which is a shame, because it means a lot of people with interesting and valuable opinions never even consider joining a TVC debate.

The good news is that there are very good investigators, and I hope very good lawyers, working on the case. I believe they have many known facts and circumstance to work with that TVC posters do not have, and will be able to draw professional and experienced inferences from those facts and circumstances. I believe that this is what will ultimately lead to the truth being discovered and revealed in court, one way or the other, about what happened to Hannah and David.

Very few people weigh in on the side of being opposed to trial by social media.

The people that do call for exactly what you do. An actual trial with a vigorous defense for the accused, are subject to personal attacks.

The "everyone knows exactly who did it " crowd ignore the reality that their claim is untrue and amounts to a lynch mob mentality.

If people believe it is a stitch up they should want a trial at the defense' earliest convenience.

You are dillusional if you seriously want us to picture you as the 'White Knight' standing up for the downtrodden rich landowners on KT, along with all their acolytes. There would have been a trial by now and probably an expedient lynching of the 2B guys had the RTP got a solid case against them. I say thank goodness for people with the ability to raise public awareness of this potential travesty of justice.

By the way, I can't see a rebuttal from you about the 'running man' CCTV picture of Nomsod, (or his twin brother) complete with 'the left arm',taken about the time of the murder. This photo clip is a bit grainy, but with the help of a good optometrist it clearly places him on KT and not in Bangkok. Will you dismiss this even though RTP made it public in the early stages of their 'investigation.??

[BritTim]

Very few people weigh in on the side of being opposed to trial by social media.

The people that do call for exactly what you do. An actual trial with a vigorous defense for the accused, are subject to personal attacks.

The "everyone knows exactly who did it " crowd ignore the reality that their claim is untrue and amounts to a lynch mob mentality.

If people believe it is a stitch up they should want a trial at the defense' earliest convenience.

Firstly, in an ideal world, I agree that trial by social media is undesirable. Trouble is that this is not an ideal world. Only by screaming loudly when there is a real cause for concern over the conduct of the Thai authorities can pressure be applied to ensure justice for the original victims and the (probably framed) accused. Recall that these Burmese boys had no lawyer and a Rohingya interpreter chosen by the RTP for the interrogations where they confessed. I firmly believe their civil rights would still be violated now if we had all kept quiet.

[BoristheBlade]

Do you believe these guys acted alone and raped and murdered the British?

What's your opinion of Vorsyuth Yoovidhya (Red Bull) lets have your opinion of that case......The police have the evidence, motive, eye witnesses, toxicology....yet no conviction....please explain

So you ... want justice and I am not prepared to see innocent men take the wrap for this.

Great. What I am waiting for is for someone in that convoluted chain who has modified or deleted airplane, telephone, or banking records to come forward and spill his or her gut or someone on the island who knows who did it to come forward with credible information and do the same. It only takes one and I would guess Rupert Murdoch would reward them handsomely for their exclusive story.

[thailandchilli]

I did indeed, this subject and the murders had a great effect on me,

I want justice and I am not prepared to see innocent men take the wrap for this

Thailand is a feudalism state, whatever the official line is....ok protect the rich/elite but why destroy two innocent lives (Burmese) ...That to me is an EVIL act, worse than the murders itself.

May I also add..I find the incident with the Red Bull relative and the Policeman equally repulsive. If the RTP won't serve justice when one of there own is slain, what chance do any of us have?>

I did not have that pleasure, back in the motherland

So who were you at the last TVF get together?

Well you only joined this Forum 2 weeks after the incident so who's to say?

You really should stick these guys on your ignore list. The majority of posters are with you but getting stressed with these guys is just not worth it. They lack any form of empathy or logical reasoning when faced with the evidence thats all around. Even the UK police can see this is a sham, I do notice that Jdinasia is starting to add to his statements that he wants to see a vigorous defense when (if) it goes to court! Just part of his game plan that he can quote back to when this all goes tits up for him.

[sweatalot]

The good news is that there are very good investigators, and I hope very good lawyers, working on the case. I believe they have many known facts and circumstance to work with that TVC posters do not have, and will be able to draw professional and experienced inferences from those facts and circumstances. I believe that this is what will ultimately lead to the truth being discovered and revealed in court, one way or the other, about what happened to Hannah and David.

Do not forget, it will be a Thai Court

[DarloKnight]

Can I ask this.......even IF the British found different evidence what can they do with it?

After reading and trying to educate myself with foreign laws I believe there is nothing they can do?

[BoristheBlade]

a

Edited October 28, 2014 by BoristheBlade

[JLCrab]

Do you believe these guys acted alone and raped and murdered the British?

What's your opinion of Vorsyuth Yoovidhya (Red Bull) lets have your opinion of that case......The police have the evidence, motive, eye witnesses, toxicology....yet no conviction....please explain

So you ... want justice and I am not prepared to see innocent men take the wrap for this.

Great. What I am waiting for is for someone in that convoluted chain who has modified or deleted airplane, telephone, or banking records to come forward and spill his or her gut or someone on the island who knows who did it to come forward with credible information and do the same. It only takes one and I would guess Rupert Murdoch would reward them handsomely for their exclusive story.

I leave the opinions to you. There are so many persons involved in this convoluted scenario that one will break.

Edited October 28, 2014 by JLCrab

[BoristheBlade]

Ok and what about Mr Red Bull?

Do you believe these guys acted alone and raped and murdered the British?

What's your opinion of Vorsyuth Yoovidhya (Red Bull) lets have your opinion of that case......The police have the evidence, motive, eye witnesses, toxicology....yet no conviction....please explain

So you ... want justice and I am not prepared to see innocent men take the wrap for this.

