British authorities at Koh Tao crime scene

[IslandLover]

Tatsujin, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:20, said:Tatsujin, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:20, said:

JohnThailandJohn, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:11, said:JohnThailandJohn, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:11, said:

Tatsujin, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:08, said:Tatsujin, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:08, said:

Rykbanlor, on 27 Oct 2014 - 04:43, said:Rykbanlor, on 27 Oct 2014 - 04:43, said:

I'm looking for it mate. Trying to work at the same time, so give me a minute

If I remember correctly, it wasn't a video as such they released, but simply a grainy screengrab from the video that proves nothing and is easily alterable.

No that is what people wanted to assume because of a lawyer holding a picture of a screen grab. Police were very clear in stating there was video (not screen grabs) that amoung other things confirmed he was in Bangkok. The kid also did an interview which he said there was numerous witnesses and numerous CCTV video to support his being in Bangkok. Police also stated they interviewed him and length and received documents from the University. Bottom line it would not be normal for police anywhere to release all the details of why they cleared a suspect. The bigger question would be is why would police and other officials and other departments all conspire to protect this kid in such a high profile case that is under such a microscope ESPECIALLY when they proved they had no problem initially accusing him of the murder in the press before they eliminated him ... they did this with numerous people early on.

Yes, they stated there was a video . . . but all they released currently in public is a screengrab from that video, not the video itself.

From what I remember it "proves" (if you believe the video genuine in the first place) that he was in Bangkok on the morning of the 15th, it doesn't prove he was in Bangkok on the night of the murders however. And indeed, his own father stated he was on the island at the time of the murders initially (I think).

Not exactly. First his father stated Nomsod had left early on the morning after the murders to return to his studies in BKK, then he said he didn't know where his son was and could not contact him. Then all this was denied and statements were made that the son had been in BKK all along, as evidenced by the dodgy CCTV images, according to the family lawyer more than a week later. His father was evasive from the get go.

Edited October 27, 2014 by IslandLover

[JohnThailandJohn]

culicine, on 27 Oct 2014 - 04:49, said:

RigPig, on 27 Oct 2014 - 04:26, said:

All this talk about DNA, and I'm no scientist but it seems to me that all there really is, is a report from a lab, a couple of "print outs" if you would, from a computer, labelled as whatever, taken from "X" taken from "Y"..

So what you are REALLY relying on is the integrity of the person collecting the samples and "labelling" the printouts accordingly.

Without independent sample collection, testing and labelling there is NO WAY you could be even close to 100% certain it is what it is, without the integrity of the people involved handling the evidence (i.e. not substituting), DNA evidence is useless without it.

There has been no verification the British have independently collected DNA samples (that I have seen), the bodies were probably cleaned out and embalmed before shipping, the samples would probably have been "corrupted" beyond total integrity just as a matter of course.

The only hope therefore is that samples were sent to Singapore, before the arrests were made, this seems to have gone quiet since the first mention of it.

I suspect that DNA has been used to "fit" people for crimes before and not just in Thailand. Plant some hair, whatever.

The problem is it is so technical that to dispute it in a court of law would be all but impossible, no one would understand what the "experts" on both sides were on about. Quoting there is a 1 in 4,000,000 chance is just another statistic, and can probably be manipulated as such.

It is at the stage where the mere mention of DNA in a court of law produces a conviction (or otherwise). It is just accepted.

Now I am not saying it can't be 99.999% accurate, but that depends on a lot of factors (my understanding), especially the integrity of the samples, what the samples were and methods used.

Just my opinion....

I really wouldn't trust lab tests here. A relative was asked to interfere with lab results (have them become negative, rather for positive), so another family member could secure a job. With a positive drug result, he could not take the position. The relative refused to do this, and had no authority to do so anyway.

The DNA test itself is fine - it's how the samples are handled is the problem. I still think the original samples are held in Singapore. It would be simple enough to reswab the suspects and have another independent test done. I just see the BiB refusing that, but I'm sure the defense could demand it is redone.

The reliability of DNA is often called into question in court cases. For example in the case of the British student Meredith Kercher who was murdered in Italy, the possible contamination of the DNA samples was a big issue.

You can't get semen in the body by contamination unless you are just wanting to come up with extremely incredible and implausible scenarios. DNA is either there and matches or is not. You don't get false positives. What can happen is that you have one object come in contact with another. Think of a hair on a pillow the police touch and that hair gets on their hand and then they touch the murder weapon and transfer that hair to the weapon.

Unless the police early on had semen from the two suspect and planted inside the victim and then went through all the process of accusing others and making embarrassing themselves early on only to come back to the two they set-up, there is no way their semen could be in the victim. The labs compared blindly (they didn't know whose dna they were comparing) suspects DNA to the DNA "results" from the Semen collected early on and storied in computers. They did not have unlimited samples of the semen they were retesting every time they did another comparison. So there is no plausible way the DNA was transferred in the lab.

You can add feces, dirt or whatever else you can come up with to a semen sample and it is not going to turn that DNA into matching somebody else's DNA. The case you mentioned involved a number of issues about possible transfer given the sample they took was so tiny there was no more samples that could be tested as well as it would be expected her DNA would be on many things at the apartment which could easily be transferred. In this case we are talking about two people's Semen in the victim ... no way it accidentally got there.

For this DNA match to be wrong there is either a vast conspiracy or the police are simply lying that there ever was a match ... if either of these things are true it will come out soon given the number of people now monitoring the case and that they have competent lawyers.

[retsdon]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The relentless posting in defence of the police by JTJ, jdinasia and Baerboxer is extraordinary to say the least. So much that they cannot simply be dismissed as trolls. Why on earth would these people spend so much time defending the RTP case, when practically everyone else who has objectively considered this believes the case is corrupt. Not one person (farang or Thai) I have spoken to believes the Burmese boys carried out the crime. I can only assume these guys have a vested interest in the outcome.

Majority of us have blocked these people..on the right hand side of your screen name there's an IGNORE pref. relief...

Done

Welcome to the gang

I've just joined too. Stupidity is tolerable, but to be bombarded with mendacious nonsense is just too much I'm afraid.

[Willy Eckerslike]

There is, as many know from experience, a big issue with telling lies in Thailand. It is not regarded in the same way as other cultures regard it. Even government ministers lie and when caught say it's acceptable and even ethical. A lie will be told to save face, avoid conflict and avoid responsibility and accountability, from top to bottom and back again.

The RTP are no different, often just making it up as they go along. Therefore it's hard to put any substance to any of their claims.

But, you suggest other suspects were cleared that shouldn't have been, that these 2 are innocent. So you've made your mind up - based on what. Reports (usually poorly translated and badly written) based on comments from the RTP, together with conjecture and speculation on social media?

It has certainly been badly handled and far far from a perfect investigation. But, that unfortunately seems the case in many investigations here.

These 2 are presumed innocent right up to the time the judge makes his decision on the charges against them at the trial, if the prosecutor commits them to trial. So yes, these B2 are currently innocent, legally.

Yes Stephen, in most countries and in most circumstances you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. The 2 suspects have been charged with murder by the police, arrested and taken into custody. They are legally innocent of those charges until a court decides different. But they are not free to go until after that trial.

Presuming there's even going to be a trial, at the moment the prosecution does not have the evidence it requires and I doubt it ever will

does that mean another investigation..or.. boys sent home to burma and that's it. If they haven't got a case they'd be hard pressed to have one in a retrial.

It is not as done and dusted as some would like to think because very recently Police Chief Somyot assigned the Acting Deputy Commander of the Metropolitan Police Bureau, Major General Suwat Jaengyodsut, to take over from the local BIB as the Chief Investigator of the case..Maj Gen Suwat accompanied the Brits on their recent trip to Koh Tao................. I for one am looking forward to the next few days.......

[AGareth2]

86 and counting

full of sound and furry

signifying nothing

[Lozza]

I am tired of these jackasses.

No doubt, because I don't have huge balls JD, I am retiring from this thread.

I bid you good evening my fellow posters. If you chaps turn out to be right, JD, JTJ, I will certainly owe you great apologies.

At the moment pissing all over this forum just seems pointless.

Please don't go away, keep posting.

If we all did this, the idiots will have won.

please stay....you can block them..top right hand drop down on your screen name is ignore tab-life's so much better with them not around. They are seriously trying to have the subject LOCKED but we won't let that happen...jerks

[thailandchilli]

I getting more inclined to believe that this is not even going to reach court and charges will be dropped. Latest article just published from the Bangkok PXXt (not allowed to link to them) says the prosecutors have still not decided whether to charge them and they are also asking the British authorities for proof that the mobile phone belonged to David.