Great. What I am waiting for is for someone in that convoluted chain who has modified or deleted airplane, telephone, or banking records to come forward and spill his or her gut or someone on the island who knows who did it to come forward with credible information and do the same. It only takes one and I would guess Rupert Murdoch would reward them handsomely for their exclusive story.

I leave the opinions to you. There are so many persons involved in this convoluted scenario that one will break.

[sweatalot]

Can I ask this.......even IF the British found different evidence what can they do with it?

After reading and trying to educate myself with foreign laws I believe there is nothing they can do?

They can make it known all over the world which could lead to problems for Thailand and hit their holy tourism industry

[JLCrab]

Ok and what about Mr Red Bull?

Do you believe these guys acted alone and raped and murdered the British?

What's your opinion of Vorsyuth Yoovidhya (Red Bull) lets have your opinion of that case......The police have the evidence, motive, eye witnesses, toxicology....yet no conviction....please explain

So you ... want justice and I am not prepared to see innocent men take the wrap for this.

Great. What I am waiting for is for someone in that convoluted chain who has modified or deleted airplane, telephone, or banking records to come forward and spill his or her gut or someone on the island who knows who did it to come forward with credible information and do the same. It only takes one and I would guess Rupert Murdoch would reward them handsomely for their exclusive story.

I leave the opinions to you. There are so many persons involved in this convoluted scenario that one will break.

Like I said -- I leave the opinions to you.

[DarloKnight]

Can I ask this.......even IF the British found different evidence what can they do with it?

After reading and trying to educate myself with foreign laws I believe there is nothing they can do?

They can make it known all over the world which could lead to problems for Thailand and hit their holy tourism industry

As a tourist myself don't think it will alter my plans you may think I am being selfish but realistically I don't think it would suffer, I think the younger generations may ease off travelling to certain areas.

[BoristheBlade]

weak very weak

I leave the opinions to you. There are so many persons involved in this convoluted scenario that one will break.

So you ... want justice and I am not prepared to see innocent men take the wrap for this.

Great. What I am waiting for is for someone in that convoluted chain who has modified or deleted airplane, telephone, or banking records to come forward and spill his or her gut or someone on the island who knows who did it to come forward with credible information and do the same. It only takes one and I would guess Rupert Murdoch would reward them handsomely for their exclusive story.

Like I said -- I leave the opinions to you.

[buhi]

Can I ask this.......even IF the British found different evidence what can they do with it?

After reading and trying to educate myself with foreign laws I believe there is nothing they can do?

I think I have answered this in another comment.

Most people writing here are responding to a Thai problem, Thai justice.

Well that being an oxymoron, does not concern other civilised nations.They seek the truth and if they find it and report it, it matters not what Thailand says or does.The country's reputation is already tarnished and not by this case alone.

This has furthered emphasised how dangerous a place Thailand can be. We expats already know that, as we need to to survive.

Kicking sand at a woman sitting on a beach is not good publicity.

Falling from the fifth floor of the Nana Hotel, is not good publicity.

These are recent reports

Now all sorts of other under reported crimes in LOS are surfacing.

So what can be achieved is at best, the truth is out, but out or not, Thailand has lost credibility.

Edited October 28, 2014 by buhi

[JLCrab]

The gent asked earlier what could be a motive for the 2 in custody. I offered a hypothetical motive. That's what I have to add to this topic.

[DarloKnight]

What I really do not understand is if it is so bad and a lot of expats despise it so much (way they talk) why do they stay in Thailand?

[givenall]

Have they had access to the suspects yet, taken their own DNA samples?

I would have though that would be number one on their priority list.

The sample may have been contaminated so I hope the take addition samples from other places like under nails since there seems some struggling went on. They should not trust any evidence provided by police.

[Rykbanlor]

I certainly don't despise Thailand. Most of my friends are Thai, and progressive, upstanding and good people they are.

I do not like to see terrible injustices, and all my Thai friends hold a similarly dim view of the Police and justice shortcomings here.

This is not a reason for myself or my friends to run away, but rather to hope that exposure such as this can improve it.

[buhi]

What I really do not understand is if it is so bad and a lot of expats despise it so much (way they talk) why do they stay in Thailand?

Well I for one live and work in Thailand and have for twenty years. Have a Thai wife and son, house/home here and we live a perfectly happy life, but not at some fantasy Thai paradise resort.

Nowhere is perfect, many places I should not like to raise my family in.

Here , where we live is fine.

[BuddhistVirus]

What I really do not understand is if it is so bad and a lot of expats despise it so much (way they talk) why do they stay in Thailand?

I don't think they despise Thailand, but quite the opposite.

[joebrown]

What I really do not understand is if it is so bad and a lot of expats despise it so much (way they talk) why do they stay in Thailand?

Quite a lot have made their retirement homes here (condos), or have other commitments such as Thai wife and family. Also, don't forget there are many who work here. None of us should forget we are only here at the behest of the Thai Government, and it does worry me what might happen by way of 'reprisal' if there is a loss of face on the part of the Thai authorities, and/or the FCO issues a travel warning for British subjects in the interests of their safety and ability to access a fair justice system. Edited October 28, 2014 by joebrown

[ttthailand]

What I really do not understand is if it is so bad and a lot of expats despise it so much (way they talk) why do they stay in Thailand?

Some people are sheep and go about their lives following and never say a thing. These in my opinion deserve any grief they get in their lives. Others stand up for what they believe and help make the world a better place. No place is perfect but many of us have been in Thailand for years and now have roots here. We have seen it go from a place not too bad to being out of control. When we see our home being violated it makes us stand up and speak up. We are not sheep !

Get it ???