So if this happens which I hope it will, we then still have the real killers free and walking around on Koh Tao. For those that think I am Thai bashing here, I am not. But a BOYCOTT of Koh Tao is definitely required and needs to be marketed well internationally.

[AGareth2]

I getting more inclined to believe that this is not even going to reach court and charges will be dropped. Latest article just published from the Bangkok PXXt (not allowed to link to them) says the prosecutors have still not decided whether to charge them and they are also asking the British authorities for proof that the mobile phone belonged to David.

So if this happens which I hope it will, we then still have the real killers free and walking around on Koh Tao. For those that think I am Thai bashing here, I am not. But a BOYCOTT of Koh Tao is definitely required and needs to be marketed well internationally.

worrying!

[smokie36]

The relentless posting in defence of the police by JTJ, jdinasia and Baerboxer is extraordinary to say the least. So much that they cannot simply be dismissed as trolls. Why on earth would these people spend so much time defending the RTP case, when practically everyone else who has objectively considered this believes the case is corrupt. Not one person (farang or Thai) I have spoken to believes the Burmese boys carried out the crime. I can only assume these guys have a vested interest in the outcome.

Majority of us have blocked these people..on the right hand side of your screen name there's an IGNORE pref. relief...

Why go through the trouble of blocking when CSI Facebook encourages ignoring facts and coming up with and spreading unfounded theories.

That's absurd when the Thai police have imprisoned two Burmese kids and declared the case solved when they can't get the prosecutors to proceed with a case against them despite this seemingly watertight DNA from semen.

[iReason]

The relentless posting in defence of the police by JTJ, jdinasia and Baerboxer is extraordinary to say the least. So much that they cannot simply be dismissed as trolls. Why on earth would these people spend so much time defending the RTP case, when practically everyone else who has objectively considered this believes the case is corrupt. Not one person (farang or Thai) I have spoken to believes the Burmese boys carried out the crime. I can only assume these guys have a vested interest in the outcome.

Majority of us have blocked these people..on the right hand side of your screen name there's an IGNORE pref. relief...

Why go through the trouble of blocking when CSI Facebook encourages ignoring facts and coming up with and spreading unfounded theories.

Thanks for popping in!

I knew there was another Major Troll I had to IGNORE.

But the name had escaped me.

Thanks for reminding me!

[Willy Eckerslike]

86 and counting

full of sound and furry

signifying nothing

OK I'll bite........mai khao chai.....please explain

[Lozza]

Guess we can sort of get a handle or rough idea why Mon and an off duty police officer would be chasing and trying to set up Sean. Mon had the alleged altercation with Hannah And perhaps his police friend helped him save face by providing the gun.. Doesn't seem out of the question.

Just thought, mon would have access to many guns maybe the gun was registered to RTP hence the hoe having to be used to recover something. It was a frenzied attack and no time for premeditation.

The gun theory was discovered by an Israeli Forensic team. They have marked out areas where blood and tissue were and come to this conclusion after many hours scientifically setting the scene.

I see that none of this was investigated in the Koh Tao crime scene....sense tells you that the area should have been closed off for days to allow investigators to collect evidence. This is why they didn't call a forensic team to the scene. This is my opinion only.

They also suggest that hannah was sitting when hit and slumped back to the position she was found in. I agree with their finding. More plausible than BS we are being fed..

Face.........bring it on.

[jabis]

I haven't ignored anyone - I try to think the mumbo-jumbo as an entertaining factor inbetween the serious posts. They're like cheerleaders distracting from the play in different sports - just not as good looking

[thailandchilli]

I haven't ignored anyone - I try to think the mumbo-jumbo as an entertaining factor inbetween the serious posts. They're like cheerleaders distracting from the play in different sports - just not as good looking

Yes but even when you ignore them you can leave the settings so it still shows the hidden post tab, so you know if they've made a post each time, then its just a matter if you want to see it or not, press the tab and it opens. Thats what I've been doing when I feel I need another belly laugh

[Lozza]

.... This despite the fact that police early on showed they were not scared or intimidated by the headsman family. Like other early suspects they came out publicly stating the headsman's family were involved but like other earlier suspects, they were ruled out.

I dont know how you come to this conclusion, no DNA tests and intrest dropped and not mentioned again after a change of plod.

At least in part ruled out because the son was not on the island at the time of the murders.

are you for real? he is seen on the CCTV video footage running, after the time of the murders. did you miss that one????

AND just released, again, video of him shaking hands with david, that dead giveaway walk seals it. How the hell are they going to get out of this..impossible.

We have evidence that nomsod WAS in Koh Tao at 1 am.....locals have been saying this all along.

[RigPig]

culicine, on 27 Oct 2014 - 04:49, said:

RigPig, on 27 Oct 2014 - 04:26, said:

All this talk about DNA, and I'm no scientist but it seems to me that all there really is, is a report from a lab, a couple of "print outs" if you would, from a computer, labelled as whatever, taken from "X" taken from "Y"..

So what you are REALLY relying on is the integrity of the person collecting the samples and "labelling" the printouts accordingly.

Without independent sample collection, testing and labelling there is NO WAY you could be even close to 100% certain it is what it is, without the integrity of the people involved handling the evidence (i.e. not substituting), DNA evidence is useless without it.

There has been no verification the British have independently collected DNA samples (that I have seen), the bodies were probably cleaned out and embalmed before shipping, the samples would probably have been "corrupted" beyond total integrity just as a matter of course.

The only hope therefore is that samples were sent to Singapore, before the arrests were made, this seems to have gone quiet since the first mention of it.

I suspect that DNA has been used to "fit" people for crimes before and not just in Thailand. Plant some hair, whatever.

The problem is it is so technical that to dispute it in a court of law would be all but impossible, no one would understand what the "experts" on both sides were on about. Quoting there is a 1 in 4,000,000 chance is just another statistic, and can probably be manipulated as such.

It is at the stage where the mere mention of DNA in a court of law produces a conviction (or otherwise). It is just accepted.

Now I am not saying it can't be 99.999% accurate, but that depends on a lot of factors (my understanding), especially the integrity of the samples, what the samples were and methods used.

Just my opinion....

I really wouldn't trust lab tests here. A relative was asked to interfere with lab results (have them become negative, rather for positive), so another family member could secure a job. With a positive drug result, he could not take the position. The relative refused to do this, and had no authority to do so anyway.

The DNA test itself is fine - it's how the samples are handled is the problem. I still think the original samples are held in Singapore. It would be simple enough to reswab the suspects and have another independent test done. I just see the BiB refusing that, but I'm sure the defense could demand it is redone.

The reliability of DNA is often called into question in court cases. For example in the case of the British student Meredith Kercher who was murdered in Italy, the possible contamination of the DNA samples was a big issue.

You can't get semen in the body by contamination unless you are just wanting to come up with extremely incredible and implausible scenarios. DNA is either there and matches or is not. You don't get false positives. What can happen is that you have one object come in contact with another. Think of a hair on a pillow the police touch and that hair gets on their hand and then they touch the murder weapon and transfer that hair to the weapon.

Unless the police early on had semen from the two suspect and planted inside the victim and then went through all the process of accusing others and making embarrassing themselves early on only to come back to the two they set-up, there is no way their semen could be in the victim. The labs compared blindly (they didn't know whose dna they were comparing) suspects DNA to the DNA "results" from the Semen collected early on and storied in computers. They did not have unlimited samples of the semen they were retesting every time they did another comparison. So there is no plausible way the DNA was transferred in the lab.

You can add feces, dirt or whatever else you can come up with to a semen sample and it is not going to turn that DNA into matching somebody else's DNA. The case you mentioned involved a number of issues about possible transfer given the sample they took was so tiny there was no more samples that could be tested as well as it would be expected her DNA would be on many things at the apartment which could easily be transferred. In this case we are talking about two people's Semen in the victim ... no way it accidentally got there.

For this DNA match to be wrong there is either a vast conspiracy or the police are simply lying that there ever was a match ... if either of these things are true it will come out soon given the number of people now monitoring the case and that they have competent lawyers.

John I actually agree with you BUT.....

What this is all about, from both the Farang and Thai perspective is lack of trust in the BIB. Simple...

What you say is correct, BUT no one trusts the integrety of those that took the evidence. No one (I believe) knows weather the DNA sample taken for evidence was sent to Singapore or if it came from a Thai lab. Changing the labels on a computer for a DNA match would be sooooo easy, why well there is plenty of speculation about that.

I have had dealings with the Thai police and it didn't matter where the blame should have been I know where it fell, and that is wrong. I don't want to go into specifics on this forum and if you want them feel free to PM me, I will be happy to oblige.

The REAL issue here is the lack of trust in the BIB, if the Myanmar guys did it I hope they hang, but I would hate for that to happen if it didn't, and I have to admit I am leaning the other way, it doesn't make sense (not that everything does), but have you ever been confronted by a Thai man that has last face, or even seen it, it is scary, there is no reasoning, it is just full on.

I don't see anything wrong with an open and fair enquiry into this and I think that that is all everyone wants.

[IslandLover]

BoristheBlade, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:50, said:

JTJ

Toxicology would indicate the presence of gun power/ bullet fragments in Hanna's wounds, also Date Rape Drugs in her blood..........

BoristheBlade, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:43, said:

WOW, the smoking gun....quite literally!

Mr Yim, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:37, said:

JTJ and JDinasia, if the latest post from CSI LA is indeed true, your faith in the RTP is going to look very stupid.

It's curious that an RTP spokesperson announced early on in the investigation that they had the results of the toxicology tests on the victims but they wouldn't be released publicly "out of respect for the victims' familes". I wonder how this should be interpreted? Was there evidence of drugs, or indeed gunshot wounds?

[taony]

If people would just stop quoting the trolls, in all their aliases, we wouldn't even need to know they exist anymore!

[CapFarmer]

If people would just stop quoting the trolls, in all their aliases, we wouldn't even need to know they exist anymore!

I appreciate the opposing point of view, but I wish they would quit mindlessly repeating and repeating and repeating nonsense.

[thailandchilli]

BoristheBlade, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:50, said:

JTJ

Toxicology would indicate the presence of gun power/ bullet fragments in Hanna's wounds, also Date Rape Drugs in her blood..........

BoristheBlade, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:43, said:

WOW, the smoking gun....quite literally!

Mr Yim, on 27 Oct 2014 - 06:37, said:

JTJ and JDinasia, if the latest post from CSI LA is indeed true, your faith in the RTP is going to look very stupid.

It's curious that an RTP spokesperson announced early on in the investigation that they had the results of the toxicology tests on the victims but they wouldn't be released publicly "out of respect for the victims' familes". I wonder how this should be interpreted? Was there evidence of drugs, or indeed gunshot wounds?

That same RTP spokesman also said they would not reveal if they found illegal drugs in Hannah for respect to the families. CSI brought up the theory that she may have been victim to a sedative, date rape like drug, very possible

[Lozza]

We have seen the CCTV footage from Milks apartment that morning. I wonder if there is some of him entering the building the previous night?

Now that the boy's have legal representation all the blanks will be covered CCTV forensically examined.

You won't see them standing on their soap boxes.

You have seen a poorly doctored picture of apparent CCTV footage. Not any actual CCTV footage.

It was allegedly from the UNi only it was uncovered that this was a lie it was actually his apartment building.

This is Thailand...have you ever seen a condo building or uni where there are NO people, apart from our nomsod @ 9.24 am.

The CCTV show him walking next to a timber table and chairs. The problem with that shot is, the table and chairs were removed months before.

This was confirmed by the condo admin office.

[thailandchilli]

We have seen the CCTV footage from Milks apartment that morning. I wonder if there is some of him entering the building the previous night?

Now that the boy's have legal representation all the blanks will be covered CCTV forensically examined.

You won't see them standing on their soap boxes.

You have seen a poorly doctored picture of apparent CCTV footage. Not any actual CCTV footage.

It was allegedly from the UNi only it was uncovered that this was a lie it was actually his apartment building.

This is Thailand...have you ever seen a condo building or uni where there are NO people, apart from our nomsod @ 9.24 am.

The CCTV show him walking next to a timber table and chairs. The problem with that shot is, the table and chairs were removed months before.

This was confirmed by the condo admin office.

Yes I saw the pics of that, the table and chairs are no longer there and yet Nomsod seems to have a time machine that take him back to the time when they were there, the time machine was also able to doctor the date stamp

Edited October 27, 2014 by thailandchilli

[zoza]

We have seen the CCTV footage from Milks apartment that morning. I wonder if there is some of him entering the building the previous night?

Now that the boy's have legal representation all the blanks will be covered CCTV forensically examined.

You won't see them standing on their soap boxes.

You will see it in court. Without the insane claims of the conspiracy theorists.

And again with the irony. I can't breath I am laughing so hard.

Keep laughing. The very best thing for the accused is a vigorous defense. They should test every reasonable theory. Then when their clients are likely convicted they can say that they tried!

Convicted based on what?

Dodgy DNA results

Bought / threatened witnesses

Cctv which does not reveal anything

Planted phone

Would love to hear what evidence they have ?

Before you answer...... I know, it will come out in court.

It will come out in court. The suspects have defense lawyers . They can contest every aspect of the prosecution's case.

DNA from semen will very likely seal the fates of the killers.

jdinasia and his workmates are avoiding mentioning some inconsistencies the way the strength of evidence

is rated in this case.

the headmans son is implicated after being seen on cctv footage collected by the police on koh tao (who know him well) mon is also implicated by cctv and other evidence.

the headmans son is cleared by cctv that if real place him in Bangkok around 5/6 hours after the murders

we are told that there is other evidence.

why was dna not asked for and tested to clear up this once and for all.

now jdinasia has come out with" DNA in sperm will very likely seal the fates of the killers"

well as pointed out in other posts sperm proves sex and that's about all, so like most of the koh tao defence

team another own goal.

if you are getting paid whatever your getting is to much.

[Neeranam]

dude, you need to tell the British coppers this.

We have seen the CCTV footage from Milks apartment that morning. I wonder if there is some of him entering the building the previous night?

Now that the boy's have legal representation all the blanks will be covered CCTV forensically examined.

You won't see them standing on their soap boxes.

You have seen a poorly doctored picture of apparent CCTV footage. Not any actual CCTV footage.
It was allegedly from the UNi only it was uncovered that this was a lie it was actually his apartment building.

This is Thailand...have you ever seen a condo building or uni where there are NO people, apart from our nomsod @ 9.24 am.

The CCTV show him walking next to a timber table and chairs. The problem with that shot is, the table and chairs were removed months before.

This was confirmed by the condo admin office.

[Gweiloman]

This is Thailand...have you ever seen a condo building or uni where there are NO people, apart from our nomsod @ 9.24 am.

The CCTV show him walking next to a timber table and chairs. The problem with that shot is, the table and chairs were removed months before.

This was confirmed by the condo admin office.

If this is indeed true, why hasn't the RTP questioned him or his lawyer again? Or for that matter, the condo administrators / managers?

This is huge if true.

[MikeWill]

Remember the condom found at the crime scene with the mixed semen inside it, and nothing on the outside.

It's just my guess, but it probably was used to plant the semen inside the Hanna's body.

[ffaarraanngg]

This is Thailand...have you ever seen a condo building or uni where there are NO people, apart from our nomsod @ 9.24 am.

The CCTV show him walking next to a timber table and chairs. The problem with that shot is, the table and chairs were removed months before.

This was confirmed by the condo admin office.

If this is indeed true, why hasn't the RTP questioned him or his lawyer again? Or for that matter, the condo administrators / managers?

This is huge if true.

Because its a blatant cover up.

I wonder If JDinasai and others would be happy if a similar investigation involved their family who had just been brutally raped and murdered.

[Lozza]

I fully concur this forum is a much better read when the ignore button is put to good use. Also highlights just how much these trolls post.

Do you have to have a work permit to be a troll. Do they get paid by post or what.

You can ignore signatures too.! I still can't find the ignore button though.

Go up to the top right hand corner and click on the tab in your screen name, there you will see IGNORE pref...type in name you wish to block JD JTJ don't forget SAVE....

[Anthony5]

We have seen the CCTV footage from Milks apartment that morning. I wonder if there is some of him entering the building the previous night?

Now that the boy's have legal representation all the blanks will be covered CCTV forensically examined.

You won't see them standing on their soap boxes.

You have seen a poorly doctored picture of apparent CCTV footage. Not any actual CCTV footage.

It was allegedly from the UNi only it was uncovered that this was a lie it was actually his apartment building.

This is Thailand...have you ever seen a condo building or uni where there are NO people, apart from our nomsod @ 9.24 am.

The CCTV show him walking next to a timber table and chairs. The problem with that shot is, the table and chairs were removed months before.

This was confirmed by the condo admin office.

Of course you have a link to that confirmation, other than a FB post from CSI LA.

Please post the link in the space below my post.

[retsdon]

culicine, on 27 Oct 2014 - 04:49, said:

RigPig, on 27 Oct 2014 - 04:26, said:

All this talk about DNA, and I'm no scientist but it seems to me that all there really is, is a report from a lab, a couple of "print outs" if you would, from a computer, labelled as whatever, taken from "X" taken from "Y"..

So what you are REALLY relying on is the integrity of the person collecting the samples and "labelling" the printouts accordingly.

Without independent sample collection, testing and labelling there is NO WAY you could be even close to 100% certain it is what it is, without the integrity of the people involved handling the evidence (i.e. not mmsubstituting), DNA evidence is useless without it.

There has been no verification the British have independently collected DNA samples (that I have seen), the bodies were probably cleaned out and embalmed before shipping, the samples would probably have been "corrupted" beyond total integrity just as a matter of course.

The only hope therefore is that samples were sent to Singapore, before the arrests were made, this seems to have gone quiet since the first mention of it.

I suspect that DNA has been used to "fit" people for crimes before and not just in Thailand. Plant some hair, whatever.

The problem is it is so technical that to dispute it in a court of law would be all but impossible, no one would understand what the "experts" on both sides were on about. Quoting there is a 1 in 4,000,000 chance is just another statistic, and can probably be manipulated as such.

It is at the stage where the mere mention of DNA in a court of law produces a conviction (or otherwise). It is just accepted.

Now I am not saying it can't be 99.999% accurate, but that depends on a lot of factors (my understanding), especially the integrity of the samples, what the samples were and methods used.

Just my opinion....

I really wouldn't trust lab tests here. A relative was asked to interfere with lab results (have them become negative, rather for positive), so another family member could secure a job. With a positive drug result, he could not take the position. The relative refused to do this, and had no authority to do so anyway.

The DNA test itself is fine - it's how the samples are handled is the problem. I still think the original samples are held in Singapore. It would be simple enough to reswab the suspects and have another independent test done. I just see the BiB refusing that, but I'm sure the defense could demand it is redone.

The reliability of DNA is often called into question in

You can't get semen in the body by contamination unless you are just wanting to come up with extremely incredible and implausible scenarios. DNA is either there and matches or is not. You don't get false positives. What can happen is that you have one object come in contact with another. Think of a hair on a pillow the police touch and that hair gets on their hand and then they touch the murder weapon and transfer that hair to the weapon.

Unless the police early on had semen from the two suspect and planted inside the victim and then went through all the process of accusing others and making embarrassing themselves early on only to come back to the two they set-up, there is no way their semen could be in the victim. The labs compared blindly (they didn't know whose dna they were comparing) suspects DNA to the DNA "results" from the Semen collected early on and storied in computers. They did not have unlimited samples of the semen they were retesting every time they did another comparison. So there is no plausible way the DNA was transferred in the lab.

You can add feces, dirt or whatever else you can come up with to a semen sample and it is not going to turn that DNA into matching somebody else's DNA. The case you mentioned involved a number of issues about possible transfer given the sample they took was so tiny there was no more samples that could be tested as well as it would be expected her DNA would be on many things at the apartment which could easily be transferred. In this case we are talking about two people's Semen in the victim ... no way it accidentally got there.

For this DNA match to be wrong there is either a vast conspiracy or the police are simply lying that there ever was a match ... if either of these things are true it will come out soon given the number of people now monitoring the case and that they have competent lawyers.

"For this DNA match to be wrong there is either a vast conspiracy or the police are simply lying that there ever was a match ."

Not so. DNA matching is dependent firstly on the quality of the sample. And the quality of the sample is dependent on a number of factors, including the length of time before it was taken, the purity of it (which is a major factor in cases of mixed DNA - as in rape by multiple perps). - and so on and so forth.

Then the accuracy of the match is subject to interpretation - which is a major factor if the match is only partial. It is quite possible that the police got a partial match report, and then ran with it. - in other words used coercive interrogation to elicit confessions, believing that the two combined would be enough to secure a conviction.

Now that the confessions - obtained in a manner which would be utterly inadmissible in any civilized court - have now been retracted, they're left with only very uncertain DNA fingerprints to base their case on. And that's why the state prosecution service seems unwilling to proceed and keeps sending the case back for further evidence. The problem is that with all this grandstanding in front of the cameras and over-confident assertions, they've now painted themselves into a corner from which no exit is apparent. But maybe the arrival of the British police can somehow give them an out.

Of course, all this is purely speculative, but the fact that the prosecution seem so unwilling to proceed with this 'watertight' case is a bit of a red flag that things are not as rosy as the RTP would like us to believe. And the above scenario would fit the facts.